Now on bbc news, its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. South africas mandela led liberation struggle against white rule gave the country a special place in african hearts but continent wide respect and admiration is dwindling and south africa has again witnessed a surge in violent, xenophobic attacks on african migrants. My guest today is south africas minister for International Relations, Naledi Pandor, she is a longtime servant of the anc but is the anc failing to serve the south African People . Minister Naledi Pandor in cape town, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much and good afternoon. Minister, your country, south africa today looks desperately ill at ease with itself. Would you agree . No, i dont think so. I dont think ill at ease, i think south africa is confronted by many very difficult and challenging problems. But given its history, im not surprised that it is confronted by these problems. So i wouldnt characterise us in the way that you have, but i certainly admit that we are facing very deep and complex challenges, that we have to find solutions for. Well, i use the phrase ill at ease with itself because i think i and many people around the world find it quite hard to fathom how the country of mandela, the rainbow nation whose struggle we sawjust a generation ago for freedom, how it can now include so many people whom weve seen on our Television Screens joining protests, chanting, threatening with spears and saying, foreigners must go back to where they came from. Can you explain this feeling, this anger, this violence to me . Well, its difficult to explain, however, i do think that there are South Africans, particularly among those who do not have jobs or who very poor who feel an antipathy to all the large number of migrants from other african countries that we have in south africa. We do have, i think, a very Poor Administration of immigration, we have significant numbers of Illegal Migrants in the country, many take up positions in the Service Industry at very low wages, are not unionised and so antipathy has developed over several years. But would you not accept there are senior officials inside the government, inside the ruling anc who have fanned the flames of this xenophobia . Well, im not aware of senior government officials fanning flames. I do think there are leaders who have made remarks that i regard as unfortunate, but im not sure that one would say they are fanning the flames. There are Community Members who have been the ones behind much of the marshalling of this anger, there is a response from the community which i think is unwarranted, and cannot be supported. But saying that the community, and people, particularly poor people, are responsible for all of this without accepting the responsibility of senior officials, seems to be ignoring facts if you dont mind me saying. For example, the premier, said just a few months ago, i think some specific crimes are committed by specific nationalities. Drugs, for example. There are specific nationalities involved, Violent Crimes and murders, we must ask the question, he said, how do we have so many drug dens are operated by nigerians . Isnt that fanning the flames . Well, hes posing a genuine question, which our Police Service should answer and provide us evidence on. There have been many arrests of nationals from Different Countries across the world, notjust nigerians. And i think what we need to do is ensure that as south africas government, would you address crime, that criminals are arrested, that persons who have criminal records should not be allowed into the country and thus we must improve our Immigration Administration and ensure at entry we actually know whos coming in, that we have very good links to other countrys immigration assistance so that we dont find ourselves having persons into the country who come in essentially to commit a crime. This is something that is a responsibility for our border services, for our police and thus broadly for government. Minister, youre making it sound like your own government isnt able to control its own borders. Well, certainly borders, management has been very challenging problem, at the inception of democracy in 91i, south africa opened up for the first time and you had in the countries particularly in the south region and some in west africa and asia, a move in to south africa for Economic Opportunities so you had a large number of economic migrants. A very liberal refugee law had been adopted by south africas parliament. And so many of the economic migrants used asylum status as the rationale for seeking refuge and residence. Of couse t his isnt a new problem, we are mindful that we saw a surge in xenophobic, anti foreign violence in south africa in 2008, 2015 as well. And Human Rights Watch, for one inside south africa has said that your government has consistently, over that period, failed to implement measures to prevent it happening again. As the director of Human Rights Watch south africa said, merely condemning xenophobic violence isnt enough. The police should much more thoroughly investigate, arrest, and bring to justice those responsible. That is a profound failing, isnt it . Absolutely and i would agree with Human Rights Watch on that. We have had arrests of 794 people during this recent looting and the tax on persons. We also have found that of the injuries, the majority are South African. This is why we are actually asking ourselves questions as to, is this a criminal robbery, or is it an anti foreigner sentiment by South Africans . I think there is an antipathy, we cant deny that. You talked to foreign diplomats in south africa, i know, a few days ago, to explain in a sense, your feelings about what had happened. You talked about feeling embarrassment and shame. And you said this isnt so much xenophobia as afrophobia. That fascinated me, what you mean by that . Not one single european person, asian, or other group has been attacked. It has been directed at African People. From south africa, as well as from other african countries. Remember ten people died, eight were South African, two were zimbabwean. But afrophobia, you are suggesting there is something about the anger that South Africans are feeling towards some foreigners which is specific and directed at fellow africans. And ijust wonder, why that is particularly in the light of south africas history . Well, it essentially what happened was, with the advent of migrants from other african countries, it tended to be people who are poor and unskilled. Just as many, many millions of black South Africans are. And so, this Migrant Community displaced South Africans from what they thought would be new Job Opportunities for them. Hence this rise in the sentiment of anger. What we should do and are doing is provide education and skills to all people in south africa so that they can look for new opportunities and not compete or see themselves as in competition with other groups that come to our country. You are the International Relations minister, how are you going to repair relationships with other african countries which right now appear shot to pieces . Youve got the nigerian foreign minister how district describing how he was sickened by what he saw, you had to close your High Commission in nigeria, and they flew hundreds of nigerians back to their own country for fear of their lives, in south africa, you have a zambians who refused to play football again south africa, youve had other african nations expressed their deep disquiet with what is happening in the country, a World Economic forum in cape town, supposed to be about cooperation in africa which was ruined by the scenes that we saw. How are you going to repair all this damage . Well the contact and relations and engagement with nigeria and other countries has continued throughout this very sorry set of events. We have been speaking, the Nigerian Government in short that where our Mission Staff were threatened, that there was protection. We had nigerians leaving, its not hundreds, it is 159, we understand theres another few hundred that may leave tonight, but that over 600,000 who live in our country, have chosen to remain in south africa. So this notion that there is a huge exodus is not proven by reality and i continue to talk to all my colleagues, the foreign ministers, our president speaks to the president s of the various countries on the continent, we are putting every effort to ensuring that we do not have a repetition, the president has gone out, addressing the communities where we had this eruption of violence, it wasnt the entire south africa, it was part of it, and one township. But minister. So we also i would quarrel with the characterisation. Feel free to quarrel but i would put it to you that there is no way that you, nor your president can guarantee the future safety of foreign migrant african migrants in the country. The violence in your country is systemic, it is endemic, and theres no way you can guarantee their safety. We will make every attempt to improve the condition we believe, what we should do is draw communities together, much more than government may have done up to now, we are working with community organisations, we are working with religious leaders, religious organisations, so that all of us are South Africans and now South Africans Work Together to create improved conditions. So we are very active out there, seeking to ensure we dont have a repetition. But if we broaden the conversation and i take your point, one has to be realistic about the numbers of people involved in the violence against african migrants but one also has to be realistic about the wider picture of violence in south africa. I think last year 21,000 murders you have of major countries the highest murder rate in the world. You have terrible problems with criminal violence and also gender based violence. And your government appears completely unable to get a grip on the situation. Well, certainly, stephen, i cannot deny that there are those problems nor can i deny that gender based violence is one of the most serious challenges that we confront. Given what women have been saying all over the world, we are not alone. While the problem is certainly immense in our country, there is a whole set of sociological problems that we must address, matters of getting men to change their attitude towards women, building families that do not have violence within them, getting rid of the history and experience of an extremely violated population in our country, and that includes the discrimination we have had over history against women, in particular, black women and specifically working class and rural based black women. These are problems that do confront south africa, and i will not by any means deny that all of the crime that we are confronted by, the lack of economic opportunity, the fact that we do not control the large arms of the economy, and the work that we must do as the African National congress to overcome many, many centuries of discrimination and oppression, these are matters that face us and we will continue to address them, as the government of south africa and as the African National congress. I appreciate your frankness with me so let us continue to be frank because the figures suggest that, although south africa has been aware of this profound problem of gender based violence for a long time, and the situation continues to get worse. Last years statistics show that sexual assaults increased by 9. 6 , rapes were up by 3. 9 . So i come back to this point what, for you, as one of the most senior women in the South African government today, what do you believe your government should and must be doing to address this real time crisis . Well, there are people who have been calling for a tightening up of the law. There are women who were saying men who are found guilty of rape should be castrated. There are persons in our country arguing about introducing the death penalty, reintroducing the death penalty. So there are many, Many Solutions being put forward. What we believe should be done is certainly stiffer sentences, improved attention by the Police Service to complaints by women. We believe women should speak out. We believe that women should Work Together, we should support womens organisations, we should ensure that they have appropriate legal representation and we must change the mentality of men who have the attitude that women are their property. Much of the murder you speak of occurs in social settings, alcohol and drugs are associated with that. The femicide that we see occurs in the home. So there are many, many areas in which a greater resolve and action is necessary. We will start in our homes, we will ensure we tighten the law, where that should happen. Can i clear up one thing, minister, you said castration is being considered by some. Are you telling me that you, sitting as you do in the cabinet, as minister for International Relations, you think that castration is a realistic proposition in your own view as one solution to the gender based violence crisis in your country . I certainly do not. It is actually a total offence to our constitution. I am indicating to you the level of feeling that exists, and the anger among women in our country. I understand. Is it time, given that we are now talking about 25 years a generation, that the African National congress has been in power in south africa is it time to conclude that the anc, while it delivered liberation, has failed the people of south africa in terms of governance and a transformation of your country in the years since . Well, i would argue certainly that we have not failed. There are areas in which post apartheid south africa has done amazingly well. There are areas where we have had failings. Anybody who would imagine that youd have a country that has had colonialism and racism for centuries and then the awful apartheid would overcome that in 25 years is actually a dreamer. But i just look at the reality of south africa today, i look at the daily output in your media, your press, online reporting et cetera right now, while we talk about the profound crisis facing your country, whether it be the violence against foreign nationals, whether it be the criminality and the gender based violence and the poverty and unemployment that you have reference, and the poverty and unemployment that you have referenced, while all of that is the daily reality for south africa people, in the media there is a constant stream of stories about new allegations of corruption inside senior levels of government. Of course, weve got mr zuma who faces his charges. Weve got allegations now against president ramaphosa, although he denies them all. We have accusations that different ministers, whether in the zuma camp or the ramaphosa camp it seems the anc is constantly looking in on itself, and wrestling over patronage, while your country is in the most profound crisis. Stephen, as you know, it is you, the media person, who shapes the narrative, and you choose which part of the aspects of our society you will feature. You have not chosen research and innovation in south africa. You have not chosen the increase in the number of phds. You have not chosen the fact that women being a majority in higher education. You have not chosen black access to higher education, nor access to universal schooling for young people. So it depends on the narrative that the media selects. You selected that particular set of titles in order to present the most negative picture. That is your choice. I might choose another set. So it depends on what the media and yourself decide to highlight about south africa. With respect, it is not me who put former president zuma into a court, it is the South African legal system. It is not me who is now investigating Cyril Ramaphosa for alleged illegalities in donations. Of course, allegations he denies. It is your own Public Protector in south africa. Your system and nobody disputes this has endemic corruption within it. And patronage and corruption are things that have dogged the anc for the last two decades. I put it to you that the anc has become rotten. Well, i would disagree with you. I think that the anc has been the one, led by Cyril Ramaphosa, that has revealed the levels of corruptions that there are, and actually ta ken action to address it. So i would disagree with you. And i repeat, that the narrative that you choose is the one that you depict because there are many, many parts to south africa that you and other media never referred to. On this question of the politics of your country today, you have to take a view. There are some who say that jacob zumas allies, in and around government, are trying to bring down, undermine Cyril Ramaphosa. Where do you sit in what seems to be fundamentalface off between the zuma camp and ramaphosa . Where are you . I am a patriotic south africa who believes there is work to be done for our country and for the people of our country and i work hard to ensure improvement on a daily basis, in whatever position i occupy and whatever work i have to do. At what point, when you look at what is happening inside your country, might you have doubts about the ancs ability to deliver for your people . I am a staunch anc member and im a leader of the anc, so its failings are perhaps also related to my own failings. I will work always within the anc and i believe that it is the organisation that certainly has the credentials, as well as the ability, to unite our country, to draw our people together and to address the many challenges we have discussed during this programme. Naledi pandor, i do thank you very much forjoining me from cape town. I apologise for the delay on the line. Thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Hello. Thursday morning brings another rather chilly start but actually the emphasis over the next few days is for things to turn a little warmer and, with that, for the vast majority, it will be dry. High pressure firmly in charge at the moment, centred right on top of the British Isles for thursday morning. One or two pot patches underneath this high, with light winds and one frontal system bringing soem extra cloud with light winds and one frontal system bringing some extra cloud and the odd spot of rain in the far north of scotland. And thats where well have the mildest weather through the first part of the morning. Further south, one or two spots down around to all four degrees in the countryside. But acroos england and wales, we will see plenty of sunshine, once any early fog patches have cleared from the likes of north west england. Some early fog across parts of Northern Ireland but, again, some sunshine to come here. Where we start off cloudy in scotland, that cloud should break to give some spells of sunshine. There could be some areas of cloud there and lapping into east anglia and the southeast through the afternoon, but, generally speaking, a dry day for most and a slightly warmer one as well, with highs of 17 to 22 degrees. It stays fine as we go through thursday night. The cloud continuing to peel away from scotland. The winds picking up though, across western areas. So no realfog problems, i suspect, across the western side of the uk. Certainly not much fog affecting Northern Ireland. Slightly milder in the west as well. But further east some rather chilly weather to start friday morning, and the fog risk really pushing its way into south east scotland and north east england. But any of that fog will lift. Well see some areas cloud drifting northwards through the day but, generally, it is another fine day with quite a lot of sunshine and, again, it will be a little bit warmer. Widely 19 to 21 degrees, but somewhere in north east scotland, we could get all the way up to 2a degrees. And saturday looks warmer still. A feed of very warm air wafting up from the south. Relatively humid air as well. And then as we go through the weekend, we will turn our attention to the west because these frontal systems will be trying to make some inroads. For the majority, on saturday, we get away with a dry day, with quite a lot of sunshine. It will be quite breezy but there is just a hint there of a shower across the south west of england. Could see some of these into wales, Northern Ireland as well, late in the day. There could be the odd thunderstorm and some hefty downpours as well. But i think saturday, the warmest day generally. 21 degrees in glasgow. 25 or 26 towards the southeast. Some uncertainty about this but on sunday it looks like we will see showers and thunderstorms becoming more widespread. But there are some doubts aboutjust how far north and east they will push. Some spells of sunshine as well but it will start to turn cooler and fresher from the west. Im rico hizon in singapore. The headlines as indonesia battles forest fires in borneo and sumatra, pollution reaches critical levels, and the land still burns. The firefighters are still trying to put out the blaze, but its hard because the water sources are very dry because of the dry season that is occurring right now. The us secretary of state, mike pompeo, says the attack on saudi arabias Oil Facilities was an act of war. He again blames iran. Im kasia madera in london. Also in the Programme Every five minutes, a person dies from a snakebite