To conservative mp peter bone but thats another issue. On hardtalk. We established the referendum didnt give legal authority. No, but everybody knew that decision would be respected. Let me just think this welcome to hardtalk, through with you. Im stephen sackur. We also know the leave campaign for more than three years, british politics has been did not tell the british people convulsed by brexit. Directly that brexit would be in the form of a no deal brexit, and quite the contrary, weve seen endless parliamentary leaders of the leave campaign made arguments with no resolution. It quite clear they believed that this week, that may change. Brexit would be a smooth and orderly transition. Prime minister Boris Johnsons so there is no mandate determination to be out of the eu come what may on october the 31st, for a no deal brexit. And his decision to suspend parliament for more than a month well, i think youre starting next week means opponents of a no deal brexit have wrong on two grounds just days to thwart him. First of all, the ballot paper my guest is conservative mp said leave or remain, and ardent Brexiteer Peter bone. 00 01 37,669 2147483051 37 33,549 is brexit about to break his party 2147483051 37 33,549 4294966103 13 29,430 and britains democratic reputation . There was nothing about a deal at all, and all this discussion about a deal is post brexit. Everyone knows. First of all, i ask you what do you mean by a no deal . As far as im concerned, it was the greatest democratic thing that ive been involved in probably for many, many years, and the result was people were saying to me, we want to End Free Movement of people. We want to make our own laws in our own countries judged by our own judges, and we want to stop giving the eu billions and billions of pounds each year. Thats what they wanted. What you call a no deal delivers exactly that. No deal is actually. What youre referring to, is about the trading relationship with the eu, nothing more than that. Lets not trade, sort of, impressions, lets deal in facts. I specifically looked at what michael gove, one of the absolutely key leaders of the leave campaign, said in the run up. This is before the vote injune, 2016, this is a couple of months before in a keynote address. He said, after we leave, we will remain in the European Free trade zone. Remaining in it is a simple course, its in everyones interest. The day after we leave, we hold all the cards, we can choose the path we want and there will be no turbulence nor drama. Well, of course, that message does not match anything now being proposed in terms of a no deal brexit. Yes, well what michael gove said, i think everyone assumed the European Union would agree to. The fact they sell £100 billion more goods to us than we do to them, it seemed that we would have a Free Trade Agreement that would benefit both the eu and united kingdom. That was the prospectus that the leave campaign used, and it was obviously a false prospectus. Nobody challenged it. Everyone thought thats what would happen. Lets talk then about your, at the beginning of this, recognition that ultimately we live in a representative parliamentary democracy. You now sit as a member of the conservative party led by Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister who hasjust prorogued and declared that parliament will be suspended for more than a month, starting next week, therefore precluding parliamentary debate at what everybody agrees is the most important, most difficult time facing britain in political terms since world war ii. I dont know where i start with my disagreement to all that. Youve probably noticed weve been discussing brexit for more than three years now, in great detail. Another three weeks or four weeks of me talking about brexit and another three orfour weeks of keir starmer talking about brexit isnt going to change a single persons opinion. The british people have already voted. Prorogation was essential. Were in the second Longest Parliament since the civil war. We need to reset the parliamentary clock. We need to have a queens speech where this new government puts forward its proposals. We need to start the clock for the 20 opposition days, the 35 back bench Business Days and the 13 private members days. These things are essential to a parliamentary democracy. It is restoring parliamentary democracy, not what youre saying. Mr bone, you dont, im sure, take the British Public for fools, and its transparently obvious, is it not, that the prorogation of British Parliament was specifically to avoid weeks and weeks of extremely difficult and potentially dangerous debate for borisjohnson and his intent to get britain out of europe, the European Union, by october the 31st. It was a political device. Thats just wrong if you look at it. Prorogation loses about four parliamentary days. We always have a recess in the second half of september and the first week of october for the Party Conference week. Now, you will recall that it was a conservative government that implemented this in 2010, or pehaps you should say a coalition government. While labour was in power, they were quite happy that parliament shut down in the middle ofjuly and didnt start again until the middle of october. How does that tie in with our parliamentary history . But even members of this government. In private moments, ben wallace, who didnt know he was being recorded at the time, said as far as they are concerned, prorogation, the suspension of parliament was to prevent mps from blocking borisjohnsons brexit plan and eventually every leader has to try, and we found ourselves, said ben wallace when he didnt know he was being recorded, with no majority and in a coalition and that is something we had to do to drive brexit through. Ben is wrong in the sense we had to have a new queens speech. Not only do we have to have it, ive been calling for it, but not only have i been calling for it, leading labour mps have been calling for it and were doing exactly what the labour party have called for. The shadow leader of the house has called for this on at least three occassions. What matters is the leader of the house. He runs the house of commons and he, when he heard about borisjohnsons device, the prorogation, suspension of parliament, firstly he wasnt consulted and secondly he responded with rage, saying, it was blindingly obvious the purpose of prorogation was to stop parliament debating brexit and performing its duty in terms of shaping the course for the country. I would agree with the speaker if the Prime Minister tried to Prorogue Parliament passed the 31st of october, and i wouldve been the first person to have called that out. Whats happening now is we have a queens speech i think on the 14th of october. That is when the opposition can scrutinise the government. More importantly, it can table amendments to the queens speech. They could move an amendment to the queens speech requiring us not to leave on the 31st of october. They have got a mechanism because of this where they can actually legitimately do it. It is just wrong to say that they cant do it. You know that many on your own side. Indeed people in the cabinet today when they looked at the possibility of prorogation over the summer said it would be tantamount to, to quote sajid javid, trashing democracy. To quote matt hancock, another cabinet minister, the end of the conservative party. You have changed your tune because you can use this to railroad brexit through a parliament that doesnt want no deal. No, no. They were absolutely right in what they were saying, and they were responding to the question if the Prime Minister prorogued parliament past the 31st of october to get a no deal brexit, they wouldve been absolutely right. I wouldve been absolutely right. And by the way, the Prime Minister said he wasnt going to do that and he hasnt done it. This is a normal process that happens every year, or should happen every year. Lets talk about the Prime Minister and his credibility. He says he doesnt want a no deal brexit and is working very hard to avoid it by getting a new deal with the European Union. He met angela merkel, chancellor of germany, emmanuel macron, president of france, nine and eight days ago respectively. Since then, there has been no sign from Boris Johnson and his government of new proposals on the key question of what to do about the border between Northern Ireland and ireland. What on earth is going on . Well, i think there will be a deal done and i think it will be put to parliament and i think it will be done after the 14th of october. There are private discussions going on all the time between representatives of the eu and the British Government. If i had to bet iop at the moment, id bet we will have an agreement before the 31st of october. The chief negotiator for the eu, michel barnier, said yesterday no new proposals from the uk. He said the backstop, this is the thing weve always come back to, the eu determination to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the republic of ireland and safeguard, as they see it, the integrity of their single market. It s shorthand its known as the irish backstop. And barnier said the backstop is the maximum amount of flexibility that the eu can and will offer to a non member state. And in a negotiation hes saying that now. Well see what he says. For goodness sake, it is september. At some point youre going to have to accepted that in brussels the mindset isnt one of playing games, this is realfor them. They are not prepared to give you your cake and let you eat it too. I think that they will have an agreement. I accept that if you take them at their word now, we could say, fine, negotiations off, well all prepare for a no deal. Whos going to build the infrastructure on the Northern Ireland borderfor. To stop this sort of Free Movement . Whos going to do it . The British Government isnt going to do it, the Irish Government isnt going to do it and neither is the eu. There wont be a hard border in Northern Ireland. You point to anyone who says thats going to happen. I dont know if youve been listening to the eu but they say they will do anything on the irish border to safeguard the single market. Name a single European Union politician who says theyre going to build a hard border on the border with Northern Ireland. They will take whatever measures are necessary. They wont there is not going to be a hard border. Interestingly, from your point of view, borisjohnson insists theres alternative that can be made, Technological Solutions to this border problem. I dont know if you know, but this very day, a leak has emerged from a government report summarising the work of working group on this vexed border question, suggesting there are serious, major problems with all of the proposals put forward by Boris Johnson and members of the government. These Technological Solutions that he talks about simply arent there. Other people say they are there and they actually. But this is a government report. Other people who do this for a living say thats already happened. I was in business and i used to export all over the world and it didnt matter where i was exporting, to the eu or non eu, my goods would get there on time. When a working group is set up by the government to look at these alternative arrangements and when it concludes there are problems, you just ignore them, do you . The reputation of the government exports hasnt been very good. You just follow your gut instinct . Theres many experts who actually do this for a living who say this works. I am prepared to accept that. Youre just crossing your fingers and hoping for the best on the basis of absolutely no evidence. You go back to the point, who is going to build this hard border . You talk about it as if its going to happen. Its not going to happen. Were talking about something thats not going to happen. Im not sure youve been listening to what eu leaders have been saying, or the Irish Government, but well leave that for now. Lets think about whats going to happen over the next few days. This changes hour by hour, and i believe you and other conservative mps are going to Boris Johnson later when you leave this studio. As we speak, there are at least 15 to 20 conservative mps, including very senior recently formally cabinet ministers, who are determined to do what it takes to thwart borisjohnson if he seeks a no deal brexit. Your party is falling apart. Well, that represents, what, less than 10 of the parliamentary party. As the government has a majority of at best at one, thats rather a lot. When you talk about the conservative party, weve just had a major election contest of which two thirds of the members chose to support Boris Johnson. Hes trying to implement what the british people voted for in a referendum. I think its a bit rich if conservative mps then dont support Boris Johnson. You did fail to mention there that included in this group who are determined to thwart a no deal brexit, Philip Hammond, who until a few weeks ago was chancellor of the exchequer, who thought a no deal brexit would wreck the british economy. On Philip Hammond, he was chancellor, one of the most Senior Officers of state, and he is now trying to block the government, put an alternative government in power. Thats not how a former chancellor of the exchequer should behave. Its disgraceful. He says, and im quoting him from twitter just a very short time ago, i intend and want to honour our 2017 manifesto which promised a smooth and orderly exit and a deep and special partnership with the eu, not an undemocratic no deal. He will know that manifesto said no deal is better than a bad deal, and he supported that. Why isnt he continuing to support the government . Because there is no deal that parliament can agree. The answerfor him is he knows what damage it would do to the british economy. He stood on a manifesto saying that, he didnt say at the time we have to have a deal. He was chancellor on that manifesto and now hes not supporting it. Should Philip Hammond and david gauke, a much respected formerjustice secretary, former secretary of state for development rory stewart, should these people be expelled from the conservative party in effect if they vote with opposition parties to thwart a no deal brexit over the coming days . Well, if they vote effectively to put an alternative government in power, which i believe is the likely proposal. Well, to be honest, i think what theyre proposing at the moment is a very simple piece of legislation if they can take control of the house of commons. There we are. Thats where im going if you take control of the house of commons youre effectively putting an alternative government in power. Youre putting Jeremy Corbyn, the snp and the lib dems in power against your own government. No conservative can do that. They are quite entitled to vote that way and if their men of principle and want to do that, thats fine, but then they cant continue as a conservative. Thats clear. When david gauke says he believes borisjohnson is seeking a purge to fundamentally change the conservative party, to get all of those out of the party who still believe no deal would be disastrous for britain, youre agreeing in a sense, youre saying a purge is now necessary. Its not a purge. If you cant agree with the fundamental principle of the conservative party and the government, then by nature you cant be a conservative. Let me just stop you for a moment. There are members of the cabinet who consistently voted against theresa mays deal, the most fundamental plank of her premiership. They werent purged or expelled from the party. No, i would absolutely defend the right of individual members of parliament to vote against legislation, but the decision here is youre trying to put an alternative government in power and initiate legislation. Thats a huge difference. Will defeat for the Prime Minister and his government this week in the house of commons trigger a general election in your view . Well, it wont automatically trigger a general election because we have fixed. Theres a procedure and theres a fixed term parliaments act, which means if was a regard is this, as he seems to, a fundamental issue of confidence in him and his government, he could then seek from the house of commons permission to call an early election, but he would need a two thirds majority. Exactly, and the fixed term parliaments act, which i supported, was in fact to stop governments choosing the time they go to the polls. But as Jeremy Corbyn and the liberal democrats and the snp have always been calling for a general election, if thats what the Prime Minister says to clear this mess up, we need to decide this once and for all and i would expect parliament would agree with him. Whether that would happen first of all would depend on whether he loses the vote on tuesday. Do you think he will . No, i dont actually. The last time no deal came up it sneaks through by one vote, partly because a conservative had gone home or something. I dont think the numbers are there, but lets see. Lets just talk big picture about this situation, and it changes hour by hour, what it means for both the tory party and british democracy. The tory party is going to end up as a party of zealots, a brexit party. 17. 4 million zealots, how can you suggest that . We are representing what the british people voted for. The point about the tory party has been its always been very broad church. In the future it wont be, it will be a true blue brexit party. It will be over very broad church. Ive survived in the conservative party with ken clarke for a very long time and it will carry on being so. The point youve made is if you believe ken clarke votes alongside opposition parties to thwart a no deal brexit, he will no longer be in the conservative party. This is crucial moment for your party. If he votes to establish an alternative government then yes, anyone who does that, other than the conservative government, cant by definition be a conservative mp and they will lose the whip. If its talking about hs2 or how you deal with social care, there would be broad opinions within the conservative party. Thats the party, but the country and british democracy. We had the extraordinary moment yesterday when a Senior Member of the government, michael gove, couldnt commit to the idea that if the house of commons, then the house of lords, approves a measure to block a no deal brexit on october the 31st, ie if it passes all of its stages in the westminster parliament, he wouldnt commit that the government would then go to the queen and seek royal assent to turn that into law. What does that say about the state of british democracy, in particular the commitment of Boris Johnsons government to that democracy . Its an interesting fact and its of course happened in the past. Normally private members bills. Some private members bills have gone through all the stages in the house of commons and exactly what you talk about has happened. I think tony blair did it once and i think Harold Wilson did it twice. Of course its always the case that the only people who can legislate other than the government, introduced legislation, was private members on private members fridays. I understand where michael gove was coming from but in reality that would never happen. What would happen if somehow there is an alternative government and we have Prime Minister letwin whatever temporarily in charge of the brexit negotiations, the Prime Minister would Ask Parliament for a general election , i have no doubt. And the country would decide, would you want a brexit or wouldnt you . A couple of questions before we end about what might happen in british politics from this day forward. Is the conservative party seeking to do a deal with the brexit party in this election, which we know is coming. It might not come before october the 31st, but soon after if not before. Is the conservative party seeking to be the brexit party and to remove officially titled brexit party from the little seen . Theyre certainly not seeking to do a deal, im sure of that, but i worked with nigel farage and richard pires, john longworth. Do you regard them as political allies . In the sense they want the same thing as conservative members. To leave the eu. The conservative party as brexit party. If borisjohnson went to the country and said, look, i want a mandate to come out with no deal on the 31st of october, they would support us and if they dont do that, they will probably oppose us but thats what democracy is about. Sorry, given your relationships with these people, have you put out feelers for a deal . Absolutely not, im saying i worked with them. You would expect them not to stand . I expect from what they have said publicly, if Boris Johnson was proposing a no deal brexit they would support us. I think were getting a bit ahead. Lets see if we can win the vote. If we cant win the vote, lets see if there is a majority in the general action. My guess, and youre right, would the there would be a general election sooner rather than later, and i think thats a good thing because i do think we need to establish a conservative government with a majority. We have to end there, but i do thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. Peter bone, thank you. Thank you. Hello there. This weeks weather is looking fairly benign. Thats because weve got atlantic influence. So a mixture of conditions a bit of sunshine, some cloud, generally temperatures around the seasonal average or a little bit below. And in fact, wednesday looks like one of those ways where the temperatures will be below average. And it will be windy, as well, so that will make you feel even cooler. And the reason is because weve got this area of low pressure moving down from the north west, around our area of High Pressure. Two weather fronts on it, one bringing rain in the south east, this next one bringing plenty of showers to scotland and Northern Ireland through the day. But that rain should clear away from the south east through the morning. Skies will brighten up, but the winds will pick up from a north westerly, bringing plenty of showers into the northern half of the country. Some of these could be quite heavy, and those wind gusts, 30, 40, maybe 50 mph, could even be stronger in exposure. So itll feel cooler 10 13 degrees in the north, 17 19 across the south east. As we head through wednesday night, it stays blustery. Looks like those showers continue on for awhile, and then most of them clear away. But more return to the north and west of the country, and its to going be another cool night. In fact, temperatures in Single Digits even in towns and cities across northern areas, just about making double figures in the south. So weve still got a similar pressure pattern, with High Pressure in across the south west. This area of low pressure will bring some wetter weather and also some cooler weather as we reach friday. But for thursday, were in between systems. Well see a few showers across northern and western areas, and actually, slightly milder air moving in behind this line of showers, so we could see 15 16 degrees in the north. Further south, variable cloud, some sunny spells, just one or two showers, again the mid to high teens celsius. That area of low pressure i showed you moves in for friday, brings quite a bit of cloud, outbreaks of rain. This is a cold front moving southwards, and that again will introduce cooler north westerlies, so the temperatures will be down again on friday. 13 to around 15 or 16 in the north, 17 or 18 across the south east. That front clears through. High pressure wants to build back in as we head into the start of the weekend. Thatll introduce something a little bit milder once again, and the winds should be a bit lighter. So fairly breezy across the east coast for a while, but that High Pressure will bring lighter winds, increasing chance of sunshine around. So that will feel a little bit warmer, i think, for the start of the weekend, with the mid teens in the north. 19, maybe 20 degrees across the south east. And we hold onto this fairly benign pattern through the weekend and into next week, with atlantic air moving in on a westerly. Im kasia madera in london. The headlines a major defeat for britains Prime Minister the ayes to the right, 328. The noes to the left, 301. As mps try to block a no deal brexit. If this government is in charge and igoto if this government is in charge and i go to brussels, i will go for a deal and i believe i will get a deal. We will leave anyway, even if we dont leave on october 31. There is no consent in this house to leave the European Union without a deal. There is no majority for no deal in the country