Now on bbc news hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. For Many Americans, Donald Trumps incendiary tweets aimed at immigrants and citizens of colour show him to be a racist and White Nationalist. But maybe we exaggerate the importance of Donald Trumps contribution to americas problem with race. The roots of racism run deep, and an honest assessment of their strength has barely begun. So says my guest, ibram kendi, prize winning writer on race and founder of the Antiracist Research center in washington, dc. Can the us ever fix a problem so intimately bound up with its past . Ibram kendi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me on the show. I think we have to start with donald trump, and the role he is playing today in the United States in seemingly inflaming race tensions across the country with his ibram kendi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me on the show. I think we have to start with donald trump, and the role he is playing today in the United States in seemingly inflaming race tensions across the country with his tweets aimed at immigrants, aimed at some of his political critics, women of colour. Should we see him as something very different, an outlier, an aberration . Or do you think that actually, donald trump is part of something systemic . I think hes something systemic. I think that donald trump, when you look at his rhetoric, when you look at his campaign, youre looking at someone whos saying that latinx immigrants are the problem. And Many Americans have been believing for decades, supposedly, that latinx immigration is a problem. Youre talking about somebody in trump whos saying that we should be fearing muslims because theyre terrorising us. Youre talking about, you know, a candidate, a president , whos saying that black communities are infested with danger, theyre so dangerous, and people are living in hell. These ideas are widespread and they were widespread before his emergence. Trump of course just seeped into that well and formulated a political project around those ideas. Is there a part of you, because your expertise and your academic devotion is to studying antiracism and the degrees to which you can improve Race Relations in the United States. Is part of you thinking to yourself, maybe theres something positive about the Trump Presidency . Because hes lifting a veil, being more honest about feelings which are deeply entrenched in some parts of the nation. I think that certainly, as someone who studies racism, as somebody whos encouraging americans to be antiracist, Many Americans have now not. Are not able to really deny how powerful and how pervasive racism still lives in america. So theyre opening up, therefore, to more serious conversations about the history and presence of racism. Theyre becoming more serious about the need to be antiracist. Some of them are recognising that they dont want to be like trump and identify as not racist, in the way White Nationalists and trump do, and they see the world of antiracism, so thats a good thing. You raise a lot of things there. Well get to watch nationalism as a phenomenon a bit later. It seems to me you want americans to take sides. It seems to me you are suggesting they have a duty to take sides and become very engaged in all of this. You say there is no in between safe space of defining yourself as not racist. Youre either racist, you say, or youre antiracist. Not racism, as a phenomenon, a neutrality maybe, thats simply a mask to hide racism. It is. And when we. Most americans strive to be, to identify themselves as not racist, but what i think most americans. See, i would naturally say, if somebody discussed it with me, or accused me of it, i would say, im not racist. Yes. And i guess, what we dont realise, though, is so too with segregationists, so too would slaveholders, so too would slave traders, so too do White Nationalists self identify as not racist. When we ask them, well, what does it mean to be not racist . They cant really answer that question. Because not racist really has no meaning. Its essentially saying, no, no, no matter what i say or what i do, i am not racist. And so its a term that doesnt have any meaning. See, i instinctively think it does have meaning. It means i dont have instinctive or inbuilt prejudice, as far as im aware. In the sense that i know myself, i can say, i dont have racist feelings. And you are delegitimising that as a feeling i can have. So then my response would then be what feelings do you have . In other words, an antiracist believes that the racial groups are equals. A racist believes that certain racial groups are better and worse than others. And so oftentimes people are in denial about the ways in which they may actually think that certain racial groups are better or worse than others. Is it unconscious to a certain extent . The racism that may be in me . I think in many ways, we arent conscious. The way, for instance, i would ask a person to figure out whether they are ideas they are unconscious about, i would ask them, why does this Racial Disparity exist . To give an example, in the United States, black people are twice as likely to be unemployed. So i would ask an american, why is that the case . And some americans dont consciously realise that they believe that this disparity exists because there is something wrong with black workers. Or they dont realise that that idea is a racist idea. And so they say theyre not racist, even though they have these racist ideas. But let me flip it around. If you tell me just defining yourself as not racist has no real meaning, what is the real meaning, then, of being antiracist . Sure. So, to me, the meaning of being antiracist, first and foremost, is recognising the way in which we have been trained, we have been nurtured in many ways, to look out at our racially Unequal Society and think the cause of that is something wrong with people of colour. It causes us to identify, confess, admit, the way in which weve been trained to see racial hierarchy. And then it causes us to say, you know what, im going to be different. Im going to see the racial groups as equals. Im going to challenge racist policies. Im going to be very active in eliminating Racial Disparity in my nation. And you have to be active. You have to be active. Can you imagine if you do nothing in the face of Racial Disparities . Whats going to happen . Theyre going to remain. So doing nothing is literally allowing Racial Disparities to persist. Is there something in your own background that brought you to this understanding of racism . Essentially, i want you to tell me what, growing up as a kid in new york, drew you to these ideas. Well, i mean, how to be an antiracist is largely a confessional. Its a confessional of myjourney, myjourney being raised to believe that there was something wrong with black people. You mean you were raised to be a racist . I was raised to be a racist. And i think its common in america to be raised to believe theres something wrong with a particular racial group. And yet in your book, how to be an antiracist, you emphasise that your parents were very active and caring parents, they wanted the best for you, they also were very conscious of politics, of the liberation struggle, all sorts of stuff. You would think that would be an environment where you would be encouraged and raised to absolutely not be racist. And i think it really shows the complexities, right . Its notjust good people. I should say bad people. Its notjust people who are White Nationalists who think theres something wrong with a particular racial group. And in the 80s and 90s, there were dominant ideas even among people who were liberal, even among people who had come out of the civil rights movement, the reason why so many black people were so poor, the reason why so many black people were being mass incarcerated, was because of their behaviour or a cultural deficiency, that black people needed to take personal responsibility. And these were the ideas that were dominant in the 90s, so much so that i consumed them wholesale. So youre sort of blaming your parents for your racism as a youth. I just wonder how your parents feel about that, given that theyre Classical Liberal civil rights oriented black parents . So my parents, i think, like me, weve, i guess, commonly moved away from these ideas, as i think Many Americans have in general. I think Many Americans, for instance, look back at the 1994 crime bill and see that as a problem. So in many ways Many Americans have moved to be more antiracist. And so i think Many Americans are recognising that those ideas they believed in the 1990s were indeed racist. You talk of shame, shame about some of the things you used to believe as a teenager. I think there was one famous. Well, i know there was, from the book, there was this famous moment where you were in an oratory competition at your school. You gave this incredibly impressive speech, in essence, sort of blaming black youth for some of their own problems, and now you say youre ashamed. Im completely ashamed. Its hard for me to even watch that speech. I have it on this little vhs tape. And because i was led to believe the problems of black youth, what black youth were struggling with, what was causing them to have problems, was not racist policies or racial profiling or them being mass incarcerated, was not them being four times more likely to be unemployed than they were two generations ago. It was because of their behavioural problems. So in this speech i gave, for this Martin Luther king oratorical contest in 2000, i was a senior in high school, i basically said that. I said that, you know, whats wrong with the black youth is they dont value education. Whats wrong with black youth is that theyre too often times getting pregnant. Whats wrong with black youth is that their parents arent raising them right. And any time we say that theres something wrong with a racial group, were expressing a racist idea. You clearly have been brave in the sense that youve said, look, black people can be racist just as easily as white people can, if im paraphrasing you correctly. Yeah. But what you seem to be doing is going through us history, because, you know, in the books youve written, you basically, in one of them, which you rather arrogantly declare a definitive history of racism in the United States, you catalogue racism and you include in the racist camp people like frederick douglass, for example. And even, at times, you suggest barack obama had very significant elements of racism in his political approach and thinking. So frankly, who isnt racist . Well, i think the book i think youre referencing, stamped from the beginning, which was a long history of racist ideas, what i did was very simple. I defined a racist idea, which was any idea that suggested a group is superior or inferior to another racial group in any way. Understand that book specifically chronicled racist ideas. Ideas suggesting there was something wrong with black people. And so over the course of history, youve had people who have either said theres something genetically wrong with black people, culturally wrong with black people as a group or behaviourally wrong with black people. And when i came to that definition, i then went in search of history. And i was not going to exclude someone because i appreciated them, like frederick douglass, who was one of my heroes, i wasnt going to exclude someone. If somebody said there was something wrong with black people, and if somebody said theres something wrong with people today, someone is expressing a racist idea. And to bring it more up to date, a giant of contemporary us politics, barack obama, whose presidency, whose two term presidency were all so familiar with, are you suggesting that there were ways in which obama was a racist in his approach to race issues, and his messages to black people in america . So i think one of his most brilliant speeches was the race speech he gave in philadelphia during his campaign in 2008. Known as the race speech. Yeah, the race speech. I think we should very critically and closely read that speech, yet again. It was a brilliant speech, and in many ways he spoke about the racial discrimination, or as i say, the racist policies that were prevailing in america. But at times he talked about this idea that there was something that black people were not doing. And to give an example, he would speak about black people in a way, being defeatist. In other words, because of these, sort of, generations of discrimination, some black people have stopped trying. And that was the reason why some of these disparities exist, and so im going to critique that. He also, at a time, spoke about theres some truths to white anxieties. These are the sort of ideas that suggested that part of the reason these disparities exist is because of what black people are not doing, or that theres some truth in white racist ideas. Do you not believe at all in this sort of, this notion of uplift . Of inspiration, of aspiration . That there are individuals like obama who can have enormous positive impact through the arc of a career like his . Oh, without question. And i think thats a different conversation. Obviously barack obama has inspired millions of people around the world in many ways, brought all sorts of great things to the world. But would it be wrong to say he has particularly inspired black americans . Oh, without question. Yeah. Hes inspired black americans and hes still beloved among black americans. And i think what im really trying to get at, you know, with my work is. We, i think, we too often want to exclude or include people, typically ourselves, from whether they are ever expressing racist ideas or whether theyre ever supporting policies that actually create more racial inequity. And i think what we need to do as humanity, talking about these racial issues, is define terms. Define what a racist idea is, and whoever says that idea, call it racist. Define what a racist is, and whoever acts that way, call them racist. Thats essentially what im seeking to do and it doesnt really matter who the person is, nor does it matter how much i admire them, if they Say Something that suggests theres something wrong with a racial group, not an individual, but a racial group, then that is a problem. How do you reach out to White America with your message about antiracism and the need to be proactively engaged with it . Well, i think first and foremost, i think many White Americans, one of the reasons why they resist acknowledging their racism is because they have been taught, like people worldwide, that racist is a term is a label, its a tattoo, its a fixed identity, it is a bad person. Its deeply pejorative, its an insult. Its an insult, but you know who also said it was an insult . Richard spencer. Richard spencer, who once. The White Nationalist . The White Nationalist once wrote that racist isnt a descriptive term, its a pejorative term. But i would argue with richard spencer, that no, racist is a descriptive term. It describes when a person is saying theres something wrong with a particular racial group. It describes when someone is doing nothing in the face of racial inequity. It describes when someone is supporting a policy thats creating more racial inequity. And whats interesting about that term, like antiracist, is one minute i can Say Something that is racist. I can say, you know what, this is whats wrong with black people, and then in the next minute i can say this is the ways that racial groups are equals. Im just wondering, with your sort of fascinating but nonetheless quite abstract theorising about some of this, whether you are failing to, sort of, reach out to the hearts and minds of ordinary folk. Because, in essence, what youre saying to many ordinary americans, and lets focus on White Americans right now, is that they are racist. Their instinctive reaction to that is going to be one of absolute indignation. We are not racist, theyll say. And if you say, but, hang on a minute, what are you doing to fight the presidency of donald trump, a man who, as we discussed at the beginning of this interview, has used all sorts of epithets and words about immigrants and people of colour that many regard as unacceptable. What are you doing to fight it . They might say, well, were going to vote against him. Is that enough . For me, no. What i would also say to White Americans is has racism benefited you more than in a more Egalitarian Society . I think one of the things i think weve been misled to believe is that i think people recognise, and its true, racism benefits white people in the United States more than people of colour. But the question is, if we had a truly Egalitarian Society where bigotry in no form dominated. Because in many ways racism informs other forms of bigotry. If people were not able to be manipulated into voting for a candidate due to their racist ideas and were instead able to vote for whatever candidate boost whatever policies benefited them, what would actually happen is the white middle classes and white working classes would have more than they do now. Theyd be more egalitarian or equalising in society. Thats fascinating, but ill then point to one specific measure that you regard as fundamentally important to antiracist agenda, and thats reparations. Your message is the United States of America Needs to make massive reparation compensation to descendants of the slaves who were enslaved for so long, suffered for so much and whose descendants are the black americans of today. It would cost upwards of 1 trillion for meaningful compensation to be delivered. Most americans regard that as both impractical but also probably unjust, because they personally are not responsible. Well, first, actually thats not how i would frame the reparations debate. How id sort of frame the reparations debate is currently we have a racial wealth gap in the United States. The white median wealth is about 10 times more than black median wealth. And that racial gap is actually growing such that by 2050, forecasters are estimating that black median wealth will redline at 0 and during that same period, white median wealth would have grown. So we have a growing racial wealth gap. And what i ask of my fellow americans is how do we reduce that racial wealth gap, which is both the result of past and present racist policies, without reparations . Thats the question that i ask. And i would be more than willing to think about any other sort of policy that can reduce the racial wealth gap if its not reparations. I just want to quote to you. This is such a live debate right now, theres a congressional testimony about reparations recently, one black commentator, i believe he is respected, coleman hughes, he said, i worry that our desire to fix the past compromises our ability to fix the present. There is a difference between acknowledging history and allowing history to distract us from the problems of today. We dont need an apology, we need better schools, better neighbourhoods, a better criminaljustice system. Do you accept the logic of his argument . What i would say is his argument is that when you think about wealth, wealth is the combination of the past and present, right . You have people who pass on wealth, people who invest and that wealth grows over time. And so you can, when you talk about a racial wealth gap, separate the past from the present. Past is the present, particularly as it relates to wealth. Which is why Something Like reparations, which both combines the past and the present is an effective strategy. Arent you setting up to fail . Because weve been here before. In the early 2000s, there was a movement to have reparations put on the agenda, it died and failed. Its almost certainly going to failagain, certainly in this current political climate. If you push reparations as the ultimate litmus test about whether america is serious about dismantling racism, youre setting up for failure in a very negative and bleak output. I wouldnt say its the ultimate litmus test, im saying it the litmus test to say if they are serious about eliminating the specific racial wealth gap, one of the serious Racial Disparities we have in our society. Now, there are other litmus tests for other issues, but this is just one of many. And in terms of the cost of reparations, you know, we cant forget. I cant forget, in the United States that we have through our federal or government budget, half of the federal government budget goes to the military. When you talk about the war on terror cost trillions of dollars, and Many Americans opposed it. The idea that there is no money to literally provide reparations, it could be shifting money from places and spaces that americans actually dont necessarily support. In nothing more than a few words, do you think america is travelling in the right direction in terms of addressing the race question . I think there are two cars one is travelling in the right direction, the antiracist car, and the racist car is travelling in the wrong direction. These two cars are racing each other. Isnt that going to be a profound and bumpy collision . Well, weve been bumping cars really from the founding of this country. Ibram kendi, we have to end there, but thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Youre welcome. Thank you. Hello. Well, our cool weather with showers is here to stay through the week. If anything, its going to turn even more unsettled as we head into friday and the weekend. But thats still a long way off. In the short term, actually, there is a lot of dry weather out there, a lot of clear weather across the uk. This is what it looks like through the early hours. So yes, we have some showers across the south, some across the lake district, lancashire, maybe western scotland, and our temperatures 9 degrees first thing in the morning in edinburgh, 12 degrees there in devon and cornwall. This is what it looks like first thing on tuesday, then. So we wake up to a lot of sunshine, a scattering of showers in the west of scotland, some across northern england, one or two affecting the south west of england as well. Now, the daytime will bring sunny spells and temperatures of around 21 degrees for london, i7 expected in belfast and in newcastle. Now, notice theres a bit of cloud and rain there in the south west, and that should reach cornwall and devon a little bit later on in the day. But, for most of us, the end of the day on tuesday is looking absolutely fine, a lovely sunset out there. Heres mid week, and low pressure dominating the weather across the atlantic. A succession of weather fronts and low pressures heading our way, one just to the south of greenland there. You know, theyre all heading our way. This is what it looks like on wednesday, so one weather front brings rain to wales and many parts of england, another one to Northern Ireland and western scotland, as well. That bit in between there, perhaps the north east of england and the borders, getting away with it, but probably later in the day that rain will arrive. Suffice to say most of us will catch at least a bit of rain on wednesday. Now, thursday, the weather does improve a little bit. Youll notice that our weather icons are showing dry weather here, partly cloudy skies. And then on friday, the weather goes downhill again. Another low pressure comes off the atlantic, and this one is a big area of low pressure. That will be barrelling through, notjust during the course of friday, but the weekend as well. So for many of us, an increasing wind, outbreaks of rain, particularly across Western Areas on friday, temperatures still around about 18 20 degrees. This is relatively humid air coming in out of the south. And then that low pressure is still with us through the weekend. You can see how big it is, stretching from the central north atlantic, in fact, all the way to scandinavia, and further weather fronts will swing around it and bring us some wet weather. Bye bye. This is the briefing. Im sally bundock. Our top stories as hong kongs airport reopens, the regions leader warns violence is pushing them down a path of no return. The chief executives responsibilities is to ensure that hong kong remains a safe and orderly and law abiding city. The Trump Administration continues to clamp down on immigration, this time targeting people who need government aid. A norwegian man appears in court in oslo, accused of terrorism in connection with a gun attack on a mosque. 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