Now on bbc news, shaun ley speaks to the chairman of the brexit party, richard tice, on hardtalk. Hello and welcome to hardtalk. Im shaun ley. Brexit notjust an event, now a whole political movement. At the end of may with its leader, nigel farage, at the helm, the brexit party swept the board in the European Parliament elections, humiliating the uks governing conservative party. Five years ago, the same story triumph for nigel farage, albeit leading a party with a different name. Richard tice back then was a conservative. Now, hes chairman of mr farages party and one of its european meps. With many experts predicting costly, bitter departure from the european union, is the triumph of the brexit party a humiliation for the United Kingdom and its politics . Richard tice, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much, great to be here. The elections are out of the way, for now at least. Lets put the sloganeering to one side if we may. People watch this programme around the world, hundreds of thousands of miles from europe, many have never even been to the United Kingdom to europe. They dont necessarily understand the passion that brexit has provoked. And in your own case, personally, where does it come from, this conviction that the uk needs to get out of europe . Ive been deeply eurosceptic for over 20 years, actually. I was very involved in the campaign not to join the euro, which would have been an absolute disaster for this country. This is the single currency . The single currency of europe, which the uk quite rightly stayed out of in the late 1990s. Now, the conviction comes from the belief that we are a proud sovereign independent nation, and unfortunately, with the european union, much of that sovereignty has been given away to brussels. Or shared, some would say, between the uk and the other members of the eu. Well, its not shared if actually they make all of the decisions and you basically have to take their decisions, theirjudgements, their regulations and their rules. We have given it away. A lot of people say that as a consequence of brexit, because of the nature of International Trading relations, you will end up in a position where instead of being around the table, helping to shape rules, sometimes making concessions, its called negotiation. Correct. You will be as in a situation where you will be a victim, if you like, a powerless player outside the game. Complete nonsense, exactly the opposite. Yes, we will be around the table, but we are in charge, we are in control. It is our decision whether or not to enter into those deals. We will be back at the top table of the wto, as opposed to a subservient slave of the european union. So we can decide whether or not the terms of a trade are good enough, or whether we want a partial trade deal, or no trade deal at all. It is our decision, that is what sovereignty is about. I want to talk a bit about the world trade organisation, and trade deals and how they come about later. That is a very important part of this. What should be the last few months before we leave the european union, who knows, politics is very uncertain business at the moment. You are a a very successful property businessman over the last 30 years or 0. In a sense you have thrived in the kind of economy that the uk has had. An economy that has operated as part of membership of the european union. Again, i asked the question, because it surprises a lot of people, why you would want to put that at risk. Because you would have to accept, wouldnt you, that any change poses risk, and a lot of Business People thrive on risk, but it causes a lot of uncertainty for others. Listen, ive been in business boardrooms for 30 years. There should be a sign in any well run business, on the wall of any boardroom, that says uncertainty. Because life is uncertainty. Business is uncertain, because of all the technological change. So actually you embrace that, you welcome it. But the truth is, you know, if we take back control, then we can make those decisions. And lets just remember, less than 10 of uk businesses export to the european union. The business that i run at the moment is a uk based business, but ive run a £1 billion multinational stock market listed company. I tripled the share price in four years. So i know how this sort of stuff works. So basically you wont be affected. I wont be affected at all. Great, so you can take the risk with everyone elses business. But remember, thats 90 of the uk business community. Why should they be burdened with the rules and regulations determined in brussels that affect their day to day lives . They shouldnt be. And lets remember, yes, of course, if you export to a different country, you abide by their rules and regulations. Why should our own domestic businesses that are only operating domestically, why should we suffer that increase in cost . We shouldnt. Theres been some concern that the brexit party is not being run in a very businesslike way. In the property business, for example, you presumably know where your money comes from. You have to know where your money comes from. You dont in the brexit party. Thats complete nonsense. Really . In fact, the opposite is true. We have been running in a very businesslike way. We are like a fast growing tech start up. That is why we have managed to achieve in a matter of six weeks what most Political Parties would achieve in a matter of years. That doesnt answer our question. Crosstalk. We running it in an executive, fast moving, fast Decision Making capacity. We know where our money is coming from, because we have got a series of processes in place, and the Electoral Commission have been in not once, but twice, within the space of nine days, to check that out. And in the middle ofjune they said that you needed to get your act together. They said you needed to change your Online System for accepting payments, to require donors to give their full address and Contact Details while only accepting payment from cards with matching billing and payer addresses. Im not in business, but i do buy things using cards and i know that if i dont provide that information, i cant buy most things. Crosstalk. Theres a couple of things here. They made a specific recommendation that was fundamentally flawed. They made a very important one. They wanted us to lift the cap that we self imposed of £500. Ok, which means that because anything below £500 is not a donation, it is a gift. And therefore you dont need to identify it. Dont you need to know who those people are . We do know who those people are. But how do you know if they dont give their information . Because they are registered supporters, they have signed up, they have paid their £25. We know who they are. So you have their information, you have their addresses . Crosstalk. I am answering it. Do you know who these people are . Do you have their names and addresses . Yes, we do. They are registered supporters, they have signed up, the sort of information that has been spouted by various people, commentators, is nonsense. In the Electoral Commission came in at one hours notice because gordon brown wrote them a letter and politically interfered in the middle of an election. I am sure he will be delighted to know he has had such an impression. Im sure he would, but that is disgraceful. We are very happy to accept recommendations. I am a businessman. So why dont you accept the £500 recommendation . The one to lift the limit . Because it does exactly the opposite of what they wanted. I actually think they have deliberately suggested it to make it more likely that we breach the rules. We impose that, i have already written to them and said were not going to take their recommendation because it is fundamentally flawed. We put that cap in place, which means we are much less likely to breach regulations. Let me put to you what the commission said, in particular the structure the party has adopted, coupled with insufficient procedures, leaves it exposed to a high and ongoing risk of receiving and accepting impermissible donations and being unable to maintain accurate records of transactions. And the reason they single out this £500 question is very simple. You dont know, and we as. Hang on, we as members of the public dont know, whether somebody might in order not to. In order to preserve their anonymity, they might make a series of donations which are in excess of £500. It could be a lot more, and they can make it as a series of individual donations. We have no way of knowing it. Again, if you just ask me, we have a process to spot that. You have a process, but you cant make it accountable to anyone else. Yes we can, and we showed the Electoral Commission. We have a process for checking that, and at the end of the day lets remember its our responsibility, no one elses. It is our responsibility. We have a process, it is being carried out and the suggestion to lift that cap is fundamentally flawed and we have rejected it. Let me ask you about the message of the party. You have described it as simple and clear. The message is essentially, is it not, that the establishment has betrayed the public, and is in danger, is at risk, of betraying brexit. Well, its incredible, isnt it . Its three years and a day. As we record this programme. As we record this programme, since we voted to leave the european union. And yet we have not left. You know, we have been promised by all sorts of people, the Prime Minister over 100 times in the house of commons, that we would be leaving on 29 march. We havent. It may or may not be 31 october. Our suspicion is that it wont be. And we were promised, the people were promised, that their vote counted, that parliament was outsourcing this decision to the people, and they would carry out this decision, and it was a once in a generation decision. And yet now, actually, they are trying to say no, it is parliaments decision. Were not going to leave without a no deal. Letsjust remember, parliament voted twice, when it agreed to serve article 50, with or without a deal. This was the triggering process. This was the process of triggering it. They it enacted the bill last summer, what was called the european withdrawal act. Again, it voted to leave on 29 march without a deal. So why have mps suddenly bottled it, wimped out and said it is all a bit too scary . Why didnt they get ready, why didnt they prepare, so actually we could leave on 29 march . In the words of your leader writing back in april in a british newspaper, they arrogantly stuck two fingers up to their own manifestos, lied to the electorate, and done Everything Possible to thwart the result. The sheer scale of their betrayal of the country is difficult to grasp in the light of this. The best option open to brexiteers is to punish both establishment parties, which is what happened in European Parliament elections. Lets assume brexit happens as you hope it will happen. At some point there has to be some process of bringing the country back together again. If this rhetoric continues to be deployed, how is that going to increase the chances of that happening . Well, because we havent left. The best way of bringing the country back together. And lets remember, actually, the truth is the country is always divided on politics. Youve always got different parties with different views. But this is a historically seismic moment. Doesnt that create a responsibility on politicians to be very careful about the language they use . Absolutely, yes, and the responsibility is to abide by the will of the people. Because that is the foundation of democracy. In the moment you breach that, then it is a very slippery slope. But yes, therefore, the sooner we leave, the sooner the will of the people is carried out, and we can then run oui own country. Great, and then actually you start to bring us back together again. And i say to people, listen, if you want to have a review of the decision, ten, 15, 20 years down the track, fine. But youve got to leave first. How long were you in the conservative party . How long would you say you were a conservative for . Essentially ive only ever been a member of the conservative party. There were a few years when i left it because i had a disagreement with some of the policies of david cameron, but otherwise ive been a memberfor a couple of decades or so. You know, i believe in free markets, i believe in the role of the individual. So yes, i consider myself always a conservative minded type person. Borisjohnson, the front runner in the contest to succeed theresa may as leader and therefore to become Prime Minister says he also wants brexit by 31 october. If he wins, youve got your way, havent you . Wont it be time to go home . Well, at the end of the day, lets see what happens, shall we . But the clear message that we are getting is that people have lost confidence in the two main parties. And whats really changing now is that its not a matter of being on the left or the right. Actually its much more of a cultural thing. Are you a cautious, slightly managerial, risk averse remainer type, or are you actually an ambitious, optimistic, risk taker. There you go again, can there not be people who want to stay in the uk. Yes, it is a generalisation, but people generalise when you talk about left and right. I think things are changing, and we say actually it is a matter of right and wrong. Right and wrong, you see, it is the language, isnt it . Them and us. It is tribal. How is that going to bring people together again . As i say, people always disagree on politics. Thats the joy of it. You have a vote and you carry out that vote. Since there is, as we stand at the moment, who knows what events may result, but he is likely to become british Prime Minister in a months time, i mean, is he in the right place or the wrong place at the moment . Well, i think to be honest it is hard to know, because he does flip flop around. He did write all sorts of positive things about the Withdrawal Agreement that theresa mays negotiated was a terrible deal, he described it as a vassal state that we would become, and then he flip flopped and voted for it. I mean, you know, what sort of confidence and trust have you got in someone that is prepared to sell our country down the river at the third time of asking . But are you as a party in any kinds of discussions with the conservatives or with conservatives about the possibility of some kind of electoral solution . No. Why would we be . At the end of the day we have just won by a landslide the last national election. But there could be a labour government, so you might want to prevent that coming about. I want to win. Give or take, we are topping the national polls, and we will be coming out this sunday, when we have a huge rally, over 5,000 people, with boris and mr hunt, the other candidate, they could only get about 700 or 800. Weve got a big rally. We are calling it the big vision rally. We will be announcing our policies moving forwards, why we think actually there is so much more ambition, optimism, that we can offer the country. Lets talk about optimism. We will leave the thought of what may or may not happen with the conservatives. This is about the brexit party and your vision, really. In the event that the uk leaves the eu, and a deal is not secured, there will be tariffs, tariffs to make British Goods more expensive for europeans to purchase. You accept that . Only if we want to impose them. Why would we . Its our choice. The great thing is it is our choice. But it is not our choice. You mentioned at the start of the interview the wto rules, and those rules are very clear, arent they, about what happens in the case of there not being an arrangement between the uk and the eu, as there wouldnt be, then the tariff rules must be applied consistently. If we chose not to apply tariffs in the uk to people who are buying our goods, that would have to apply to every one of the wto members. But isnt that great . Where there were goods and things, Agricultural Products that we do not grow, of course we would want to reduce those. Why should we prop up spanish Orange Growers when we can take them tariff free from elsewhere in the world . These are the opportunities, to reduce tariffs to zero or a much lower level that will reduce costs for oui consumers. It is a seductive picture but there are two problems. Lets deal with the first one. Firstly, the european union. When the eu sits under the wto rules, which you think are ok or at least better than the eu rules, the eu would be faced with the prospect of unless it imposed tariffs on us, it would have to abandon all tariffs it applies to other countries. On that basis, the logic will be that it will impose those tariffs and we dont know what those tariffs would be. There is a list, they set it out. Crosstalk. It would be a farmer would be facing, what . A 70 tariff imposed on beef, if it were exporting beef from the uk. 10 on finished automotive vehicles. Those are real, practical things that would come in immediately we left without a deal, assuming we did. The great thing is. You accept that, dont you . If they decide to impose them, yes. But this is what negotiation is about. The reality is we negotiated the terrible deal. Lets be clear. This current government, theyve tried and failed. So we are saying that our best negotiating position, bearing in mind that the eu exported almost 100 billion more to us than we do them, so they would suffer much more if tariffs were imposed, we have the choice. As to what tariffs we do or do not impose. And, you know what . Hey, yes, people may purchase a few more cars produced in the uk for use in the uk and we may eat a bit more of the food that we produce in the uk. Things will change. But life changes. What about our exporters . People will adapt, i accept that. You said yourself that your own business is not faced with exposure. Youve been open about that. What about people with business that depends on this trade and they suddenly find that their goods have been priced out of competitiveness . Its funny, isnt it . They either absorb the costs because the swedish person buying Automotive Parts says sorry mate, im not a charity. Im a hard businessman. You absorb the cost and if you cant absorb the cost you go under. Its funny, isnt it . I dont know any farmers who could absorb 45 70 . People seem to forget that three years ago, our exporters got a 10 12 cut because of the movement in the exchange rate. So that increased their profits. Theyve had that for three years. What have they done with that . They have been better off for the last three years. They may have decided to invest that in the business or whatever. And you think that is a good thing, presumably . They have had a serious leg up. So jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, just put up with plain bread today . That is the nature of business. But our government can make its own decisions. We can help exporters to reduce Corporation Tax or change capital allowances, change vat. It is our choice and we are in control and that is how it should be. But it will depend on negotiation and i wonder if you appreciate how little time is left. I am well aware of how little time is left. But the reality is that businesses had three years now to get ready. I have been in involved in business. You dontjust have plan a, you have plans b, c and d. Business should have been getting ready but the only base case, the only thing you could guarantee with the wto deal. That is what all business should have been getting ready for. And the smartly run ones have been doing that. Let me tell you about the city of london. No, dont. Tell me about your policy and where you stand on this. I do wish we had longer, but we do not. Fine. On this question of the wto rules, im baffled by the number of people including people involved with Nigel Farages party who have said there is no need to worry about the wto rules because we can get a deal. As you say, the eu would not be daft enough to impose tariffs but you also acknowledge that because of the pressure from other countries, it may end up doing just that. People started to say that we can rely on article 2a, meaning we do not have to do tariffs because there will be a gentlemans agreement. And then they discovered that that article will not apply in this situation. Ijust find i just find that ijust find that people in the public havent read the rulebook. Let me stop you there. I have got to stop you there because article 2a can apply. I went over to geneva injanuary to meet senior people from the wto who said quite clearly that article 2a is a very suitable solution for this situation. When . Who told you this . A very senior person in the wto. Ill tell you what happened. Why. You asked me the question i want to answer it. What happens is that both sides get together and say, right, we dont want tariffs, no quotas and you reach an interim arrangement while you basically spend one or two years dotting the is and crossing the ts. That is available, regrettably our government have refused to consider it and not yet done it. That is why we asked the government to come in, to look at the no deal preparations and to recommend this process. And then it is a straightforward matter of negotiating it between the two sides. And you have already got the political declaration. Senior people at the wto confirmed to me that it would be relatively easy to convert the political declaration that is the terms, into article 24. If that is what the eu wants to do. But Michel Barnier said no future trade talks can begin until agreement is reached on three key areas Citizens Rights relatively easy that one. The irish border which is pretty difficult. And the uks financial obligations which would also be controversial. In those circumstances, there is no use talking about article 2a because it will not happen. Youve fallen. You fell for the classic negotiating trick. A leading person says that no deal means there is no agreement and therefore article 2a does not apply. It applies where there is a potential agreement. Correct. The agreement needs to be outlined. There is no outlined agreement. The best way to get an agreement is to at least ask for it and our clueless useless Civil Servants and feeble politicians have failed to ask for it and it is a disgrace. Sir ivan rogers. Mr tice groans. Was the uks representative to the european union. And thankfully he no longer is. Let me put to you what he says. You can respond to it. He said deliberately to walk out of the deepest internal market on the planet without a replacement looser preferential deal in place is an act of economic lunacy. No deal is not a destination, it is simply a volatile and transitional state of purgatory in which you forfeited all leverage to the other side. He is completely wrong and thankfully he is no longer in that position. But is he wrong . He is wrong because he believed the other side and is not prepared to bat for britain. And thats why you need Business People to come in and do these negotiations because these Civil Servants have shown themselves to be out of their depth. If you do what has been suggested, lets say whether it is borisjohnson or he may invite nigel farage and you to come along. We have offered. Youve offered . And 5 Million People, 5. 25 Million People have voted for us to do just that. That was one of our three things. You are right, that was one of your things. If we are abandoning tariffs and you say there is a perfectly good economic case to do that, where is our leverage any future negotiation over a trade deal . Weve already opened ourselves up. Come on in no, i said it is our choice. So we can work out what we will reduce because that keeps negotiating leverage. If we dont grow oranges in this country, why do we want to put tariffs on oranges that are coming in . We do make cars in this country and it is not right, for example, that a 10 tariff is charged on us cars coming into the uk but they only charge us 2. 5 . It would be easy to do a partial trade deal with the us on items like that. You spoke about the importance of risk and the value of risk. How much risk is acceptable . What would you be comfortable with . I dont see it as a risk at all. Because we left it too late. Theres none at all . We got back control of our economy, we do not need to waste 39 billion quid of our money sending it to brussels when no one else pays for a trade deal. Canada did not pay for a trade deal with europe. Why should we . We do not owe them anything. The house of lords report confirms that. Our useless and weak Civil Service negotiatiors have unnecessarily agreed to it. Richard tice, chairman of the brexit party, thank you for being with us on hardtalk. Thank you. Thanks. Hello, thats the Stormy Weather over with for now. And for the rest of the week many places are turning warmer and sunnier though the flow of air around this area of High Pressure coming in towards north sea coastal counties will keep it relatively cool here compared with elsewhere. Murky in some spots as well. Some cloud around to start wednesday across much of england and parts of wales, muggy in the southern areas, single figures for some for some in scotland. And for wednesday its scotland and Northern Ireland that will see the lions share of the sunshine. North west england, southern england brightening up, the odd shower in the far south west. The midlands and east wales rather cloudy, misty, a bit drizzly in some spots. This flow of air from the north is bringing that pressure. Quite windy through the English Channel coast and the flow is coming into the north sea coast, thats why temperatures here are towards their midteens in some spots. But from western scotland, Northern Ireland and west wales, the warm spots here will be into the low 20s. And becoming warmer and sunnier to come as we go through the rest of the week. Overnight into thursday, some cloud dipping into england and wales, rather misty and rather drizzly in some spots. Warm and muggy it is going to be fresher as it is going to thursday morning. The air coming towards north sea coast, western scotland and Northern Ireland and southern england are warming up into the low 20s in some places and it gets warmer still for the rest of the week. The low cloud should disappear for most of us. Elsewhere you can see abundant sunshine, rather cloudy in the north of scotland. Getting warmer in the west on thursday, there will be some spots creeping into the upper 20s, High Pressure moving out towards the north sea on friday so we will tap into some even warmer air across western parts of the uk in particular. A lot of sunshine around, here is going to be a little warmer on friday. It is going to be the warmest day in the west where some here in north west scotland, for example, could be near 30 degrees celsius. Western areas will turn cooler over the weekend. The weekend starts with something hotter to the east and particularly in south east england with damages beating into the low 30s on saturday, but if you dont like the sound of that, thank goodness youre not elsewhere in europe with these temperatures on the cards this week as the european heatwave hits hard. Im rico hizon in singapore. The headlines the top border official in the United States steps down amid an outcry over Migrant Children held in horrific conditions. A war of words between us and iranian leaders, as the acrimony between the two nations escalates. Twitter is the weapon of choice for now, as diplomacy stalls. Im kasia madera in london. Also in the programme making a pitch for leadership, the man vying with borisjohnson to be the next british Prime Minister says it is a question of character. The judgement is who is the person we trust as Prime Minister to go