Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240714

Now on bbc news, Stephen Sackur speaks to microsofts president brad smith on hardtalk. Welcome brad smith on hardtalk. To hardtalk, i Stephen Sackur. Welcome to hardtalk, i Stephen Sackur. Remember the time when the internet was trumpeted as the tech tool that would deliver us a golden age of knowledge, freedom and democracy . Now, we are in a darker, more cynical place, the digital revolution has generated fears about lost privacy, mass surveillance and systemic misinformation. Had the corporate titans of tech failed us . My corporate titans of tech failed us . My guest today is brad smith, president of microsoft. How do we ensure our astonishing technological advances are harnessed for good, not harm . Brad smith, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, nice to be here. You have served an extraordinary amount of time at microsoft, the best part of three decades. You have seen the evolution of our attitudes towards Information Technology and the internet in particular. I refer to the great positivity, the optimism in the early years. Would you agree that these days we are much more anxious and fearful about what the internet does, and how it might betray some of our values . internet does, and how it might betray some of our values . I think thatis betray some of our values . I think that is the case. We live in an age of anxiety overall, i would say. We talk about the forces that are disrupting our lives, and even when were not talking about technology, when were talking about trade, globalisation, income inequality, were talking about forces that have been unleashed by technology. We do live in a time when technology is both a tool and a weapon and we need to address both sides of that coin. Interesting you use this could raise, you have written a whole book, tool, and weapon. Let address this notion of the internet being a weapon. Who is to blame for the weaponisation . In some sense we should look all around us. I would look first and foremost at governments that are weaponising technology, we have authoritarian regimes launching cyber attacks, disrupting on a single day a third of all the nhs hospitals in the united kingdom, but it is broader than that. We see cyber criminals, concerns about oui than that. We see cyber criminals, concerns about our privacy from unintended consequences. One grouping you left out there where the tech giant corporations themselves, of which you are a representative, a very senior one. Is it not the time that the tech giants, and of course in the western world there are other big five, which include microsoft, and we can list the others later, these tech giants became too big, too powerful, too full of hubris. I dont know if the tech giants are too big and powerful, but we all need to step up. We need to think more proudly, assume more responsibility, the Industry Needs to mature and acknowledge explicitly the challenges that technology has created, and not just challenges that technology has created, and notjust the benefits. Ido want created, and notjust the benefits. I do want to talk about the revolution, because it is germane to the microsoft story itself. It was not signed a god in the mid 90s that many people studying the tech sector refer to microsoft as the evil empire. You were the first of these giant companies that ruthlessly exploited technology to dominate a marketplace. Looking back, do you think that was a mistake . The attitude the table by microsoft . We made more than our share of mistakes. I think it is an interesting story, because we had to learn, part of what we had to was to look in the mirror and see ourselves not as we wanted to see ourselves but but the way other people us. We had to learn to connect with the world, we needed to assume more responsibility, to compromise and except regulation as it was imposed on us, and in that story, i do think there are parallels for the tech sector as a whole today. It was tempting of course, this was personified by bill gates more than anyone else, attempting to see this geeky extraordinarily Smart Business leader in a new enterprise, tech oriented, who really was in it for the purity of developing the knowledge, but of course, bill gates wasnt really like that at all, just as Mark Zuckerberg more recently is it really like that at all. He is not just the uber it really like that at all. He is notjust the uber gig, he is a ruthless businessman out to suck every dollar of profit he can from his dominance of the market. Every dollar of profit he can from his dominance of the marketlj every dollar of profit he can from his dominance of the market. I would not endorse a statement that broad. What i would suggest is in the world of technology, people Start Companies with a great idea and then moving very fast, and one of the lessons to be learned is that while it is important to move fast, one should never move faster than the speed of thought, and i think if you look at the history of digital technology, it has had a tendency at times for companies to move fast, the old slogan was move fast and break things, and the old slogan was move fast and breakthings, and i the old slogan was move fast and break things, and i think the new slogan. Just interrupts you for a second, do you think microsoft was guilty of that, in its determination in its guilty of that, in its determination in its determination to absolutely dominate and rule the operating market for pcs . I think what we learned is that we have to move more broadly. There is a singularity of focus that you often find it very Successful Tech Companies and microsoft would be among them. And then you reach a point where you just have to recognise that the impact you are having on others, other people in your industry, the world as a whole, is so much greater that you have to step back and internalise that, and that is the key to accepting more responsibility. Interesting, so if thats the case that big attackers act today, do you understand the calls that are being made across the political spectrum right now for the breakup of the biggest companies, and if youre going to need them, it would be amazon, apple, alphabet, thenit would be amazon, apple, alphabet, then it would be microsoft, and facebook. I am going to quote elizabeth warren, the hopeful democratic candidate, calling for the breakup of those companies because they fundamentally threaten the balance of power in our democracy. I do believe we need to, i will say, strengthened the democratic side of the balance of power in democracy. I dont believe that you dont need to break companies up, i do believe that is the best fastest path to restore the power that the government, especially the democratic governments, elected by the public, should have. We learned from microsofts own experience that while the government in our case, 20 yea rs while the government in our case, 20 years ago actually pursued a breakup of the company, it could accomplish what it wanted and needed without doing that, and you can move a lot faster as a government to do with a different way. Lets talk about the role of regulation, or as you put it in the book, guard rails, the idea that you can find a way of working, private sector, the big Tech Companies, working alongside the state government, to develop meaningful, effective guard rails to ensure the public is well served. Tell me what you think these guard rails should look like, so we dont have that we dont have today . 0ne have that we dont have today . One should start by asking what problems we want to solve and then you create guard rails to solve each one. We look around the world today, there are plenty of Technology Problems that need to be sold. There are issues around privacy, issues around cyber security. There are issues around the use of Artificial Intelligence in Say Something like facial recognition. There are economic issues, especially the impact that technology is having on jobs in the future of the economy. And in some places in the world there are some guard rails in place, say in europe, around Something Like privacy, but almost everywhere you look, i think we need additional guard rails, we need the guard rails that will be essential for the decade ahead, the 20 20s, and we need to Start Building does now. Lets get specific, starting with privacy and data, because Good Business Technology Allows every single one of us to use our smart phones and our laptops and our ta blets to phones and our laptops and our tablets to acquire, use information, and thereby to also provide information about ourselves to Tech Companies such as yours. In the United States, there is a law which in essence says that Tech Companies cannot be held legally responsible for online content that is on their platforms. Is it your contention that that must now change . Actually, yes. Section 230 of the Communications Decency act, created in the 1990s when the internet was just taking off and the notion was the best way to enable the internet to ta ke the best way to enable the internet to take off was to give to internet Interactive Services immunity thats a journalist, networks, Interactive Services immunity thats ajournalist, networks, radio and television had traditionally faced by co nta ct. Television had traditionally faced by contact. I dont think that one should just aggregate what was created in the 90s because i think that would probably virtually suffocate social media, but the time has come to accept that there needs to be some exceptions and some new responsibilities for companies, including our own, responsibilities for companies, including ourown, in responsibilities for companies, including our own, in this space. You say including your own but this a sceptic in me is thinking, he was one of the top officials and microsoft who is suggesting a change, making himself look like a public spirited corporate leader but actually a change that will hamstring facebook, and twitter, and some other content carriers, but wont really affect microsoft at all. This is an easy hit for you. Wont really affect microsoft at all. This is an easy hit for youlj all. This is an easy hit for you. would say there are two things to consider. First, one of the largest social Media Networks in the world is linked in, goodbye by microsoft. It has a 650 million Members Around the world, so i think it is always important for us to make sure that we are willing to assume the responsibilities we suggest for others, and second, at the end of the day, i dont think we should pursue a path that fundamentally impairs the ability of any service to deliver the value that people really expect, that they rely upon, whether it is from us or anyone else. This needs to be an exercise in identifying how we protect what we value, but create more responsibility, and there are real practical steps under way this year to do that and i think those are the things we should learn from. Lets talk about the degree to which the big Tech Companies, and governments, are capable of cross collaboration, of working on these problems together. I am very mindful, that for example, earlier this year, after the terrible mass shooting in christchurch new zealand, new zealand Prime Minister and the french president trying to work together, brought companies such as your road on board to get a sort of clarion call declaration together of collaboration to ensure that heat speech, for example, is taken down, taken off the internet, but frankly, all of these months later, there is no sign that that has actually worked. I actually think we are making important progress and we will continue to make important progress. I think tremendous credit is due to new zealand Prime Minister jacinda ardern, and president macron, and other leaders,. I happened to be in wellington, new zealands capital two weeks after the christchurch terrorist attack, and had the opportunity to sit down with the Prime Minister, and the work that began led two months later to the christchurch call. By donald trump and the Trump Administration do not seem to be interested in joining this initiative, and if the United States wontjoin, what on earth use is it . It interesting. In the world today if your goal is to actually change the features or conduct of American Technology companies, you actually dont always need the United States government. Look at what happened in the wake of christchurch. New zealand moved, australia passed a new law, just two weeks after that, the uk law changed, and there have been a number of aspects of our Services Change that were exploited by the christchurch terrorist in a way that we wa nt christchurch terrorist in a way that we want to never see exploited again, all without the support of the United States government. again, all without the support of the United States government. I have to be honest with you, when you tell me that the New Zealanders are on board and the scandinavians in the french, and maybe the uk government, it doesnt really surprise me, it seems to match the rhetoric that we hear from politicians in seems to match the rhetoric that we hearfrom politicians in those countries are. I would be much more interested and frankly impressed if you told me that the russians, the chinese, the North Koreans and indeed donald trump and the americans were signing up to what you have at some points called the Geneva Convention that is needed to control Information Technology across the world. These countries are the problem, and they are not interested in your solution. actually think one should consider it from a different perspective. We need to build coalitions of the willing, especially among the worlds democracies. There are roughly 75 democratic nations in the world, roughly half the worlds population lives within them. So for example, underthe leadership of a number of western countries, including the uk, france, germany, people came together in paris last year to sign a new cybersecurity agreement. All 28 members of the european union, 25 of the 27 nato members, the us was missing, but progress is advancing. Address my weight a point about the other people who were missing. In 2017, if id been in a british hospital when they had a british hospital when they had a british hospital and they had the Computer Systems wiped out by a malware attack that came from north korea, it would be no great consolation to know the scandinavians have signed up know the scandinavians have signed up to know the scandinavians have signed uptoa know the scandinavians have signed up to a Geneva Convention for internet safety. You arent telling me, why we continue to have any confidence in the security of our data, of our information flows when we know that there are people in north korea, russia, china and a host of other countries committed to developing ever more sophisticated cyber warfare. That that is exactly the point. If you are going to defend the worlds democracies from the worlds authority regimes, you Start Building an alliance of the worlds democracies. Its the basic principle that led to the creation of nato, its the basic principle that one world war ii. Its a basic principle we need to defend the worlds democracies from these authoritarian attacks. Interesting point, but maybe you are being a little naive . In 2013, you and many others would be tacked were called into crisis meetings under the 0bama administration can be discovered thanks delete that edward snowden, that the us state, the government of america, your government, its National Security agency, were illicitly tapping into Electronic Communications for their own National Security purposes, the million of millions of people accessed. Why would any government in the west trust america . accessed. Why would any government in the west trust america . I think one should have some faith in democracy and be vigilant to protect it. I actually think, as we described in our book, the snowden disclosures in 2013 were one of the great inflection points the technology of the past decade. And it did awaken a soldier things we did not know, it led us as a company to file not one but four lawsuits against the 0bama administration. We went to the Supreme Court of the United States, we took steps that lead to greater Legal Protection is. And that is the other side of the coin. If we protect our rights and democracies and protect ourselves from authoritarian cyber attacks, thatis from authoritarian cyber attacks, that is not going to solve the problems of the world but it is fundamental to the progress we made. Im sensing a passion for this, but im sensing a passion for this, but im also wondering whether you are not being deeply naive and perhaps some people watching this thing perhaps you are being perhaps even a little misleading. Weve established that state actors across the world, frankly, on their record, cant be trusted to follow your principles. But also, the private sector has repeatedly failed to follow your principles. We only have to think about facebook and the data released to Cambridge Analytica and the fact that the lens of facebook users werent to know that their data was being used for political purposes. We can think about that. We can also look at microsoft and even in the recent past you have been reprimanded in ireland, there is a report showing linkedin, one of your companies, was applying algorithms to personal data to suggest Network Connections addressing e mail addresses, accessing e mail addresses, accessing e mail addresses, of millions of people who had no idea that they had been accessed. And that was a linkedin responsibility. Dutch officials pointing to microsoft collecting personal data without informing users, why should we trust any of the actors in this sector . users, why should we trust any of the actors in this sector . I dont think that this is about sitting back and just hoping that people do the right thing. I think it is about engaging people, perhaps most especially the public at large, so that we all take the steps to ensure that we all take the steps to ensure that the right thing is done. I think that the fundamental point you are making actually is a valid one. 0ne are making actually is a valid one. One of the stories we share in the book is a meeting with president 0bama in the white house in 2013. I was there. And as we in the tech sector were putting the white house to put in place more checks and bala nces to put in place more checks and balances on the nsa, there came a moment in that meeting when president 0bama looked at us and saidi president 0bama looked at us and said i have a suspicion the guns will turn. You all in the tech sector have as much in the game is a government, there would be a day when the demands you are trying to place on the government will be placed on you. He was right. It was a prescient observation. If you are accepting the president dominic president that premise, let me bring it back to the individual, and older people watching and listening to this interview. We all generate an enormous amount of data, of us. Why cant we have ownership of that data . At least why cant we have ownership of that data . At least have why cant we have ownership of that data . At least have a transparency as to what our data is being used for, and by whom . I actually think thatis for, and by whom . I actually think that is something that is an important goal, and it needs to be a reality around the world. So, when . Interestingly, for any country that is today in the european union, that is today in the european union, that is the law of the land. It became the law of the land in may, 2018. People in the eu have the right to go to people in the eu have the right to gotoa people in the eu have the right to go to a Digital Service and find out what information a company has about them. They have the right to correct it if it is wrong, to delete it, to move it to another provider. And i will say we need to bring those roads to the rest of the world, and losses they microsoft today is the only company in the tech sector that said, last may, we would take the rights that european laws gave the european customers and we would extend that to all of our customers, everywhere in the world. And we found that customers, people everywhere, actually value these rights. In the future, Artificial Intelligence appears to be the next grades have been the sort of tax story. Next great step. In the west, it seems ai and innovation within it is being driven by the big Tech Companies, in china, it seems the state is committing itself and vast resources to investment in al. Which approach do you think is going to win out . I think at the end of the day you are going to see an ongoing competition between both approaches. I dont think this is the kind of thing where one approach is going to win and one approach is going to lose. I actually think the real question shouldnt be who will do better, the us or china . The real question is how do we ensure that Artificial Intelligence becomes a little bit more like electricity in the sense that it needs to be a tool that any company, any government, any nonprofit, can use anywhere. We shouldnt wanted to be an invention that drives wealth or income or power to just a couple of places on the planet. In the course of your long career, and having seen what has happened to the tech sector, what has happened to private businesses, how states have used and misused Information Technology, are you confident that we, human beings asa you confident that we, human beings as a species, are going to develop autonomous thinking machines in a responsible way . I think you just asked what may well be one of the single most important austins for our generation of people questions. Because think of the terms that you put it. With a first generation in history of humanity thatis generation in history of humanity that is giving machines the power make decisions that historically could only be made by people. If we get it wrong, every generation that follows will likely pay a price for our mistakes. That means we should be optimistic or pessimistic . I actually think it means we should be determined. It is a fundamental importance that we get these issues out on the table, we enable people to understand them, we start to bring together not just to understand them, we start to bring together notjust technical people from the tech sector, but people from the tech sector, but people from the tech sector, but people from Broad Community is to terms, and enable us, especially within democratic societies, to put laws in place that at least increase the probability that we will get this right. So, optimist or pessimist . I am both, but most, i say it doesnt matter. It only matters that you are determined. We are determined to do what we can, to not just are determined to do what we can, to notjust think are determined to do what we can, to not just think about this from a technology perspective, it is like what we said in the book, we go to the vatican, we met with the wells religious leaders, with philosophers. If were going to ensure computers reflect the best of humanity, we need to ensure all of humanity, we need to ensure all of humanity is in this conversation. And wejust humanity is in this conversation. And we just have to stay on this every day. It was a great way to end this interview. Thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello once again. While some spots, particularly northern and eastern britain, started monday decently enough, eventually weather fronts piled in from the atlantic. Here we are on tuesday, you get the sense we may well be in for something of a repeat performance. In fact, tuesday could be one of the wettest and windiest days many areas will have seen for quite some time. In the first part of the day, it is the southern half of britain that is likely to see the very worst of the conditions on offer. As it take you on through the morning and on into the afternoon, you will notice some of those really dark blues and greens gradually work their way over towards the north and it will be a fairly slow process as well. That is why we think some spots widely could see 30 a0 millimetres of rain, others could get 70 millimetres of rain. Some of the gusts, 40, possibly even 50 miles an hour in exposed locations. Even in the north of scotland, it will be a windy day. And then later on we may welljust ramp up some rain and some stronger winds yet again. Initially into the south west, but then widely across the south and south east of england and. Wales. Here we are on wednesday, and once that side of the feature has worked its way after the near continent, actually wednesday is going to be one of the quieter days of the week. Once that wind and rain has cleared away from east anglia and the south east, then there is a fair amount of dry weather, i guess there will be a spot of fair weather in north scotland, not so much wind. You may feel like standing around in it, but probably not on thursday. If youve seen the forecast in recent days, these forecasts have sped up, it looks like they would hang around for the first part of friday, bar the far North Eastern corner of scotland, it looks like they clear the Eastern Shores of the british isles, leaving behind a drier prospect, although fairly late in the day for some. Then we may get some of those showers to Western Areas to give the odd longer spell of rain. And all the while, the wind is quite a significant factor on the day on friday. So essentially, it is a day of sunny spells with some showers but some of those showers banging together on many fronts to give some longer spells of rain. We are darkening some of these blues so i would be not at all surprising if you heard the odd rumble of thunder in the heaviest of those downpours. A top of 18. Welcome to newsday. Im rico hizon in singapore. The headlines as World Leaders meet for a special un summit on Climate Change, the teenage Climate Change activist, greta thunberg, launches a furious attack. How dare you . you have stolen my dreams and my childhood with your empty words. As Scientists Say Global Warming is accelerating not slowing down, what real action are countries taking . Well have the latest. Im kasia madera in london. Also in the programme the uk launches its biggest peacetime repatriation in history, to bring back hundreds of thousands stranded following the collapse