Transcripts For BBCNEWS Victoria Derbyshire 20240713

Work out that way. It left a hole in my heart which i dont think will ever be able to get filled up again. It literally. I dont know, it tore me in half. Its a real moment, its like you are watching it from outside. You know its your son but you cant believe its your son. And thenjust to see his heart beat slowly to a stop and what do you do . Then your life stops. It is broken, it has torn me apart, there is a big hole what will never be fixed in my life forjermaine. You know, as much as i try to look through it and accept it, i just really cant. If youre a man whos lost a friend, or a relative, to knife crime, get in touch. Also today downing street says the government is preparing for a breakdown in talks with the eu over brexit this week. And Chris Packham is here to tell us why hes protesting with Extinction Rebellion. And what does he think of the Prime Minister calling the Climate Change demonstrators uncooperative crusties . Hello, welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. Do get in touch on all the stories were talking about use the hashtag victoria live. If you are a man and lost someone to knife crime. Earlier this year we spoke to 13 women. Today we will be speaking to these men. First, annita has the news. Good morning, everyone. The brexit talks will collapse this week thats the prediction from a downing street source in a series of incendiary texts published by the spectator magazine. Government officials this morning say they do not dispute the assessment. The briefing in the spectator goes on to suggest that borisjohnson will do all sorts of things to prevent the uks departure due at the end of the month from being delayed. Former work and pensions secretary amber rudd whos now an independent mp says she is disappointed by the tone of the memo. It sounds angry and desperate, and the language that is used, i do not believe should be the language of the uk government. Theres a fair amount of speculation about where it came from, but since it hasnt been denied by number ten, and no young woman spad, for instance, has been marched out of downing street, one can only assume its come from the centre, from the Prime Ministers advisor. The style of it seems to imply that. You think Dominic Cummings . Yes, because otherwise it would have been heavily denied and heads would have rolled, so clearly its come from then, its in their style. Borisjohnson has labelled Extinction Rebellion environmental protestors unco operative crusties who should abandon what he called their hemp smelling bivouacs and stop blocking roads. He made his comments at a book launch yesterday evening. The metropolitan police have brought in new measures to tackle the protestors demonstrating in central london. Theyll now only be allowed to lawfully demonstrate in Trafalgar Square. So far, more than 300 people have been arrested. Turkey says its ready to begin a military operation in syria as President Trump defends his surprise decision to pull out us troops. The american president s move has aroused cross Party Opposition in the us, where hes been accused of abandoning kurdish fighters in the region. Young people who are addicted to Computer Games and gambling can now get specialist help on the nhs in england. Its estimated that around 55,000 11 to 16 year olds in the uk are problem gamblers. Treatment is being made easier to access, including using skype for consultations. A woman has been taken to hospital with serious injuries after falling from a ride at hull fair. A statement from Humberside Police said it is believed she fell from one ride onto the base of another nearby, on monday evening. Both rides have been closed while officers and safety officials establish what happened. That is a summary of the news so far, back to you, victoria. This group of men, all of whom have lost a a close relative or friend to knife crime, have told this programme they feel ignored when it comes to grieving for their loved one. In the year up to march this year, there were around 43,500 knife crime offences across the uk. Thats an 80 increase over the previous five years. The number of People Killed with knives has been steadily rising since 2015. Back in march this year, we spoke to 1a mums, all of whom had lost a son to knife crime. They told us how it had affected them and what they wanted the authorities to do to stop it happening to others. Well, now weve brought together 13 dads, brothers, uncles, cousins and friends whove all experienced the same thing. Here are some of their stories. I could never imagine my brother doing that to anyone. I could never imagine him doing that to anyone. For it to happen to him, out of everyone who always used to put smiles on everyones faces. No one deserves for their child to go away like that, or a family member, or a brother. J was trying to talk, j was trying to get up and i shouted out to him, j, these people here are trying to help you. Just listen to them and everything is going to be ok. I knew when i walked in that room it wasnt good news because you could tell by the way they were, there were four or five doctors and nurses all in the one room, me, my wife and my daughter. They said that unfortunately he bled out too much, all his organs had gone and they kept him on a life support machine for us to say goodbye. They said thatjermaine has not made it. That was my. That was a black cloud over my eyes. That was the darkest feeling i ever had in my entire life as a parent. He used to call me the golden child because i was always excelling in my studies. He thought as he wasnt as bright, i would say, as me, he thought like i would be like the gateway to a successful future for ourfamily. Everybody knew jermaine just as a character full of life, full of energy, full of strength. We had an amazing relationship, we were more like mates. Typical banter, we both supported different teams, so we had that banter going on. He was amazing, no matter which room he walked into, he lit it up, his smile. Tall, good looking, he had everything, he was a jammy git. It was his sisters birthday but he never came home and we kept texting and a couple of his friends wondered where he was. All of a sudden a knock on the door. This is half past four on a saturday afternoon. Jermaine went out, my daughter came in from work and it is unusual that he hasnt picked up his phone and he hasnt called her back. All of a sudden i heard a knock on the door. My daughter ran into the hallway, ran into the dining room where i was and said to me, dad, jermaine has been stabbed. I thought, what . So i was 16 when this happened to me, just before my gcses. I found out from his friend. His friend saw my number on his phone and called me. He was like, are you abdullahs little brother . I was like, yes, why . Whats wrong . Where is abdullah . And then hejust told me that he had just been stabbed. I didnt know what to think, but one thing i didnt want to do was tell my mum or anyone yet. I was too worried. Just sat watching telly, a typical saturday night. And i get a phone call from my partners friend and she said, steve, i dont know whats but someone said jason has been stabbed. And when i arrived there were two Police Officers with him trying to resuscitate him. They cordoned off the area and then we literally got pushed off the street and we werent allowed to be there. So it was just from afar. And you just assume everything is going to be 0kjust because there is medics there. And it doesnt always work out that way. It left a hole in my heart which i dont think. Which i dont think will ever be able to get filled up again. It literally. I dont know, itjust tore me in half. Its a surreal moment, its like you are watching it from outside. You know it is your son but you cant believe it is your son. And thenjust to see his heart beat slowly to a stop and then what do you do . Then your life stops. I even had someone ask me, how did you not go out nd get the people that done this to your son . Im like, what . Are you for real . If that was me. And you are like, well, thats not me. Ive got a family still to look after. It has broken, it has tore me apart. There is a big hole what will never be fixed in my life. Forjermaine. You know, as much as i try to look through it and accept it, i just really cant. Iremembercoming away from the hospital and getting into my brother in laws car and thinking to myself what do i do now . I was trying to stay strong. I equate it to being my car going over the cliff and barty has fell and the rest of them have got to hang onto that car because if i dont, they will all fall over. That is the way i have looked at it from day one, i have to hold that car off from the edge of the cliff because it was like a car crash when it happened, you know. Never really told him how i really felt. I personally felt like i had to do a lot more now for like my mum and the rest of the family. Sincej died every news channel, no one was interested they were interested in sharon. We have done joint interviews and ive not even got one second. Its soul destroying knowing that you are putting in all this effort spilling. All your heartfelt emotions and not a word has been said. We own this inner pain which sometimes we need to release. Im not going to say im superman and im macho and i wont have tears for my son, i would always have cries and tears for my son, and this is what men should do and i hope that men do release their feelings at some point. And some of the men featured in sarah 0connells film are here, alongside other dads, uncles, friends and brothers. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on our programme and talk iam going i am going to ask you to tell the audience who you last and what that meant to you . My name is Graham Stuart and we lost our little brother two years ago, ciaran stuart. He met the well to our family. He was like the baby of the family. He was like the baby of the family and he was always at home. You would go to the house and expect to see him there. We no longer see him there any more. What did he mean to you . He was my favourite person if you want me to be honest. We always spent so much time with him and his heart was so forgiving and so and his heart was so forgiving and so big. It has been one of the hardest things i have ever had to deal with. Mark, hello. Hardest things i have ever had to dealwith. Mark, hello. James was oui dealwith. Mark, hello. James was our life. Can we see the photograph of james . Although he our life. Can we see the photograph ofjames . Although he was our life. Can we see the photograph of james . Although he was 2596 of the family, in actual fact now he has gone it feels like half the family has disappeared with him. He was very loud, very lively and his silence in the house is deafening. Hello. I lost my little brother abdullah. He was my role model, he was a boxer and i decided to take up boxing as well. He used to always ta ke boxing as well. He used to always take care of us when it was just boxing as well. He used to always take care of us when it wasjust my itiuiti as a take care of us when it wasjust my mum as a single parent. He used to stick up for myself. Ajay, good morning. I am ajay. Stick up for myself. Ajay, good morning. Iam ajay. I lost stick up for myself. Ajay, good morning. I am ajay. I lost my son. He was the family celebrity. He was the second grandchild but oldest grandson, so his siblings and cousins, it was always a special occasion when he was around. Hello, stanley. Hello, i occasion when he was around. Hello, stanley. Hello, lam occasion when he was around. Hello, stanley. Hello, i am a stanley, jermaines father. My son meant a lot to me. He wasjust like my best friend. He was. He was the world. He meant a lot to the family, everybody, the community. All of his friends, everybody. Somebody we really lost we admired. His strength, he gave us a lot of love in our hearts, he was a special boy, very special. Jermaine was my little cousin but he was more like a little brother to me. He was the life and soul of the party at christmases, birthdays. He was always their dancing and having fun. I have got memories ofjermaine dancing and having fun. I have got memories of jermaine partying dancing and having fun. I have got memories ofjermaine partying and funnyjokes with him. Now that he has gone christmases and birthdays will be so different and it is hard to know that he has gone, even though he has gone to a better place. That void is massive. Thank you. I am jasons dad and since he has gone it has not affected just home, it is everywhere, his workplace, his friends, the local football club. And like many of these young men here, he was the life and soul of our family and not having him here any more is the biggest kick in the teeth for anyone. We lost him at the age of 15. He was a lot to our family and losing him has brought a big hole in out losing him has brought a big hole in our family. Try to fill that void is hard. He was our future bob marley. His future was bright and it has just been taken away like that, like a snap. He was everything. The loss that kamali had was notjust for the family, it was for the community. He was a real figurehead for many young people which we did not even know. We used to have secret banter where whenever i use to turn up he would turn up. We used to have this banter where we would say, i will see you first. And finding out how many people he touched younger and older than him amazed us and the effect he had across the whole community in such a short space of time was amazing. He was your nephew. Yes, we we re amazing. He was your nephew. Yes, we were close friends, but we were like brothers. I have known him from birth and we went through this. Hello, iam russell birth and we went through this. Hello, i am Russell Brown and i lost my son russell barty brown. He was oui my son russell barty brown. He was our life. He was everybodys life. When he passed the light went out in oui when he passed the light went out in our area when he passed the light went out in ourarea and when he passed the light went out in our area and people came from far and wide to see the lights go out in his mum and his sisters eyes, seeing his knee is still upset. She was three years old at the time and she is six now and she still misses him. Everybody misses barty. Every year we have things for his birthday and hundreds come. He wasjust there, he was everybodys friend, he brought them home for food, our house was always. And they still come. They have never left our site. For him to go that way that quick is just wrong, he had a lot to give this world. I am paul, i am teens younger brother. He was notjust a brother to me, he taught me everything i needed to be a man, he was more than a brother, he was like a dad to me. A massive hole has happened to my family. A dad to me. A massive hole has happened to my familylj a dad to me. A massive hole has happened to my family. I am jamie, i am pauls friend and we have been friends for a long while. I have seen the devastation that has been left in his family and the hole. It is just terrible. Thank you, all of you. Iam is just terrible. Thank you, all of you. I am going to introduce martin griffiths, a trauma surgeon from the Royal London Hospital and we will bring him in later. Iwonder Royal London Hospital and we will bring him in later. I wonder if any of you still think that your son, your nephew, your cousin, your brother, is going to walk into the room any moment because you dont believe it . Yes. I have a studio back at home and my brother was a lwa ys back at home and my brother was always putting his bike off against my window and i have got a big window and are used to always tell him off, stop putting your bike on the window and you will smash it. And he was like, no, its all right, brother. And then he would come running in in his shorts. He would use the toilet, rate my sweetie draw and then i would get a kiss on the head. See you soon. It was like the crossroads for his bike right from one of his mates to the other. When he would come, he was 16, he would not call me to say he was coming, he would just turn up. Anytime the dog goes randomly there that sinking feeling that i know that a random knock on the door is never going to be him again. Even though you hear the random knock and you have that. That misguided hope, you just know it aint going to happen. When you heard about the death of your loved one, was it a knock on the door . Was it a phone call . What happened . The door . Was it a phone call . What happened . Mark. The door . Was it a phone call . What happened . Mark. It was our daughter crashing through our bedroom door a little after midnight to say that james had been stabbed. She was hysterical and we were asleep and she woke us out of our sleep. That was all she said. She went straight up was all she said. She went straight up to the scene, which was about 300 yards from our front door, and we followed her. We all abandoned our ca is followed her. We all abandoned our cars in the road to witness our son having open heart surgery on the pavement. Were you able to get close to him or not . No, we had to stand ata to him or not . No, we had to stand at a distance and the paramedics worked for an hour trying to save him and eventually he passed away. We were allowed to go to him, but he had already gone. Did others experience that feeling, being told you had to keep back, because clearly the Emergency Services are working on your loved one to try and keep them alive . Yes, it is one of the hardest things. I was basically third on the scene because the police were already there. My partner is at her friends house and lam partner is at her friends house and iamat partner is at her friends house and i am at home and it was like a race to get there. When you get there i was literally stood there and it seemed like within seconds we were getting shooed away. I was like, thatis getting shooed away. I was like, that is my son. All these thoughts are running through your head and you dont know how to do it and somebody is telling you to go away, please. We understand now, but at the time i didnt. It is the biggest kick in the teeth. In terms of the phone call i got, when my phone rings now that is all i expect, bad news. Really . And my heart pounds. I dont know if any of you are like this, but if somebody says i will call you at a certain time, but when it rings at any other time my heart completely stops, i expect bad news. I want to read the messages from our audience listening to you and watching you. Jojo tweets, these fathers and brothers of knife crime victims on Victoria Derbyshire are absolutely heartbreaking, they are brave, they are inspiring. People caught with knives should be made to sit and watch the programme, to listen to these men, to feel their pain and bear witness to the results of their actions. Helen says the testimonies of these dads and brothers of the casualties of stabbing are brave and clear and heartbreaking. Please find Youth Services properly. Another says, so sad, so brave and so important to talk and share these experiences. 0ne talk and share these experiences. One more for now, if i may. Madame butterfly says it is an incredibly emotive and complex issue but this piece on your programme on fathers is important as the focus has generally been on the mothers. That leads me to my next question. Do women and men grieve differently . Yes. Very much so. That is unanimous . Yes. Give us some examples. As men we are not meant to show our emotions, we have to keep oui show our emotions, we have to keep our emotions in check and be the brave one stop but it is our loved one has gone. I used to cry every day for my son, every day. In front of other people . I used to give it to myself. At the beginning i did not care if it was in front of whoever. But in the latter stages i do it at home because i am at home within four walls looking at pictures of my son. Yes, every day. It is not so bad now because as time goes on you learn to live with the situation, which i am trying to do now. I am learning to cope with it. Yes, we grieve differently, we are meant to hold our emotions . Does eve ryo ne meant to hold our emotions . Does everyone agree with that, you are expected to hold your emotions in . The women in my family, my mother and my sisters, they spoke a lot more about it. The family came around them and supported them as women a lot more than the i suppose our friends and family were around us, but trying to express yourself ina room us, but trying to express yourself in a room of man is quite difficult as women are more open to express themselves amongst each other. It felt as though as men we were quite isolated in comparison to the women. It is interesting to say that because you are expressing yourself now ina because you are expressing yourself now in a room full of men. Men with a shared experience. That is the difference, a huge difference. A shared experience. That is the difference, a huge differencelj difference, a huge difference. found the same thing. Women could openly show how they felt. 0n the day or one of my friends pulled me aside and said, i dont know how to feel, i dont know how to show what is going on. I know what is going on, but what do we do . All the men that were there, none of them showed their real emotion of how they felt and it is hard because you are lost. We want to support paul as well in the way that we could support paul as men, but then none of us are showing our emotions so it is kind of distant. For me, it is the process of time which has allowed everybody to be here. So, for me, i dont know, the first 18 months i had to literally wait until everyone was in bed and i could get a picture out and look at him, have those moments, cry, talk, whatever. I would not be able to do that when the kids get out from school. It is dinner time, it is homework time, you do not want to get upset. If dad is weak, everybody is weak. Is that what you think, if you crack, the family will crack . Yes. Yes. I was fast forwarded into a position of strength automatically given to me. Me and my brother were the only boys in the family, the strength of the family. To have his strength of the family. To have his strength automatically be given to us, myfamily strength automatically be given to us, my family fell apart in seconds. Did any of you feel ignored in terms of your grief, because you were the man . I think, as of your grief, because you were the man . Ithink, as men, of your grief, because you were the man . I think, as men, we kind of. We kind of feel as if we are not allowed to show our emotion because everybody else is showing their emotions. If everybody is cracking, who is holding this thing together . But as much as we want to show our emotion again, how do we, from a personal perspective . From a west indian culture, men dont cry. You just brush off and say, and so it go, kind of thing, you kind of get on with it. But you cant get on with it because your world its never. With it because your world its never. Like, idont with it because your world its never. Like, i dont know how to bea never. Like, i dont know how to be a parent to three kids, i am a pa re nt be a parent to three kids, i am a parent to four, now i have to parent to three and it is like, how do i do that . I was a father to a son and three daughters, how do i. But thenl three daughters, how do i. But then i had to hold that emotion when lam around then i had to hold that emotion when i am around my daughters, i cant show my daughters i do not know how to be the cool, crazy dad any more. What do you think would happen if you cried in front of them . Subconsciously or realistically . Realistically. I have three daughters, my big two, now 16 and 13, they are the most amazing. They say to me all the time, especially my eldest, she says cry. And do you . The little one says its all right to cry. And they see dads pain. And it hurts them to see me not releasing my pain, because they know once the pain is released we can kind of move forward. So in a realistic world its like. Its ok to do it. But subconsciously, its like, im dad, not cry baby, im dad. I should be telling you guys, come on, now. Not you telling me. As men it is hard to be like, let somebody else nurse me. If he had tried to do that before i would have brushed it off, but keep your hand there now, i need that. But as men we are not allowed to say, come on, i need that. But you are, and your girl sent amazing. I need that. But you are, and your girl sentamazing. I i need that. But you are, and your girl sent amazing. I will bring in martin griffiths, he is a trauma surgeon martin griffiths, he is a trauma surgeon from the Royal London Hospital, the nhs Violent Crime reduction chief or london. You have cared for hundreds of patients and lost 50 under your care. I want to ask you, from the male perspective, when you walk from the operating theatre to the room where relatives are waiting for you and you have to tell them that you have not been able to save their son nephew or brothers life, what is going through your mind as you walk towards that room . One word, dredge. One word, dread. I had done this far too many times. As i walk from my team, who are devastated they have lost this boy on the table, as i work with the nurses accompanying me, i know i will break a familys out and destroy lives. But i have to do it because the family deserve to know the truth, there boy is dead. Basically. Notionally shelley and, no hope, no misconception. Tell the truth. The reaction is always heartbreaking. Sometimes it is tea rs, heartbreaking. Sometimes it is tears, sometimes shouting, sometimes angen tears, sometimes shouting, sometimes anger, sometimes absolutely nothing, and that is devastating. Then you have to try and explain how, why, but no one is listening. Everybody is voting. People are numb, it is difficult. Everybody is emoting. Men resort to violence because they cant say what they feel, they cant explain how they are feeling about life so they choose to act in ways they are allowed to behave, shouting, physicality and violence. This stuff happens because men cant talk about their feelings to each other. If we could do this, this would not happen. Do people agree or disagree . Mark . I agree, yes. We are very different to women, arent we . Lam not very different to women, arent we . I am not surprised to hear that. We need more of that open approach for men to talk to each other. What do you say . I dont know, i found out quite late. When i found out, i didnt feel any emotion, i went straight to bed and got a few hours of sleep at 20s school in the morning. You went to school the next day . I thought it was a nightmare, i was in year, day . I thought it was a nightmare, i was in year 11, doing day . I thought it was a nightmare, i was in year, doing my day . I thought it was a nightmare, i was in year 11, doing my gcses. I just went to school and then i realised everything was happening and that is when i broke down, that was one of the only times i broke down. When you went to school, did you say, my brother has been stabbed . I didnt want to tell anyone, i didnt want the attention, everyone anyone, i didnt want the attention, eve ryone around anyone, i didnt want the attention, everyone around me. Anyone, i didnt want the attention, everyone around me. It would not have help me or broughton back. That is howl have help me or broughton back. That is how i felt as a year old, but eventually people found out. Titled a teacher i was comfortable with and thenl a teacher i was comfortable with and then i was looked after. When you had to tell someone the truth, as you put it, martin, and it is important to make it clear that someone important to make it clear that someone is dead, that there is no hope, does that mean. Do you feel you have failed in yourjob . Yes. People die either despite or because of me. Myjob is to make it despite. But it does not change there is a human being, there is somebody you are charged with the care of and at the end of the day they are not there any more, and you feel responsible to a certain extent. In terms of how you are treated as men when you are grieving, compared to how women are treated, i know some of you have talked about being interviewed by the media, it happened to you, jason . Basically i think it was a day or maybe two days after, we went to the crime scene and local internet news channel came to interview us and i was stood with my partner. They literally told me, i think it would be best if you stand to one side. I was like, why . I want to stand. And be strong with my wife. They went, no, let her do it on her own. I went, why . They went because it is more appealing for a went because it is more appealing fora mum to went because it is more appealing for a mum to be on telly and not you. How did you feel . Gutted. What happened to you, russell . We did a talk at Trafalgar Square for the standing together christian charity, a woman said, why are you here . She said, my husband is here to give a talk. She said, wouldnt it can better from you . Talk. She said, wouldnt it can better from you . She talk. She said, wouldnt it can better from you . She said, why . Does my husband grieve any less than me . She had to walk away from this woman. Why would it be better from a woman. Why would it be better from a woman than me . I grieve for my son as much as she did. Why do you think you are ignored sometimes . The women have carried the child and given birth, soi have carried the child and given birth, so i think there is an automatic empathy, particularly from women to women, they have a shared experience and i think that its what it is. That is true, but. The ha rd est what it is. That is true, but. The hardest thing, when i got to the scene, either 28 miles away from where i live to merit was. When i got there, i felt his where i live to merit was. When i got there, ifelt his mum where i live to merit was. When i got there, i felt his mum was there, obviously, and not evenjust got there, i felt his mum was there, obviously, and not even just the days afterwards, i felt useless because it is like. Besides the fa ct we because it is like. Besides the fact we were not together, it is like, iam fact we were not together, it is like, i am your sons dad and there is nothing i can do for you. I hope you, make you a cup of tea, makes no difference. Help her in the house, makes no difference. Every time i would look at her, and it is hard, because she thinks he looks like me, i think he looks like her. I could not look at herfor a i think he looks like her. I could not look at her for a data because every time i did, i saw him and i saw how helpless i was in the situation i could not look at her for a bit. People expect fathers handle it differently, grieve differently because you didnt give birth to the child, but it is even worse because you are watching the woman who birthed your child and you can do nothing to help. Linda has texted to say i am watching your programming tears and with pain in my heart for the men on your show, for everyone affected by these cowardly crimes. Safia says this item is harrowing and heartbreaking but also positive and inspiring. Derek says my son is 18, i worry for him,i derek says my son is 18, i worry for him, icant derek says my son is 18, i worry for him, i cant comprehend the pain and loss these dads feel but we need to stop knife crime and the fashion to carry knives and my heart is heavy watching the hedge. Soucaze this is such an important issue, my admiration and respect is huge for these men, this shows how much more needs to be done to fully support Youth Services and support for the families and friends of those affected. I want to ask how you felt you were treated by the criminal justice bill system, we will not necessarily go into details of the cases but there are men here who saw perpetrators charged, convicted and jailed and people who saw people charged and then acquitted. Broadly, how do you feel you are treated by the criminal system . I feel we didnt getjustice, i feel let down. I feel brokenhearted. Even though there were five perpetrators, four. I will pose you in case you get into any details, and i dont wa nt get into any details, and i dont want you to. That is fine, four got charged, one was acquitted due to lack of evidence and, yeah, it is not a healing process for me at this moment in time. My surname is no longer here at this present moment and they still have their children. My and they still have their children. My son is no longer here. There isa my son is no longer here. There is a big hole in my heart. It is really a knock on effect on me as a person, and the rest of my family, and the rest of his friends. person, and the rest of my family, and the rest of his friends. I think the system is skewed in favour of the system is skewed in favour of the accused. I do, very much so. I think that the system doesnt seek the truth, the system prosecutes against evidence. So if the evidence is insufficient, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist, but if it is not found, you get these decisions by juries that appear to be very strange. So from our perspective, we feel we got partialjustice, not full. For those who feel they got full. For those who feel they got full justice, what full. For those who feel they got fulljustice, what difference does that make . In my case, the perpetrator was 15, when we went to court they said apparently it is not about your son, it is about the perpetrator, which was very hard to hear. You have to go in and it is all about him, down to his needs. He got 16 years, a bit ofjustice, but i have a life sentence. So. There is your justice. I have a life sentence. So. There is yourjustice. Personally, i do not think so. I am the same as paul. We travelled in the same card coming over and we we travelled in the same card coming overand we said we travelled in the same card coming over and we said this very same thing, when you become a criminal, the law protects you, in a crazy little way you are protected by the law, because, for example, the 17 year old, i cant discuss it because everybody has been found guilty, when he was sentenced the judge said to him, had you have been 18 today, i would have given you 25 years. Which tells me that this pathetic system of because you are 15. At 15 and 18, you have the same comprehension of right and wrong and consequences for your actions, so i dont understand why, because he was 17, he got 16 years, but had he have been 18, which would have been eight months off his birthday, he would have got 25 years. And that is hard for a parent to see that. It is only because you didnt kill my son when you were older that you got last. didnt kill my son when you were older that you got last. I will read a couple of statements if i may, because im required to. The home 0ffice because im required to. The home office says it is taking action to tackle Violent Crime, including recruiting 20,000 new Police Officers over the last three years, making it easy for that you stop and Search Engine ditch and investing 10 million to increase the number of officers carrying tasers, and the home office announced an additional 20 minute penalty tackle panty lines. That is not the issue. More Police Officers is the issue. To tackle county lines. The labour party is pledging to introduce a Youth Service guarantee which they sable provide young people with activities to build aspiration, develop social groups and empower them to improve their lives. Martin, you will have heard the argument that there are not enough youth clu bs, that there are not enough youth clubs, Youth Services, cuts to various sectors since 2010. I will not ask you about policy because thatis not ask you about policy because that is not my area, but what you think we can do to reduce the number of crime victims . It is a very difficult issue and i think the problems stem from the society we live in, including inequality, lack of understanding, lack of wanting to share our own burdens. I think what young people need is consistent nurturing relationships with people they trust and care, the opportunity to develop their full potential, not just a parental thing but societal. We need the opportunity to communicate effectively. I think what we see is lots of inequality, people want to feel significant and do things which are incredibly dangerous. You ask a young person why they carry a weapon and they can give you reasons, and they make sense to that skewed mentality, that skewed belief system, because that is the way they have been brainwashed to believe they had to be, that is how men behave, that is how men behave, that is what people do, that is how it is where i am from. That cant be right, it cant be right in society, and we need to challenge those understandings and make society a fairer and more open pace, we need to discuss how all agencies can Work Together so we can put together parents, communities, social services, education, put together parents, communities, socialservices, education, law enforcement, local and Big Government together and listen to each other, does everyone agree . I work very closely with young people andl work very closely with young people and i actually worked with the young people who murdered quamari, i was working in the same centre that quamari attends as well, we go into schools and have been working on this for a long time. One of the things we mentioned was men not being able to let young boys not knowing their right of passage to being a man. Lots of men have lost their voice as men, young boys growing up of lost their direction of being men, and when i speak directly to young people, one of the things they make quite clear as they do not feel safe and they do not feel safe that adults protect them and something happens, now they are protecting themselves. Going further they would say that an older would protect them, and older young person. If you are looking at an older young person to look after you or protect you, he can guide you anywhere, but there is a big gap between young people and adults arenta between young people and adults arent a problem with society and arent a problem with society and a problem with society labelling young people as if they raise themselves. Young people have either seen themselves. Young people have either seen something, heard something, something has been missing in their lives that has allowed them to say i need to carry a knife and protect myself all do something stupid, at the lack of consequence and the lack of consequence and support from Youth Services in schools, lots of people to realise that Youth Services are teaching adolescents and how they are changing and developing, teachers are taught to curriculum, they are distant from young people and dont know how to nurture young people. Not all teachers. There are some great teachers, but the training for teachers, but the training for teachers is a different training syste m teachers is a different Training System and young people need more support in terms of development and how consequence and their relationship with other people. Lack of positive role models. That is that mum and dad. It is everybody. It started home, definitely. I will read these final messages, one text says these men are so brave, i have never thought about the difference between grieving is a man as opposed to a woman. The loss of a child, brother or sibling hurts regardless of gender, thank you for sharing. This text says i am a doctor in the north west of england dealing with similar situations, i am watching this with tea rs situations, i am watching this with tears in my eyes, men should be allowed to cry. Mark says these m essa g es allowed to cry. Mark says these messages are so powerful, i hope some young men watching see the impact on their role models, their heroes, and put the knife down. Well done to you all, a great example of a real man, i am very proud. Stella says watching these men is heartbreaking, such a powerful programme, i command them commend them for their strength at such a difficult time which is giving us a voice we dont usually hear. Thank you all for being so open and honest. If you want to talk to organisations to get help and support, you can go to this website. Bbc. Co. Uk actionline. The bbc understands that the german chancellor, angel merkel, has told borisjohnson that a brexit deal is overwhelmingly unlikely. She made the comments in a call with the Prime Minister this morning. Lets talk to norman smith, is the brexit chat over . The question is whether we have reached the moment, after three years, where the talks finally breakdown. Normally after these phone conversations there is a diplomatic agreement to paper over any differences, not a bit after the conversation between Angela Merkel and Boris Johnson which conversation between Angela Merkel and borisjohnson which seems to have gone spectacularly badly both in substance and in tone. Number ten had said it was, quote, a challenging conversation, a clarifying moment. The problem is basically it seems mrs merkel has told Boris Johnson basically it seems mrs merkel has told borisjohnson that Northern Ireland will have to remain in a Customs Union to avoid friction and the possibility of a hardboard between Northern Ireland and the rest of ireland. For borisjohnson it isa rest of ireland. For borisjohnson it is a no no, number ten says it means a deal will not only not happen now but will never happen, you can forget about any agreement. Of course, that follows a similarly difficult conversation with president macron on sunday night. Last night the eu issued a point by point rebuttal of the British Government case, now Angela Merkel as saying in effect it will not happen, you think we have reached the moment when the talks are about to breakdown. Then what happens . We head towards no deal, or an almighty tussle with parliament, mps determined to thwart what is clearly Boris Johnsons determined to thwart what is clearly borisjohnsons aim of taking us out without an agreement, and peace insisting there is a law against that, between facing a huge clash between Boris Johnson that, between facing a huge clash between borisjohnson Parliament Mps are insisting there is a law against that. Unco operative crusties thats how the Prime Minister has described Extinction Rebellion protesters who are demonstrating on the streets of london, demanding action on Climate Change. More than 320 people have been arrested so far in london at the start of two weeks of protests which have seen demonstrators blocking bridges and roads and gluing themselves to railings and vehicles. Conservationist and tv presenter Chris Packham is supporting the protests. The place you are a supporter of Extinction Rebellion and were taking pa rt Extinction Rebellion and were taking part yesterday. Why . When i was at school i learnt about the destruction of the rainforest, at six for my fans at the climate is warming up at the university that biodiversity was clasping. That was 30 years ago. And despite the fact we have a toolkit to address these issues, they have not been addressed. Like many people these days we have reached a point of frustration and we know that non violent direct action, the likes of which Extinction Rebellion are conducting on the streets of london, has a history of working. It worked with the suffragists, the human rights movement. It dramatises the issue so it has to be confronted. It issue so it has to be confronted. It isa issue so it has to be confronted. It is a way of generating tension so it cannot be ignored. When the Prime Minister because people like yourself uncooperative crusties, what would you say . I wish he had got out of the car. Yesterday i met farmers, scientists, teachers, grandparents, mothers and fathers, children. They are not uncooperative crusties, they are the concerned people of the world to have the finger more firmly on the pulse of its health when it comes to the environment. Let me read you this tweet, as you shut down main roads leading to London Hospitals i walk 20 minutes with somebody who has cancer so they could get to hospital for a procedure because the car could not get through. It might not sound long but when you have cancer, it is. Thanks, Extinction Rebellion. I cannot comment on that individual case. They suggest that the protests potentially risk lives. Lives are being lost in many other parts of the world. Watch the fires in california, the floods in southeast asia, Climate Changes killing humans all over the planet already. We are living in a cosy bubble at the moment. It is coming to bite us we had to do something, which is why i am keen to keen to talk to you about our missing peace campaign, Extinction Rebellion taking to the streets can terrify people, but we do not want to disempower them. We can make a difference and the missing piece we are not discussing at the moment is energy efficiency. In the uk we can better manage our energy to the extent that we could meet 11 of the targets the government had said to reduce Carbon Emissions by 2050, you and i and your viewers, if we install a smart metre. It is notjust saving money, it is evolving a Smart Energy System to make sure we deliver electricity when and where it is needed, it can distribute renewable energy, we will need lots more of this particularly when we move towards having more electric cars. We need these Smart Technologies to help us forward. Getting to carbon zero is not living in caves and eating cabbages, it is using smart new technologies, implementing them and doing something to make a difference. We dont have to wait for boris to stop calling us crusties and listen to us, we can do things ourselves, that is implicitly important. Thank you for joining is implicitly important. Thank you forjoining us and for your patience, Chris Packham. Gwen has e mails about the 13 men on the programme, i sent so much love and respect. My brother was lucky enough to survive a knife attack by the skin of his teeth. Thank you for your company. Bbc newsroom live is next. Have a good day. Sunshine and showers tend to give us some rainbows. Something that is often confused by a rainbow is this circumstantial arc, and optical phenomena high in the sky with some ice clouds, as cuts making the rainbow appearance. We had some showers in the forecast, you might see rainbows as showers move to the south east of england this afternoon. Further showers moving to scotland, Northern Ireland and the far north west of england. Strong and gusty winds for many in the west of scotland, gusts of up to 110 or 50 mph, temperatures 15 to 17 degrees. The band of showers in the south east could be heavier maybe thundery, sporty. They will move south east and tonight we are looking at more showers feeding on the brisk westerly wind. Through wednesday, more showers likely through the day, maximum temperatures of about 12 to 15 celsius, a bit cooler than today. Goodbye. Youre watching bbc newsroom live. Its 11 am and these are the main stories this morning a downing street source says brexit talks are close to breaking down after the Prime Minister and Angela Merkel spoke on the phone this morning. The german leader is said to have warned a deal was overwhelmingly unlikely unless Northern Ireland stayed in a Customs Union, following eu rules. A warning that a no deal brexit could result in government borrowing soaring to its highest level for 50 years and further austerity measures. Turkey says its ready to begin a military operation in syria as President Trump defends his surprise decision to pull out us troops. The Prime Minister calls Extinction Rebellion protestors uncooperative crusties as he urges them to stop blocking