Now on bbc news, Hardtalks Stephen Sackur talks shah faesal, president of the Jammu And Kashmir peoples movement. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. When the Indian Government revoked the special autonomous status of jammu and revoked the special autonomous status ofJammu And Kashmir, it knew outrage would follow, which is why delhi has the muslim majority himalayan territory in a form of lockdown. Troops patrol the streets, hundreds of local politicians and activists have been detained, and communication links have been cut. My communication links have been cut. My guest today is shah faesal, leader of the Jammu And Kashmir peoples movement. How will kashmiris channel their anger, and how much support will they get . Shah faesal in delhi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. There use it in indias capital, but im sure your thoughts are with the people of kashmir. What are the latest reports you are hearing of what is happening in your home territory in terms of the curfew and the lockdown . Because indian Authorities Say they have begun to gradually ease it. It is the eighth day of curfew, and the news that i am getting from kashmir is that it continues to be the same around 8 Million People continue to be under incarceration, roads are deserted, mosques are closed. It is very hard to move around, the Communication System is completely down. Telephone lines are not working, mobile phones. People living outside kashmir have been unable to talk to theirfamilies for the kashmir have been unable to talk to their families for the past eight days. There is a shortage of food materials, people are unable to figure out what is happening. There has been an absolute clampdown on the protests, and the president of Security Forces has been unprecedented the presence of Security Forces has been unprecedented. People are unable to reach out to their political leaders. All political leaders, the surprising side of this crackdown has been that all of them are under arrest at this time. It is a scene out of a partition novel. Say all local politicians in kashmir are under arrest orfacing local politicians in kashmir are under arrest or facing intimidation, and yet you are speaking to me from delhi, and i happen to know that in the last week you have been able to go to srinagar and attend political meetings. It suggests to me that perhaps you are exaggerating the extent of the control from india just a little bit. Most of the political leaders who belong to my political leaders who belong to my political party, and all other political party, and all other Political Parties, have been detained. Iam Political Parties, have been detained. I am the only person from the old Party Meeting which met in srinagar on august the fourth, who is free and freely speaking. I am ashamed of myself that i am free at ashamed of myself that i am free at a time where the entire administration of kashmir are in jailand administration of kashmir are in jail and have been imprisoned. Do you think in all honesty when this interview was done and perhaps over the next few days that you will try to go back kashmir, do you think you will be free for long . Police have come to my home a couple of times after i left, and it is also a story in itself that we reach the airport and came to delhi. Because of communication breakdown people could not communicate to their higher ups about my escape from the airport. I am very much apprehensive that soon after i leave from here i will be detained like anyone else. You are the leader of the Jammu And Kashmir peoples movement. Obviously one of quite a number of different Political Parties in kashmir. What is your message to your own Party Supporters and to the wider public . Do you want to see people take to the streets and try to resist what you have called indias occupation . If you look at what has happened on the fifth of august is that the entire political mainstream, people like me who believe in electoral politics and who saw some sort of resolution coming within the framework of the indian constitution, we people have been rendered without an argument. Most of the leaders, including two former chief ministers are under arrest at this time. When you talk about the mobilisation, it has been impossible for people to mobilise protests in the past week, because of unprecedented security presence in kashmir. But i am aware that there are going to be spontaneous eruptions in kashmir the moment restrictions are relaxed a little bit and people like me and the entire leadership in kashmir, im not sure if anybodys call will be heeded all this and to. It seems you are calling for calm, because i saw this quote from you just the other day you said the government seems to be preparing for casualties numbering 8000 10,000. Sanity demands that we dont give anyone a chance for a massacre. My appeal is that we should all stay alive and then we shall fight back. So, right 110w then we shall fight back. So, right now you are telling people to stay home . I think this is a sign of the majority of the people. 200,000 Security Forces, who is going to raise a voice of dissent . Im sure there will be a more calibrated, more seasoned, long term organic sustainable response to what has been done by the state. This act of indignation that has been done to the people of kashmir, im sure this will not go on protested. This decision by the Indian Government to revoke article 370, two and the special autonomous status of kashmir, it can hardly have been a surprise to you. After all, mr modis bjp party has put it into their manifesto for many elections, and after their thumping win for the last election there was speculation that this time they have a mandate to do it. The surprises that india claims to be the greatest democracy in the world. In spite of Narendra Modi being there in the country, we believe there are institutions of democracy that will protect the constitution. The Biggest Surprise this time is the way it has been done. If you look at the constitutional history of the state, if you look at how article 370 has developed in the past 70 years, i think all thejurists in developed in the past 70 years, i think all the jurists in this country have been of one opinion that it country have been of one opinion thatitis country have been of one opinion that it is impossible to revoke these guarantees following the constitutional procedure. So today, what has been done is by resorting to co m plete what has been done is by resorting to complete illegality, by com pletely to complete illegality, by completely murdering the constitution in the house of people of this country, which is something that surprised us. Otherwise, we a lwa ys that surprised us. Otherwise, we always knew that bjp wanted to abolish these protections as part of the law, but the way that it was done brought to light how the constitution was murdered by these people. The men who are ruling this country, i think it is something that surprised everybody who had faith or belief that india is the greatest democracy in the world. What about my point about a democratic mandate . This Jammu And Kashmir reorganisation bill sailed through the indian parliament. In the lower house it won a majority of 37072. As ura the lower house it won a majority of 370 72. As ura confessed democrat, surely that represents a mandate. 370 72. As ura confessed democrat, surely that represents a mandatem does represent a mandate, but parliament is not there to demolish the principles of democracy, it must bea the principles of democracy, it must be a voice of majority. Who will then represent the minority populations . When you talk about diversity in india, it is tremendous. It is 1. 3 billion people being represented in that house. What has been done to Jammu And Kashmir today can be done to any other state tomorrow, so if parliament is up to demolish the federal structure of this country, thatis federal structure of this country, that is something which i believe the parliament doesnt have the mandate for, and even also we must ta ke mandate for, and even also we must take notice that the Supreme Court of india has laid down a a basic structure of the constitution. There are seven things the parliament can also not change. We believe these articles, article 370, the Supreme Court has laid it down. We believe they are part of that basic structure that the parliament cannot change. I suppose the logic of the opposition is that this will end up in the Supreme Court and i know there are various legal challenges to the re invocation decision that will head towards the Supreme Court, but lets face it, the court today hasissued but lets face it, the court today has issued a ruling saying it wont intervene in the decision of the cu rfew intervene in the decision of the curfew and the lockdown, saying that the government has every right to impose this policy and let things stabilise. It is not clear the court is going to be on your side. Stabilise. It is not clear the court is going to be on your sidem stabilise. It is not clear the court is going to be on your side. If the parliament represents the majoritarian sentiment, then courts should represent them, that is our understanding. As of now we are about to challenge these articles. Some Political Parties have already filed petitions. I know it is going to bea filed petitions. I know it is going to be a long battle. It wont be easy for the Supreme Court also to undo what the majoritarian government, the bullying government, has done in this country. I know it will be hard for Supreme Court justices to stand for the cause of truth. You make your passionate points about the constitution, but is there not a way of looking at this that is much more pragmatic and technocratic . You yourself i think pride yourself on being something of a technocrat. Mr modi makes the point that by imposing a form of direct rule lets face it, direct rule from delhi to Jammu And Kashmir he rule from delhi to Jammu And Kashmir he says there will be a lot more development. All citizens will be guaranteed their rights but he says there will be new investment in infrastructure, the people ofjabiru in kashmir will have more opportunities, morejobs, in kashmir will have more opportunities, more jobs, and in kashmir will have more opportunities, morejobs, and in the long run it will benefit the people. I think this is a completely mischievous attitude that has been built around abolishing article 370. If you look at india, which is now 28 states, Jammu And Kashmir has developmental indicators better than many other states. If you look at the levels of equality inJammu And Kashmir, at longevity, at the gdp per capita, if you look at the total fertility rates and other demographic indicators, it might surprise the people that Jammu And Kashmir has better indicators than all many such states that do not have such protections. Article 370 was responsible it was the protection, basically, for very successful la nd protection, basically, for very successful land reforms that took place in the state of jammu successful land reforms that took place in the state ofJammu And Kashmir, and such land reforms have not been done anywhere else in the country. If i may not been done anywhere else in the country. Ifi may also not been done anywhere else in the country. If i may also say, not been done anywhere else in the country. Ifi may also say, sorry not been done anywhere else in the country. If i may also say, sorry to interrupt, but article 370 also in a sense ring fenced some deeply sexist policies and constitutional realities in jammu and policies and constitutional realities inJammu And Kashmir, and as mrmodi has realities inJammu And Kashmir, and as mr modi has said he hopes that people will see that for example the kashmir permanent residence law, which jammu and Kashmir State had imposed, bars female residents from Property Rights in the event that they marry a person from outside the state. Mr modi makes the point that thatis state. Mr modi makes the point that that is not right, and by imposing direct rule. That has been an evolving law, and there has been a conscious, constant debate that we need to give those protections and rights to women, and the high court ofJammu And Kashmir has settled that matter. Those protections and rights have been extended to women who marry nonstate subjects from Jammu And Kashmir. I can guarantee that we have been telling the government of india to leave it to the government of jammu government of india to leave it to the government ofJammu And Kashmir, to the state assembly. The state assembly will correct all of those anomalies if they are there. I can tell you with confidence that all of these excuses are being now raised, because changing the demographics of the state, attacking the constitutional protections, which we re constitutional protections, which were always pa rt constitutional protections, which were always part of the bjps idea, which is that we only want one president , one Prime Minister, one constitution in the country. That is an idea of monochromatic lack of diversity of the bjp, where it doesnt respect minorities or multiple cultures. It mainly has extreme contempt for anything that is related to muslims. I think that is related to muslims. I think that is something that was being used. My question then is where do you go from here . As i say, you had a reputation that when you formed your party of being a pragmatist, a technocrat, you had worked as a Senior Member of the Indian Civil Service. You argued against separatism and in creating a space for dialogue. That space seems to have disappeared. That space has disappeared not for us that space has disappeared not for us but for everybody else. And people like me who wanted to find some meaning in electoral politics, who believed some sort of resolution to this dispute is Still Available within the framing of the constitution. I think all those people have been slapped on the fifth of august. And people like me 110w fifth of august. And people like me now understand theres only two ways to do politics in kashmir. You will either have to be a studio or you will have to be a separatist. Everybody who now wants to champion the larger Political Rights of kashmiri people, im sure the trajectory and the path for them has changed, and the methodology has changed. Now i think if people have been asking for the right to self determination, that framework is the only framework people will be ready to listen to. They will not be ready to listen to. They will not be ready to listen to. They will not be ready to listen to anything within the framework of the constitution. So which is it for you, mr faesal, are you going to be stooge or separatist . I think its too early for all of us. Im separatist . I think its too early forall of us. Im not separatist . I think its too early for all of us. Im not going to be a stooge. I think one clarity that this has brought to all of us is those people who believed india would not betray this generation of kashmiris. Would not betray this generation of kashmiris. You know, my grandfathers generation in 1953, the Prime Minister of jammu grandfathers generation in 1953, the Prime Minister ofJammu And Kashmir was handcuffed by a very small level police constable. My grandfathers generation got alienated and they got betrayed. And my fathers generation in 1987 when elections were held in the jammu and Kashmir State and elections were rigged, my fathers generation got betrayed that time. We saw an eruption of militancy in kashmir in 1988. This new insult, this new phase of indignation began on the fifth of august, 2019, and its my generation that has now got the taste of trail. I dont know how this is going to play out in the next 50 70 years. Its going to be a new phase. Yeah. You said something very interesting earlier, you said you felt something of a sense of shame that you were not arrested, youre still free when so many of your fellow kashmiris, certainly in politics, have been detained. Do you also feel that for so many years you were an insider inside the Indian Civil Service arguing it was less important to pursue a path of separatism and more important to concentrate on things like supplying clean water, infrastructure, development. Do you think you got it wrong . Do you think ultimately youre part of the problem . I have to confess today before the world that we were trying to sell a wrong product to people of kashmir, and we have been snubbed on the fifth of august, 2019, when this unilateral assault on the constitutional identity of the state was done without taking any of the stakeholders on board by resorting to co m plete stakeholders on board by resorting to complete military might and suppressing the voices of the people in kashmir. And, you know, modi just got his way through. Just bulldozed his way in kashmir without caring for what kashmiris would think about this. Whats it going to be now, mr faesal . If youre going to be prepared to be, in your own word, a stooge, moderation appears to be impossible in the kashmir of today, are you going to back the militants . Weve already seen key militants . Weve already seen key militant players who have strong links in pakistan. Im thinking of abdelaziz, a guy who was a prayer leader in the red mosque in islamabad, he is saying jihad is obligatory for muslims in pakistan because our kashmiri brothers and sisters are waiting for our help. Is that the sort of language you can now identify with . The way voices of political moderation have been silenced in kashmir, i extremely worried it will give credence to the extremist elements and extreme ideologies are going to flourish in our part of the world. But when it comes to myself, i believe that a sustained nonviolent political Mass Movement will have to be lodged in kashmir. It may take a lot of time, but my belief in nonviolence stems from the fa ct m ost belief in nonviolence stems from the fa ct most of belief in nonviolence stems from the fact most of the political movements in the rest of the world have succeeded as long as theyve been nonviolent, and i believe that we are going to fight for the rights of the people. Its going to take time, but kashmiris have now found clarity in their politics, and i think were going to make it one day. Just to be clear with me, would you today, despite everything weve discussed of your history, describe yourself asa of your history, describe yourself as a kashmiri separatist . I think as a kashmiri separatist . Ithinki as a kashmiri separatist . I think i would not like myself to be boxed in these terminologies, because finally it has been the government of india, or the indian narrative of kashmir, that these are mainstream people and these are separatist people. If you talk about legitimacy is, who are the people who have the peoples legitimacy . Even until now separatists are those people who do not want to be boxed within the frame of the indian constitution. They have the larger number of people with them. They are the political mainstream and People Like Us were not the political mainstream. This entire vocabulary of politics has not changed in kashmir. There will be a vocabulary like revolutionists and those who wa nt to like revolutionists and those who want to be. I would want to be identified with the revolutionists. People who want to say del max piece. Thats abstract, if i people who want to say del max piece. Thats abstract, ifi may say, but personally, your own father was killed by separatist militants because he refused to help them and a particular point. You and your family have reasons to be suspicious of the separatist militant movement, but are you worried that kashmir world return to the bloodsoaked worried that kashmir world return to the bloodsoa ked area worried that kashmir world return to the bloodsoaked area of the 19805 and 1990s, the bloodsoaked area of the 19805 and 19905, where we saw so much violence in kashmir . More than 100,000 people have died in kashmir in the last 30 years. Thousands got this place, including minorities. My worry is that if kashmir 5lip5 back into the early 905, we will see another phase of budget. Three generations have already got destroyed. I dont want to see more generations get destroyed. I hope like the japanese, kashmiri5 will also go back to their resiliency, stand up, rebuild their houses, their ideas, rebuild their hearts and minds and rebuild whatevers been lost. This has been more like a Nuclear Catastrophe for all of us. Sorry, but we dont have much time, let me end with thoughts about the international arena. The Prime Minister of pakistan in monaghan has compared what the indians have done to nazism imran khan. Weve heard le55 to nazism imran khan. Weve heard less from the International Community, the us, the uk, other countries have been remarkably silent about what india has done. Are you therefore reliant on help from pakistan or do you believe youll get support from the world . |j am youll get support from the world . am extremely disappointed with the Way International community has responded to this issue. People have to understand that kashmir i5. Responded to this issue. People have to understand that kashmir is. You know, it is three Nuclear Powers claiming right to this territory. Its a nuclear fla5hpoint. Claiming right to this territory. Its a nuclearflashpoint. Its claiming right to this territory. Its a nuclear fla5hpoint. Its a powderkeg. This cannot be left unattended. Any sort of aggression by any of these three states can lead to a nuclear war in this region. Wejust hope lead to a nuclear war in this region. We just hope the entire International Community will rise up to the occasion and take notice of the Human Rights Violations that are happening in kashmir due to this unprecedented curfew thats been placed, and the unconstitutional act thats been done in the parliament of india in recent times. On the specific point of pakistan, india consistently accu5e5 of the pakistani government of interfering, meddling and sponsoring terrorism in kashmir. Do you believe that the climate is now right for pakistan to actually play more of a role in5ide ka5hmir . Will there be kashmiri5 looking for pakistani help . I think pakistan has behaved like an International Ngo about this entire i55ue, wringing its hands and showing tremendous amounts of helplessness when it comes to this i55ue. Helplessness when it comes to this issue. We are always hoping that india and pakistan can sit together and resolve this issue. India and pakistan have 70 years to figure this out among themselves, and now theyve not i think its the job of theyve not i think its the job of the International Community to come in and help these two belligerent neighbours to make peace with each other, and, at the same time, recognise that the primary stakeholders of the dispute are the people of kashmir and the voices of kashmir need to be heard. Its always been that the narratives of kashmir are mixed with the narratives about pakistan and india. I think its about time people recognise kashmiri5 deserve to have agency over theirfuture recognise kashmiri5 deserve to have agency over their future and the voices of kashmiri5 need to be heard. Shah faesal, we have to end there but i thank you very much indeed for joining me from delhi. Thank you very much. Pretty cloudy day ahead of us on wednesday. Rain on and off pretty much anywhere in the uk. There might even be one or two rumble5 of thunder across the midlands, east anglia, lincolnshire as well. By thursday, the weather will improve. This is what it looks like right now. This is the weather system, this is all the cloud thats basically been heading our way through the course of the night. Clearer skies for a time in the east, but i think from the morning onwards its looking pretty damp if not wet across the south west of england, wale5, just about lancashire, the lake district. Northern ireland getting a few spots but its not cold, its quite mild in fact. These are south westerly wind5 bringing some humid air, so temperatures in plymouth in the morning about 1k, matching that in cardiff, but in western and eastern scotland in rural spots temperatures could be two or three degrees above freezing. But quickly it will cloud over. Look at all that cloud in the uk acro55 wednesday. On and off rain. Its not one solid area of rain sweeping across the country, its sort of like bits of rain so it will come and go, hit and miss through the day. Later in the day, it looks as though some Western Areas could brighten up because the weather front will pull away towards the east. Then come thursday we are in between weather systems, one in the atlantic ready for the weekend but on thursday before it arrives, the weather is looking absolutely fine. After a cloudy, damp wednesday, thursday, more 5un5hine on the way. Temperatures up to 23 with the sun around and even nudging up to 20 just about acro55 Northern England i think. No, no more than 15. Heres the low pressure swinging in off the atlantic on friday. Lots of isobar5, so the winds will be pretty strong, gusting to around 40mph around the5e western and coa5t5. The rain probably wont reach the east of the country until a lot later in the day, so that means places like brighton, london, norwich, hull, will get away with a decent first half to friday. The rain might not reach london until friday night, for example, but for wales and the south west, looking pretty wet on friday and the temperatures only around 17 19 at least for most of us. Friday night, that low pressure continues to make its journey to the east and come saturday and sunday, turning blu5tery in the uk with gusts of wind in some areas could be approaching 50mph. Another very windy weekend potentially on the way. Bye bye. Im rico hizon in singapore, the headlines violence breaks out at hong kongs airport with clashes between riot police and protesters. More ominou5 warnings from china, as chinese troops manoeuvre near the hong kong border. Im ben bland in london. 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