Today that he plans to stand as an independent if theres an election. Meanwhile, the governments Standing Firm about its decision to throw out the rebels. Many of the people who rebelled against the government are good people. I served in government with them, but they were told very clearly this was the consequence of their actions. That vote to trigger an election will take place this evening, but labour and the lib dems wont back it. So, what next . Also, this programme can reveal that 800 eu citizens have used the system set up in the wake of the windrush scandal to secure their status in the uk after brexit. Many have told us its because they dont trust the eu settlement scheme. I didnt want this to happen to another section of the community. What, we are going to have an italian windrush . Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. So, whos in charge . Opposition leaders ad backbench mps certainly for today what is your reaction to last nights events . You are aboslutely crucial because the pm wants to trigger a general election. He may not get it but thats what he wants. What do you think and what do you want . Email victoria bbc. Co. Uk or tweet us using the hastage victorialive. Lots of conversation to come. First the news with joanna. Good morning. A judge will rule today on whether borisjohnsons plan to shut down parliament for five weeks ahead of brexit is lawful. The case was brought to the court of session in edinburgh by a Cross Party Group of 75 parliamentarians, who argued the Prime Minister had exceeded his powers. The government says the issue should be a political, rather than a legal, one. The chancellor, sajid javid, will announce an additional £2 billion of brexit funding for whitehall when he sets out next years public Spending Plans later. Mrjavid will also confirm plans to increase spending on schools, hospitals, and the police. An independent report today says social care and prisons are the Public Services most in need. Reports from hong kong suggest the leader of the terrority, carrie lam, will today announce the formal withdrawal of the extradition bill. The controversial legislation was the catalyst which sparked three months of Anti Government demonstrations. The law would have allowed hong kong citizens to be sent for trial to mainland china. Rescuers have begun to reach areas of the northern bahamas devastated by hurricane dorian, with aerial images showing a trail of destruction. Seven people have been killed, but the countrys Prime Minister says that figure is expected to rise. The storm has moved away from the archipelago, but still threatens the east coast of the united states. That is the summary for now, back to victoria. Another extraordinary day in the commons ahead, with mps due to vote on a bill which aims to stop a no deal, followed by an attempt by the government to call an election for october which needs a two thirds majority in parliament. Meanwhile, 21 tory mps have been chucked out of the party, leaving borisjohnsons government well short of a majority in parliament. Lets get reaction to last nights events and talk thourgh what could happen in the next 24 48 hours with three conservative mps. Andrew bridgen, who is loyal to borisjohnson. Sir roger gale who has concerns about a no deal brexit but voted with the government last night. And Richard Benyon, a former minster who voted against and has been thrown out of the tory party. Explain to your audience how that happened, it is a text or a phone call or a tap on the shoulder . Im meeting on meeting with the Prime Minister yesterday, he made it clear that if we voted the way i did it was inconsistent with being a member of the Parliamentary Party so i was not surprised when i got an apologetic telephone call from my very nice whip to say this was likely to happen. What words did they use . He said, im sure you know why im calling and im sure youre aware that if you vote against the government tonight you will have the whip withdrawn. That was an hour or so whip withdrawn. That was an hour or so before . Yes, and then the chief whip rang me afterwards and said that id had the whip withdrawn. How do you feel about that . To be honest, i feel better today than i felt for the last few days when ive been in, i suppose, felt for the last few days when ive been in, isuppose, a felt for the last few days when ive been in, i suppose, a fair amount of turmoil. Im not by nature a rebel, i have been a serial loyalist. There are members of the cabinet, members of the party who have been serial rebels and have done so without a murmur. Idid rebels and have done so without a murmur. I did not find it easy and it was only relatively close to the vote that i decided to vote the way idid. Vote that i decided to vote the way i did. How do you think number 10 have handled all of this . i did. How do you think number 10 have handled all of this . I think it has been handled appallingly. I think the fact that you have at the heart of numberio think the fact that you have at the heart of number 10 is the Prime Ministers Senior Adviser and unelected foul mouth oaf throwing his weight around is completely unacceptable. I think if the Prime Minister does not have Dominic Cummings, the man im talking about, frogmarched out of downing street itself, then the chances are it will not be the tory rebels, as they are called, it will not be mr corbyn but mrcummings who will called, it will not be mr corbyn but mr cummings who will bring down this administration. Do you really believe that . Yes, i believe it is a very dangerous situation it has to stop why do you describe it as a foul mouthed oaf . Stop why do you describe it as a foul mouthed oaf . The stop why do you describe it as a foul mouthed oaf . The way he has treated some of those who have courteously tried to make their case to the Prime Minister in the last few days i believe ive had this from the horses mouth, to be utterly disgraceful. When people like mr clarke, conservative mp and former minister, one of the most courteous men, finds himself subjected to abuse, i believe that has gone too far and has got to stop. And if nobody does something about it, the 1922 committee. What kind of abuse for greg clarke . He was swoiii kind of abuse for greg clarke . He was sworn at and told that people like him are not relevant to the conservative party and this is a project and its got to go through. Im sorry, that is not the way the conservative party, not the party i joined, does its politics and it has got to stop. Do you agree with that, that it has been handled appallingly and that kind of abuse has to stop and that kind of abuse has to stop and that kind of abuse has to stop and that Dominic Cummings, the top aide to borisjohnson com should be frogmarched out of downing street question and with that but there is no place or a need for abuse. This is purely about the future of our country and the politics of the conservative party. Unfortunately what we have in the conservative party is some mps who have never come to terms with the referendum result in 2016 and some of the same people have not come to terms with the fact that Boris Johnson got an overwhelming mandate with our membership only a few weeks ago for the policy is now pursuing deposit when you voted three times against mrs mays Withdrawal Agreement, you were against mrs mays Withdrawal Agreement, you were not chucked out or deselected and did not have the whip withdrawn. That is unfair, isnt it . No, because there is a huge difference between voting against a specific government policy and voting to take the governments power away from the register and give it to somebody else. You voted down three times the government flagship policy that youre then promised id spent three years working towards. I did not vote to give power to the opposition to legislate. You rejected her flagship policy and got rid of her. What were talking about is something that is absolutely unconstitutional, supported byjohn absolutely unconstitutional, supported by john bercow, absolutely unconstitutional, supported byjohn bercow, the speaker, who is ripped every page of impartiality away from the rule book. Governments are under our constitution and they bring forward legislation and they are held to account at general elections for the legislation they bring forward and support put up what we are seeing in this parliament is legislation being brought forward by opposition parties. How can the cup and be held to account for that . Does not support it or bring it forward. You and some of your colleagues have taken away the Prime Ministers negotiating hand, you have chopped the legs from underneath him and he said that it in his attempts to get a deal to leave the eu. The conundrum i had yesterday was that ifi conundrum i had yesterday was that if i took this action, was i going to do that . What the Prime Ministers opportunity to meet and others was to convince us that the article, for example, in the telegraph was untrue to say that we are flat out and we still believe there is a million to one chance, his words, that we will be able to leave with a deal. Yesterday i was left with the awful feeling that all the attempts to find a deal are at best perfunctory. I represent an area where there are people who work ina great area where there are people who work in a great many areas of the economy like all of us, and it will not be People Like Us and you will be to any great degree by no deal, it will be the people who will at least be able to deal with it. At the end of the day, youve got to make a decision and youve got to stand up for what you believe. I want us to leave the European Union. I am now a lever, i was a remainer but im a democrat and i respect the result of the referenda but i was also elected ona the referenda but i was also elected on a manifesto to leave in an audit fashion. You wrote on the 1st of april, i do not believe that no deal isa april, i do not believe that no deal is a responsible answer to our situation. Yet you voted with the government last night. Are you going to vote with the government today . Youre not going to block no deal . |j youre not going to block no deal . shall do. Those things match. I have taken the view that it would be bad for the country for our security and economy, to leave without a deal. I wa nt economy, to leave without a deal. I want a deal. But even i come out supported jeremy hunt in the leadership campaign. His full back position, even though he wanted a deal, was that, at the end of the day, we are all democrats and we have to accept that the country has takena have to accept that the country has taken a decision will suffer fallback position, the endgame, is to be no deal. If you take that off the table, and this is not an exact science and i have a great deal of sympathy with what Richard Hazard said, but if you take that off the table, you do weaken the negotiating patient what richard has said. Evenif patient what richard has said. Even if people believe that, what if you end up with no deal . You describe it as irresponsible so it would you bear responsibility . have to, i am elected representative. How would you sleep at night . Difficulty but at night . With great difficulty but lets see when push comes to shove. There is a limited amount of time left and im still hopeful that between now and october the 315t it may be possible to deliver a deal. If that proves not to be the case thenl if that proves not to be the case then i reserve my position. Im on then i reserve my position. Im on the cusp. Of what . Of where i position myself within the party politics. You mean you might cross the floor or stand out . politics. You mean you might cross the floor or stand out . I would never cross the floor but i have devoted over 50 years of my life to the conservative party and i find it frankly appalling that people like richard, a superb minister, and i we nt richard, a superb minister, and i went into the house with in 1983, who have devoted their lives to puttick some have been treated in the way they are and it is very sad indeed to politics. Im afraid it is an indication of the past which conservative politics has come to that we come to this position. conservative politics has come to that we come to this position. I can hear your quiet and yet fierce angen hear your quiet and yet fierce anger. What are you are considering in terms of your own position . Standing down . I reserve that position. I respect that answer possible after just 42 position. I respect that answer possible afterjust 42 days, your Prime Minister is not in control. Are you impressed . Prime minister is not in control. Are you impressed . We are in a parliament that is overwhelmingly remain, out of step with the minister. The prime and it is showing leadership. Let me finish. The poll ratings, not only am i impressed with the country is impressed. We have lifted 12 points in the polls since borisjohnson became Prime Minister. And since that he has lost your conservative majority, lost control of parliament, lost control of the Brexit Process, youre not telling me that was the cunning plan all along . What you talked about earlier was the negotiation. Was that the strategy . That is the place he has been put in by a parliament that is overwhelmingly remain. He is committed to get us out of the European Union, to fulfil the mandate we were given and you are right, these current negotiations are a complete sham because while parliament is doing the eusjob for eight of undermining the negotiating position and threatening to bring down the government, of course the eu will never give any sensible renegotiations forward. Getting rid of former cabinet ministers, including former chancellors, Winston Churchills grandson, is a good look for the tory party right now . At the end of the day, it is about party discipline. It would be about party discipline. It would be a purge if those people were not told in advance that this is a confidence issue and if you vote against the government you will lose the whip. When the Prime Minister has said that, he has to follow through. He is a man who likes to keep his word. If he gets a deal on the backstop is amended, would you vote for it . I would take a long and pragmatic look at whatever deal he comes back with but i will make it clear that there is far more than just the backstop that is wrong with the current Withdrawal Agreement and i would rather leave on a gap 24 agreement. If it is only the backstop that is tweaked or amended. Going to comment. Said you will not vote for it to other things that you are concerned about are not. The continued jurisdiction of European Court of justice. Which means you face deselection like Richard Benyon . We will cross that bridge when we get to it. It would be fair if you also deselected if you voted against borisjohnson . Deselected if you voted against Boris Johnson . Lets say what the whips say. You think they will treat you differently differently because youre a brexiteer . you differently differently because youre a brexiteer . I dont think so possible if i put to take powers away from the government and bit to the opposition, i would lose the whip. If you voted against Boris Johnsons deal if he came back with one you would expect to be chucked out . I would take a long and pragmatic look at whatever deal comes back but we will not get a deal from the eu while parliament is doing the eus job deal from the eu while parliament is doing the eusjob for it and undermining the Prime Minister threatening to bring the government down. I think we are heading for a general election. What are you going to do . I will sit where i have a lwa ys to do . I will sit where i have always sat in parliament and to support the Prime Ministers energetic domestic agenda and i hope that in time i will be able to continue as a conservative mp but if i cant, is really not about me. Just so im clear, youre going to continue sitting as a conservative mp even though youve effectively been chucked out . Yes, you will not see me sit in a different place, or any of my colleagues. We were elected as conservative mps. We will speak in debates, i will vote with the government on every occasion that i can and i will try to support the Prime Ministers very admirable domestic agenda on issues like Climate Change which i have campaigned for. Why are you still doing that when have treated you appallingly . Because this is not about me, victoria, not about Richard Benyon or even ken clarke and nicholas soames. This is about this country, the people we represent. On the grade of awfulness, if this is no deal brexit, a corbyn led government is out of all proportion worse. What an extreme out of all proportion worse. What an extre m e left out of all proportion worse. What an extreme left cabal of trotskyists we re extreme left cabal of trotskyists were due to the life chances are people in my constituency and the businesses they work in and the aspirations they have is out of all proportion more awful. That is where you might be heading because although your Prime Minister says he does not want an election, he is going to seek one. There is a tradition in british politics, when the government runs out of majority, you have an election. In time, whether it is this week, next week, next month or next year, there will bea next month or next year, there will be a general election. Very briefly you say it will carry on sitting as a conservative mp. Who is in charge . Number 10 a conservative mp. Who is in charge . Number10 and a conservative mp. Who is in charge . Number 10 and the whips who deselected you, or your own conservative Constituency Association question in me standing, i havent delved into the rule book. The party has to approve you to be a candidate. My local association, i would throw myself to their mercy because they selected me in the first place and i think i owe it to them to reboot my relationship with them and we will see what happens for them there will be plenty of tory voters saying thank goodness Boris Johnson be plenty of tory voters saying thank goodness borisjohnson is a strong leader. He has got rid of these tory insurgents. Who should voters trust to deliver brexit . We just listened to a reasonable and courteous man who has been a lifelong conservative, who is a concept and will remain on our benches making a recent, sensible, intelligent argument. That is the sort of person i believe most people who vote conservative want to vote for. I think if we carve that out and take the party to the hard right, if we become a sort of provisional wing of brexit, then we are doomed as a party. We are in a bizarre situation where a prime lister who says he does not want an election is calling one Prime Minister put up we have a leader of an opposition who has been campaigning foran an opposition who has been campaigning for an election for three years but now says he does not wa nt three years but now says he does not want that and how that pans out i dont know but we live in Uncharted Waters put up some breaking news coming in and i will ask for your reaction briefly. The Court Session in edinburgh has thrown out in that case brought by a Cross Party Group of 75 politicians who were trying to see it borisjohnsons plan to shut down parliament was unlawful. The court of session in edinburgh as throwing that out. That group of mps has lost. No surprise. Prorogation isa has lost. No surprise. Prorogation is a normal procedure and happens about every 14 months. It has been blown out of all proportion by the media and those on the remain site. Ultimately, we are losing about four days of sitting time we have been speaking about brexit for three and a half years and nobody is changing their mind. Thank you to all of you we appreciate your time, andrew bridgen, Richard Benyon and sir roger gale. Some strong words from sir roger gale particularly about how downing street and liz sir roger gale particularly about how downing street and linohnsons top eight Dominic Cummings have handled this and verbally abused certain mps including greg clarke. Sir roger gale claims. Thank you for your messages i will read some out. Who do you trust to deliver brexit and who do you trust to stop it if you are on that side . On facebook, vivian says, i dont want an election, no delays, ijust want brexit, just do it this says, absolutely an election after we have left, as promised, over and over, on the 31st of october. This one says, i dont want an election, lets support our Prime Minister. Simon says, i will support a general election with the caveat that the entire crop of current mps are banned from standing. They have all proved they are unable to do their jobs. Mike says, i dont trust anyone to deliver brexit because we still dont know as a country what it is. Rick says, the best thing that citizens of the uk can do is rid ourselves of party politics. We should vote instead for 650 independent mps. Labour has confirmed they will not back a general election unless no deal is blocked by law. We can now speak to jonathan reynolds, the labour economic secretary to the treasury was the mp for stalybridge and hyde in greater manchester, and also Christine Jardine from the liberal democrats who want to stop brexit. Good morning, ifirst want democrats who want to stop brexit. Good morning, i first want to ask you for your reaction to the breaking news from edinburgh it the court of session checking out that attempt to have borisjohnsons plan to shut down parliament declared illegal. Its hugely disappointing. It doesnt change my view of the fa ct it doesnt change my view of the fact that it is a tactic being used by this Prime Minister to suspend parliament from silence. Its not unlawful. That does not mean it is right or moral, just that the court could not find it unlovable but that does not make it acceptable for me unlawful. Does not make it acceptable for me unlawful. Im not surprised. To be honest, where the government will get into real trouble is in lying about it. The have prorogued parliament to try to minimise the scrutiny and in most parliamentary time and they should be honest about it and pretending they have not is getting them into real trouble. It and pretending they have not is getting them into realtrouble. And you will both vote for the bill later to stop a no deal brexit . You will both vote for the bill later to stop a Nodeal Brexit . Yes. And there could be a vote on an election. In the labour party, if you vote for an election now, Jeremy Corbyn could be Prime Minister by october 15. He corbyn could be Prime Minister by 0ctober15. He could be and i think a general election is inevitable now. But you will not vote for it . I cant believe that people like ken clarke will not be considered to mp5 but we will not fall for the trap. It is our priority is stopping a no deal brexit. It is our priority is stopping a Nodeal Brexit. The Campaign Slogan could be vote labour, stop no deal possible we are going to be asked to trust borisjohnson do not just allow the uk followed without a deal because there is an election. If any body thinks we are as silly to fall for that, i think we be naive. Could this happen, you get this emergency legislation through to stop no deal, is in statute and lockdown and it is law. Then you vote for an election, lets say borisjohnson vote for an election, lets say Boris Johnson and the vote for an election, lets say borisjohnson and the conservatives win that, he overturned the legislation and repealed it and the uk leaves with no deal on october 31 . What we want is to make sure that cannot happen and there cannot be no deal and if there is legislation, we make sure that we get either a referendum to stop it or if we get very close to the edge, and it looks like borisjohnson will ignore everybody and do what he wa nts a nyway, ignore everybody and do what he wants anyway, that we can repeal article 50. What we cannot do is destroy the economy. What about an election after october 31 . The best thing for me would be to have the government, a temporary government of National Unity to see through perhaps a referendum and then a general election and then we know where we are put on who would lead that . I think we would have to rise above party politics. I dont know who. I think we will be better with some money like ken clarke somebody like ken clarke. He would be someone who would be ideal and he has the experience and it can draw the house together but that is a decision that has to be made when we come to actually negotiating it. you get this legislation through to plot a no deal brexit and block a general election, is the next prick up general election, is the next prick up your sleeve to call a vote of no confidence in the prime illicit the next trick. The priority has to be stopping a no deal brexit. The priority has to be stopping a Nodeal Brexit. The scenario in your ideal world is that you do that, you block a general election so can you confirm a vote of no confidence but down by labour . It is an option. You would only do that if you want to win it. The government majority is 34 win it. The government majority is 34 so clearly things have changed significantly 34 so clearly things have changed significa ntly but 34 so clearly things have changed significantly but the priority has to be to stop no deal and then we get the chance to put to the people how we resolve this issue. That has to be the way to do it. In terms of where we are at, it is great we have got to this point where we can potentially stop a no deal brexit because that is not what the country voted for. I have had messages from people saying they have had enough but they realise its not all over by october the 31st but it would mean we would have left the eu and the fact that backbenchers and opposition parties are now in control is outrageous. Thatsjust the start of it. Everybody wants this to go quickly and we are sick of it as well this is not the way to do it because the process changes to do it because the process changes to something fundamentally different and to get that deal with the eu, you have to have a new trade treaty with every country in europe voting on that. I understand people are sick of it but ate no deal brexit is not the way to do this. sick of it but ate no deal brexit is not the way to do this. I was good to say that this is not the end a bit if we crash out without a deal, we would have a decade of this and this is not what the country wants. If it ends up with you getting a three month extension to what is the point of that . In that extension you could have a referendum, you can decide whether or not you want to go ahead with leaving, if you do decide that you can negotiate a deal which the Prime Minister had said he wants to do and we have seen absolutely no evidence of that, and then you can have a general election. The important thing is it gives you three months to avoid crashing out without a deal. We got an extension and the eu said to use it wisely and this government in the previous one did not use it at all wisely. What we need to do now is using the time to get the country out of this mess and prevent us going over this cliff and prevent us going over this cliff and damaging the economy. Its more paralysis. Its not just and damaging the economy. Its more paralysis. Its notjust an extension, if the promised is a serious. Nobody has seen any evidence of that, but he could bring a deal to parliament are possible is notjust a a deal to parliament are possible is not just a three month extension and then we decide it gives us time to do that. I love about asking where our negotiating team is a lot of us. Where other plans for the buck stop . What everybody can see is the Prime Minister is not telling the truth their backstop. It is a sham and they want no deal because it suits their political agenda but its not what the country voted for and the consequences, we would never be forgiven in this place. Final thought is eight lib dems, your your new member is phillip lee. How many more mightjoin the liberal democrats . I spoke to a former conservative mp who rebelled last night who is telling his Constituency Association he would neverjoin another party but he will stand as an independent at the next election. We welcome anyone who. Are how many . I cant put a number on it. Im not going to reveal figures but i will say that we are hopeful they will be others joining before the end of this parliament. Whenever that might be. It could be next week are you comfortable with the views of phillip lee on gay rights and hiv migrants . A lot has been said. Where we are at the moment, we accept people who share our views about where the country needs to go, that we want a more open and Tolerant Society and liberal society. Those words dont necessarily fit what we did, he abstained in the 2013 vote on same sex marriage. Abstained in the 2013 vote on samesex marriage. People change their mind. Have you asking if he has changed his mind . Members of our party have spoken to him before he joined and we have very strong views on lgbt rights and equal marriage. What about the fact that in 2014. He proposed that people come to settle in the uk should first have to prove that they dont have hiv or hepatitis b before anybodyjoins our party, we ask them their views on that. I do not support that. If you join our party, he will have been through the same process as everybody else who joins. He would be asked to sign up to particular views and principles before they join the party. Some lgbt lib dems members have resigned from the party. Im sorry they felt that way but it was unfortunate it was an hour after he left and maybe if they had given time to talk to him and the rest of the party they might have seen things differently. Thank you very much. Were going to talk now about the rights of eu citizens living and working lawfully in this country. This programme can exclusively reveal thatjust under 800 eu citizens have chosen to use a visa settlement scheme which was set up for people affected by windrush, instead of the official system for europeans, in order to remain living in the uk after brexit. But mps and lawyers have criticised the official scheme, known as the eu settlement scheme, for several reasons, and theyre warning that the handling of eu citizens in this country could potentially prompt another windrush scandal. Peter walker has this report. Our guarantee to the 3. 2 million eu nationals now living and working among us, i thank them for their contribution to our society and for their patience, and i can assure them that under this government, they will have the absolute certainty of the right to live and remain. During and after the brexit referendum campaign, eu nationals living in britain were told they had nothing to fear. Vote leave said theyd automatically be granted indefinite leave to stay in the uk. But its not automatic, and not everyone feels they have absolute certainty. I fell for the hype. The leave Campaign Said our rights would not be changed. So, no, i wasnt worried. My mum has alreadyjumped through hoops and gone through an immigration system back in the 505. Shes done her bit. She shouldnt have to do that again. To remain in the country, europeans have to apply online via the eu settlement scheme by the end of 2020. Thats in the event of a no deal. Or by the end of the following june, in the event of a deal. Although the home office estimates fewer than a third of europeans in the uk have actually signed up. But this programme can exclusively reveal that nearly 800 eu nationals have found what they think is a much better alternative. Getting indefinite leave to remain using the windrush scheme. The scheme was set up off the back of the windrush scandal, where changes to Immigration Law in 2012 meant around half a Million People who came to the uk from caribbean countries were asked for evidence to continue working, accessing services, or to even remain in the uk. Some were wrongly detained and deported. But this scheme is actually open to migrants of any nationality who arrived, or whose parents arrived, before 1989. The application is similar to the settlement scheme, but theyre invited to the post office to provide fingerprints and an electronic signature. Unlike the settlement scheme, this route means they receive a biometrics id card physical proof of their indefinite leave to remain. This was taken in the august of 56. Danielas mother came from italy to bradford in the 1950s to work in the textile mills. She chose the windrush scheme but, really, she thinks her mum shouldnt have had to apply for anything. She thought i was exaggerating. She thought i was being ridiculous. And what she did say to me was, it doesnt apply to me because your daddy was english. Im married to an englishman. I was married to an englishman for 56 years. Its the indignity of it all. An elderly lady like that, having to go through all that when shes been through that system. Over 60 years ago. Its not fair. So danielas mother was one of thousands from italy who answered the call to arms in the factories in the north of england to help rebuild post war britain. On the south coast, meanwhile, europeans were typically arriving to learn english. Many have stayed, so they can teach the language to the next generations. Hi, dominique. Hello, peter. Dominique arrived from paris in the 1970s to be with her then boyfriend, now husband, tony, who is from italy. The pair set up their english Language School in bournemouth. It is getting on a bit, so its been here since you bought the house . And when did you buy the house . 1986. 33 yea rs . Yeah. Not quite as long as the time youve been in the country. No, no. This was our second house. Actually, it was a relief. The application itself was very simple. And then three and a half weeks later, i received my card. I didnt feel guilty about obtaining a document which i felt, in a way, was due to us, because weve been here this long and its not ourfault that the system changed. But i did feel terribly guilty about getting it on the back of the suffering of windrush people. Because if it hadnt been for them and all the scandal, this scheme would never have been set up. Christopher desira is an Immigration Lawyer. Whats happening is that eu citizens are being cheated out of the eu settlement scheme. They should receive a physical document under the eu settlement scheme, but theyre not and that worries them and that worries the people that have to understand what their rights and entitlements are. This is why theyre using the windrush scheme to get a physical document that theyre not getting under the eu settlement scheme. The home office says its always looking for reasons to grant status, not to refuse it, and more than1 Million People have applied to the scheme so far. It says it gives them secure digital status which, unlike a physical document, cannot be lost, stolen or tampered with. She was very stylish, my mum. She loved her gloves. So one scheme logs your indefinite leave to remain on a database. The other issues an id card. A rising number of eu nationals, many at retirement age, are emphatic about which one they prefer. According to the last census, 460,000 eu nationals said theyd arrived in england and wales before 1991, so thats potentially a lot more applications under the windrush scheme. Does it feel like youre cheating the system in any way by using windrush . No. Shesjust as much in need of her status being documented and regulated as anybody else. Of course, what happened to the windrush people was horrific, but that was my point entirely. I didnt want this to happen to another section of the community. What, were going to have an italian windrush . So, i didnt want that to happen. Lets talk to katia widlak, from the 3million a Campaign Group for the rights of eu citizens in the uk after brexit. Damian wawrzyniak a polish chef who was initially not given settled status, despite having lived and worked in the uk for 15 years. And dr Elaine Hunter an Irish Academic at the university of glasgow, who moved to the uk in 1999. She applied for settled status in august, but was rejected. And the conservative mp Kevin Hollinrake is also here. Welcome, thank you very much. First, your reaction, Kevin Hollinrake, that people are using the windrush scheme because they trust it and they dont trust the official eu settle m e nt they dont trust the official eu settlement scheme. That is not good to hear, we want anybody in the uk now or even who enters the uk by the end of 2020 to get the same rights asa uk end of 2020 to get the same rights as a uk citizen, that is our objective. Sometimes the bureaucracy doesnt work as well as we expect and we need to sort that out, and in my constituency, we had a couple of cases where people have felt this way, they are not getting anything tangible, in their hands they can show to stay to say they have that status. Identity cards are a worry to some people and that becomes two tiers of citizenship citizenship. We need people to feel co mforta ble citizenship. We need people to feel comfortable with the process and the outcome. As vote leave campaigners, high profile ones, Boris Johnson, michael gove and priti patel, put their names to a Statement Issued in their names to a Statement Issued in the Eu Referendum campaign saying, eu citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the uk. That wasnt true. It is not automatic. There has to be some kind of process. Did they lie . It is a process. You give your name and who you are. Im sorry, let me read it again. Eu citizens will automatically, automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the uk. Well, it is an Automatic Process in that of course you have to give your name and details. Would you describe it as automatic . No, it is an application and that is where the confusion is coming from because people think their rights are granted automatically and they are not. It is a conditional application, people can be refused orgivena application, people can be refused or given a lesser status. At the end ofan or given a lesser status. At the end of an obituary arbitrary deadline, people can lose their legal right to be in the uk and be documented and the consequences for that are really dire. Explain why you say they are dire. There is an estimate of 3. 8 europeans and you have non eu nationals which is estimated to be 1 Million People that need to apply and those figures are underestimated by the ons. Why would it be dire . Because people would it be dire . Because people would have no access to the nhs, the right to work, the right to rent, because it is statutory the right to re nt because it is statutory the right to rent or the right to work, and they would lose everything. And possibly be deported or put in a detention centre. Damian, how do you feel after living and working in the uk for 15 years in the festival having to go through this process of trying to go through this process of trying to get permission to continue living and working roughly here in britain . Well, i was always against applying for the settlement status because of the media attention. Sol for the settlement status because of the media attention. So i decided to apply because the businesses going, employ people, sol apply because the businesses going, employ people, so i need to be legal here. And employ people, so i need to be legal here. And i did. A few hours later, i received documents that i need to send extra proof of identification. And on saturday morning, i have a pre settlement, which is not indefinite leave to remain. You have been given pre settled status, which is one step towards hopefully settle status . In my opinion, i was treated like a second class citizen. It is not only me, there are millions of people who will go through it. But you have got settle status now. I have got it now and i got it pretty quickly, but i had a Good Platform and the home office contacted me and it was done within hours. But there are a lot of european citizens. So the system worked . The system worked, but there was an issue at the beginning. The application is easy if you are lucky. How do you feel about having to go through that process . Feel about having to go through that process . For me, it is a sad situation because i have lived here for so many years. I gave everything to this country and i treat it as my home. Why should i apply to stay in my own home . How do you reply to that . Because the way we have run our immigration system in the past, we dont know who is here from the European Union and has to be a way of identifying those who want to say, some dont want to stay so there has to information transferred from catty and damian to the Immigration Services so we can say you are the right people. Do you accept that, there has to be some sort of Brexit Process . There was ple nty of sort of Brexit Process . There was plenty of information about us for the last 15 years, you should recognise my National Insurance number, my home address. I have never number, my home address. I have never been without works is the day i arrived, i never been without works is the day iarrived, i never claimed benefits. There are a lot of people like me which need help and they should be automatically, this is what we were told in 2016, we will get automatic, indefinite leave to remain in britain. And i say that is a lie. Cani britain. And i say that is a lie. Can i add something quickly about that . If you want to know how many europeans are part of this country, you can change the application process to a simple registration and make sure that all our legal rights are enshrined in primary legislation. And that would be it. And he would not have a cut off date and you will not create all this mess. Let me bring in Elaine Hunter, good morning, thank you for your patience. So your application for settle status was rejected, but isnt that because you are played in the wrong way . That is what the home office say. No, i applied in the correct manner, using the online syste m correct manner, using the Online System that was there. But in my case, i system that was there. But in my case, lam system that was there. But in my case, i am an irish national, i have been here over 20 years now. And i know exactly why this issue has occurred with me. It is because of that bureaucracy of the National Insurance numbers and the databases that are held. When i arrived here in1989, i that are held. When i arrived here in 1989, i applied for a National Insurance numberand in 1989, i applied for a National Insurance number and what i have now found out last december was that i was issued an error with the National Insurance number of a different individual, who happen to have the same first name, the same surname as my have the same first name, the same surname as my maiden name and the same date of birth. So for 18, 19 years, same date of birth. So for 18, 19 years, our same date of birth. So for 18, 19 years, our employment and National Insurance histories were interlinked. Before they realised that there was an issue. Sol interlinked. Before they realised that there was an issue. So i had to apply for a new National Insurance number, and tried then to get my details transferred over. Now, that following intervention from my mp alison os, following intervention from my mp alison 05, has been done. Sorry to interrupt, but the home office have just contacted us. They say, eu citizens are our friends, families and neighbours and we want them to stay. Over 1 and neighbours and we want them to stay. Over1 Million People have been granted status through the eu settle m e nt been granted status through the eu settlement scheme so far. How do you respond to that . 1 Million People have been granted some form of wreath but they have not been given that indefinite right to remain some form of right. We were promised it in 2016. They say you dont need it in 2016. They say you dont need it because you are irish. People say that and there is an understanding between the uk and the Irish Government which was signed in june this year. However, that only covers the Social Security arrangements between our two countries. It does not cover freedom of movement. And this is a major issue both for irish nationals living in the uk and also in Northern Ireland. Scott tweets to say, my partner has lived and worked in the uk for the last 20 years. Applied 11 days ago and had to submit evidence. Yesterday, ten days later, asked to submit more evidence for different dates. I expect it all to be ok, but it is not automatic and the helpline was useless. Do you acknowledge that there is real worry, real anxiety about the wave the eu settlement scheme is working at the moment . Bureaucracies, and this in particular, are farfrom perfect, but 1 this in particular, are farfrom perfect, but1 Million People have successfully navigated it. The people we have dealt with have generally found it really easy and damian said before it was reasonably easy. And people are having problems, please go to your mp, we can help. We want to make this as easy as possible, katia suggested some really interesting ways to make it simpler we want to make it simpler, we want the same things. We wa nt simpler, we want the same things. We want people who live here from the eu to be able to live here permanently if that is what they want. A quick word, do you trust the government when they say you are our friends and neighbours, we want you to stay . Well, i am your friend and lam your to stay . Well, i am your friend and i am your neighbour, but 1 to stay . Well, i am your friend and i am your neighbour, but1 million you said to have received settle status of pre settled status . There isa status of pre settled status . There is a massive difference between those two things. Do you trust them . Ijust want those two things. Do you trust them . I just want legal guarantees, those two things. Do you trust them . Ijust want legal guarantees, i dont trust people to keep their promises, they havent done that and they are in office and they dont have to do that. No, in a word, my impetus to apply for settle status was the announcement by priti patel which they have since gone back on that freedom of movement would end automatically on october 31st. And that was my worry and my reasoning for applying for settle status. And i think it is really important for people who have been here to declare that they have been here and just in one simple and easy system, the home office does not have the resources to deal with the number of applicants that are going to be processed. Someone at the home office is watching because they have tweeted again. By the end ofjune, not a Single Person has been refused the status they applied for under the status they applied for under the eu settlement scheme. Eu citizens have until at least december 2022 apply. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming on the programme, or the best, thank you. And thank you for your this morning. And thank you for your this morning. And some of you responding to the fa ct, and some of you responding to the fact, to the very strong words from sir roger gale, conservative mp, against no deal, he backed his government last night but said he was absolutely appalled by the way number 10 had handled the deselection of some very senior and long standing conservative mps. He was searing about 12 ands top advisor Dominic Cummings and he described him as unelected, foul mouthed oaf. He said he has thrown his weight around and it is unacceptable and he said if that does if the Prime Minister doesnt have Dominic Cummings frogmarched out of downing street himself, the chances are it wont be mr corbyn but Dominic Cummings that brings down the administration. The way he has treated those who courtesy tried to make their waste try to make their case to the Prime Minister has been utterly disgraceful. People like greg clark conservative mp and minister and one of the most courteous and male dismay and i have met, finds himself subject to abuse. I believe it has gone too far and it has got to stop. And he says mr clarke was sworn at and told people like him are not releva nt to and told people like him are not relevant to the conservative party. Roger gale claimed that on our programme this morning. Downing street have yet to comment. If they are watching. And clearly, somebody and home office is. Maybe we could get another tweet before the end of the programme. The Northern Irish dup partys ten mps backed borisjohnson last night, despite concerns about the impact that a no deal brexit would have on Northern Ireland. Sinn fein the irish republican party, who want to see the unification of the island of ireland and campaigned to remain in the eu dont take up their seven seats in the house of commons, so they cannot vote in parliament. Jeffrey donaldson, a dup mp, is with me, as is Chris Hazzard, from sinn fein. Welcome, both of you, it is good to see here. 67 of your constituents voted to stay in the eu. They didnt wa nt to voted to stay in the eu. They didnt want to brexit, let alone a no deal, so why not take your seat in parliament to make sure you can influence what happens next . My constituents also voted for a sinn fein mp who wouldnt take his seat at westminster. How do you influence events then . You have to remember the centre of political gravity may well be westminster in britain, but my constituents, it is dublin and brussels in europe. We have been on the other side of the negotiating table so the rights of irish citizens and farmers and the Business Community and the Civic Society who live along the body, it is brussels and eu 27 who have protected them and that is where we differ, that is where we have lobbied. Nodeal has not been taken off the table, it is still not off the table and it may not be. Surely the table and it may not be. Surely the stakes are so high you should try and influence things and represent your constituents . Constituents looked on with amusement, they see the theatre and pantomime westminster has become over recent months. Opposition mps are on the cusp of stopping a no deal brexit which is what you want. There is no desire to be part of that, they know the issues they want, the interest of ireland have never been represented by westminster parliament, they know that. Why do you take a salary . I dont get a salary from westminster, you should know that, victoria. People in ireland know that their rights and interests are represented by dublin and by the eu 27 when it comes to brexit. You think Boris Johnson will represent the rights of the People Living in ireland . We vote today, geoffrey donaldson, to ensure the uk doesnt leave the eu without a deal . Well, we want to deal with the European Union. But you completely undermine the uk governments negotiating position when you throw away their strongest bargaining point. And that is the problem with this. People say they wa nt problem with this. People say they want a deal and to avoid no deal and lam with want a deal and to avoid no deal and i am with them on that. But the best way to avoid no deal is to get a deal that parliament can support. Many of the mp5 who voted last night against the government men they are mps who voted against the Withdrawal Agreement before on three occasions, like me, because they have real concerns about what the eu are proposing. Sorry to interrupt, you know there is no evidence that syria proposed stills proposals have been put forward from number 10 to the eu. No one believes that. The Prime Minister has only been in office a few weeks and i know there are serious discussions taking place in downing street and with other Key Stakeholders to draw up and present those proposals to the European Union. If we are going to get this right, we need to work hard to ensure right, we need to work hard to ensure that the proposals are not only capable of reaching an accommodation with the eu, but capable of having the support of parliament as well. Does it not concern you that only 6 of cross border businesses are ready for no deal, how big a hit to the economy are you willing to take . We dont want to take a hit for the economy in Northern Ireland, we want to see Northern Ireland prosper. But we are working with the government to introduce mitigation measures in the event that no deal happens. But the event that no deal happens. But the best way to avoid no deal, which is what we want to do, is to get a deal with the eu. Is what we want to do, is to get a dealwith the eu. So is what we want to do, is to get a deal with the eu. So how does the snake make it easier for the deal with the eu. So how does the snake make it easierforthe uk government to negotiate a new deal with the European Union . That is the problem i have with what mps who say they want to avoid no deal did last night, they are making it more difficult to get a deal, which raises the suspicion in many peoples mind is that what they really wa nt peoples mind is that what they really want to do is to stop brexit altogether. And there is suspicion in the minds of some that you want a no deal brexit, despite people like bs had of the Northern IrelandPolice Service saying brexit without a deal could become a motivating factor for extremists. She says, a deal could become a motivating factorfor extremists. She says, we predict six to 12 month period if there is a no deal that there could be an upsurge in violence. In respect, the violence is already happening, i dont know if the bbc reports it any more. We had an attempt recently to Murder Police office rs attempt recently to Murder Police officers on the border where we are still members of the European Union and there is still no infrastructure on the border. Barbara gray said there will be an upsurge. To be clear, are you seriously suggesting the United Kingdom should determine its future because it is threatened by terrorists who dont accept the rule of law or any constitutional outcome other than what they demand . We should all be rejecting terrorism, we should not be trying to explain why it happens. Of course i dont want violence. Neither do i wa nt i dont want violence. Neither do i want to no deal, i want to get a deal with the European Union and i wa nt deal with the European Union and i want to honour the wishes of my constituency and the people of the United Kingdom who voted to leave the eu. If there is a Nodeal Brexit, would you anticipate an upsurge in violence as barbara gray potentially does . You only have to look at the assessments from the Civil Service at home in belfast and of course the british governments loa n of course the british governments loan scenario planning around this where Senior Police constables, senior people within the Security Apparatus have identified that as a major issue. I go back to the earlier point made byjeffrey, there has been a deal on the table for some time now. The deal that had a backstop some time now. The deal that had a ba cksto p to some time now. The deal that had a backstop to protect all the interests and issues geoffrey talks about but the dup have refused to back those people they are supposed to represent, they havent done that. Thank you both very much. Chris hazzard that. Thank you both very much. Chris hazza rd and that. Thank you both very much. Chris hazzard and Chris Hazzard from sinn fein and Jeffrey Donaldson from sinn fein and Jeffrey Donaldson from the dup. Our political guru norman smithjoins me now. Borisjohnson has to come up with a plan b quickly because plan a has hit the buffers and mps look to pass legislation blocking a no deal. Plan a, mark two, have a quick snap general election, that also looks like it will hit the buffers because by and large labour vetoed that move. He has to come up with a plan b. A move. He has to come up with a plan b. A number of ways of doing this. One is that you try and snarl up and move to pass the no deal legislation the house of lords and table some mighty amendments. Even so, very difficult to do. I think the peers would probably sit through the weekend to get it through and i dont think that will work. That has to get through before the proroguing of parliament. Yes, i dont think thatll work. Another option is to introduce a short one line bill to aside the fixed term palin its out and have an election. The advantage is you only need a simple commons majority rather than two thirds. The problem is getting legislation through now when the Prime Minister doesnt have a majority and the mood on the backbenches. Doesnt have a majority and the mood on the backbenches. My best guess is he will sayJeremy Corbyn, we will give you your no deal legislation, you must now back a general election. In other words, legislation, you must now back a general election. In otherwords, he will call his bluff and say, ok, we will call his bluff and say, ok, we will go with no deal and have the election, he will hope to win it and introduce legislation to overturn the no deal legislation. Introduce legislation to overturn the nodeal legislation. Goodness. Thank you very much. You did it in the exact amount of time, you are such a professional i was prorogued an unsettled day, sunny spells and showers, and autumnal feel for some others. Sunshine, that is a scene in nottinghamshire. Quite widely across england and wales. The rest the last of the rain clearing from the south east and showers moving into north west england and across wales, heavy rain into the afternoon. Further showers in scotland and Northern Ireland this afternoon. Blustery conditions, particularly in the west of scotland. 55 miles an hour throughout this afternoon. Temperatures down on yesterday by a few degrees so for many of us, the mid to the high teens. This evening, we continue with this rain across northern parts of england, spreading south and east. But clearing from many parts, just a few showers lingering into the early part of thursday. During thursday, a drier day for most of us. Sunny spells across the board and maximum temperature is about 17 to about 19 celsius. Goodbye for now. Youre watching bbc newsroom live with Annita Mcveigh in westminster, the headlines at 11. After a dramatic defeat for the Prime Minister last night, mps will today try to rush through legislation to block the possibility of a no deal brexit. Borisjohnson says hell seek a general election if hes forced to request an extension. If mps vote tomorrow to stop negotiations and to compel another pointless delay to brexit, potentially for years, then that would be the only way to resolve this. But labour and the liberal democrats say they will block an election until the threat of a no deal is removed. Get the bill through first in order to prevent. In order