Now on bbc news its hardtalk with stephen sackur. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. The number of forest fires burning in the amazon rainforest may have dropped since the global alarm was raised in august, but brazils government is still feeling intense political heat. My guest today is brazilian environment minister Ricardo Salles who is in europe trying to convince sceptics that president bolsonaros government is not prioritising economic exploitation at the expense of environmental protection. How credible are the brazilian governments soothing words . Ricardo salles, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. Thanks for asking me. Would you accept that the global concern raised by the sweeping forest fires that we saw in august, burning swathes of amazon rainforest, would you accept that that has put a new level of scrutiny on the actions of the brazilian government . Definitely. Its true. Were already concerned about this problem of the burns, it begins in the middle ofjuly, and when all of the Public Opinion and people have raised this question, we also get into it and try to make the Solutions Faster and more intensive. And well talk about solutions, specific responses from your government, but itjust strikes me as interesting that in that concern expressed from many parts of the world about what brazil was up to, senior members of the brazilian government chose to speak out, questioning the science on the idea of man made Global Warming, Climate Change. Why did so many of your senior colleagues voice doubts at this particular time . Yeah. I think the government of brazil now, we have the different perspectives on that issue, but the main one which has to prevail, is the one that was enacted by the ministry of environment, actually i am the representative, along with the position that the president has supported, and we have advanced all these Climate Change issues in the sense that we are taking it in a very serious way and observing all of the information and Technical Support that we can. So, speaking on behalf of the government as minister of environment, you are saying to me no question, this government, your government accepts the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change, that man made Global Warming is a real, urgent threat . We do think its a real threat and we also have in the position that we are trying to advance as much as possible all of the initiatives that we have, not only to mitigate the origin of this important issue, but also, the adaptation measures that in a country like brazil, a very poor country, the consequences of this Climate Change are going to be very serious. So as far as the governments position, why did the foreign minister, just a short time ago, say that Climate Change advocates were stirring up alarmism for political ends, its party said, of a leftist conspiracy against brazil . We do respect mr ernesto araujos position, the ambassadors position. Me, as a minister of environment, i have a different view. But hes plain wrong. Actually, his delivery is in a very clean message, what his own perspective on that, and i do have mine, and the government as a whole is doing whatever is necessary to take the necessary measures, whatever someone in the government or not believes in the proportion now of the human participation in Climate Change. And again, just keeping this big picture for a moment before we talk about whats happening in the amazon rainforest, how worried are you that brazil appears to be way off target in terms of meeting the commitments it made under the paris climate accords . According to your own climate observatory in brazil, you are missing your targets for 2025 and 2030 by a question of up to 40 in terms of c02 and Greenhouse Gas emissions cuts. I dont think. This is an institution that goes against the government since the beginning, and they have raised questions against the positions that we have adopted, but apart from that. But youre missing your target, you would accept that. Youre way off track. Not necessarily, depends. If you look in Renewable Resources of energy, for instance, brazil has done excellent work. We have around 45 of renewable sources of energy. If we look into the electrical based, we are 82 clean energy. Sure, but 46 of brazilian emissions deforestation and land use connected with deforestation. Its true, its true. But 3 brazil has contribution almost at 3 of the total 100 worldwide contribution. Among those 3 , one third is deforestation, one third is urban contribution and one third is the change of the land use. We do need to address a little bit more and advance on deforestation, which corresponds to one third of that. Its one heck of a planetary responsibility that brazil has because of the importance, huge importance of the amazon rainforest. Now, Emmanuel Macron said when we saw those fires sweeping through the rainforest in august, he said, the amazon forest is a subject for the whole planet. We cannot allow you that is you in brazil to destroy everything. Did you accept macrons premise that this is an issue that is a concern and a responsibility for the whole world, not just your government in brazil . Sure, the environment is a worldwide concern and thats why we are so focused on trying to figure out the best way to manage the problem of environment in brazil, which is not only concerned about the amazon, but also, human agenda, sanitation and so on, so we do accept that environment is a worldwide concern, its true. I guess you must accept, therefore, that you are failing failing not just yourselves, but the world. When we see the latest figures from your satellite and space agency inpe, suggesting that in the first nine months of 2019, the number of fires in the amazon is up 42 on the previous year. That is a story of total failure. No, but it was august. If you look into september figures, for instance, well see that september is the lower number since 2013. No, no, no, with respect, ive just given you the figure the latest figure from inpe, which just came out a couple of days ago, for the entire 9 month period, january through september. Yes, there was a spike in august, but you say the figures are down in september. Im, therefore, taking the whole 9 month span january to september forest fires, 42 up. Well, this year, if you look, its 42 up, its compared to 2018, and then 2018 was a year with very low numbers of fires, many different things, but especially things related to the climate. Its more humid, more rain, more. Appropriate numbers for reducing the fires. So, if you look just compared to 2018, there is a huge difference, and you are correct, but if you look for the historical numbers, we are in the average, and also, this month, as i mentioned, its going down again, so the historical numbers are in the average numbers. Yeah, the problem is that it doesnt seem that your government is serious about tackling the problem of the illegal fires, the illegal deforestation because your own president said, in the midst of this august crisis with the fire spreading, he said, who are the biggest suspects for lighting the fires . Its the ngos, the non governmental organisations. What an absurd thing for your president to suggest. Well, you can imagine that the president and the cabinet receives information from many different parts, and at that time, we have received, as cabinet, as a whole, information from many different sources, by saying that people were setting fire on purpose. It was not confirmed for certain points, but somehow, at that moment, it was some of the arguments that came out. I dont think there was any questions these fires were set on purpose, but the clear objective of the people setting the fires was to burn the trees to create new lands to be cultivated. Its true, its correct. Part of the fires. So, why would your president suggest the ngos were involved . Indeed, why did he then go on to fire the highly respected boss of the space and satellite agency, saying that Ricardo Galvao was at the service of the ngos . What is the president doing and thinking . Well, theres a whole narrative conflict in brazil since when bolsonaro was elected, when the left lost the position in government and then this whole change by the conservatives and the liberals and so on. Theres a whole narrative explains a lot of this argumentation. But minister, you speak for the Environment Agency. Your president is directly undermining the fight that i imagine you believe is the right fight against those illegal organisations, criminals who are setting fire to the rainforest in order to destroyed and, therefore, to create new lands for agriculture. The president is undermining your efforts to stop that. We need to make this effort to stop that much more stronger. Some of the strategies that we can implement to do that is by understand and focus on the reasons why we have so much pressure over the forest. It is made by the agricultural, but not only. It comes from the illegal mining extraction. Indeed. Also from other illegal activities, the removal of trees, the illegal market of wood, so theres a whole complex thing that we need to focus on the origins and the reason why this pressure is going up. Yeah. You see, again, its a question of will, isnt it . I also looked into the detail of the august fires. It was extraordinary to see that on august 10, in one of the areas of rainforest which is most at risk around a town called novo progresso, in a local newspaper, dozens of farmers declared in public that they were going to start fires as a protest against restrictions and regulations. This was in the public domain. Sure enough, on august 10, those fires were lit. The government, including the agencies youre responsible for, had done nothing to prevent it why . No, no, the Environment Agency, we immediately sent official letters to the Police Authorities because its a matter of police, its a criminal activity. We immediately sent official transmission or information to the police to act and it started the investigation. Unfortunately, we did have problems that delayed a few days at the beginning of the search investigation, but it is under it is going now, and the federal police is in charge of that, and as far as i know, we dont have the entire information. You realise that to an outside ear, you saying, 0h, we sent a few letters. Sounds absurd. Its official how to communicate between the Environmental Agency and the Police Authorities. We send immediate information by saying, we received that information, you were supposed to act and. It goes further than this. You, as environment minister, took the position before the world became so concerned about the fires, but in april, you cut the budget for ibama, one of the key agencies defending the environment. You cut it by almost a quarter. Why did you do it . We didnt do it. The reason the the whole government in brazil received a budget cut order from the minister of economy. Every single ministry. What we did the minister of environment, that we decide to have those cuts over administrative cuts, overheads, not the final what we call final activities, which are mainly focused on fiscalisation and control. It didnt get any cuts. Well, thats not what the ibama officials themselves say. 0ne official quoted in a recent Human Rights Watch report on what they called the mafia behind the fires, one official in ibama said this they, that is the organised criminals doing the fire lighting, they believe they will be able to do whatever they want and they wont be able to have fines imposed on them or their equipment destroyed because of the weakness in our organisation. The weakness is true, but it didnt come from now. We have been facing the reduction of the workforce by 50 for the past couple of years. We also faced the reduction of fleet, the destruction of the buildings, the whole management process is being suffered by that, so its not a question of being made on purpose or now, but is the whole process that is coming on. Let me be very honest with you, minister salles. It looks, from your record, as though you dont really believe in increasing regulatory protections and Law Enforcement against those who are cutting down the forest. You said, in the Financial Times on the 23rd of august, the solution to illegal logging in the amazon is to monetise it by opening up more areas to commercial development. You quite plainly are on the side of the loggers and big business, youre not on the side of the forest. If we dont provide an economic alternative for that sustainable develop for more than 20 Million People who live in the amazon, they will go after the forest as a source of income for themselves. So what i said to that interview was that we need to find out a way, whether its a buyer economy agenda or other things in order to give such opportunity for them to have an alternative source of income and jobs. If we dont do that, they wont this alternative. Then they go after the forest as the source of income. But in the end, it comes down to where your loyalties lie, who do you believe you are serving. It seems even now, as federal environment minister, your first interest is in serving the interests of big business. Look at your own record. When you ran the Environment Agency in the state of sao paulo, a judge found that you had broken the law in your attempt to help mining interests get their hands on new lands. He didnt say mining company. He said that i did the change of the maps because it was trying to advance the developing agenda as opposed to the environmental. Im going to quote you thejudge, if i may. Thejudge declared, and im quoting, you. As the man involved at the time, heading up the Environment Agency, attended the economic interests of a restricted group. And by that he meant the mining interest. That is interpretation. Mine is interpretation. This is the key phrase. In detriment to the defence of the environment. Yeah, because of the socialist view, sometimes theres not appropriating the permitted development is going against the environment. Yeah, you fiddled the maps, you broke the law. No, i didnt do that. You were found guilty. No, no, thats what he said, but its not true. What happened was that we were trying to establish the parameters for this economic development, because without the economic development, the sustainable way, theres no resources to take care of the environment. Eight former environment ministers have looked at the way you are running the Environment Ministry and they have expressed grave concern that the ministry is being depleted of its powers, being stripped ofjurisdiction over the countrys water agency, forestry service, that senior officials have been eliminated, including the secretary on Climate Change. Once again, its the whole group of people who lost the election. If you put the observatory of climate, theres eight prior ministers and many of these. Eight eight former ministers look at the way youre handling the ministry and they say you are betraying the interests of the brazilian environment. No, we are betraying their left wing interests and perspectives, which i believe did not succeed. Because you are all about, in your entire career, all about representing big business. Not big business. Im representing the laws of the market, the logic, the rationale in things that generate prosperity, prosperity which can sustain the environmental sustainability. They have made all of these comments and they have forgotten that they were seated over there and they were not able to provide some sort of prosperity with social and environmental sustainability to those 20 Million People who used to live there. Are you not concerned that since mr bolsonaro came to power, since he hand picked you to run the Environment Ministry, the International Community has lost faith in brazils commitment to protecting its vital natural assets. That is why norway, for example, and germany as well, have suspended all future funding for the amazon fund. And in terms of norway, that means they, having given you the best part of a billion dollars, are no longer going to give you Crucial Assets for the amazon. Ijust came from germany now and we just established with the German Government the grounds for continuation of that fund. But as of now, despite the meetings youve just had, those funds remain blocked. Theyre blocked because the whole fund has its statutes not enforced now. We need to remodel that. Well, with respect, minister, the simple reason why theyre blocked is because governments such as the german, the norwegian, have lost faith in brazils determination to fight for the amazon for the environment. The environment is everybody, everywheres concern. Brazil has done an excellentjob. We have 84 of the amazon preserved as opposed to many other countries that may criticise us, they have no forest anymore. Its about trajectory, though, isnt it . And if we look, notjust at the illegal logging, which you have suggested youre going to work with the loggers, because you believe they have to be given a livelihood, but also, look at mining, look at road building, look at the plans of your government, every which way, there is proposals on the table, which are going to further destroy swathes of the amazon rainforest. But this conflict, stephen, between having Sustainable Development or quite the opposite, assume this as destroying, i dont think it is correct. We can have some sort of development in a sustainable basis, and then, in the same time, provide some sort of infrastructure. The worst thing for the environment is poverty. We have to address that. Yeah, i suppose one litmus test of how serious you are about trying to balance the different interests is your attitude to the Indigenous Peoples. Now, the figures are fascinating. Less than a million Indigenous People live in what is pretty much 13 of the brazilian landmass, obviously mostly in the amazon rainforest. In 2017, your president , jair bolsonaro, said, minorities and he was looking about the Indigenous Peoples minorities have to bend down to the majority. They should either adapt or simply vanish. Thats the mentality we see today from your government towards the Indigenous Peoples of the amazon forest. No, i think its quite the opposite. What the president is doing now is trying to entitle indigenous to decide by their own. What did you think of the president s words back then . He said. What he mentioned at that time. Simply vanish. No, he didnt mention he didnt mean that. Well, why did he say it then . His position as a president has been on this Indigenous Agency that we have over there is try to provide as much as possible capabilities to indigenous to decide by their own, instead of third parties deciding in their position. Its what the president is doing. There are hundreds of different restricted indigenous zones within the amazon forest. How many have you visited . Around ten. Ten. So, its much less than 10 . Well, but i am not in charge of the indigenous land. This is not a ministry. The environment is quite different. Yes, but the relationship between the two is so clear, because they are threatened by so many of the illegal developments that the brazilian government appears to be ready to turn a blind eye to. Let me just quote you one indigenous leader, Davi Kopenawa yanomami. He speaks for his people. He said, my people didnt tell anybody that we want to become white, that we want mining, that we want money. He said, moneys like the wind it comes and goes, but this forest is a sacred place and we do not want the white people to ruin it. What do you say to him . Well, we will respect him. What the president said, that for those who want to continue in this way, being isolated, keep their lifestyle the way thatitis,itis going to be respected. But in the other hand, i can quote you here five different places where the Indigenous Leaders said to me, and the cinta larga, and in mato grosso as well, they said they wanted to produce, they want to do other things, they want to take children to school and have another sort of opportunity. Why have the invasions illegal invasions of Indigenous Lands in brazil exploded by more than 40 in the past nine months . I would say these traits to the indigenous comes from many different places, comes also from abroad, come from the pressure of the mining. Isnt it because of the pro business message that your government sends out and, frankly, a message which says, if you do things illegally, if you do things criminally, we will tolerate it . No, we will not tolerate anything. This is the government that is going against everything that is illegal. For the first time in the history brazil. Well, you are doing a very bad job about it because all the figures suggest the illegality is rising. Thats not true, thats not true. We have nine months period of government without any single case of corruption in brazil. We have nine months government without one single case of disrespecting the law. This is not this narrative is not correct. This is the government of zero tolerance for illegal activities by any means. Ijust want i want to end with one more set of words from somebody rather different. That is Greta Thunberg in new york. You were in new york too. I imagine you might have listened to this while you were there. I dont know if you were in the Un General Assembly at the time, but she said this. You have stolen my dreams. She wasnt talking just you, of course. She was talking to all of us, humanity. Youve stolen your dreams, my childhood with your empty words. Were in the beginning of a mass extinction and all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth. How dare you what do you think shed think of your Government Policies today . Well, she has the right to think whatever she wants. I do have my own position as a minister. I have the obligation, the responsibility to deliver solutions to the environment, also to the brazilian people. These empty words that she expressed, i do agree 100 , in this environmental scenario, we have been facing a lot of empty words so far, using peoples and taxpayers money for things that have not generated results. So what were trying to do is undertake a Public Policy that really generates results and thats very responsible with taxpayers funds and with the goals that were supposed to achieve and things that were really going to deliver. Ricardo salles, we have to end there, but i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hello there. It was a fairly unsettled day on tuesday. We saw plenty of showers across northern and western areas. And a few got across into the east that were pretty heavy and thundering in one or two spots. But there was plenty of sunshine too. The next two days, similar story, staying rather unsettled, with low pressure nearby, and it is going to be windy for most. On wednesday, low pressure against the north of the uk. Fairly strong winds, plenty of showers blowing from west to east. And then for thursday and friday, looks like we could see more organised weather fronts pushing in to bring more system rain for some areas. If you were watching yesterday, like i mentioned, it is not going to be particularly cold the next few days, as our air source will be coming in off the atlantic from the west or the south west. The night should be too cold either. For wednesday then, it starts off bright, some sunshine across eastern areas. Wel have a scattering of heavy, perhaps thundery showers affecting south wales, southern counties of england through the day, and lots of showers will be piling into western scotland. And the wind strong, particularly across the west and, when the showers come along, gusting 30, maybe a0 miles per hour, in exposed spots. Temperature wise, a few degrees down on what we had on tuesday. That is the low teens across scotland, Northern Ireland, maybe 111 15 across the south and the east. Through wednesday night, it stays blustery. Lots of showers again across northern and western areas. Some of them merging together to produce longer spells of rain here. But we could see some dry interludes or long clear spells across central and eastern part of the country. Those temperatures dipping down from seven to 10 degrees. So on into thursday, weve got low pressure to the north east of the uk. Next system pushing in with more active weather fronts, could bring more persistent rain to parts of the country, like i mentioned. So i think well start off fairly cool, bright, plenty of sunshine around. To the west, thicker cloud and this front will bring more persistent rain to Northern Ireland and into scotland through the day but again, further south, will be sunshine and showers, mainly across wales and the south west of england. But a few spots will see some hazy sunshine. Those temperatures but up again. 17 degrees will be the high. Lots of weather fronts on the chart. Youll see on friday, some uncertainty to where these fronts will actually be. It could be that parts of the north west of scotland will see outbreaks of rain. Another one may move south east, across england and wales, to bring a spell of persistent rain. Some sunshine in between. Those temperatures up a notch again, 17 or 18 degrees across the south and the east of the country. It remains unsettled with low pressure always nearby into the weekend. Showers or longer spells of rain, also a little bit of sunshine, but it will stay on the breezy side. Hello, everyone, and welcome. Youre watching you stay on the bbc. Newsday. Im rico hizon in singapore. The headlines the white house now says it will not participate in the trump impeachment inquiry after ordering a key witness not to appear. As britains Prime MinisterBoris Johnson prepares for crucial talks with his irish counterpart this week, a warning that finding any agreement wont be easy. I think its going to be very difficult to secure an agreement by next week, quite frankly. We very much want there to be a deal and ill certainly work until the very last moment to secure that. But not at any cost. Im kasia madera in london. Also in the programme turkey bolsters its military presence on the border with syria, a day after the us withdraws its forces from the region. 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