Now on bbc news, its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hard tour, im stephen sackur. Brexit represents a political gamble played for the highest of steaks. If it leaves the eu without a deal, there will be significant economic disruption. Even the most ardent brexit years acknowledge that. But they believe the potential rewards justify the risks. Its a calculated that on britains future which comes naturally to my guest today. Stuart wheeler, the successful businessman and lifelong gambler who backed commitment to brexit with plenty of his own cash. As his money given him undue influence over britains future . Stuart wheeler, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Would be fair to characterise you as a lifelong risk taker . Yes, it would. And what motivated you, from a very early age, to want to take so many risks . The first risk i took, i was very, very young, was at a point to point. Is that a horse race . A horse race. I backed the second, one shilling of even money and it obliged so that was my start of gambling. How old we re was my start of gambling. How old were you . About eight or nine. Eight oi were you . About eight or nine. Eight or nine. And from that point on, it a lwa ys or nine. And from that point on, it always seemed, you had, an obsession, would you say with gambling . Yes, i was interested in gambling . Yes, i was interested in gambling but also odds and probabilities as well which are very much connected with gambling, obviously. I suppose you are lucky in the sense that you were raised by afamily in the sense that you were raised by a family who were sufficiently well to do. That you always had access to money. You were well enough off to be able to indulge your appetite for risks. We wont terribly well off. Even people in the lowest income strata are well enough to do a little bit of gambling, a Lottery Ticket or some on. I was so rich that i could gamble when other people couldnt, that wouldnt be fair. You mentioned lotteries. It seems your entire life has been to a certain extent has been this combination of calculated risk and chance and the greatest chance of all that you experienced was the fa ct all that you experienced was the fact that as an unwanted baby, an orphan, you were adopted by a family who both loved you but also had the economic means to give you a life of privilege. I was actually very lucky the way i was adopted. My. Div mother to be went to the adoptive home with her sister and my adoptive mother to be found a very good looking baby, obviously not me and said, how about that one . Her sister said, how about that one . Her sister said yes, but this other one who is making the real nuisance of himself might bea making the real nuisance of himself might be a bit more interesting. That was me and thats how i was chosen. It was very bit bringing, wasnt it . Your parents were not fastly wealthy but they were well to do and they also didnt really have jobs. They seemed to have, maybe not decadent, but they enjoyed their lives. Your father in particular, spent most of his time riding, shooting. Unless you cant, which is very enough to count it, he fought throughout the whole of the first world war, its the onlyjob we ever had. He once said to me, i can quite see everyone should do some work their money but i hope that doesnt happen when im alive. You, in your20 that doesnt happen when im alive. You, in your 20 and 30s, had of jobs. You are a barrister, you worked in the city as a banker, couldnt settle at any of it and throughout all this time, your main love, your vocation if i can put it that way, seems to have been playing cards, going to the racetrack and gambling. There is some truth in that and i was nailed barrister and a failed chap in the city as well. In the end, i couldnt get a job so when are friend of mine suggested starting the index, ijumped at it because i had no other choice. We we re because i had no other choice. We were an addict, do you think . gambling were an addict, do you think . L gambling addict . I dont think i was an addict in the sense that i mightve lost all my money ruined my life. I like gambling but i wouldnt quite say i was an addict. But you nearly didnt lose all your money. There are various points where you describe having to go to, for example, rich club since they were in the 50s and early 60s because you needed to win money. You were very good bridge. At one case i was so short of money, i hated having to do it, i went to a friend of mine and said could i have some money if i really needed . Said could i have some money if i really needed . Gave said could i have some money if i really needed . Gave me a cheque for £1000 which was a huge amount at that time and i took it into the bridge club and i knew i would have to cash that check unless i won £600 which was a Staggering Amount in those days to win in one night. I did win it and never had to cash the check but i was eternally grateful to him. Youve written this memoir which is full of fascinating stories of this period of your life. My autobiography, yes. Winning against the odds, its called. I wonder if you think very hard about how many different times you could have lost, and actually lost everything. Thats quite true. During the 1987 stock market crash, my company was in a terrible mess. Your company, ig, its based upon spread betting which was a sort of idea that you did quite a lot to make popular in the 70s and 805. Quite a lot to make popular in the 70s and 80s. It hasnt been very well understood. Ig took off but then,in well understood. Ig took off but then, in the late 19805 and again a little later on, you had periods where ig nearly folded. We were very, very lucky in that 87 think. Lots of our clients, they lost more money than they thought they ever could. The dow jones money than they thought they ever could. The dowjones index had never even could. The dowjones index had never eve n fa lle n could. The dowjones index had never even fallen 100 points before and on the black monday if you want to call it that, fell 500 points. 0ur poor clients when a terrible mess and selected solicitors solicitors would write to me to say, we dont have to pay them because they are gambling debts and that would have been true but a thing called the Financial Services act came to our rescue and was brought into effect in bits and the bits which made these debts enforceable had just been brought into effect when the crash took place. Let us now fast forward because you survive to the financial crash of 87. Ig became really very success. You, in the end, walked away with tens of million5 end, walked away with tens of millions of pounds when ig floated and went public and you made a killing, you made a lot of money. It seem5 killing, you made a lot of money. It seems to me you then became rather bored. Thats when your political instinct 5tarted bored. Thats when your political instinct started to twitch and thats when you decided to use your money to wield 5ome thats when you decided to use your money to wield some political influence. Its not so much that i got bored, im totally non technological and i realised that i was the ceo of ig index, i was attending meetings are technological things with the main things di5cussed so i couldnt understand a word so i made an instantaneous decision to retire a5 word so i made an instantaneous decision to retire as chief executive so then i completely wrongly lacked confidence in my su cce55e5 wrongly lacked confidence in my successes and sold all my shares which was a huge mistake because they went up 15 times very quickly. Except you still made tens of million5 except you still made tens of millions of pounds. Thats true, but it would be better if youd made hundreds of millions of pounds. Lets get to the way you use the money and politics. He became a donor to the conservative party. Relatively small donations to start with. But then by 2001, you decided to make the biggest political donation in british history, £5 million. I think i may have shared that distinction with one of the getty5. That distinction with one of the gettys. 0k, that distinction with one of the gettys. Ok, the point is you had become hugely influential thanks to money. You think on reflection that i5a money. You think on reflection that is a healthy thing for a democracy . Doi is a healthy thing for a democracy . Do i think its healthy quest to mark the people with wealth should have any influence . I dont mean to be rude but i think its absurd to think whatever the Political Party or charity or anything else which receives an enormous amount of money from somebody shouldnt be willing to give the more of the hearing on somebody who gave them £5. Life doesnt work like that. Here we are, weve di5cussed your personality in your predilection5. You are a gambler, you developed a company which is a gambling operation. Gambling, frankly, i5 which is a gambling operation. Gambling, frankly, is a severe social problem in the uk today youve made a lot of money about a controversial activity and then you put your money into politics which gives you a seat at the table, gives you a significant amount of political influence and many people will say, at all of those things together and that frankly i5 will say, at all of those things together and that frankly is a potentially very dangerous perversion. Of democracy. Im repeating myself but youre saying people who give a lot of money to a Political Party shouldnt be no more heard than a man in the street who gives them nothing or something. I dont agree with that. If somebody is concerned enough about political matters or about a charity or something to give a huge amount of money, they deserve to have their opinions heard. But as an alternative strategy, if you are so concerned about getting your ideas across, you could have become a politician and put yourself up for election, held accountable by the public but you didnt do any of that. I was quite old by then, i was 65. There are politicians who are running for office as you well know in the 705 including leaders of the world so age wasnt really the problem, use or shortcut, you saw that money could deliver you something, perhaps give you more power than running as an mp. Something, perhaps give you more power than running as an mpw wasnt so much that i wanted power stop in fact, i was idiotic. And i went to see William Hague because i wa nted went to see William Hague because i wanted to give him £5 million, before he could opening his mouth, i told him why i was doing this and i ended up saying, if i was offered a peerage, i would ended up saying, if i was offered a peerage, iwould reject ended up saying, if i was offered a peerage, i would reject it and i was stupid enough to say i want no influence at all. 0ver stupid enough to say i want no influence at all. Over the cabinet or of your policies. I think you changed your mind about that over time. Yes. It interest me given your background that youve said and in again the book you discuss it disgusted that your views of broadly libertarian, you are right of centre when it comes to Economic Policy making. I am when it comes to Economic Policy making. Iam right when it comes to Economic Policy making. I am right wing economically. The critical point is that i would be in favour of being not at all kind to those who do not have a job unless they genuinely couldnt get one. I would be more kind to those who have low paying jobs. It seems to me there is an irony in that being a pillar of your political thinking went for much of your life, albeit you made a lot of money out of gambling, but you spent much of your time at card tables and racetracks. Im just saying that its important to encourage people to get a job and to work for it, if they cant get one. I have sympathy for those who cant work because of some visible problem or anything like that but i think people who can get a job, who are capable of getting a job, should jolly well get one and work for it. Lets get to the development of your political ideas. Economically, you are clearly on the libertarian right but when it came to your biggest preoccupation in politics, it wasnt in the end economics it was brexit. Euroscepticism and your increasing dissatisfaction with writtens membership of the european union. Dissatisfaction with writtens membership of the european unionm got me expelled from the conservative party. Exactly, 2009, David Cameron who i dare say you had never been eye to eye with on europe, actually decided to fire you, expel you from the party because youd decided to vote for ukip. And give them some money. The way i was spilt by was eric pickles, who was the chairman, writing an email saying, you are going to be considered for expulsion and you can write to whoever you want to and blah, blah, blah and i wrote back saying, i dont care about my rights of appeal, i shant appealed. Later i was interviewed by anne mcavoy. She then asked eric pickles who said, oh, no, i neversaid that. Ive had a long chat with him. I never spoke to him in my life. Maybe that tells us something about politicians and politics but lets stick with you and your evolution to becoming one of the prime movers behind what we now know is the brexit campaign. It began with the ukip, the uk independence party. Cameron, by 2016, i decided to hold a referendum. You decided to become a referendum. You decided to become a main backer of the leave campaign. How much money, now that you look at it, how much . When i was back and then, the campaign could go on, i gave more than £1 million to vote leave which was authorised. More than 1 million . That makes you the biggest donor. I think i was. But million . That makes you the biggest donor. Ithink i was. But when million . That makes you the biggest donor. I think i was. But when you look at leave in the campaign in 2016, are you part of it . You paid for quite a lot of it, you part of it . I am and youve gotta distinguish between vote leave and leave the eu which was our arrival in the contest to be the authorised. That body had approval. There are a ring in on an anti immigration message. That was quite an interesting point. Many people think that the leave campaign, lets not get specific about it but to leave campaign unleashed feelings of xenophobia, fear of the other, of migrants, which have been very damaging to British Society in the years. My. Vote leave, Dominic Cummings who i hugely admire made a point discussions, we dont want to emphasise immigration, because eve ryo ne emphasise immigration, because everyone is already aware of it and your point really, it would give us a reputation for being racist which we re a reputation for being racist which were not. My organisation, what i was a member of was not doing what you are suggesting. They quote you some words from michael gove who was a leader of your leave campaign, and a leader of your leave campaign, and a Campaign Speech he said in 2016, he saidi a Campaign Speech he said in 2016, he said i would like your views on it today, he said after re establish full legal independence we can decide which eu rules and regulations we want to keep stop one thing we rate changes our ability to trade freely with europe. After we leave we will remain in drips free trade zone and the day after we vote leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose any path we want. Whats wrong with that . Itsjust not true, thats whats wrong with that. What is not true . The notion the uk holds all the cards. If you want to free trade deal it can happen. I see, we can and we were very likely get one because i think the eu it has been very successful so far, for all its posturing it needs a deal far more than well do we do and we might be proved wrong within days but they will crack up, they will be the ones with the last minute. I have said this all along, at last minute the eu is desperate for a deal, they will give in eu is desperate for a deal, they willgive in and eu is desperate for a deal, they will give in and make major concessions. This is where i remember you are a gambler. This is the mentality of a poker player whose hand isnt good but is convinced that his rivals hand is worse. 0ur hand is very good. Pate ntly, worse. 0ur hand is very good. Patently, many of the things said in the leave campaign by levers such as michael gove and Boris Johnson the leave campaign by levers such as michael gove and borisjohnson the prime minster arejust michael gove and borisjohnson the prime minster are just not true, you have to think of the campaign bust. Not true. The campaign bust, with that message saying that if we lived we will have £350 million a week to spend on the nhs. Not true. Well, it depends what you mean by not true. The money that we have could be spent on the National Health service but its highly unlikely that it all would be. Since you do raise that, i was a bit worried about that because 350 million was a grace figure and not the next figure after the rebate. I was somewhat concerned about that. So here we are more than three years after the vote, we havent that, the country is deeply divided, with justin havent that, the country is deeply divided, withjustin yesterday one of the vote leave activist campaigns, not the one you are involved in but another one, putting up involved in but another one, putting up advertisement on the internet. Thats exactly why we didnt want to join with them. Theyre doing things like that. There are activists in the campaign today. There might be racist elements in that section which is very definitely not a section. When you look at where we are, orthe section. When you look at where we are, or the uncertainty over the next few weeks, business and you are businessman, not knowing the reality will be on the first of november, can you want that you regret nothing about what you have done . I do regret that ive done. Its going to be the same as the millennium bug. The fear of disaster on recession, nothing will happen, its all going to be durable, absolutely nothing. Its got up by those who want to remain and are trying to frighten the voters. A5 remain and are trying to frighten the voters. As a possibility of some very temporary forms but for instance, the shortage of vital medicines, do we really think our collea g u es medicines, do we really think our colleagues in europe who are perfectly responsible and decent people, going to let us not have the medicines we need . Just of additive stop its rubbish. I began by perhaps adjusting that your decision to make your scepticism and brexit a big part of a life, it wasnt so much you being the rational character i calculate it on its maker but it was you being driven by emotion. And you are saying about your thinking i had too much emotion the last few minutes. I really got to grips on your memoir, or even in this interview, with exactly why i drifted i got to cups. When britain was in the eu, he built a successful business and had a rather wonderful love, with britain inside the eu, i cant for the life of me quite understand why you became so passionately convinced that britain. Britain hasnt quite sicily, nothing to do with us being in the eu. Got it hold you all the nation back . Are trade with europe, we have a deficit. Despite the fact we have a deficit. Despite the fact we have a deficit. Despite the fact we have free trade, no duty, we have a surplus with the rest of the world, the idea that it has been to advantage avenger bits absolute rubbish. What was it in the early to middle life that made you personally such a profound eurosceptic. What was it . First of all, we ran our own things since 1066 and not perfectly but rather better than before, why would do want to be ruled by the people injured . 0ur would do want to be ruled by the people injured . Our economy has done better since i did 73 than before. But not because of anything to do with the eu. But my point. It fascinates me, people such as yourself, versus asper, who have become committed, come what may, die ina ditch, become committed, come what may, die in a ditch, brexit supporters, in the end it seems to me largely driven by emotion. Its not them by emotion, the eu imposes for example about 10,000 regulations on businesses, 95 of which are they do no business in europe whatsoever and have to put up with this author regulations which impede business. And why do we want to give them that why do we want to do that . Theres nothing that we from it. We just. Its going to be a huge hugely beneficial. Your many gamble, you have been alive, what are the odds you believe on getting what you want which is britain out of the european union, deal or no deal on auto 31 . You think its more likely than not . 60 . Would you agree with me that is perhaps the biggest gamble that britain will have taken in at least a generation . Thats the wrong way of looking at. Its a british decision. I of the slightest doubt whether it happens or not, britain is absolutely right, of the British Government, the current British Government, the current British Government do want to get out of that year because the eu would be absolutely disastrous. Do you know that the percentage of trade which the eu has with the rest of the world is Something Like halved over the last 20 or 30 years and is expected, its not even challenged, to go down much further still. Why do we want to be tied to this losing organisation . Just a final point, goes back to your upbringing and your privilege. Does it strike you that if you are ever wrong, and its possible that youre wrong, the british that britain wont thrive and succeed prospective, if you are wrong, its not you about the consequences, because you have a privileged, comfortable, healthy life. Its many millions of britons who are less well off than you are. If im wrong, or one can do is argue for what one thinks is best for everyone. Not just the for what one thinks is best for everyone. Notjust the rich, the book, im convinced and this is why gave the money, no point my giving the money otherwise. I think it you do to the benefit of rich and poor that we leave the eu and that is why do it. We have to and there but thank you very much indeed for being with us. I really enjoyed it. Hello there. Wednesday has been a very showery day across parts of scotland and Northern Ireland, particularly western scotland, rainfall totals really starting to mount up, weve seen some flush flooding in places, a lot of surface spray on the roads. As we head on into thursday, it looks like its going to stay pretty unsettled, turn windier through the day, with another band of rain moving in. Could see the new area of low pressure. This is the low pressure we have had for the last few days, eventually clearing off to the north east. This new area of low pressure will send its weather fronts out across for the north west of the country, and it will bring another round of fairly strong winds. Thursday though starts off fine and dry for many. Lovely spell of sunshine up and down the country. A few showers across western scotland continuing. And then the band of rain starts to push in, to Northern Ireland initially, and then into much of scotland and perhaps the far north of england. And it is going to turn very wet and we could see further issues with surface water flooding across western scotland. Whereas further south, although there will be a lot of cloud across england and wales, there could be quite a bit of dry weather too. The top temperature of 17 degrees. But through thursday night, it stays quite blustery. Further heavy showers, longer spells of rain across the north west of the country. And then we will start to see some more persistent rain pushing to parts of england and wales by the end of the night. You notice temperatures 12 14 in the south. Turning much milder. Temperatures nine or 10 the overnight low for scotland and Northern Ireland. The reason for the wet weather as we head on into friday and, indeed, into the weekend, is this weather front which will be pretty much part across england and wales, we think, and it is going to bring a lot of rainfall throughout friday. Tending to pile up into the hills of wales, perhaps the north midlands, and northern england, particularly across the peak district. 50 70 millimetres of rain by the time the day is out, so that could cause some issues, atrocious conditions on the road and some surface water flooding. Across the far south east, we could se a little bit of a brightness and dry weather, then it will be mild to the south of that weather front, friday afternoon. 18 degrees will be the high. Around 15 or 16 on the weather front. But to the north of it, for scotland and Northern Ireland, where we will see sunshine and showers, cooler air mass, 13 or 1a degrees. And for the rest of friday, looks like the showers across Northern Areas begin to ease down. Perhaps the rain for england and wales might ease down for a bit, before a new renewed bit of rain starts to push into the south west so that means, into the weekend, i think england and wales look like seeing most of the cloud and outbreaks of rain which again could cause some issues, with some surface water flooding. But a different story furrther north, for scotland and Northern Ireland, youll be in the slightly cooler air mass and therell be a mixture of sunshine and showers, some of which may be heavy and thundery. Welcome to bbc news im mike embley. Our Top Stories International condemnation as turkey invades kurdish controlled areas of north east syria. A gunman kills two people near a synagogue in eastern germany, Live Streaming it online. 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