Transcripts For BBCNEWS Victoria Derbyshire 20240714

Let me use my own words, but its not true to say that this has nothing to do with brexit. Well, if its not true, its a lie. Well, i will let people draw their own conclusions on that. Winds of up to 180mph are battering the bahamas, parts of it are already under water and some areas, you cannot tell the difference as to the beginning of the street versus where the ocean begins. And, as campaigners tell this programme protests will start again outside Primary Schools this term against the teaching of controversial relationship education, were going to replicate the lesson in the studio with this the book which is used to teach children about same sex relationships. Out came their very own baby who had fuzzy white feathers and funny black beak. Now they were fathers. We will call her tango, they decided, because it takes two to make a tango. They taught tango how to sing for them when she was hungry and they fed her food from their peaks, they fed her food from their peaks, they snuggled her in that nest at night. Tango was the very first penguin in the zoo to have two daddies. That lesson is taught to nine and ten year olds in Primary School. But today, headteacher simon kidwells audience is not a classroom full of children, but parents here in the studio and you across the country so you can decide for yourself what you think of it. Hello. Welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. If youre a parent and want to know more about what your kids are going to be taught in Primary School or youve got a question about the no outsiders books, one of which youre about to hear in full, do get in touch. And also, do you back those mps in parliament who are trying to bring in emergency legislation to stop a no deal brexit or do you want out on the 31st even if it means without a deal, if it means economic disruption . Let me know. First Carrie Gracie has the news. Thank you. Boris johnson thank you. Borisjohnson has vowed to sack conservative party rebels who backed plans to stop a no deal brexit. The warning comes ahead of a momentous week in westminster where Opposition Mps will try to pass through emergency legislation to prevent no deal ahead of the suspension of parliament next week. Formerjustice secretary david gauke told victoria he was willing to lose hisjob to vote told victoria he was willing to lose his job to vote against the government to stop a no deal brexit. I think it is very, very bad outcome andi i think it is very, very bad outcome and i have a responsibility to do something about that and if that means that my career comes to an end, i would means that my career comes to an end, iwould be means that my career comes to an end, i would be obviously very disappointed about that, it is not something i want to happen, but i do have to put what i consider to be the National Interest first. The most powerful storm to hit the bahamas since records began has torn roofs from buildings and caused severe flooding. Category five Hurricane Dorian battered the area with winds of up to 180 mph. The us state of florida, georgia, North Carolina and south caroline have all declared states of the urgency. More than a million teenage boys will miss out on potentially life saving vaccinations, a charity has warned. Teenage girls have been able to get the hpv jab teenage girls have been able to get the hpvjab in the uk since 2008 but 110w the hpvjab in the uk since 2008 but now boys aged 11 to 13 will be offered it as well. The teenage cancer trust once the Vaccination Programme to be extended to older boys and young men. The government said it would only have a limited benefit. The boss of sports direct, mike ashley, is funding a legal challenge and i got to the rescue plan for debenhams. The action has been brought by one of the reta ile rs been brought by one of the retailers landlords and, if successful, could derail the restructuring of the business. The american comedian and actor kevin hart has been hurt in a car crash in california. The police say he was treated in hospital for california. The police say he was treated in hospitalfor major california. The police say he was treated in hospital for major back injuries after the vehicle he was travelling in left the road and rolled into a ditch. Police have said the car belonged to the actor but he was not driving it at the time. Those are the headlines this morning. Back to victoria now for the rest of the programme. Thank you. Its make your mind up time for mps this week and it could be the mother of all political battles. Some mps are preparing to rush through new legislation this week to stop the uk leaving the European Union without a deal. Do you support them . Or do you want to leave on october 31st even without a deal, maybe you think the economic disruption would be worth let us know send us a tweet use the hasthag victorialive, message us on facebook or email victoria bbc. Co. Uk. Before we hear from a conservative rebel whos prepared to defy his Prime Minister to stop a no deal brexit, a conservative mp lets talk to dr hannah white from the institute for government who can explain exactly what we can all expect from the week ahead. Thank you for coming in. What are mps opposed to leaving without a deal going to do . We think theyre going to try to take control of the house of commons agenda and to pass legislation to stop borisjohnson taking the uk out of the eu without a deal. If he does not get a new deal then parliament and parliament has not said it is ok to go without a deal that he wont be able to do it. Have they got the time to get this through . Do they have the numbers and votes to get this through the commons and the house of lords question but i think until its introduced, we wont know about the numbers. The timing is really tight. But only have a few days before borisjohnson has said he will suspend parliament and we expect that to happen probably next monday so from when they sit tomorrow, they have four or five days to get a bill through the commons and lords. Michael gove yesterday refused a number of times to deny the government might ignore any new law. Could the government ignore the law . Break the law . I think it is really unthinkable that the government can say that. That it would not follow a law that had been passed. I think what he was probably implying is that when the government sees this bill, they hope there will be some kind of loophole which could mean they wont have to follow it to the letter and it wont force them to do what the rebels will hope them too. Conservative mps want to vote too. Conservative mps want to vote to stop no deal are being threatened with being thrown out of the party. Will this make any difference to the chances of this legislation getting through . My impression is that these tory mps are made up their mind already and this threat wont make a great deal of difference and whether they are in the party or not, i dont think they will be voting with the Prime Minister so it probably doesnt change the dial very much. If borisjohnson doesnt change the dial very much. If Boris Johnson is doesnt change the dial very much. If borisjohnson is threatening to throw them out of the party if they vote against him, bearing in mind he has a majority of one cup if he is prepared to lose that, does it suggest he is getting ready for a general election . I think it is clear that he would prefer to have an election. He had said he has a lot of things to do in his new queens speech and he wont be able to do any of that with his tiny majority in parliament. He has got to be looking at a way to find a way to be looking at a way to find a way to have an election. Would that action before or after october 31 that election. That is what the crucial question is and what mps wa nt to crucial question is and what mps want to satisfy themselves about. Needing an election would involve two thirds of mps voting for that and they might want to do that but not unless they are sure that we will not be leaving the eu in the course of the election campaign. Thank you very much, doctor hannah white from the institute for government. I have been talking to conservative mp david gauke, a formerjustice secretary, who has been explaining why he is prepared to vote against the government to try to stop a no deal brexit. Thank you very much for talking to us, first of all. Is the threat of checking you out of the conservative party enough to stop you voting against the government this week . No, it isnt. I mean, i dont want to leave the conservative party and i dont approve of the approach that is being taken but im in the privileged position, if you like, of being able to influence affairs. Im a member of parliament and i can do something about a no deal brexit. I do think crashing out on the 31st of october would be a big mistake for this country. Your conservative career could be over by the end of the week. Possibly. I hope thats not the case but im conscious that is a risk. Youre very calm about that. Ive thought long and hard about this and, in the end, because i have that responsibility, because i am able to influence things as a member of parliament, if i dont do what i think is right by the country, if i allow a no deal brexit to happen on the 31st of october, i will be complicit in something which i think would be bad for this country. You know, they will be people watching this programme who are going to lose theirjobs. I think in the longer term we could see the United Kingdom unravel. We could see Northern Ireland and scotland leaving the uk. I think it is a very, very bad outcome and i have a responsibility to do something about that. And if that means that my career comes to an end, i would be obviously very disappointed about that. It is not something i want to happen, but i do have to put what i consider to be the National Interest first. Why arent you giving your Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, the time to secure a deal . Well, the first to point to make is we wouldnt be moving this week, or i wouldnt be in favour of taking action this week were it not for the fact that parliament is going to close early and be suspended for five weeks. I would have preferred to have waited and taken action in a few weeks time. But this is now the only opportunity. If we dont act now, there will not be time to take the legislation through and make sure that legislation is properly enforced through the courts. But what if borisjohnson is right and you and other tory rebels, as you are now known, are wrong . He argues, as you know, that your attempts to stop no deal undermine his negotiating position because it takes the pressure off the eu. They dont have to make any concessions. I think one has to make a clear eyed assessment of the likelihood of a deal being reached in these negotiations. And the way that we have positioned ourselves seems to me to make it extremely difficult for us to reach a deal. If we can reach a deal, i will support it. But we are putting up a lot of red lines. There is an issue that needs to be addressed in terms of the Northern Ireland border, to make sure that operates properly that we have a frictionless border and we have got to find a workable way to do that. The backstop, the existing withdrawal agreement, has a solution to it. If people want to improve it then great, i will support improvements to it. But we need to have workable proposals and the uk government hasnt even come forward with its own proposals as to how to resolve this. So, you just dont believe Boris Johnson is trying to secure a deal . I think he wants to get a deal but i think if we make an honest assessment of where we are, the lack of progress that is being made, even in the uk developing its own proposals which have notjust previously been rejected because they dont work, then you take into account that youve got to get all the legislation through the house of commons and there isnt really time to do that, take into account that some of my conservative colleagues are going to vote against any deal that comes back as well. My assessment, i think there is a 95 chance that on the 31st of october we will leave without a deal if parliament does not step in. And when that likelihood is so high, i think there is a responsibility to take some action. If you succeed with this legislation this week, you delay brexit for how long and to achieve what . Well, the details well set out later today and if youll forgive me, we are not putting out all the details too early because i think that might minimise our chances of success. I think the way i would put it is we are not ruling out, and i dont want to rule out brexit, im one of those people who thinks we should leave, i just think we should leave with a deal. But it is important that Parliament Continues to have a say and that Parliament Continues to be involved in this process. I dont think the 2016 referendum gives a mandate for a no deal brexit because what was presented to the public in 2016 was a very, very different outcome to the one we are heading to on the 31st of october. Given that that doesnt provide a mandate, i think it is important, if we are going to leave on the 31st 0ctober, Parliament Approves of that course of action and i think its important that parliament, if you like, retains its influence and that is what i hope we will be able to do with legislation. You are a formerjustice secretary, you will have heard another formerjustice secretary, michael gove, on the television yesterday not ruling out the possibility of ignoring this emergency legislation, should it get through. Would that be arrogant, undemocratic and criminal, in your view . Well, look, i know michael well and i know his views that ive heard expressed around the cabinet table. He is a strong believer in the rule of law. He didnt sound like it yesterday. I think he could have been clearer about that and today i am writing to the attorney general and the lord chancellor, who are senior ministers responsible in particularfor upholding the rule of law, seeking clarification that the government doesnt believe in the rule of law because that is how our system works. That the government does believe in the rule of law. And if the government wont obey the rule of law, why should any of the rest of us . I think thats a very good point. Thats part of the system. There are times, of course, where we have legal disputes, and the government is perfectly entitled to fight cases in tribunals an appeal to particular courts, but, as a matter of principle, if the question is, will you abide by the law, the answer, for any minister, is yes. Do you think borisjohnson lied about the proroguing of parliament when he said it had nothing to do with brexit . It clearly had a lot to do with brexit. So he lied . Well, its. Let me use my own words, but its not true to say that this has nothing to do with brexit. Well, if its not true, its a lie. Well, i will let people draw their own conclusions on that. But clearly. Its clear what youre saying, that borisjohnson lied about the proroguing of parliament being nothing to do with brexit. It is clear that the proroguing of parliament was to do with brexit. And i think he. You will have to ask him as to why he justified it in the way that he did, but it was very clear to everybody that this is about brexit. So, your conservative Prime Minister is a liar. Well, that statement is, to me, not correct. Im going to leave it there. His statement rather than my statement . Yes. I wonder if you feel that you are being goaded into voting against the government this week in order for Boris Johnson to achieve his aim which is to have a general election. Yes, i think there is something in that. I look at how there has been a sort of lack of approach from the government whips and government ministers to try to dissuade me from rebelling this week and there hasnt been any approach. I do think the prorogation was deliberately designed to be provocative. So i do wonder whether the intention is that they get defeated tomorrow, that they then seek to have a general election, having, if you like, purged elements of the conservative party as a consequence. I think that is a tragic mistake for the country and for the conservative party but i think that is their strategy. Does it mean an inevitable split in the conservative party now . That does seem to be what some elements around downing street want to happen. They do want to split the party. I hope that, in the end, Boris Johnson will look at this and conclude that is not the right way forward but i do think there are elements that do seem to want to split the conservative party. I think that would be a great pity for the country, were that to happen. Is the conservative party now effectively the brexit party . think that is the direction some wa nt to ta ke think that is the direction some want to take it and again i think that would be a mistake because i think there are a lot of lifelong conservative voters whether they voted to remain or leave in 2016, still dont want the conservative party to become the brexit party, focused narrowly on one particular issue and taking a very hard line on it. And finally come to those voters and colleagues of yours who argued that you are on the wrong side of history and we have to leave on 0ctober history and we have to leave on october the 31st come what may, because people have had enough or they are prepared to put up with economic disruption in order to simply leave, and it is honouring the referendum of 2016, what you say to those . I think firstly i understand those who say we must honour the referendum and i think we should leave, but i think we should leave with a deal. The second point, there is a sense amongst the public that we need to get on with it and get it behind us but the reality is that if we leave without a deal on the 31st of october, in the end we are going to have to have a deal with the European Union of some sort, not as members of the eu, but ata sort, not as members of the eu, but at a really important trading bloc and we have to have a relationship with them. That will require a negotiation and we are going to be talking about the Northern Ireland border, about money, about a citizens rights. Border, about money, about a citizens rights. Its not over on 0ctober citizens rights. Its not over on october 31. It will not be over and i worried there are people watching the programme who will say, i want to get it behind us and at least borisjohnson will get it over and done with and when we are into november we can move on. Farfrom it. Not only will we be dealing with the short term disruption but also our long term relationship and im afraid, programmes like this will be dominated by our relationship with the European Union for years to come if we leave in a disorderly way. The European Union for years to come if we leave in a disorderly waylj said finally but i want to remind you of your holiday which was not that long ago and a photograph you treated with a unicorn in the background government source has said about this, david gauke has been taking photos on holiday with a unicorn, we have been working around the clock. Isnt that the point . Downing street are always one step ahead are people like yourself. Shall we see what happens in the course of the next week. Swimming in the pool is not the only thing i have done this summer, nor others, so lets see how it plays out. Thank you for talking to us. We asked the government to talk to us this morning but they said no one was available. We can speak now to the conservative mp Pauline Latham who supports the Prime Ministers plan to leave without a deal, and labour mp ben bradshaw whos campaigning against a no deal brexit. He would like a further referendum. Pauline latham, what you think about your party which apparently does not have room for people like david gauke . He says he wants to leave the European Union but he is going about ita European Union but he is going about it a very strange way. I dont want to leave without a deal, as most people dont. I would like a deal but it takes two to do a deal. Is it right he should be sacked if he votes against the government this week . Yes, because what he is doing is voting to take power away from the government, stopping the government of the date having any power to legislate or do anything. But this is a man who voted three times for mrs mays withdrawal agreement, something i dont think even you did possibly want to leave the eu but wants to leave with a deal. Yes, but by voting for that deal, you were actually voting to have one foot in and one foot out of europe which was not ideal and not what we wanted. And not what the public voted for either. Do you agree with him when he says Boris Johnson wasnt telling the truth when he said prorogation was nothing to do with brexit . No, because we have to have a queens speech, we have to have a queens speech, we have not had one for two years and we have to prorogue to do that and to say it is five weeks prorogation, technically, yes, but we were not going to be sitting during the conference going to be sitting during the co nfe re nce recesses , going to be sitting during the conference recesses, as we never do. To say that select committees to sit is rubbish. Do think that people are buying that, do you think theyre stupid . Of course people are not stupid, that is why they voted to leave the European Union but its a very different matter voting against a policy to voting against allowing the government of the day to proceed. Let me bring in bed by chuck. Can ijust correct something, mrs latham claimed parliament would not be sitting for the next three weeks because of the conference recess, she knows thats wrong because we were going to vote this week to cancel the conference recess is simply untrue to say that Boris Johnson did not Prorogue Parliament for five weeks. Lets deal with this week. What you say to some of your labour colleagues who might be considering voting with the government because they dont want to stop no deal because they represent leave constituencies . We have heard this before and it has never actually materialised. At this very point, the only consequence of voting with the government, or not voting with the government, or not voting with the majority of the house of commons this week, will be to save borisjohnson house of commons this week, will be to save Boris Johnson as house of commons this week, will be to save borisjohnson as Prime Minister, a man who is closing down parliament, committing a coup against our parliamentary democracy, i very much doubt that more than one or two labour mps would be prepared to do that. What you to them . It is completely up to them. They will not be chucked out of the party, unlike what borisjohnson is trying to do, which is what chamberlain tried to do incidentally against winston churchill, get him deselected and it is fantastic, the brave conservative politicians like david gauke are prepared to put the National Interest first, like churchill did in1940, interest first, like churchill did in 1940, rather than be bullied by the current day chamberlain, Boris Johnson. It would seem Boris Johnson, according to people who know him well, seems to want a general election. Are you going to give him that . He cant get it without two thirds of mps voting for it so its not in his gift. Having called for a general election for two years as a labour mp, you would not vote one if he decided he wanted one . I and i think the vast majority of labour mps including our front bench will not help mrjohnson engineera general bench will not help mrjohnson engineer a general election on his terms to crash as out of the eu without a deal. That is the elephant trap that tony blair is warning about today, you will not fall into that . I have not heard his speech but i think he is right to one about that danger and but i think he is right to one about that dangerand im but i think he is right to one about that danger and im absolutely confident that Jeremy Corbyn and the whole of our front bench are cognisant of that danger. What will happen . Lets let you get your legislation through, what happens then . Lets not get ahead of ourselves, its not a foregone conclusion, the votes can be tight. We won a similar vote in a similar matter by one vote in march but i think the threat that mrjohnson has made against decent conservative mps like david gauke have, if anything, strengthened their resolve to do what they know it in the countrys interests. Lets say that he chucks out any conservative mp that votes against him this week, he loses his majority, he calls a general election, you say labour mps would not vote for it so he would not get the two thirds majority to hold one, are we stuck . Do we still leave without a deal on october 31 . |j think it bases depends on what the basis of that general election it and mps would want to examine it carefully but we have talked about other alternatives such as a National Emergency government to get an extension either for a referendum which is my preference or for a general election but with an extension to article 50 so we are not having a general election when we crashed out already. Thank you for coming on, ben bradshaw and Pauline Latham. Obviously a huge week and we will keep you right across week and we will keep you right a cross every week and we will keep you right across every twist and turn as we are live from westminster tomorrow. Campaigners have told this programme that they intend to resume their protests outside Primary Schools this term against the teaching of relationship education. Last School Year Groups of mainly muslim parents held regular demonstrations outside two schools in birmingham where children had lessons that included lgbt issues. There were smaller protests in other parts of the country. One of the programmes available to schools is the no outsiders series, which teaches primary age children about different types of relationships. Some of the protestors object in particular to one of the books, and tango makes three, which is about two gay penguins who raise a chick together. Today, here in the studio, were going to replicate a Primary School relationships education lesson that uses that book, to let you know the facts about whats in it. Simon kidwell is head teacher at Hartford Manor Primary School and nursery in cheshire. Hes introduced the books in his school and has agreed to come to our studio today to teach you the same lesson nine and 10 year olds in his school receive. Weve got a studio full of parents, teachers, authors and activists. Thank you for doing the lesson for us. Thank you for doing the lesson for us. You brought a selection of some of the books with you. There are 35 in total. How many of them have same sex or trans it seems . Proximately five out of the 35 explore those themes. Approximately. What is the point of them . Firstly we want children to know that families have different shapes and we also want children to know about that Great British value of tolerance, where we accept people who are different and respect people who are different and respect people who actually disagree with us. Would you invite parents to look at these books before you can teaching these lessons . Books before you can teaching these lessons . Absolutely. When we introduced the scheme we invited all the parents into a meeting where we shed not just the the parents into a meeting where we shed notjust the books but the lesson plans because there are detailed lesson plans that go with it and we asked parents about the questions they were concerned over and also let them know when it was being taught so if there was a conflict between traditional religious beliefs, they can talk about that in their home when we have done the lesson. You are going to give us an audience and across the country a lesson that you would give to your pupils, to year five in primary which is the second to last year of Primary School, featuring one of the most controversial of the books, and tango makes three. In your own time. Hello, class. Were going to look at a book called and tango makes three. Have a look at the front cover and tell me what you think it might be about. Penguins. Three penguins. Would it surprise you if i told you this book was banned in some countries . Some nodding. It is banned in singapore and also in hong kong any clues on the front cover about why . Because they know it has an underlying agenda, thats why its been banned. Shall we read the book and find out . Isnt it a true story . Its based on wa nt isnt it a true story . Its based on want but lets read it and we can find out. In the middle of new york there was a great big park called central park. Children love the playing of air. It had a toy boat pond where they could sail boats, a carousel to ride on in the summer and an ice rink to skate on in the winter. Best of all, it has its very own zoo. Every day, families go to visit all the animals that live there. But children and their parents arent the only families at the zoo. The animals make families about own, red panda families with mothers and fathers and furry red panda cubs. Monkey mums and dads raising noisy monkey babies. There total families and two can families and cotton topped tamarind families as well. And in the Penguin House, there are penguin families. Every year at the same time, the girl penguins start noticing the boy penguins and the boy penguins start noticing the girls. When the right girl and write boy find each other, they become a couple. Two penguins in the pengin house were a bit different. One was named roy and the other named silo. They were both boys but they did everything together they bowed to each other, and walked together. They sang to each other and swam together. Wherever roy went, silo went too. They did not spend much time with the girl penguins and the girl penguins did not spend much time with them. Instead, roy and silo round their necks around each other. Their zookeeper noticed the penguins and thought to himself, they must be in love. Every night,. Every morning, roy and silo woke up. Every morning, roy and silo woke up together. But one day, they saw that the other couples to do something they couldnt. The mummy penguin would lay an egg, and she and daddy penguin would take turns keeping it warm untilfinally, it would hatch. And then there would bea it would hatch. And then there would be a happy baby penguin. Roy and silo had no eggs to keep warm. One day, roy found something that looked like what the other penguins were hurting and he brought it to their nest. It was only a rock, but protect carefully sat on it, and sat and sat. When he got sleepy, he slept, and when he had finished sleeping and sitting, he swam and roy sat. Day after day, silo and roy sat on the rocks, but nothing happened. Then mr renzi had an idea, he found an egg that needed to be cared for and he brought it to roy and silos nest. They knewjust what to do, they moved it to the centre of their nest, every day they turned to it so each side stayed warm. Some days, roy sat, while silo went for food. Other days it was silos turn. They sat in the morning, they sat at night, they sat through lunchtime and swimming time and supper. They sat at the beginning of the month, and they sat at the end of the month, and they sat all the days in between. Until one day, they heard a sound coming from the egg. Beep, beep, it said. They called back, squawk, squawk. Beep, beep, answered the egg. Suddenly a tiny hole appeared in the shell of the egg, and then, crack, out came their very own baby. She had fussy white feathers and a funny black beak. Now roy and silo were fathers. We will call her tango, they decided, because it takes two to make a tango. Roy and silo taught tango how to sing for them when showers hungry, they fed herfood to sing for them when showers hungry, they fed her food from their beaks, they smuggled her in their nest at night. Tango was the very first penguin in the zoo to have two daddies. Soon, tango grow Strong Enough to leave the nest. Roy and silo took herfor a enough to leave the nest. Roy and silo took her for a swim, just like all the other penguin families. And all the other penguin families. And all the other penguin families. And all the children who came to the zoo could see that tango and their two fathers were playing in the Penguin House with the other penguins. Hurray, welcome, tango, they cheered. At night the three penguins returned to their nest. They snuggled together and like all the other penguins in the Penguin House and all the other animals in the zoo and all the other animals in the zoo and all the other animals in the zoo and all the other families and all the other animals in the zoo and all the otherfamilies in and all the other animals in the zoo and all the other families in the big city around them, they went to sleep. So, weve read the book, now what do you think this book is about . Happy families. Any other things . Manipulation, corruption. Where was that . on balance of life . A child cannot have two dads. The most important thing about the story, there was two penguins couldnt produce their own egg. Story, there was two penguins couldnt produce their own eggm is based on a true story, though. For me i think we are just losing the point, if we focus on the penguins, the book is that we have all got an intrinsic desire to love and be loved, and that is what the book is about. The penguins are good parents, weather they were same sex or not. Definitely. The fact that he has to steal an egg, we do not know where it came from, somebody was missing an egg. I dont think we need to go into the mechanics of the zoo need to go into the mechanics of the zoo story. You said it was based on a true story. Can i listen to the gentleman at the back . As i said earlier there is an underlying agenda to this. I dont know what the author was thinking when they wrote that book but i know the underlying agenda in my school is about teaching tolerance. Its not to do with tolerance. Its the emotion of lgbt lifestyle. The teaching in my lifestyle. That is 0k, teaching in my lifestyle. That is ok, so what is the problem with an lg bt lifestyle . Ok, so what is the problem with an lgbt lifestyle . Because you cannot promote it to other children in the form of a book. The person stole an 399 form of a book. The person stole an egg based on their feelings, they said that two eggs were in love, where did that come from, that is somewhats feelings and they decided to steal an egg and give it to two people. I am going to swap for a second, may i for as in a normal classroom, you would not be allowed to talk all over each other. But clearly we can hear some objections, we can hear some people who think it is absolutely fine, the way it was taught and the content of what was taught. Nigel evans was just about to speak, a conservative mp, who is 93v to speak, a conservative mp, who is gay. Did you have any issues with the content and the way it was taught . No, but i might have done 30 yea rs taught . No, but i might have done 30 years ago, but we have moved on since then, i have changed my views completely. I didnt come out openly as gay until i was in my 50s. When i was growing up in swansea i wish i had been introduced to lessons just like that, and a lot of my friends are. Why . It may well have been that i would have come out openly as gay not thinking that something was wrong, that i would have frustrated or hidden my feelings, which are absolutely natural, which are portrayed in that book. And sadly weve heard a few views this morning which seem to suggest to me that there is something wrong in somebody who is either lesbian, gay, or of some other natural feelings. And that does disturb me and i am not surprised, simon, that those books are banned in some countries because ive talked to a lot of politicians from a number of countries where its illegal to be gay. And that is absolutely bonkers in the 21st century. Let me bring in karen, are you moved by Harry Nigel Evans has described the way he had to grow up and it took him until his 50s before he was able to live openly as a gay man . Because its not natural, its not the way of life. The way of life isa man not the way of life. The way of life is a man and a woman. Youre not moved at all by the way he felt he had to hide his true self . Im not, because i wasnt brought up that way, so it is not natural. May i ask a question, what would happen if one of your children, i presume you are a parent. Yes, iam. Were gay, would you want them to hide it, would you want them to hide it, would you want them to wait till they were 50 and possibly be suicidal, self harming . They were 50 and possibly be suicidal, selfharming . If im being honest, yes i would. You would wa nt honest, yes i would. You would want them to have Mental Health issues because of your religious beliefs. Would that make you a bigot . It wouldnt, it isjust what the bible states, what my home belief is, if they would come to me and say that they are, i would instruct them that is not normal. M is not for you to say what is normal. Two men does not reproduce, two women does not reproduce. They can make very good parents if given a chance. And there are plenty of heterosexual couples, male and female, who cant reproduce naturally, and they adopt kids and become parents. How is it natural if you cant bonkers sorry, go on, saskl you cant bonkers sorry, go on, saski. So, the fact is, parents are parents. You talk about a natural form but if somebody is going to become a parent, if you cant naturally reproduce, have babies, then you can still adopt kids and there is plenty of parents out there who are happy loving families that have adopted kids and are still great parents, regardless of their gender or sexual orientation. But youre giving children a balanced view of what it would be naturally so view of what it would be naturally so youre giving a child a mother and father, it should be. But also i wa nt and father, it should be. But also i want to address quickly, in the term of always asking about what would you do if your child was gay, what would you do if your child has been raised with two fathers or two mothers turns around and says, why did you not give me a mother or father . I can tell you that my son has two mums and he is one of the happiest kids i know. Obviously i am biased but. But if he asks about a father. Parents are parents regardless. If you come from a happy loving family, that is the most important thing. Let me move to the back row, do introduce yourself, if you would, you and your wife took your sons out of school, to homeschool because you objected to a transit child in the class. Homeschool because you objected to a transit child in the classlj homeschool because you objected to a transit child in the class. I am nigel. Im sally. Iwant transit child in the class. I am nigel. Im sally. I want to make something clear here, in the media they ban these things about christians being bigoted and homophobic. Can i ask you, nigel, i want to bring it back to today, what did you think of that lesson . can see exactly what its about, that lesson really is about indoctrinating our children we should have the choice to decide. In what way . Indoctrinating into the lg bt lifestyle which we in what way . Indoctrinating into the lgbt lifestyle which we as committed christians, we have the Gold Standard which is married between one woman and one man for life. When you say indoctrinating, do you mean encouraging them to become gay, to accept that gay people exist . Definitely, those books, when i read them, i recognised that there was an underlying agenda to push this agenda. In children. Ijust want to speu agenda. In children. Ijust want to spell it out exactly what youre saying. To indoctrinate them to what . To believe that its normal. It is it is its not normal. Other sciences there. Unido manner the woman. Sciences there. Unido manner the woman. Were not going to go into the science. I want to bring in a young gay man, olly pike, you have written some of these books, ijust wa nt written some of these books, ijust want you to react when you hear somebody say it is not normal, how do you respond to that, and lets be respectful . It is absolutely normal for me and half this room, probably. Actually this is about saving lives. We know that lgbt related bullying is the most common form of bullying in uk schools. We know that one in five lgb students and almost half of trans students have five lgb students and almost half of tra ns students have attempted five lgb students and almost half of trans students have attempted to ta ke trans students have attempted to take their own life. Why would these lessons reduce those numbers, do you believe . Because once children are taught about lg bt believe . Because once children are taught about lgbt bullion, then the bullying goes down in the school . You know this . Can ijust add to that, i work with ollie sometimes andl that, i work with ollie sometimes and i am an educator in schools and workplaces so i work with so many young lg bt students workplaces so i work with so many young lgbt students and non lgbt students about awareness about lgbt families and lifestyles and people in general, who are by the wayjust regular human beings, that we do see, even ofsted have reported in many of the scores that statistically, homophobic and transphobic bullying has been reduced. You mentioned of spread, eli spitzer is a head teacher of a school which has been rated inadequate by ofsted because you dont teach these relationship lessons and in their view, that is letting down the pupils, it is failing in an element of their development. It is an Orthodox Jewish school, why dont you teach relationship lessons . Im really glad you asked, actually in the Orthodox Jewish community there is glad you asked, actually in the orthodoxjewish community there is a com pletely orthodoxjewish community there is a completely separate issue. Parents ina part completely separate issue. Parents in a part of the orthodoxjewish community, commonly referred to as the charedi community, dont want their Childs School to discuss anything remotely related to sex or sexuality. It isnt actually the lg bt sexuality. It isnt actually the lgbt side of the arguing, that is a red herring because theyjust want dont want to go anywhere near sex or sexuality. Even simons lesson which i very much enjoyed, parents in my community would object to it, even the phrases such as together or falling in love, regardless of whether this is a homosexual relationship or heterosexual relationship, is not something that they want their childs in school to discuss. Do you think your parents, and usa had teacher, do you accept that everybody according to the law has to be treated equally . Of course, most definitely. The follow up question to that is, do you accept that if you dont talk to Primary School kids, nine year olds and ten year olds, about the fact that different kind of family units and same sex relationships exist, thenit and same sex relationships exist, then it makes it harderfor and same sex relationships exist, then it makes it harder for those same sex relationships to flourish . No, i dont accept that. And could lead to discover nation . The new guidance, which many schools will be implementing from now, which comes into effect in september 2020, clearly states that the schools with a faith character are allowed to teach their own religions opposition to homosexuality, but they should also teach that we should be respect for and tolerant. But another thing, Orthodox Jewish schools actually choose to do neither. We censor our own biblical verses which oppose homosexuality because parents do not want their schools to discuss sex and sexuality at all. Is this the same in all Orthodox Jewish schools, at all. Is this the same in all orthodoxjewish schools, because your kids go to one, Yehudis Fletcher . Yes, they go to a school where they do discuss sex and sexuality, heterosexual, homosexual relationships, i havent heard any opposition from the parents. To be clear, what goes on in Primary Schools is nothing to do with actually having sex, its about. No one is talking about the mechanics of sex, it is about families. And it is an orthodox school, and that is ok with you . Absolutely, yeah. Do you understand what eli spitzer is saying, some parents dont want any discussion about anything . Yeah, i am very familiar with that kind of setup. And is it acceptable . No. And there isa and is it acceptable . No. And there is a couple of points i want to pick up is a couple of points i want to pick up on, olly pike, you said it is about safeguarding, and that is what i would come back to. For me this is not about bullying which might occur or might not occur, this is about the children themselves. There will bea the children themselves. There will be a percentage of children in every school who are themselves lgbt . Those children need to be safeguarded, not necessarily even from bullion, because if children dont know what it means to be gay, they are not going to bully other 95v they are not going to bully other gay children. I am talking about children who are likely to be pressured into early marriage, which is always going to be heterosexual. Children whojust is always going to be heterosexual. Children who just never see families but looked like the families they could have, children who feel suicidal, who are self harming. Could have, children who feel suicidal, who are selfharming. Can ijust suicidal, who are selfharming. Can i just respond to suicidal, who are selfharming. Can ijust respond to that. This is not an issue necessarily for schools. You take issue with the way parents choose to bring up their children. It is for schools to be the educators, for parents to bring up their children. If a school doesnt have a mandate for parents to discuss these issues, then schools should stay well away from it. That is enough now, hang on, excuse me. School can also be a safe space. am going to read some messages from people watching around the country. This one says. I guess the story of the penguins is a positive starting point but my year olds knowledge and experience is way ahead of this. This one says. This should not be taught as long as some pa rents should not be taught as long as some parents do not want it taught to their children. This one says. Acce pta nce their children. This one says. Acceptance and tolerance absolutely needs to be taught from an early age, especially where the parents seem age, especially where the parents seem incapable of doing this. It is disgusting that demonstrations like this are happening and i really hope the schools did not back down and give into bullying. This one says. Asa mum give into bullying. This one says. As a mum and grandma and i know that children will learn about different types of relationships at school, whatever we do. My question is do we wa nt whatever we do. My question is do we want them to learn in the classroom or in the playground . In the classroom it can be done in a sensitive and respect for miller, in the playground they may learn intolerance and bigotry. Let me bring in amirahmed, intolerance and bigotry. Let me bring in amir ahmed, father of seven, bring in amir ahmed, father of seven, none bring in amir ahmed, father of seven, none of them now at Primary School, i think the youngest is just about to start secondary, youve been pretty instrumental in some of the protests outside Primary Schools in birmingham, are we going to see more of those protests this term . What i find quite incredible. M you could just answer the question . Yes, there will be protests, and the reason being is that simon, an educationalist, he has read this book, and there is a clear ideological message for four year old children in this book. Nine year olds. Well, this book is designed, and mum, mummy and me, and other books, they start at four year olds. Other books, they start at fouryearolds. Mama, mummy and me isa fouryearolds. Mama, mummy and me is a lesbian couple raising a child. Lets talk about what people have heard today because then they know what we are talking about. It is about same sex families and the message is the same. We have had children come home saying, we want two mums, because of the teaching. Young children, four or five two mums, because of the teaching. Young children, four orfive years old, and it is confusing children, and this is an ideological. In the no outsiders programme. What is the ideology, describe it . Let me tell you, victoria, it was a half £1 million project funded by the government, no outsiders. To do what . It was to. It was how to. The researchers in this project, if you read the report, they are talking about how to query the classroom. How to what . How to query the classroom. Meaning what . Exactly, i didnt know what this term meant. And this term. Make kids gay . I am just trying to understand this. Not quite make them, but introducing ideology and ideas at a young age, where children grow up and they accept this sexual agenda ideology. Nigel evans, it is your government which is making this compulsory. This is not compulsory. From next year. No, its not, actually it is ofsted and the Head Teachers Union and the Teachers Union which are pushing this and interpreting legislation in their own way, and its the radical left who are pushing this. The radical left, including conservative mp nigel evans. What really mystifies me about all of this sort of attitude is that when i was growing up, allthe attitude is that when i was growing up, all the messages that were being sent to me, whether it was officially or unofficially, was that, if you had gay feelings, that there was something wrong with you, and you had to suppress that sort of thing. Ive got to say, even growing up thing. Ive got to say, even growing up as thing. Ive got to say, even growing upasi thing. Ive got to say, even growing up as i did. You would think actually that i. Youre a member of parliament, you should have found out more about whats happening in the protests, i as a campaigner will not accept anyone who is homophobic in my campaign. Your campaign is homophobic. Lets bring in Khakan Qureshi, dont talk over each other, im so sorry but this is my classroom now why do you say it is homophobic, why is it not simply pa rents homophobic, why is it not simply parents like karen francis, like suzuka, good parents like karen francis, like suzu ka, good parents, parents like karen francis, like suzuka, good parents, who want to ta ke suzuka, good parents, who want to take their children away from this kind of lesson, because it is up to them how they bring their children up them how they bring their children up when it comes to these things . respect that but at the same time. Youre calling them homophobic so you dont really. They are homophobic because they are denying our existence, they dont want to face up to. They dont want to face up to. They dont want to face up to what they call an lgbt life style, face up to what they call an lgbt lifestyle, first of all, what is that . I lifestyle, first of all, what is that . Lam lifestyle, first of all, what is that . I am who i am and that is it. They are constantly at the gates of anderton parc primary and parkfield, chanting homophobic tweets, saying, let kids be kids, and also, we dont wa nt let kids be kids, and also, we dont want our kids to be taught gay. The protesters have never said anything homophobic. We are accepting you as individuals, it is your ideology that we dont accept. We dont have an ideology. These are values, family values, that you have. Let him speak. What i am saying is. As individuals, we do respect you. Within aspects of religions, it talks about accepting people for who they are, how they come about and all the best of it and within the Muslim Community and within christianity, that is the ethos that we are brought up with. Youre supposed to be there to respect people because at the end of the day, according to religion, we are brothers and sisters. day, according to religion, we are brothers and sisters. I have always treated kha kan qureshi brothers and sisters. I have always treated Khakan Qureshi with respect. What was it like for you growing up asa what was it like for you growing up as a gay muslim kid . what was it like for you growing up as a gay muslim kid . I grew up and i had to hide it, it impeded my development, impacted on my Mental Health, i was incredibly shy and anxious and i had to learn to find my voice to become who i am today. can see youre behind you rolling her eyes, why is that . Time and time again we keep on hearing you yourself, talking about your experiences, this is not about you, this is about our children. I was a child. We are not stopping you, we are not stopping any child that identifies with lgbt. What were saying is, these are our children that we want to raise within our beliefs, we want them to go to school, receive an education, the same as you. We are not denying that, what has your experience as a child got to do with our children . just feel like, they are happy for their children to learn about other religions, i am guessing, which also goes against your beliefs, but i feel like you are singling out the lg bt feel like you are singling out the lgbt community. You havent asked, if it was about learning another religion, i would do that as well, i would withdraw my child from learning. But we have been learning. But we have been learning about religion for years, my daughter has already been learning about different religions. Are you happy for your children to learn about other religions . are you happy for your children to learn about other religions . If i was asked, and i saw what was being taught and i didnt agree with it, i would want that opportunity to re move would want that opportunity to remove my child. So youre saying you dont want your child to be educated or anything else but what you believe. I want my child to go to school to receive an academic education, not to learn about what other people do in their homes or anything else. I run an organisation and we have a lot of autistic children, we have children that come in that ourtrams, children, we have children that come in that our trams, that are gay, and these kids have had to leave school, a lot of them, because of the ostracise ocean, because there is no education, and their peers arent taught acceptance. And these kids ourselves injuring, they are suicidal, i have had a message yesterday son committed suicide four months ago because he was gay, because he was not accepted. So, for you to be saying that. Hearing that, that is very sad and poignant, how do you respond to that . that, that is very sad and poignant, how do you respond to that . I am a mother and a teacher. how do you respond to that . I am a mother and a teacher. I am an educator, by the way. mother and a teacher. I am an educator, by the way. I think it is so educator, by the way. I think it is so important that we show respect for every child, that children learn that bullying is totally out of order, we do need to accept that there are differences, and we have compassion. But. Buti there are differences, and we have compassion. But. But i also think it is important that we protect childrens innocence and purity. What is not innocent about that book . The problem is that it does actually cause confusion. If i am a ten year old boy, i actually cause confusion. If i am a ten year old boy, lam actually cause confusion. If i am a ten year old boy, i am saying, who is my best friend . It is going to be a boy, at ten. Your best friend is a boy. Troy, you are a head teacher, you asked what is not innocent about that book, what else would you like to say . I would like to know what you find offensive about a picture book. Because actually there is a group of 35 books that we use there, a proportion of them have some lgbt themes. But in a school, we have got thousands of books, thousands of books. And some of these children dont have representation in those thousands of books. We need to give everybody representation. We are coming to the end of the programme, you havent spoken. My issue is com pletely you havent spoken. My issue is completely unrelated to everybody else, it is not the fact that it is being introduced, and the way it is introduced, everyone should have tolerance for the way that they are, however, my issue is that by trying to promote equality, you are infringing of the rights of another group, another community, which is the parents. I was brought up in a muslim household where being homosexual wasnt not right, and it wasnt ok. Ive grown up to have gay friends, members of my extended family that are gay, i am very tolera nt of family that are gay, i am very tolerant of them, i think the issue is the parents teaching the children to be decent, tolerant, human beings, and not necessarily the schools being in charge of how they are introducing the idea of homosexuality. I am just going to read a couple more comments. This one says. Read a couple more comments. This one says. Good on the victoria tea m one says. Good on the Victoria Team for doing this, this is something you would never see on television in the us. George says. Iama television in the us. George says. I am a committed christian on the high anglican faith, i am a bisexual man with many lgbt christian friends, i would like to say the vast majority of christians have a sensible, non radicalview vast majority of christians have a sensible, non radical view of the bible. Thank you for giving up your time today, really appreciate it, thank you. We are back tomorrow at ten, have a good day. Good morning, it is wet and windy, the rain pushing eastwards across much of scotland and Northern Ireland. Eventually it will work into northern england, too. Further south, it is a drier picture. We have got some brightness around which will last longest towards south eastern areas of england. Quite cloudy and murky still towards western coasts with possibly some showers. Top temperatures on a par with yesterday perhaps a slightly warmer. Those showers will continue eastwards over night tonight, a cloudier, milderfeeling eastwards over night tonight, a cloudier, milder feeling night eastwards over night tonight, a cloudier, milderfeeling night than last night, underneath all that cloud. Overnight lows are staying in double figures. There will be some hill fog out towards western coasts again tomorrow. A fairly similar looking day to today. Further south at ease, it is a drier, brighter picture. Youre watching bbc newsroom live. Its11am and these are the main stories this morning downing street warns conservative mps to back borisjohnson, or face the sack, ahead of a critical week at westminster. What we want to see is all conservative mps rallying behind him this week, making sure he has the best opportunity to deliver on that commitment. But tory rebels say the government wants a general election and is trying to purge opponents from the party. Its obviously a confrontational approach, and i think design, frankly, to realign the conservative party, to transform the conservative party, to transform the conservative party, very much in the dell with the direction of a brexit party