Its been reported that President Trump might like to buy the arctic territory. At 10pm, clive myrie will be here with a full round up of the days news. Will be here with a full first, Stephen Sackur interviews roger hallam, the co founder of Extinction Rebellion, a movement dedicated to mass resistance and civil disobedience; how far are these climate rebels prepared to go . Welcome to hardtalk, im Stephen Sackur. Back in 2015, the nations of the world made a formal commitment to act to keep Global Warming well below two degrees centigrade. So much for fine words global Greenhouse Gas emissions are still rising. The data suggest the planet is warming at an alarming rate. What to do about it . Well, my guest today is roger hallam, co founder of Extinction Rebellion, a movement dedicated to mass resistance and civil disobedience. How far are the climate rebels prepared to go . Roger hallam, welcome to hardtalk. There is, and has been for years, no shortage of activist groups committed to fighting for the cause of fighting Climate Change. Why the need now for Extinction Rebellion . Well, i think the reason is really straightforward as millions of people around the world have realised that it comes to the point where something drastic has to happen, and nothing is happening. And that means that we have to start breaking the law in order to make change happen. You say nothing is happening. That seems to defy the truth that we see around us. Not only are there heaps of different activist organisations working to further the ideas behind mitigating Climate Change, but governments around the world, as i mentioned in the introduction, have signed up to the paris agreement. They are committed to doing what it takes. Well, theres a massive lie going on, which is things are happening. But theyre not, and billions of people have realised that the governments have been lying for the last 30 years, and the elites have been lying, and the experts have been lying. And the reason theyve been lying is because theyve said that Carbon Emissions will go down, and theyre going to act to make sure they go down, but they havent. Theyve gone up 60 since 1990, and they re still going up, as you said. They went up 1. 6 two years ago and 2. 7 last year. So this was the decade when it was all supposed to stop happening, wasnt it . But its not, so people are very angry. People are in a rage. People dont want their kids to die. You know, this is. Theres no words to describe how serious it is. But i guess what im getting to is this point. Whats different about you . I mean, weve had, for example, the leader of greenpeace in this studio. Hes talked in very similar terms about the alarming rate of the warming of the planet. Hes talked about the rise in emissions, hes talked about the concentration of c02 in the atmosphere getting worse, all of that stuff. I mean, so on the science, theres no disagreement. But are you saying that groups like greenpeace and many, many others have fundamentally failed in their mission to convince the world that things need to change . Yes. We have fundamentally failed. I mean, ive failed, other activists have failed, campaigners have failed weve all failed. The fact of the matter is were facing massive starvation in the next ten years, social collapse, and the possible extinction of human rights. It couldnt be worse. And that situation has come about over 30 years of failure failure by the elites, failure by the governments, and failure by campaigners. So your message is entirely about failure, its about negativity. It is in a way, i suppose, a howl of rage and despair. Thats right, it is. And you think that is a message that the people of the world and the political leaders of the world are going to respond to . Yes, and the reason why is because, when people go through depression and rage, they come out and decide to do things. And Extinction Rebellion is the most successful Climate Change movement in the uk. 0nly set up a year ago, its got 100,000 people signed up to it. Its mass civil disobedience. Its changed the conversation in this country, and the reason why its done that is because its dedicated to telling the truth. And the truth is were in this beyond terrible situation, and its been brought about by the elites and the governments lying to people and misleading people over 30 years. But arent you lying and misleading people too . Because youre suggesting its possible, for example in the united kingdom, where the group was founded, that we could in the uk move to net zero Carbon Emissions by 2025. And that really isnt possible. Of course its possible. Anything is possible. Its a matter of whether there is the political will. 0k, let me rephrase the question. Its not possible within the framework of our capitalist economy without causing unimaginable damage to peoples lives. Well, the damage is imaginable, and its proportionate, and its necessary, because the alternative is a social collapse. Thats the fundamental realisation people have come to. Theres not a third option here, of carrying on business as usual. See, the problem is, and the reason i began by discussing where you sit within this sort of Climate Change and environmental movement, is that youre an outlier among so many people who agree, like you, that there is now a Climate Emergency. For example, the energy and climate intelligence unit, which sympathises with much of the message that you deliver, does not sympathise at all with some of the objectives and targets you lay out, because they say that, for example, the net zero emissions by 2025 is technically, economically and politically impossible. It has absolutely no chance of being fulfilled. Well, they are wrong. You know, we can do whatever we like in our society. Its a matter of whether were prepared to undertake the costs of that. The fact of the matter is, and this is the main point that Extinction Rebellion is trying to say, its over, right, for civilisation. The reason its over is because of the hard physics. Were not making a political point or an ideological point or, you know, trying to be awkward, or all the rest of it. Were simply saying that science is real. If the science is real, it means were facing social collapse. The reason were facing social collapse is because of mass starvation, and the reason were going to have mass starvation is because of the collapse in our weather systems around the world. Yes, but im talking about the degree to which you say action, the most radicalform of action, has to be completed within the next six years, which is what youre saying. Youre suggesting youre setting a target which would mean people couldnt use Combustion Engine vehicles anymore. They couldnt fly anymore. They couldnt use gas to heat their homes anymore. And i put it to you that suggesting that is possible makes you a fantasist. Its like going to the doctor and the doctor says youve got cancer, and if you carry on as normal, youre definitely going to die, 0k . Or you can try and change, but you might still die. Those are the options for the human race now, if were to believe the science. With respect, i dont think the science is saying that were all going to die within six years. No, no, no, no. What the science is saying is, if theres not fundamental, major change in the structure of the Global Economy in the next ten years, then were heading for catastrophe. And what that means is were going to be heading for mass social collapse and mass starvation. Do you acknowledge that the message youre peddling, and its full of past failure, deep negativity, the most urgent of alarms and emergencies for right now, do you accept that it cant be successful as a sort of Movement Without taking the public with you . The public is starting to get round to the idea that were facing social collapse. But before april, before there were 1,200 arrests in the streets of london, in the biggest civil disobedience protest in british history, the British Public didnt have any opinion on the Climate Emergency. Afterwards, 67 of the British Public believe can agree there is one. You want to bring down the capitalist system as we know it. The capitalist system is going to be brought down by itself. The capitalist system is eating itself. But your point about the. No, let me make this point clear, right . The capitalist system, the global system were in here, is in the process of destroying itself, and it will destroy itself in the next ten years. The reason for that is because its destroying the claimant. The climate is what is necessary to grow food. If you cant grow food, therell be starvation and social collapse. Now, the problem is people in the elites and people in the bbc and people in the governmental sector cannot get their heads around whats actually happening. The fact of the matter is, if you go out and talk to ordinary people in the street, theyre aware of this. And thats why hundreds of thousands of people around the world are starting to take action because theyve lost faith. I understand your perspective on the climate is that the emergency is here, its now, and we have to respond. No, i dont think you have. See, thats the. I want to ask you about the degree to which see yourself as a revolutionary. Is that how you would characterise your ideology . Theres a revolution coming anyway. Its irrelevant. I know what youre trying to do. Youre trying to say theres these radical people. Everything is ok, and theyre trying to change stuff, and if they were not there being annoying, things could carry on. The fact of the matter is, if we dont change things, theyre going to be ten times worse. And those are the two options. Thats why im telling you about the analogy of the doctor. When you go and see a doctor, you dont blame the doctor. You dont accuse the doctor of being revolutionary, right . Because the doctor is simply telling you what the science says, and the science is were going to have social collapse, or were going to try and do do something about it. With respect, science is different from politics. Youre taking science and then youre putting a political interpretation of what it means, how its having an impact. There is no political interpretation here. Let me put to you some words by a former head of the metropolitan Police Counter terror command, who has studied your movement. He says, Extinction Rebellion is the breakdown of democracy and the state. He regards you as akin to a dangerous terrorist organisation. Well, youre telling me that youre going to take the public with you, when a former police chief is suggesting that you actually are anarchists who want to bring down the state and our democratic system. Do you think the publics ready for that . The public is now aware that the elites are taking them to their death, because thats what the science is saying. The people. You stood in the recent election. The people that are betraying this country and this nation are the people in the elites, like the guy youve just mentioned, because theyre refusing to accept the reality. And thats why therell be mass social disturbances over the next year or two. You stood in the european parliamentary election as an independent with this message. In london, more than 2 million voters. You managed to garner 924, and youre telling me the public is marching alongside you. The 67 of the public know there is a Climate Emergency. If you know theres a Climate Emergency, it means that were facing a situation more serious than weve ever had to deal with in the whole history. Politicians are now talking of climate emergencies. Making the leap from talking of a Climate Emergency to the mass civil disturbances, disruption, the bringing down of the state as we know it, thats something quite different. How far are you prepared to go . Weve seen lets say hundreds, sometimes maybe even 1,000 or 2,000 of your Extinction Rebellion colleagues and activists on the streets of london, gluing themselves to buildings, gluing themselves to roads, disrupting traffic, once even disrupting public transport, which to many seemed a bit odd. But how far are you prepared to take this mass civil disobedience . This 0ctober, thousands of people will come to the streets of london and they will stay in the streets of london. How long, i dont know, because it will be up to them. But you will see mass disturbances. It will be non violent, it will be respectful, and it will be disruptive, and that is the methodology were using. Thats the method were using. You say carefully, you say non violent. In previous comments you have set of your protests, demonstrations, civil disobedience that, quote, some people may die. I wonder what you meant by that. Because, in civil disobedience struggles over the last 150 years, when you challenge the elites, as gandhi says, you know, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you and then they fight you. When they fight you, they tend to kill people, thats historically what happens and im just stating that as a fact, a sociological fact. When Martin Luther king used to do civil rights campaigns in 1960s, people got killed, and thats part of the process of political change. Youre carefully manipulating this, arent you . You said, people will see in the evening news 10 year olds and grannies getting dragged off by the police. I believe youve made a particular point in Extinction Rebellion of teaching civil disobedience methods to young people, including schoolchildren. You want them on the front lines. Why do you think schoolchildren and grannies are getting involved in putting themselves in harms way to get arrested. Why do you think thats happening . Im asking you why youre encouraging them to put themselves in harms way. Im not encouraging anyone, 0k . What im involved in doing. You are actually encouraging them, encouraging children to. If grannies turn up to a meeting and theyre in tears about whats happening to their grandchildren, its not what im doing that makes them sit down in the road. Its the same with teenagers. Teenagers are shitting themselves about whats happening for the future. Theyve got another 50, 60, 70 years to live on this planet and by that time there could be rain only1 billion people left. That six billion people who have died in starvation or been slaughtered in war. The scale of that is beyond the imagination, isnt it . This is the biggest problem, the elites and the bbc and the conventional media has simply not grasped the enormity of whats happening. Well, never mind the elites, it seems that many people even who were involved in the early days of Extinction Rebellion, like yourself, think you are going far too far. You havent heard what ive said, and this is the fundamental problem. Im listening very carefully. No, i dont think you are, youre listening but not emotionally connecting, and this is the problem. Ive spent a year doing interviews like this with journalists, and journalists are not emotionally connecting with whats happening. Im talking about the slaughter, death and starvation of six billion people this century. Thats what the science predicts, thats the trajectory were on, and that requires absolutely Desperate Measures to stop it. And its going to be painful. Believe me, im engaging in the sense that im a citizen just as you are. Im going to bejust as much prey to everything thats happening to our planet as you are. I have children. Certainly, yeah. I dont know what age you are, but youre not going to be on this planet for much longer, neither am i. If youre a teenager, you can see this happening over the next 50, 60 years. Im engaging with you, but im not sure youre engaging with me. Why do you think so many people, even inside Extinction Rebellion, think that youve gone too far when you recently said you wanted to put drones up around heathrow to ensure that Heathrow Airport was closed down. There were people inside your own organisation who said, hang on a minute, that is not what we are about. You have to consider strategy in a way that youre not doing. The fact of the matter is, with the Aviation Industry and the whole carbon economy, all this activity is bringing us to destruction. Theres people in Extinction Rebellion and other networks who, as an act of conscience, are going to be taking action against that. Thats the same as it happened in the. Ill give you a quote from somebody, i dont know if you know him personally, but simon mckibbin, a lecturer at cambridge university, joined Extinction Rebellion and now left, specifically because he was horrified and upset by your plan to shut down heathrow with drones. He said, threatening to fly drones into a busy airspace is a departure from the ethics of nonviolence. It threatens people and puts people at risk. He said, i believe if this is permitted to go ahead well lose the goodwill of the public. Why do you persist with this . Because were facing mass starvation, and because people generally in society, particularly people in the elites, are not capable and are not empathising with that reality. Will you put those drones up . Myself . Well, would you . Those in your movement and people that believe, like you, that its justifiable. This is whats coming down the road. If the elites dont respond to non violent action, then you know whats going to come next. People other than Extinction Rebellion will use violence, thats whats coming down the road. Im speaking as a sociologist here, im not saying its good or bad, what im saying is if you put a society under a massive amount of stress, and if you propose. Will you. Leave me a minute, let mejust finish this. If you tell the citizens of countries that the government is facilitating their death, than you can expect one thing, particularly in a country like britain, where people dont put up with such nonsense, you can expect rebellion. Will you, just answer the question, try to close down Heathrow Airport with drones . It hasnt been decided. I dont want to talk about specific things because thats not up to me, thats up to the people that are engaged in it. What i can say is this is whats coming down the line. Doesnt it strike you that if you are serious about trying to lobby, pressure, change policy where it matters most, youd be working in washington, dc, beijing, maybe moscow, may be riyadh, saudi arabia. Its very easy in democracies like britain to get people out on the streets, to glue yourselves to railings. It is ultimately a democracy, but in many parts of the world that matter most in this particular debate, there is no possibility of Extinction Rebellion. Most of the civil disobedience campaigns over the last hundreds of years have happened in poor authoritarian countries. The fact of the matter is, when people have had enough, theyll undertake sacrifice in order to bring change. Thats the most effective way, according to the scholarship, of bringing about rapid change in a society mass participation civil disobedience. When it comes to this mass participation, youve said thousands on the streets, do you really believe that with the methodology youve talked about in this interview, the mindset you bring to this, you are going to win the hearts and minds of the public . Notjust in this country but publics around the world. I think its inevitable. I think its inevitable, yes. The major question now is have we left it too late . Im mindful of international examples. Australia had a recent election and the centre left went into the election promising major cuts in Greenhouse Gas emissions over the next few years. The centre right went into that election saying, n0, were not because it will damage jobs, it will damage industry, and were actually going to open up new coalfields across queensland, one of the biggest states in australia. The centre right won. Yes. So whats happening is the level of rage in countries is increasing exponentially, and it hasnt reached that Critical Mass in many countries yet but its going to hit that Critical Mass very quickly and it will shock the elites, it will shock the government with its intensity. Because a Critical Mass of people are starting to realise whats going on, which is the elites and the governments arent actually going to do anything. Theyre not going to fulfil their primary responsibility, which is to look after the people. It will happen quickly, it will happen quickly. This isnt something that holds up gradually. Historically. Nothings happening and then something happens, bang, and all the media think, where did that come from . What im here to tell you today is this is coming, this is coming down the track. I hear your message and you accuse me of not emotionally engaging with you, and during the course of the conversation ive been thinking to myself that your message is so unrelentingly bleak and negative. Its not a message, right . When you go to a doctor and he tells you youve got cancer, thats not a message, its the science. Its the science. But we began by agreeing theres various people across the environmental, green, Climate Change movements that agree about the science but come to different conclusions about the best means of delivering change. There are many scientists who actually wont just focus on the negative, the bleak and the dark, but say, you know what, we human beings are making some progress, we are cutting emissions. For example, in the energy sector. Ive just told you, its total nonsense. Its total nonsense you show no room for positivity and hope, no hope. When you go to the doctor the doctor has a responsibility to tell you whether youve got cancer or not and whether its terminal or not, hope doesnt come into it. Its a matter of scientific analysis. He shows you an x ray of your lungs or whatever, right, its a scientific reality. The arctic is melting, it is ice, it is warm, it is melting, it is gone. Whether youre fearful about it, hopeful about it or you have a political problem with it, it is gone, it is going, thats the way the world is. Its a harsh thing, science doesnt have a sentimental thing about it. Its not a political thing, its not a give or take thing. Roger hallam, well have to leave it there thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Thanks. Hello there and last time on weather for the week ahead we talked about how things could be settling down next week but that may not be the case flow next week but that may not be the case now and i have my details on that in a moment but lets look at the jet stream, last coming fast blowing air which drives our weather and at this time of the year we expected to be north of the uk but it is coming straight at us which has allowed this unseasonably deep area of low pressure to find which brought us wet and windy conditions here friday and will dominate the scene through the weekend. There will be more sunshine around for wales and england to the weekend but he remains blustery for all of us and there are further showers particularly for Northern Ireland and scotland and at times some of the showers may merge together to form longer spells of rain. It could be happy and foundry and reigns will strengthen as well. Particularly where we can see 55 mph gust later in the day. Dry and sunny spells to be had throughout the day but still a chance of a shower and then sunshine and temperatures will fare better and then on friday 22 celsius the maximum but it will cloud over three southern counties on saturday evening and we have a weekly weather fund that is pushing up. The exact track of this, there is a bit of uncertainty that he could bring rain as far north as east anglia before it starts to work its way down towards the south and east clearing during the early hours of the morning. For sunday across england and wales it is largely dry and a chance of a few showers and showers tending to be through the northern half of the uk through Northern Ireland and scotland, closer to our area of low pressure. Temperatures need teams at best and 21 celsius down towards the south and east. Into next week here is the area of low pressure drifting up towards the north and east and still influencing the weather but High Pressure sitting down towards the south and west. Through monday we will really for england and wales a similar set up for england and wales a similar set up to sunday. A lot of dry weather around and a chance of a few showers but showers more frequent the Northern Ireland and for scotland. Lighter wins so where we did get to see some sunshine, it should feel a little more pleasant with highs of 21 celsius. Into monday night, and he say, our area of High Pressure just starts to edge a little closer and the isoba rs just starts to edge a little closer and the isobars begin to open up which means the winds drop out. Three tuesday, a bit of a quieter day on the cards and it will not be playing sailing, wall to wall blue skies but further showers particularly for wales and northern scotla nd particularly for wales and northern scotland that a good deal of dry weather elsewhere with the deals of sunshine and lighter winds a different feel to the day. Temperature is 14 21dc. Back to the jet stream, the south of the we might uk and that we can cite doug slightly. At the moment the one that looks most likely is below pressure to have the greater influence in our weather is so if that happens it will be cooler, breezy air and at times wet. Spells of rain, while our area of High Pressure sits down towards the south and west. There is a chance that High Pressure could start to build from the southwest helping to settle things down and in the southern half of the uk at least where it should be drier and warmer. Quite a lot to pray for the coming few days and stating to the forecast. Tonight at ten, tributes to the Police Officer killed while investigating a burglary in berkshire. Pc Andrew Harper was 28 and married just four weeks ago. Its thought he was dragged along by a vehicle late last night. The murder of pc Andrew Harper is a mindless and a brutal crime, and obviously all our thoughts are with his family, his friends and his colleagues. In a sweeping investigation, police make inquiries at a local caravan site. Well have the very latest. Also tonight. Plans for British Steel to be bought by the Turkish Military pension fund. The Scottish Government nationalises the Ferguson Shipyard on the clyde,