Until elections can be held. At ten oclock tina dahele will be here with a full round up of the days news. Now Stephen Sackur interviews former british Prime Minister sir john major on hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Within weeks, the conservative party will have a new leader and britain a new Prime Minister. As with so much in uk politics, that battle between Boris Johnson and jeremy hunt boils down into brexit. Who the tories believe it is better equipped to navigate the political and constitutional crisis that lives as at the departure date of october 31 draws near. My guest is former Prime Minister is sirjohn major, what kind of conservative and what kind of country will emerge from brexit mess . Welcome. The conservative Party Leadership is in its final lap. You have been watching it very closely. What is it telling you about the state of your party . I have been a member of the conservative party since my 16th birthday. Its been a very large part of my life. I have a great deal to it and i hope i have given quite a lot to it. I do not think i have ever seen a party so divided or in such difficulty as it is at the moment. And we need as we look forward, first to look at what is right for the country. Let me make that point absolutely clear, that country is infinitely more important than the party. And if asked to choose between the two, i would unhesitatingly choose the interest of the country. But, we do need a Prime Minister who can bring the country to gather. We need a Prime Minister who can negotiate with europe. We need a Prime Minister we can trust and whos word we can trust. And, we need a serious man for serious times. The justice secretary, of this current conservative government, said this, a short time ago, talking about the political atmosphere. He said that a willingness by politicians to say what they think the public wants to see air, and there is right now a willingness from the public to believe that what they are told by populist politicians. Do you think those words apply to this rac . I think if they were intended to apply to this race i should imagine. And i think in many ways that they did. We need people to understand whats at sta ke. With brexit. And thus far, from the very outset of the campaign, there has been a great deal of misunderstanding and frankly a great deal of misinformation peddled to people about what brexit is going to mean. Now, nobody should be any doubt, and deposition, i have not changed it. I voted to remain in the European Union, and it is an imperfect organisation. It needs reform, its very frustrating, its a bit out of date and there is a lot wrong with it. All that is true. But, to leave the biggest and richest free trade market in the world on the grounds that youre going to go global is absurd. And the damage done to us both in the short and long term, people might think we are ok, we finished our working lives and perhaps comfortable in many cases, but our children and grandchildren arent. And we are now making a choice at the moment and leaving the eu that i think is the worst Foreign Policy and leaving the eu that i think is the worst Foreign Policy choice that britain has made within my lifetime and for a long time before, and i think people need to understand that. We will get to the big picture, what brexit means for britain and its place in the wild, but you as a conservative face a choice right now, in fact, you may have received your ballot paper already. Many tories have already received and voted. Have you voted . I have not received any ballot papers yet. Who will you vote for . Well, a ballot is private, but ithink its fairly evident from my view that i cannot vote for someone who was parked at the Brexit Campaign that misled the country. So i shall offer my vote to jeremy hunt. I dont think anyone would be in any doubt about that. And i hope everybody before casting their vote will wait a little while. We need to see the two candidates properly examined by media, and both appearing before the media answering difficult questions and explaining what they will do, explaining how they will do it. Borisjohnson has refused to engage in a head to head debate with jeremy hunt thats fire and the only one who agreed is going to be actually after many conservatives vote. Well, in that case, the wise conservative will wait until after mrjohnson has appeared before making up their mind on who they will vote for. Does character matter in this race between Boris Johnson and jeremy does character matter in this race between Boris Johnson and jeremy hunt . I think character matters in politics, never mind just in the race for Prime Minister. Of course, Prime Minister character matter and everyone will make their own particular judgment about that. Its very important. The choices you make particularly as Prime Minister are crucial. A proper leader will make a choice thats right for the country, even if its wrong for himself and his party. The wrong leader will make a choice for his party or himself, rather than for his country and people have to make a judgment about everybody and politics about where priorities lie. Dhs Boris Johnson . I did not know him very well, but i do find many of the things that have been said by borisjohnson the things that have been said by Boris Johnson and by the things that have been said by borisjohnson and by many others to be in conflict with reality as i understand it. In conflict with reality but also in conflict with the truth. I think the truth is reality, dont you . Are you saying to me. No im not im not having rights but it my map ive indicated when voting jeremy hunt is that if oui when voting jeremy hunt is that if our country im not here for character assassination of Boris Johnson my preference isjeremy hunt for reasons i set out and the bigger issue here is notjust who has misled us but how. And what the misleading is and what itll mean for the country and what it will mean for the country and the people. On the key issue i think its fair to say most because of it as a of upon and thats his best equipped to deliver the brexit a clear overwhelming majority of conservatives want, it seems that borisjohnson conservatives want, it seems that Boris Johnson fundamental message, brexit do or die, has collated this entire campaign and indeed arguable thatjeremy hunt signed up to the same message. Before i come directly to a nswer same message. Before i come directly to answer that question, you save the brexit that majority of conservatives want, lets not forget like the people in this country when you look at the interest at the country who are not conservative, andi country who are not conservative, and ifind it very country who are not conservative, and i find it very difficult how any Prime Minister wishing to leave the whole of the country can entirely ignore the views of 48 of people who passionately do not want to see brexit at all, because its bad for their country. They cannot be ignored, its not only by constitutionally but politically its crazy. Does 48 of people are going to remember they were com pletely going to remember they were completely ignored i remembered that the next election and for a long time to come. He seemed to be coming very close to saying this process where the next Prime Minister is being chosen between 60,000 conservative numbers and we know from all the survey evidence there are from all the survey evidence there a re 97 from all the survey evidence there are 97 white, average aged 57, you seem are 97 white, average aged 57, you seem to be suggesting for that to be the way, i pointing britains next Prime Minister the manual have to deal with brexit challenge not legitimate. I think you have to look ata number of legitimate. I think you have to look at a number of other things as well. When you look at the electorate for this particular election not only does it have the deficiencies he suggested that we are choosing a National Leader notjust for the party, but the next Prime Minister. Its not only a narrow electorate and the sense you set out, but a very large part of that electric appeared to have joined the conservative party within recent months are last year and i have not seen months are last year and i have not seen great months are last year and i have not seen great successes months are last year and i have not seen great successes by the party that would have created a flighting of members coming into it in the last year and i wish i had, i really do but i havent. So you have to ask why are they coming in, they are certainly not my funk is evidence that people who came into the party recently and from all one can gather, they have flooded into it because they wish to take a firm view on brexit and their people many cases i suspect that i cannot know this but i suspect they had their boots in the conservative party but had their hearts and brexit were you kept. Thats a very odd way to choose the next leader. You havent used the word is, but if their infiltrators, then one can assume you believe that whatever happens in the leadership election, the only genuine way to put this before the people is to go for a general election before brexit happens. People is to go for a general election before brexit happenslj dont election before brexit happens. dont think that would be the right way for several reasons and practical as well. If we had a general election at the moment we would not get what ideally we need, which is government with a clear majority that can determine policies and argue in parliament and had the majority to carry the policy out. If we had a general election, we would get a very Fragmented Parliament indeed, with very curious people getting elected and a government and an even weaker position than this government is at the present time because of lack of majority and that is not an anyones interest and certainly not in the interest of Good Government and the united kingdom, the general election would bea kingdom, the general election would be a bad idea from the point of view of everyone in the country. Surely asjeremy of everyone in the country. Surely as jeremy hunt put of everyone in the country. Surely asjeremy hunt put it, the most fundamental requirement right now is to show british people that had been giving them the decision to make on whether to remain or leave you, back decision and the referendum in 2016 will be followed through on by those who govern as parliament. Parliamentarians are in an extraordinary different difficult position we hadnt seen before. I would guess that 80 believe brexit isa would guess that 80 believe brexit is a disaster and we should not be reading europe and its damaging the country and to our future. But baby are hamstrung in carrying out their conscience and belief due to action because of a result of the referendum. A referendum in which David Cameron who ordered it said it would be no once in a lifetime opportunity for the people. You can bea opportunity for the people. You can be a little with that point called semantic or not or you can deal with whats in the interest of the people of the country in the future. Its not just people of the country in the future. Its notjust people who believe we should remain like me saying its going to be a disaster, the world bank it does, imf, the British Government does. The British Government does. The British Government itself is saying we will be worse off. We will lose growth and they will be innumerable problems and i had never seen a time in history when a British Government was ina in history when a British Government was in a position in permitting a policy to proceed that they know, that they know, well be back for the working people of this country. Now, which is a primary responsibility parliament . I will argue however unpopular it may be, that the primary responsibility parliament is to speak for the well being of the country and if they have to say to the country, you we re they have to say to the country, you were misled during the Referendum Campaign if they were repeatedly day after day, you are misled and we now know the facts of what brexit means and therefore should have the opportunity to reflect. Now that is what i would like to see parliament is. Why will you not accept the word from both borisjohnson and jeremy hunt that they will go back to brussels and negotiate a better deal than the one given before precisely because they are serious and genuine about leaving the European Union by october 31 even if the eu does not give them a better deal, with that negotiating study in hand, they say they will get a better deal and you know you well, delis in the la city and make last minute compromises. They will not compromise on the withdrawal deal itself. With respect, how do you know . Because they are rules based organisation and in the past they all treated they were a Smaller Union now though even without britain they had 27 nation state have to agree on a change and they will not all agree to that. Particularly with the problems with the irish backstop. The plank about the irish backstop is just the plank about the irish backstop isjust trade, the plank about the irish backstop is just trade, that you point underlying it is blood. The troubles in Northern Ireland and started with the murder of custom officers at that very same at customs point. And there are plenty of people, got off there are plenty of people, got off the Northern IrelandPolice Service and others, there are plenty of people both on the nationalist side and on the republican side, who would be only too willing to have an excuse to restart violence. So is not just concentrate excuse to restart violence. So is notjust concentrate on one aspect that that, thats a huge impediment. I spend a large number of my time in downing street beginning irish Peace Process to his eternal credit, tony blair picked up carried on and finished with an excellent deal in the good friday agreement. You cannot infringe that and risk returning to the problems we had before which 3000 people were killed. Ive never seen you, i talk to you several times in the past, but i never seen you sell exercise and so passionate and even angry, are you at a point where you are prepared to say to your own party which you say you have been in since 16, that if the party elects a Prime Minister who in the and it connects toa minister who in the and it connects to a meeting on october 31 with no deal if necessary, are you saying i will recommend to conservative mps that they bring down that Prime Minister . I dont necessarily think thats the way it all about. There are some things i think someone has to secondly did with the absurd suggestion of bypassing parliament by proroguing. There are things like that that should not be permitted to happen. I made my view perfectly clear, i believe direction in which we, i had no personal ambitions, clear, i believe direction in which we, i had no personalambitions, and not politics and im not going back at the politics is nothing government can offer me. Im not interested in any of that. All i am doing is on behalf of people who did not have a voice to speak, 48 that what we are doing is bad for the future of our country and parliament, im not parliament, but parliament, im not parliament, but Parliament Must decide how to protect that its not for me to tell them how to do it. Well, people would be interested if you are prepared to get a pathway to sort and blot a no deal brexit, but surely its incumbent upon us former leader of the consent for party and former conservative minister to say, whether like ken clark that you believe it would be right if it comes down to it for conservatives to vote no confidence in a Prime Minister and government thats committed to a no deal brexit. Minister and government thats committed to a nodeal brexit. As i said earlier quite clearly, if you have to choose between your country and your party, you choose your country. That applies in all circumstances with a nun put to one side. So you would leave the conservative party if you had to . You no, no its not a question about me meeting, im a centre right conservative when mission conservative when mission conservative which i had been since i was conservative which i had been since iwas16, i conservative which i had been since i was 16, i had conservative which i had been since iwas16, i had not moved. Iam not moving from that conservative party, if they move away from me, that the choice they make but i am not moving andi choice they make but i am not moving and i will stay where i am inside the conservative party fighting for that sort of conservative party that genuinely is one nation and genuinely is one nation and genuinely does not cast aside the interest of 40 of people in the country without reflecting upon what the needs and concerns are. Thats a sort of conservative party i wish to see and there are many conservatives in the house of commons who feel exactly as i do. Its not the whole of the conservative party who is absolutely obsessed with the question of fact brexit, at the second portion. As he say that, i am mindful of your own premiership and that moment in 93 when an unguarded moment, you refer to some of your cabinet colleagues who are die hard us sceptics as bustards. It seems to me at this point, where you are having to acknowledge that the bustards. Have one. They now represent your party. Two points, first it was entirely wrong of me to call them back, true but wrong. But as far as today is concerned, there are more of them. Some are the same people. But there are more of them. Let me answer the question first. This adds to the pressure upon you. 60 something percent of conservatives told a survey, a credible survey, that they regarded it brexit as more important than the survival of the party itself. So then what did they mean by brexit . On the day in which the brexit referendum was held, there are opinion polls majority of people actually wish to stay in a Single Market. The interpretation of what brexit is busy in part interpretation that was not made during the referendum. No one in the referendum said we will have an idea brexit. No one said that. Not Boris Johnson michael go that no one. Thats something that emerged after the result when they began to harden their position. In that position has been hardened and hardened and hard and hardened ever since. The right wing of the conservative party, the anti europea ns wing of the conservative party, the anti europeans more wing of the conservative party, the anti europea ns more accurately wing of the conservative party, the anti europeans more accurately say will push and push and push and when there is a confession or a appeased they push more. And the idea of a com pletely they push more. And the idea of a completely deal brexit was not what people thought they were voting for. Whatever people say now, that was not on the referendum ballot paper, it was not what the referendum was about and it was not what people thought on that day in which they voted. And it probably had actually picked up point out straightaway and said correct, you said we missed we must be because we dislike bureaucracy and restore sovereignty, therefore we are leaving the political elements of the European Union, but well keep the Single Market that Margaret Thatcher entered in the 19805 because its a oui entered in the 19805 because its a our economic interest to discuss. That wouldve been a fair reflection and more accurate of what most people had in their minds i believe at the time devoted. You believe that your view, but i want to invite you to look at a bigger horizon. Politic5 acro55 you to look at a bigger horizon. Politic5 across the world is changing, look at donald trump 5tyle politics in the United States i am very struck back at bori5 politics in the United States i am very struck back at Boris Johnson has just very struck back at Boris Johnson ha5ju5t 5aid very struck back at Boris Johnson ha5ju5t said if very struck back at Boris Johnson has just said if you to look at a bigger horizon. Politic5 acro55 has just said if you to look at a bigger horizon. Politic5 across the world is changing, look at donald trump world is changing, look at donald tru m p 5tyle world is changing, look at Donald Trump Style at politics in the United States i am very struck that bori5 United States i am very struck that borisjohnson has United States i am very struck that borisjohnson ha5ju5t United States i am very struck that Boris Johnson has just said United States i am very struck that borisjohnson ha5ju5t said if he is elected, he would make britain the greatest country in the world. That sort of message appears to be the 5tyle sort of message appears to be the style of politics and sort of message that people want, they want energy and positivity, but they are fed up with people like you telling them the problems of brexit. They may also want an indication of how its supposed to be done with a not . And to simply say im going to make this the greatest country in the wild i5 this the greatest country in the wild is fine, we would all like to do that no one can reject to that at the name, but at the very curious way of doing it to leave the richest largest free trade market the world has ever seen. In the last period when we said how we could become Global Britain and then failed our5elve5 Global Britain and then failed ourselves to negotiate a new trade dealer 5et ourselves to negotiate a new trade dealer set them up for negotiation, the eu has been a free trade deal with japan, canada, brazil and the eu has been a free trade deal withjapan, canada, braziland the rest all of which, all of which, we would have benefited from had we remained in5ide would have benefited from had we remained inside the European Union. That trade is the sort of thing that makes prosperity to make us the greatest country in the wild, we have thrown away, thrown away, over 50 trade deal5 acro55 have thrown away, thrown away, over 50 trade deal5 across the world totalling 70 countries and now these big new ones, people take about 30 years big new ones, people take about 30 yea r5 to big new ones, people take about 30 years to replicate that. big new ones, people take about 30 years to replicate that. 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