Its time for dateline london. Hello, and welcome to dateline london. Im carrie gracie. This week, the peoples republic of china marks its 70th anniversary. Who is celebrating, who is not . And britains Top Court Rules against the british government, triggering another torrid week in westminster. My guests today David Aaronovitch of the london times, Vincent Magombe of africa international, chinese writer diane wei liang, and john fisher burns, veteran of the new york times. So, let us look first at china. Communist china is 70 this week. Beijing is decked in red flags, all rehearsed and ready for a giant military parade. But because the communist party does not like spontaneity at big moments, many things have been banned, including kites, balloons and pigeons. At 70, there is much for the peoples republic to celebrate. Under xi jinping, its outlived and outperformed the predictions of many and now looks more united and invincible than at any point in its history. Or does it . Diane, take it away. Well, 70 years. Its been a long journey for china. I would take it into two parts the first 30 years, and thats very much under mao, and then the last a0 years. Huge Economic Development. The first 30, china was one of the poorest countries in the world. When i was about five or six, i spent my childhood with my parents in a labour camp when china was going through all these political struggles. So this is the 1960s . The 1960s, cultural revolution, we had nothing to eat, people had nojobs, my parents had to give up their city jobs to go to a remote area in south west china to work on construction, Building Military facilities that were not even up to scratch for anything. And then, just even back in beijing, we again had nothing to eat, and every winter, we had chinese cabbages and you queue for it, a0 kilos, that is all you have every winter. And then we were given meat, one kilo per family of four. And you have a coupon at the beginning of the month, you would dash to the butchers. I dont remember everfinding meat in the butcher shop by the time we got there. So, that was then, angie divided china of the first 30 years of its 70 of the peoples republic of china, and then the subsequent a0 years. So bring it up to date, what is it now for someone like you who live throughout early experience, hows it look to look at china now . China now is not the china that i grew up in. China now has means more millionaires, billionaires than any other country in the world every year. It builds the longest railways, the fastest this and that. Chinas gdp has i37 fold in those 70 years. And the Life Expectancy in china, in shanghai is higher than in new york city. So now we have the worlds second largest economy, and this is what china had achieved in 70 years. In fact, in a0 years. So, in a way, very legitimate cause for celebration. Absolutely. And there will be the Largest Military parade planned. And, again, it is to celebrate its achievement. What is interesting is to see whether all the other leaders during these times will be honoured. So, china didnt get here just because of xi jinping. It wasnt realised yesterday. It had gone through different generations of leaders, different generations of chinese. Establishing china and working and chasing this dream. And that is something that i think all Chinese People would agree is worth celebrating. John, you also have a long personal experience of china as a reporter for the new york times, in fact, an unpleasant experience when you are kicked out in the mid 80s. You were there in the 70s, you were there again in the 80s, you were back last year, what do you make of the trajectory . Its probably an appropriate moment to quote the premier of china during my first five years in china, who, whilst attending the celebrations in paris for the french revolution in 1989, 200 years after the french revolution, was asked what he made of the french revolution. He said, it is too early tojudge. So i think the verdicts are not yet in. It is a story of light and dark. My own personal experience before i left, knowing very little of china, speaking very little chinese, one of the most eminent syanologists in the us at one of the Ivy League Universities cautioned me not tojudge china by my own standards, but by the standards of china and regard the cultural revolution. And i remember those words ringing in my years during those first five years, the cultural revolution was a great and noble human experiment. And when i crossed into china in april or may of 1971, at the midpoint of the cultural revolution, where some of the worst abuses were over, i went for a walk with my guide and interpreter along the pearl river on the first night and there was a body floating in the river. It was quite plain that whoever this was had been struck a severe blow to the back of the head. And i was pretty shocked by this, and went to take a closer look, and my guide assured me there was nothing to worry about because he had probably fallen in the river. And i said, but look at the wound on his head, and he said, perhaps when he fell backwards into the river, he hit a stone. And that was the beginning of my own reckoning of the cultural revolution. And there has been a good deal of credulousness on the part of the world in assessing these things. In the modern era, as there was for example. Yes, china has achieved extraordinary things, i saw them for myself for the first time in more than 30 years last autumn, and i watched the reporting from beijing very closely over a numberof years. I was astonished, nothing prepared me for what china has accomplished. But there are still at least a million, maybe 2 Million People in china in camps, the human rights record of China Remains absently grim. So i retreated to the formula of saying it is too early to tell. We will come back to some of that in a moment with everybody. I just want to bring in vincent and david. Vincent, you have less experience with china, but you have an interesting parallel experience or dimensions of your own on china. Firstly, you lived in the soviet union while it still existed for a decade as a student, and thereafter doing a phd, and then, interestingly, you have that experience of seeing china in africa, china going out again. Which of course it did in the 1950s under mao and it is out again. Give us your sense of the verdict right now on the 70th anniversary of the peoples republic. Of course, my earliest remembrance of what china was was when i used to hear about china, this great power that was the best friend of africa during the colonial times. If there is any other country, perhaps the soviet union, but china supported the liberation struggles in africa, fought, helped our people, they did not necessarily come to fight with us but they supported us very seriously. The next near experience was when i was in the soviet union. Of course, soviet union being a communist country, so is china. I could understand when i came here about 20 years ago, i did not understand why people were so surprised that china was emerging as a superpower. For gods sake, the soviet union, the communist china, they invested heavily in things like education, training, building infrastructure, technical production and so on. So, that by the time you have the soviet union collapsing and then you have the communist party in china becoming remaining and pretending to be communist, but it is actually one of the biggest capitalist enterprises in the world, they are ready to move forward. Now, the only thing, as an african, is today they have come back and they are really coming back very, very. When i say aggressively, i dont mean as aggressive as the west, coming with guns and colonising us and enslaving us and so on, taking our slaves to that place. But they are coming with the same motives, they want to take our mineral resources, they want to really exploit africa for themselves. Now, because of that history of the 50s when they helped us, African People are very blinded by that. We now see china as our best friends, and when we compare them with the west who exploited us, who took us as slaves, we think that china is very innocent. Now, ijust want to say one example of where, as a ugandan, i find china completely reprehensible. I was reading the other day, about a month ago, about an article in the wall street journal in the us, detailing how huawei, the same big company, has been providing technicians to the uganda police, to intelligence services, a flagship for us, this company was helping zambian, but also Ugandan Security services to tap into e mails, all types of social media, of people like us, i am one of the campaigners for democracy in uganda. China is building infrastructure, helping us to advance, but at the same time, it doesnt mind if the people its dealing with, governments like that of uganda, are killing us, they are torturing us. But who am i to ask a country that has no democracy, that really violates human rights every day, thats china, to ask it to respect human rights when dealing with uganda or africa . David, your take on all of this . My parents were communist, so when i was a child, there was a lot of talk about soviet union and china, and i remember actually arguments going on in the kitchen when the soviets and the chinese split about who was right about that. One of the funny things about the 70th anniversary is what are you actually celebrating on the 70th anniversary of the communist takeover . Why that anniversary . Because the country palpably is not communist, not in any sense that anyone would recognise back in the day of marxism and leninism. So you can imagine why they celebrate the chinese republic. That is what they are celebrating. Its 70 years of the founding of the peoples republic of china. Exactly, which is, ie, of communist china, not as china as a republic itself. And it is also the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen Square this year. So its a bizarre situation where what you have is aspects of the communist system which relate to a lack of liberty, and aspects of the capitalist system which relate to huge levels of Economic Growth and inequality. And yet we find ourselves in the position of going to shanghai and marvelling at a situation whereby Chinese People are not eating cabbage for the whole winter and so on, and where they are actually my daughter was in canada, vancouver, three weeks ago and almost all the tourists in that area are chinese. A situation unimaginable 40 years ago. But this is exactly what the celebration was interesting, and china is an interesting case. Its very important. China became china today by embracing capitalism, Deng Xiaoping, who was the paramount leader after mao zedong, tapped into the individual entrepreneurship spirit of the chinese, that is how china became so powerful economically. So now what xi jinping is trying to celebrate is what he calls the china model, that is part of capitalism, part of communism, its the way that it is part controlled and yet Economic Development model, and he is trying to also sell this to the rest of the world. We only have a couple of minutes left to talk about the celebration or marking of the adversary, so we need to look at the competing narrative, and you will get a few seconds to tell me the competing narratives. We all know there will be protest marches in hong kong on the 1st of october, they will be wearing black, we may see tear gas. We have many hundreds of thousands if not more muslims incarcerated in camps in changing, there is a us china trade war, there is a fast flowing economy in china, how much does the competing narrative of china plus back problems undermine the celebrations . Diane, how much does it undermine the celebrations for people inside china . Nothing is going to undermine the celebrations. It is very much controlled, very much planned, everything will go according to plan. It will be beg, it will be glamorous, and tremendous. But not to say china does not face challenges. Challenges are immense. The challenges china is facing now that xi jinping are a lot more difficult than bigger than for the previous leaders. And we are talking notjust about these things you mention, but also for china it is very much where china is going to go in terms of the International Stage now. It is the challenge for china, a challenge for the rest of the world. I think its worth remembering tje speech that Deng Xiaoping gave at the beginning of the open door policy, the secret speech the central committee, where he said, and i am brutalising somewhat, he said, dont get me wrong here, i dont like these barbarians much more than you do, but we can exploit them, develop them, develop our economy, but the last minute objective is not just to get rich, it is to get powerful and returned china to the place it occupied at the end of the ming dynasty, which is to say the first place. So before we reach any verdict we will have to see how china uses its military as well as its economic power and in the end the verdict will not rest with us but with the Chinese People who will have their say as they have had with every dynasty that has ruled china, every dynasty has ultimately been overthrown. Vincent, very briefly,. Just last week we were trying to research china, and one thing you discover about china in africa, interpretive services, one thing we can celebrate as they celebrate is helping us to build this infrastructure, they have really helped us move forward. But i think the biggest lesson africa can take from china is, i wish our leaders were that enthusiastic to make africa great, you cannot take that away from the chinese leadership. David . I defer to my colleagues because i know you want to move on. You are allowed to speak on the next subject for your good behaviour brexit made british constitutional history again last week. The countrys top court ruled unanimously against the government to declare the suspension of parliament unlawful. The Prime Minister returned home from the United Nations to face the fury of the commons, but gave as good as he got. And while this bitter war of words was underway, a new brexit deal was not. The clock ticks on its now less than five weeks till the governments brexit deadline. David, what did you think about the events of last week, how constitutionally important was the Supreme Court ruling . Very constitutionally important. It is true that as the Supreme Court said, what the government had done was test our system up to its limits and beyond, and after they declared the issue justiciable, in other words they said it is something they could rule upon, the more important part of what they said was, and parliament is sovereign and you cantjust muck around with it in the way in which the government did. Knocking up to balmoral on a dodgy basis because the prorogation of parliament was not on the basis that the government formally gave but as part of its brexit negotiation. That is part one. Something has been established in the british constitution which probably was already established but the government it was. And its now back. The second part is the continuing crisis of firstly whether anyone actually thinks the government is seriously trying to get a new withdrawal deal agreement out of europe, my understanding is as far as i can see from the people involved, is that they are not really, there isnt one, europe doesnt think there is one. That brings them back to what Parliament Said which was, you cant crash out without a deal, which means you must ask for an extension. The government position is still formally we will not ask for an extension because we are going to get a deal. We will be out by the 31st. The problem is, if they dont get a deal, which people think they wont, they are faced with the dilemma, do we break the law in which case the Prime Minister goes to prison, probably they wont, so probably they will have to ask for an extension and that means there will probably be a general election after the extension is agreed and when they try to get into a new period of discussion. So we are still in the position of not knowing precisely what will happen. What we have had is a gigantic push by the government in a bit of game theory, which is a huge great bluff freely, which is yes, we are going for no deal so you better give us what we want otherwise we will shoot ourselves in the head and shoot you a little bit in the foot while we do it. If people dont believe that, then we will get to the extension. And then what happens after that, what would happen in a general election in this country, absolutely nobody knows take no notice of anyone who tells you they think they do. Does anyone disagree around the table with that summing up of events . I think something very fundamental happen in the Supreme Court this week, and i would say to the opposition parties be wary of what you wish for. Because the principle established this week could very well come back to haunt a radical reformist labour led government, and i cant see how we can have on the one hand parliamentary sovereignty and on the other a Supreme Court which has given itself the right of. The main point i would like to make, as they say in the National Football league in america, time out. It seems to me there is one thing we could all agree on in a sea of uncertainty, this is a country fundamentally divided. It seems to me there is one thing we could all agree on in a sea of uncertainty, this is a country fundamentally divided. 0ur Political Parties are divided not just between themselves but within themselves, and we need a mechanism of some kind to belay this issue until we are no longer a country divided and i think thats not impossible because at the start of this process we have, even if borisjohnson gets an agreement, he has another perhaps ten years of negotiating to shape the future form of our relationship with europe. And it seems to me that is a period of time in which the country could rethink and turn back and rejoin, and it shouldnt be beyond the wit of the constitutional experts to fashion something which leaves this issue open. I am seriously amazed that somebody from a western country, africa look up to you people in the west here. Big mistake. If you were living in my country where Supreme Court, the highest court in the land is determining, for example, during elections, the government has rigged elections, and then the Supreme Court says here is what the president wants to do and does it, you would be happier. For you to question the independence of the judiciary in any country. Vincent, just to be clear, you are amazed by whatjohn said, not by what you saw the Supreme Court decide . I am also happy with what the Supreme Court decided, because who is johnson, for god sake . He isjust one of the citizens of britain. Who is he to think he can go above the lawjust for his political interests, he wants to be Prime Minister then continue abusing everybody else but also making sure the laws that are taken or the judgements of the Supreme Court are irrelevant. I think i love what i am seeing right now in britain because it teaches us a lot of lessons. Whatjohn said about this country being divided, it is very interesting. In my view, i dont see the healing process, what i see is actually borisjohnson for example, he is very much utilising the divisiveness of the country, he is enticing utilising the dividednness of the country, he is enticing his party point out there has been a lot of Strong Language on all sides. But in an effort of pushing for an election, this is how he hopes he will win the election, we have seen this in america with donald trump, this is to appeal to the base of his own supporters. Brexit in itself, unless it can be resolved, it will just divide the country further because there will be a general election and from what i can tell the tory party is going to bank on the dividedness to win this election. So brexit is a tool in a way and no deal is a tool. And in the last minute we have left, what you did not say earlier was and we will have a vote of no confidence next week. So just to touch on that, is that a possible outcome . It is. The government has no majority. It is quite interesting because it is true parliament as a whole does not have confidence in borisjohnson. That is true. It is also true that parliament has a whole does not want an election and actually cant have one before october 31 by my understanding. So it is conceivable a vote of no confidence will pass. The problem is, gaming the timing of a general election, because i go back to it, if you look at almost any set of polls which you have going at the moment, because of the way in which third and fourth parties are coming up through and the way the first past the post system becomes at a certain point highly geared, we have no idea what the result would be. Well, thats the point on which we have to end. Brilliant panel. Thats it for dateline london for this week were back next week at the same place, same time. Goodbye. After what has been a wet weekend in the uk, things have been drying out over recent hours but we start off on a the but we start off on a chilly start on monday mornin the the chilly start on monday morning the brain is set to return. Some missed patches, sunshine bidding in. And in the rain sets in the south west of england, parts of wales, midlands, some of that fringing up into the south of Northern Ireland by the end of the day. Some high ground in wales could see a further 70 metres of rain, the ongoing risk of loading and disruption, some brisk winds as well and that what weather continues to pile north eastward is out of wales into northern england, parts of east anglia, getting into southern scotland, some heavy showers chasing on. A mild night in the south but quite a chilly start to Tuesday Morning in the northern half of scotland. Tuesday brings more rain for many. By wednesday, it is going to feel significantly cooler. This is bbc news. Welcome if youre watching here in the uk or around the globe. Im reged ahmad. Our top stories saudi arabias Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman says he takes full responsibility for the murder of journalist jamal khashoggi, but denies ordering the killing. The bbc speaks to a former ukrainian prosecutor about allegations donald trump put pressure on ukraine to dig up dirt on a potential president ial rival. Running street battles in hong kong as protesters prepare to disrupt chinese celebrations to mark 70 years of communism. And well meet the recipient of this years bbc world news komla dumor award