Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240714

Now on bbc news, hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, with me, zeinab badawi. Its 60 years since beijing put down the tibetan revolt, killing tens of thousands of people. And that was also when the dalai lama began his long exile from his homeland. He is still the tibetan peoples spiritual leader, but he relinquished political control eight years ago. His de facto president in exile, is my guest today, lobsang sangay, who says the situation is now critical and that tibet is a huge prison under chinas unfettered rule. So what are the tibetan peoples ambitions now . And what is their strategy for achieving it from the increasingly assertive and authoritarian chinese leadership . Theme music plays. Lobsang sangay welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, zeinab. How do the tibetan people remember that revolt 60 years ago . Thousands of tibetans from all over tibet gathered in lhasa, the capital city, to protect his holiness the dalai lama from the chinese army and then it resulted in a bloodshed. As per Chinese Military archive, 80,000 tibetans were killed between the month of march and september of 1959 and his holiness the dalai lama had to trek to india at midnight of march 17. So it has been 60 years of tragedy inside tibet, 60 years of exile, but at the same time 60 years of resilience and success because in exile we have set up a democratic system and, as per the vision of his holiness the dalai lama, we have parliamentary system, executive judiciary. How do you remember that anniversary though, amongst yourselves, in exile . Its a community of about 200,000 tibetans in exile, globally. Thats true. So we also observe 60th anniversary on march 10th, National Uprising day. So thousands of tibetans came and said tibet belongs to tibetans. China should get out of tibet. But it resulted in a bloodshed and then thousands of tibetans were killed. So definitely there was the turning point where we lost. And independent tibet came under chinas occupation. So what exactly are your demands now . What we seek is, all the countries around the world, subscribe to one china policy and the Chinese Government also says sovereignty and territorial integrity of china cannot be compromised. And his holiness the dalai lama said, ok, we will take that, just give us genuine autonomy within the framework. Because there is a Tibetan Autonomous Region now thats what its called but you say it does not go far enough. Thats true. It is only on paper and tibetans do not have power. So as for the constitution, and within china, genuine autonomy should be given to tibetan people. That is the middle way approach, which is middle between seeking separation from china and repression of the tibetan people. So you now advocate something called the 5 50 strategy its all rather confusing, i have to put it to you, that you do not want independence, there is an autonomous region in china called tibet, and you say it is not autonomous enough and now youve got this 5 50 strategy. What exactly is that . Within five years time, based on middle way approach, there should be dialogue between envoys of the dalai lama and representatives of the Chinese Government, to solve the issue of tibet, to grant tibet genuine autonomy. Thats five year strategy. But at the same time we should plan for 50 years if need be, 50 years to return to tibet, 50 years if we remain in exile, to maintain solidarity with tibetans inside tibet, to maintain contact with Chinese People so they understand the plight of tibetan people. So it is a long game youre playing. Short and long game. But i mean, can you do both . If you are going to play the long game, the chinese leadership willjust say, we willjust sit on our hands for the next 50 years theyve said theyve got a strategy thats long. That is true. But we have a short game too. But you are giving them the choice. We are not giving them choice. Because if you study exile governments, many exile governments, right here in london during the second world war, at some time they tend to disappear and dilute so what we are saying is, if necessary, we need a 50 year strategy, also tibetan identity inside tibet. Are there any talks behind the scene because we have not had any talks between the dalai lama and his representatives and the chinese leadership for nearly 10 years. Thats true, the last one was january 2010. But the informal contact, so to speak, there are a lot of buddhists china has become the largest buddhist country in the world, there are 300 million chinese who are buddhists. So many buddhists and some well intended people and also some chinese who have worked in the government before. Formally, officially . No, informally. But that is not going to get you anywhere, is it . You arejust maintaining links without any outcomes, arent you . Process for the sake of process. No, process with the hope that it will result in practical consequences. From our side, we are genuine, we are sincere, we are willing to meet envoys anytime, anywhere the Chinese Government wants us to. But it is not getting you anywhere. 0ne Us Congressional Executive Commission on china last year said, the Chinese Government continues to regard the dalai lama as a leader of separatist forces. That is still how they see him. That is how they say it officially, until now that is how they say it, but what we want is wisdom and will on the part of chinese leaders to see the repression of tibetans is not working and we need a solution. We are right here in the uk, an island, also had a similar issue but then good friday agreement did come even though many people did not believe it would come. You just mentioned, you used the word repression of the tibetan people in china. The United Nations Human Rights Council last year said conditions are fast deteriorating in tibet, and that the International Campaign for tibet says in the last 10 years 150 people have carried out self immolation in protest at beijingss actions. What can you do to prevent, in particular, these self immolation which have resulted in the vast majority of cases in people dying . I have made it categorically and consistently clear to tibetans inside tibet that you should not commit self immolation. Life is precious, one should live and continue to protest against the oppression of the Chinese Government. So thats been very clear. Despite the appeal, self immolation continues. Its very painful, very tragic. But what tibetans are saying is, what can i do . If i lead a small protest in the streets of any town of tibet, i will be arrested, i will be imprisoned, tortured, and often disappear and die. Theyre saying it is better to die quickly by burning oneself than prolonging your death and causing sufferings to your family members as well. So this self immolation is happening because Freedom House has come up with a report on Freedom Index every year. For the last three years in a row, they listed syria as the least free region, and tibet as the second least free region in the world. So its young and old alike. I mean, are there any cases that strike you in particular . 70 of them are very young. Very common, you know, 16 years old, 17, 20 years old and then all they say is, just before they burn themselves, they say, we want to we see the return of his holiness the dalai lama to tibet, we want basic freedom, like any other human being. The demands are very simple and universal. And still the Chinese Government refused to see the reality that oppression is not working and also the International Community should be talking more about it. But i can understand why all these are not reported well outside because the Chinese Government does not allow journalists to go to tibet. For example, bbc, i dont know, when was the last time . Its been a long time ago they were allowed unfettered access to tibet. . The United States has just passed a new act the reciprocal access to tibet act to broaden access for american officials, journalists and tourists to tibet so that may hopefully improve the situation. Yes, after passing the reciprocal access to tibet act, the Chinese Government allowed the Us Ambassador and a 30 member delegation. But it is a start. It is a start and the uk government and other governments should consider the same, you know. Once you have that kind of law, asking for access to tibet, that allowed bbcjournalists and others to visit tibet and report on tibetan issues. You said we do not report a lot about whats going on inside tibet but, for example, the way other minorities or groups of people, communities of people are treated in china weve heard a lot about the uyghurs the minority uyghurs and muslims and how they are treated and we have heard about what the government in beijing calls the Vocational Education camps where they go so their thinking can be corrected do such camps exist for the tibetans . Actually, the Party Secretary of xinjiang was the Party Secretary of tibet autonomous region. Xinjiang is where the uyghurs live, of course. So he is the same architect. He implemented the same repressive policies in tibet for five years, which is implementing in one year time. So you have these camps . We do have these camps but not as large as the uyghurs. So a lot of people are sent for education through labour, imprisonment, detention so. Do you have a figure . You say a lot of people, how many are detained in these camps or in prison . Now, that we really do not know. Even for xinjiang, its estimated people are guessing it could be as high as 1 million or more. For the uyghurs. For the uyghurs, but, as far as we know, the Political Prisoners who are arrested, imprisoned, were talking a few thousand. This has all got to be put in the context of how china is viewed in the International Community and we know that it is increasingly a global player, politically and economically and, under president xi, it is what people describe as a fairly authoritarian, centralised rule from beijing. Sarah sewall, who was special co ordinator on tibetan issues during the barack 0bama administration says, increasingly we see that countries that have typically spoken out on behalf of tibet are now shying away from doing so. She said this in a recent interview. China is too big for people to ignore. They will always side with china, not tibet. Yes, some countries do. We have seen even in europe, right, 28 members of the European Union is divided. You have 16 plus one. 16 european countries, plus one is china. Italy has joined the group. It is 17 plus one. Whenever there is a resolution passed on human rights in china in the Human Rights Council, most of the 16 members of europe will not vote. You are just restating what i said. What can you do about it . We know that china is obviously a permanent member of the un security council. In the last 65 years at the United Nations, we have seen 460 or more resolutions passed to do with the Israeli Palestinian conflict. 0n tibetjust one because, of course, china vetoes. They are very powerful. What can you do . Appeal to all the democratic countries. Say, you say you are committed for human rights, you say you support of nonviolence, then you should support tibet issues. These moral principles that you claim should be implemented and should be shown, demonstrated. You are saying this but it is falling on deaf ears. There you are, the tibetan government in exile, and his holiness the dalai lama, in dharamsala, in india, where you are also based, even india is not supporting you. Jamestown Foundation Research Analysis Group in the us, adrian zenz says, india tends to favour relations with china at least over tibetan issues in general. Your host nation is not even backing you . India has done the most for tibetan people. Tibetan administration is based in india. The largest number of tibetans are in india. 0ur education, so many things, are subsidised and supported by the indian government. By far they support us the most. But when it comes down to it, it will go with china thats the point. No, so far not. For example india has not signed one china principle in the last few years as part of an agreement. But last year it prohibited a pro tibetan rally in delhi. They told us to move, under the chinese pressure, they told us to move to dharamsala. Exactly, that is the point im making. Under chinese pressure, india will support beijing. On a few things, yes, but the event happened and we got more coverage because of chinese pressure. But thats changing. Tsering shakya, a tibetan academic at the university of the british columbian canada says india is sensing that tibets appeal in the west is declining. Thats true, isnt it . And so if it sees no concerted International Effort on your behalf, it will say, why should we bother . No, i think hes wrong. I travel to all the capitals and i do see support. Yesterday, the honourable Speakerjohn Bercow acknowledge me in the house of commons. Thats the british house of commons, yeah. And also japan. Ten years ago they would not mention tibet. They have established the largest tibet support parliamented group in japan with 92 members of parliament. In the czech republic, they have established 51 members tibet support Parliament Group which is the largest in europe. So you see that. But governments are reluctant to meet the dalai lama. I mean, we saw what happened in the uk in 2013 when David Cameron did meet the dalai lama, he was then going on a trip to china subsequently and said, oh, britain has opened a new chapter on this whole matter. The vatican, the pope, for other reasons didnt see the dalai lama in 2014. Its unfortunate, yes. Saying that, the vatican said because of the delicate situation with china. Its unfortunate, the pope who is another moral leader should not shy away from standing up and meeting with his holiness dalai lama. Having said that, his holiness met with the president of slovakia and other leaders too, but my point is. But key countries. My point is, ijust gave testimony, spoke in front of the Canadian Senate committee on Foreign Relations and trade. I spoke in front of the czech Sub Committee on environment. So i do travel and i do get hearings as well. And theres another aspect to all this that makes your work difficult as the president in exile for the tibetans, lobsang sangay, which is what Robert Farley from the Patterson School of diplomacy and International Commerce in the us, he says, while in the 1990s, free tibet activists had a relatively free hand in many spaces, beijing has used money and social mobilisation to foreclose some of that rhetorical territory. So, china, through its infrastructure projects, through lifting people out of poverty, that is resonating with the tibetans in the autonomous region in china. No, not at all. Thats where we have 153 self immolation. Unprecedented in the history of tibet, it never happened. Out of millions of people. The total population of tibetans in the whole of china is about 7 million. 6 million, yes. But it does it symbolise the resistance of the tibetan people. Not just self immolation, nomads protesting, farmers protesting. Wherever there is mining taking place, tibetans are protesting. Its true, the repressive system which is systematic and thorough, makes it difficult for tibetans to protest but they are doing it. But this economic might of china and it has the High Speed Railway link and official growth rates of the country are high and tibet as a whole benefits from that, the chinese official, most senior official in tibet, has said, the dalai lama has not done a single good thing for tibet since he left. Whereas they see these economic benefits and they might think well, well just live our lives within this Greater China thats prospering. Not at all. For any given day, if the Chinese Government is that confidence, you can have a referendum of tibetan people and make them choose between china and tibet or chinese leader and tibetan leader. I can say hands down, overwhelmingly, tibetans in tibet would vote to have their own tibetan leaders. Alright, their own tibetan leaders, but they havent got very far and there is dissatisfaction with what the leadership has delivered. 60 years you have all been in exile. Not you personally but the whole movement. For example, the 30,000 strong tibetan youth congress. Its president Tenzing Jigme says there is a sense of frustration among our people who have lived for so many years in exile. We have to educate people about the need for an independent tibet. Theyre marching to a different tune. They see the middle way is not delivered, they want something different. When youre young, you will be frustrated, you will be agitated, so i completely understand that. In fact, the Tibetan Administration have come out with a report saying tibet was never part of china but middle way remains a viable option. Historically, tibet was independent and do we deserve independence . Yes. But is there a possibility we could get independence from china . No. So we have to be pragmatic. Based on the reality of the world and china, middle way approach came out and its for genuine autonomy for the tibetan people. So your aspirations are clear. But its the means, so what can you do to meet these frustrations . Could you carry out civil disobedience campaigns, mass protests, like we have seen in hong kong against beijing policies . Turn to violence . No, violence is futile. The mass protests inside tibet, given the choice, tibet would do it but they are not allowed, they will be repressed immediately. But outside, all kinds of protests are happening all over the world. For example, this march 10th, all over the world, we had the largest demonstration and participation of tibetans in the last 60 years. But does this get you anywhere . I put it to you that as nathan hill who is from the school of oriental and African Studies at london university, says, the fate of tibet is in the hands of the chinese state. Tibetans outside the region are not very relevant to the fate of tibet and this includes the dalai lama. You really dont have any impact. We do because ive spoken to hundreds of tibetans inside tibet. They do see us as the partner, as the spokesperson, but if you study any movement, had you asked Nelson Mandela in the late 1980s, many news media ruled him out. They wrote obituaries about him. Even gandhi when he was fighting for independence of india, you look at east timor or Northern Ireland. Often these things happen. Eventually, things change and as far as tibet is concerned, things will change for the better. That much we are very sure. You represent a very small group. You were voted for 58 for the second time by an electorate which is what, 60,000 . Yes. Its a very, very small mandate you have and greg bruno, a writer on Tibetan Affairs says many tibetan refugees are just pushed away by time, theyre just moving on. Not at all. In fact, tibetans across the world are Getting Better education, better exposure. And they will be final talented and better leaders in coming and they will be far more talented and better leaders in coming years to come. Similarly, inside tibet, too, they have not given up hope and we are partners. What we represent in exile is the moral symbol as the spokesperson for the tibetan people. Your moral symbol is the dalai lama but now he is about 83 years of age, he is cutting back on his travels, he is tired. When we look at the post dalai lama era for all of you, it is going to be even harder for you to raise interest. Youve lost that moral compass. Already our situation is very hard. We lost our country, we lost our freedom, so we should persist and persevere. Post dalai lama will be difficult but having said that, hes the 14th dalai lama, he is very healthy, he will live very long. We hope so. We will have 15 dalai lama and we will carry forth the tibetan movement. But who can succeed him, when in 1995 he identified a 6 year old boy as the 11th panchen lama who could succeed him. He much be about 30 now. Kidnapped by the chinese and we dont know what has happened to him, do we . We dont know about panchen lama. It has been about 30 years since he disappeared and we are very concerned about the situation and we demand his immediate release. So hopefully, the Chinese Government will see to it that he be released, he has been given proper education, thats what they should be doing. This is a religious issue, a spiritual leader who disappeared for 30 years. The dalai lama has long advised the tibetan people to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. 60 years, you havent got anywhere, you were born obviously well after the exile of the dalai lama, you have never seen tibet. Born in exile in india. Do you think you will ever see it in any meaningful sense . Of course, of course, definitely. In 2005, i went to beijing. I was allowed to go, they promised that i would be allowed to go to bed but i did not. Allowed to go tibet but i did not. But in my lifetime, i will definitely see tibet, that much i know and freedom will be restored for tibetans and his holiness dalai lama will return to tibet. Lobsang sangay, thank you very much for coming on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Hello there. Uk forecasts coming up in a moment but first of all, well start off with a look at what has been an incredible week in europe. A week thats seen newjune temperature records set in all of these countries, most impressively in france where the new record of 46 beat the old record by five degrees celsius. That extreme heatwave is now beginning to come to an end because we have cooler and fresher air day by day, working in across these areas of europe, moderating the temperatures significantly. It will come as a relief, i am sure, to many in europe. Here in the uk, we have had skies like this over the course of the weekend, broken cloud and spells of sunshine and more of the same to come in the week ahead. Often the weather is going to dry with some sunshine and the sunshine is going to feel warm. But there will be rain at times across the north west of the uk and indeed if you are heading outside over the next three hours, there is a risk of seeing some rain in scotland, a few showers for Northern Ireland, Northern England and perhaps the north of wales as well. But otherwise, the further south you go, the drier the weather is. It is certainly not going to be a cold start of the day. Temperatures 11 14 degrees first thing. Looking at the weather picture in more detail for monday. We have this seclusion pushing southwards. Thats going to take an area of thicker cloud with it, along with showers. So scotland seeing plenty of showers through the day and a few will get across Northern Ireland and into Northern England and north wales as the day goes by. South of this area, for southern wales, the midlands, east anglia and southern counties of england, the weather should stay dry with well broken cloud and some fairly lengthy spells of sunshine around. That is why we will see some of the highest temperatures towards the south and east, temperatures into the low 20s. A little on the cool side for the far north of scotland. Another sign of summer is the fact that wimbledon starts today and its going to be a dry day with some sunshine. Temperatures into the low 20s. Similar weather, actually, lasting throughout the week although perhaps getting a little bit warmer towards the end of the week. For tuesday, weatherwise, fewer showers and what showers that are around will be mainly across the north west of the country. Generally more in the way of sunshine for most areas and temperatures generally high teens to low 20s for many of us and still a little on the cool side for northern scotland. Later on in the week, cloud will thicken across the north and west of scotland with outbreaks of rain for a time. As you can see, for much of the time, the weather will be dry and bright for many areas. Across england and wales, it looks like it will be a largely dry week with some sunshine. Temperatures running into the low mid 20s, feeling warm in that july sunny weather. Thats your weather. This is the briefing. Im samantha simmonds. 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