Now on bbc news, shaun ley speaks across the country, to the chairman of the brexit party, and its going to be another mild and fairly muggy feeling night, richard tice, on hardtalk. With temperatures between around 10 16 degrees overnight. So heading through wednesday, once we have lost that frontal system, High Pressure tends to topple in from the north, becoming more of a player and quietening the weather down. So through the day on wednesday, hello and welcome to hardtalk. There will not be as many heavy downpours and thunderstorms. Im shaun ley. Brexit notjust an event, now a whole political movement. At the end of may, with its leader, still the chance of perhaps one nigel farage, at the helm, or two showers lingering the brexit party swept the board across the far south west in the European Parliament of england, the channel isles too. Most other parts of elections, humiliating the uks the country looking dry. Best of the sunshine, i think, across scotland and northern ireland. Governing conservative party. Quite a bit of cloud for england five years ago, the same story triumph for nigel farage, albeit leading a party and wales but it will tend to with a different name. Break up through the day, allowing temperatures to rise to around about 23 degrees or so. Later in the week then, that richard tice was a conservative High Pressure topples in further. Then, now hes chairman we see low pressure moving of mr farages party out towards the west. And one of its meps. So we are going to be drawing with many experts predicting in these warm southerly or even south easterly winds. Lifting temperatures to as high as about 31 degrees a costly, bitter departure or so in the warmer spots. So through the day on thursday, plenty of sunshine around. From the european union, its looking like a dry day across the uk, bit more brightness, did the triumph of the brexit party i think, compared to wednesday. Still a little cooler, with a bit more cloud bring discredit to the around parts of eastern scotland and north east england as well, where we draw the breeze off the sea. United kingdom and its politics . The warmest temperatures are going to be found further west. But later on in the week richard tice, welcome to hardtalk. It is looking dry, mostly sunny, again hot and pretty humid, and also fairly muggy and sticky by night. Bye for now. Thank you very much, great to be here. The elections are out of the way, for now at least. Lets put the sloganeering to one side, for now at least. People watch this programme around the world, hundreds of miles from europe, many have never even been to the United Kingdom to europe. They dont necessarily understand the passion that brexit has provoked. And in your own case, personally, where does it come from, this conviction that the uk needs to get out of europe . Ive been deeply eurosceptic for 20 years, actually. I was very involved in the campaign not tojoin the i was very involved in the campaign not to join the euro, which would have been an absolute disaster for this country. The single currency of europe, which the uk quite rightly stayed out of in the late 1990s. Now, the conviction comes from the belief that we are a proud sovereign independent nation, and u nfortu nately, independent nation, and unfortunately, with the european union, much of that sovereignty has been given away to brussels. Or shared, some would say, between the uk and the other members of the eu. Well, its not said if actually they make all of the decisions and you basically have to take their decisions, theirjudgements, their regulations and their rules. We have given it away. A lot of people say that as a consequence of brexit, because of the nature of International Trading relations, you will end up in a position where instead of being around the table, helping to shape rules, sometimes making concessions, its called negotiation. Correct. You will be as ina negotiation. Correct. You will be as in a situation where you will be a victim, if you like, a player outside the game. Complete nonsense, exactly the opposite. Yes, we will be around the table, but we are in charge, we are in control. It is our decision whether or not to enter into those deals. We will be back in the top table of the wto, as opposed toa the top table of the wto, as opposed to a subservience slave of the european union. So we can decide whether or not the terms of a trade are good enough, or whether we want are good enough, or whether we want a partial trade deal, for no trade deal at all. It is our decision, thatis deal at all. It is our decision, that is what sovereignty is about. wa nt to that is what sovereignty is about. want to talk a little bit about the world trade organisation, that is a very important part of this. What this is the briefing, im sally bundock. Should be the last few months before our top story we leave the european union. Who boriss brexit pledge knows . Politics is very uncertain the man tipped to be britains business at the moment. You are a a next pm tells the bbc very successful property businessman over the last 30 years or so. In a we will leave on time. Sense you have thrived in the kind of economy that the uk has had. An economy that has operated as part of much of western europe braces itself for a heatwave membership of the european union. With temperatures set to reach again, i asked the question, because it surprises a lot of people, way forty degrees celsius. You would want to put that at risk. How much did it cost to refurbish the home of these newlyweds . Because you would have to accept, wouldnt you, that any change poses this years royal accounts have the answer. Risk, and a lot of Business People thrive on risk, but it causes a lot nissan puts the brakes on plans for merger talks with its alliance of uncertainty for others. Listen, partner renault as the boss ive been in business boardrooms for apologies for the carlos ghosn scandal. 30 years. There should be assigning any well run business on the wall of any well run business on the wall of any boardroom that says uncertainty. Because life is uncertainty. Business is uncertain, because of all the technological change. So actually you embrace that, you will commit stopped but the truth is, you know, if we take back control, then we can make those decisions. And lets just we can make those decisions. And letsjust remember, we can make those decisions. And lets just remember, less than 10 of uk businesses export to the european union. The business that i run at the moment is a uk based business, but i run a £1 billion multinational stock market listed company. I tripled the share price infour company. I tripled the share price in four years. So i know how this sort of stuff works. So basically you wont be affected. sort of stuff works. So basically you wont be affected. I wont be affected at all. Great, so you can ta ke affected at all. Great, so you can take the risk with everyone elses business. But remember, thats 90 of business. But remember, thats 9096 of the uk business community. Why should they be burdened with the rules and regulations determined in brussels that affect their day to day lives . They shouldnt be. And lets remember, yes, of course, if you export to a different country, you abide by their rules and regulations. Why should our own domestic businesses that are only operating to mystically, why should we suffer that increasing cost . We shouldnt. Theres been some concern that the brexit party is not being run ina that the brexit party is not being run in a very businesslike way. In the property business, for example, you presumably know where your money comes from. You have to know where your money comes from. You dont in the brexit party. Thats complete nonsense. Really . In fact, the opposite is true. We have been running ina opposite is true. We have been running in a very businesslike way. We are like a fast growing tech start up. That is why we have managed to achieve in a matter of six weeks what most Political Parties would achieve in a matter of yea rs. Parties would achieve in a matter of years. That doesnt answer our question. We running it in an executive, fast moving, fast Decision Making capacity. We know where our money is coming from, because we have got a series of processes in place, and the electrical Electoral Commission have been in not once, but twice, within the space of nine days, to check that out. And in the middle of june they said that you needed to get your act together. They said you needed to change your Online System for accepting payments, to require donors to give their full Contact Details while only accepting payment from cards with matching billing and trade details. I know that if i dont provide that information i cant provide most cant buy most things. Is a couple of things here. They made a specific recommendation that was fundamentally flawed. They made a very important one. They wa nted made a very important one. They wanted us to lift that we self impose a £500. 0k, which means that because anything below £500 is not a donation, it is a gift. And therefore you dont need to identify it. Dont you need to know who those people are . Daly we do know who those people are. But how do you know if they dont give their information . Because they are registered supporters, they have signed up, they have paid the £25. So you have their information, you have their addresses . so you have their information, you have their addresses . I am answering it. Do you know who these people are . Do you have their names and addresses . Yes, we do. They have signed up, the sort of information that has been spouted by various people, commentators, is nonsense. In the Electoral Commission came in at one hours notice because gordon brown wrote them a letter and politically interfered in the middle ofan politically interfered in the middle of an election. I am sure you will be delighted to he will be delighted to know he has had such an impression. We are very happy to accept recommendations. I am a businessman. So why dont you accept the £500 recommendation . The one to lift the limit . I actually think they have deliberately suggested it to make it more likely that we breach the rules. We impose that, i have already written to them and said were not going to take their recommendation because it is fundamentally flawed. We put that in place, which means we are much less likely to breach regulations. Let me point to what the commission said, in particular the structure the party has adopted, coupled with insufficient procedures, leaves it exposed to a high and ongoing risk of receiving and accepting impermissible donations and being unable to maintain accurate records of transactions. And the reason they think about this £500 question is very simple. You dont know, and we as. Hang on, we as members of the public dont know, whether somebody might in order not to. In order to preserve their anonymity, they might make a series of donations which are in excess of £500. It could be a lot more, and they can make it as a series of individual donations. We have no way of knowing it. Again, if you just ask me, we have a process to spot that. You have a process, but you cant make it accountable to anyone else. Yes we can, and we showed the Electoral Commission. We have a process for checking that, and at the end of the day lets remember its our responsibility, no one elses. It is our response ability. We have a process, it is being carried out and the suggestion to lift that is fundamentally flawed and we have rejected it. Let me ask you about the message of the party. You have described it as simple and clear. The messages essentially, is it not, that the establishment has betrayed the public, and is in danger, is at risk, of betraying brexit. Well, its incredible, isnt it . Its three years and a day, as we record this programme, since we voted to leave the european union. And yet we have not left. You know, we have been promised by all sorts of people, the Prime Minister over 100 times in the house of commons, that we would be leaving on 29 march. We havent. It may or may not be 31 october. March. We havent. It may or may not be 310ctober. 0ur suspicion is that it wont be. And we were promised, the people were promised, that their vote counted, that parliament was outsourcing this decision to the people, and they would carry out this decision, and it was a once in a generation decision. And yet now, actually, they are trying to say no, it is pa rliaments actually, they are trying to say no, it is parliaments decision. Were not going to leave without a no deal. Lets just remember, parliament voted twice, when it agreed to article 50, with or without a deal. This was the process of triggering it. They it enacted the bill last summer, what was called the european withdrawal act. Again, it voted to leave on 29 march weather without a deal. So why have mps suddenly bottled it, wimped out and said it is all a bit too scary . Why didnt they get ready, why didnt they prepare, so actually we could leave on 29 march . In the words of your leader writing back in april in a british newspaper, they arrogantly stuck two fingers up to the electorate and done Everything Possible to thwart the result. The sheer scale of their betrayal of the country is difficult to grasp in the light of this. The best option open to brexit he has is to punish both establishment parties, which is what happened in European Parliament elections brexiteers. Lets assume brexit happens as you hope it will happen. At some point there has to be some process of bringing the country back together again. If this rhetoric continues to be deployed, how is that going to increase the chances of that happening . Well, because we havent left. The best way of bringing the country back together. And lets remember, actually, the truth is the country is always divided on politics. Youve always got different parties with different views. But this is a historically seismic moment. Doesnt that create a responsibility on politicians to be very careful about the language they use . Absolutely, yes, and the responsibility is to abide by the will of the people. Because that is the foundation of democracy. In the moment you breach that, then it is a very slippery slope. But yes, therefore, the sooner we leave, the sooner the will of the people is carried out, and we can then run our own country. Great, and then actually you start to bring us and then actually you start to bring us back together again. And i say to people, listen, if you want to have a review of the decision, ten, 15, 20 years down the track, fine. But youve got to leave first. How long we re youve got to leave first. How long were you in the conservative party . How long would you say you were a conservative four . Essentially ive only ever been a member of the conservative party. There were a few yea rs conservative party. There were a few years when i left it because i had a disagreement with some of the policies of david cameron, but otherwise ive been a memberfor a couple of decades or so. You know, i believe in free markets, i believe in the role of the individual. So yes, i consider myself always a conservative minded type person. Borisjohnson, the conservative minded type person. Boris johnson, the front conservative minded type person. Borisjohnson, the front runner in the contest to succeed theresa may as leader and therefore to become Prime Minister says he also wants brexit by 31 october. If he wins, youve got your way, havent you . Wont it be time to go home . Well, at the end of the day, lets see what happens, shall we . But the clear message that we are getting is that people have lost confidence in the two main parties. And whats really changing now is that its not a matter of being on the left or the right. Actually its much more of a cultural thing. Are you a cautious, slightly managerial, risk averse remainer type, or are you actually an ambitious, optimistic, risk taker. There you go again, cannot be people who want to stay in the uk. Yes, it is a generalisation, but people generalise when you talk about left and right. I think things are changing, and we say actually it isa are changing, and we say actually it is a matter of right and wrong. Right and wrong, you see, it is the language, isnt it . Them and us. It is tribal. How is that going to bring people together again . As i say, people always disagree on politics. Thats the joy of it. You have a vote and you carry on that vote. Since there is, as we stand at the moment, who knows what events may result, but he is likely to become british Prime Minister in a months time, i mean, is he on the right place all the wrong place at the moment . Well, i think to be honest it is hard to know, because he does flip flop around. He did write all sorts of positive things about the Withdrawal Agreement that theresa mays negotiated was a terrible deal, he described it as a vassal state we would become, and then he flip flopped and voted for it. I mean, you know, what sort of confidence and trust have you got in someone confidence and trust have you got in someone that is prepared to sell our country down the river at the third time of asking . But are you as a party in any kinds of discussions with the conservatives or with conservatives about the possibility of some kind of electoral solution . Why would we be . At the end of the day we have just won by a landslide the last national election. But they could be a labour government, so you might want to prevent that coming about. Give or take, we are topping the national polls, and we will be coming out this sunday, over 5000 people, with boris and mr hunt, the other candidate, they could only get about 700 or 800. Weve got a big rally. We are calling it the big vision rally. We will be announcing a policy is moving forwards, way we think actually there is so much more ambition, optimism, that we can offer the country. Lets talk about damir dzumhur. Optimism. In the event that no deal is secured, there will be tariffs, goods to make British Goods more expensive for europeans to purchase. You accept that . 0nly expensive for europeans to purchase. You accept that . Only if we want to impose them. Why would we . It is our choice to the great thing is it is our choice. That it is not our choice. You mentioned at the start of the interview the wto rules and those rules are clear, arent they about what happens in the case of there not being an arrangement between the uk, then the tariff rules must be applied consistently. If we chose not to apply tariffs to people who are buying our goods that would have to apply to every single one of the wto members. But isnt that great . Where there were goods and Agricultural Products that we do not grow, of course we would want to reduce those. Why should we prop up spanish Orange Growers when we can ta ke spanish Orange Growers when we can take them tariff free from elsewhere in the world . These are the opportunities, to reduce tariffs to zero or a much lower level that will reduce zero or a much lower level that will red u ce cost zero or a much lower level that will reduce cost for our consumers. Zero or a much lower level that will reduce cost for our consumersm zero or a much lower level that will reduce cost for our consumers. It is a seductive picture but there are two problems. Firstly, the european union. When they said under the wto rules, would you think are ok or better than the eu ones, the eu would be faced with the prospect of u nless would be faced with the prospect of unless it imposes tariffs it would have to abandon all tariffs it applies to other countries. 0n have to abandon all tariffs it applies to other countries. On that basis, the logic will be that it will impose those tariffs and we dont want those tariffs. It would bea dont want those tariffs. It would be a farmer would be facing, what . 796 be a farmer would be facing, what . 7 tariff on beef, if it were exporting beef to the uk from the uk. 10 unfinished automotive vehicles. Those are practical things that would come in immediately we left without a deal, assuming we did. If they decide to impose them. This is what negotiation is. The reality is we negotiated the terrible deal. Lets be clear. This current government have tried and failed. So we are saying that our best negotiating position, bearing in mind that the eu exported almost 100 billion more to us than we do them, so they would suffer much more if tariffs were imposed, we have the choice. As to what tariffs we do or do not impose. And, yes, people may purchase a few more cars produced in the uk for use in the uk and we may eat a bit more of the food that we produce in the uk. Things will change. But life changes. People will adapt, i accept that. You said yourself that your own business is not faced with exposure. What about people with business that depends on the straight and they suddenly find that their goods have been priced out of competitiveness . They either absorb the costs because the swedish person buying automotive pro art says they are hard businessmen. I dont know any farmers who could absorb a5 70 . Dont know any farmers who could absorb 4596 7096. People forget that three years ago, our exporters got a 1012 cut three years ago, our exporters got a 10 12 cut because of the movement in the exchange rate. Medics increase their profit. What have they done with that . They have been better off for the last three years and you think that is a good thing, presumably . They have had a serious leg up. So jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, just plain bread today . That is the nature of business. But our government to make its own decisions. We can help exporters to reduce attacks or change allowances, it is our choice and we are in control and that is how it should be. To reduce the tax. Control and that is how it should be. To reduce the tax. But it will depend on negotiation and i wonder if you appreciate how much how little time is left. I am well aware of how little time is left. But the reality is that businesses had three years now to get ready. I have been in involved in business. You dont just have have been in involved in business. You dontjust have plan a, you have bland bc and d. Business should have been ready but the only thing you could guarantee with the wto deal. That is what all business should have been getting run for ready for. And a smartly run ones have been doing that. Tell me about your policy and where you stand on this. Ido policy and where you stand on this. I do wish we had longer, but we do not. On this question of the wto rules im not. On this question of the wto rules i m baffled not. On this question of the wto rules im baffled by the number of people in occluding the people involved with Nigel Farages party uses there is no need to worry about the rules because we can get a deal. As you say, the eu would not be daft enough to impose tariffs but you also acknowledge that because of the pressure of other countries it may end up doing just that. People start to say that we can rely on article 24, to say that we can rely on article 2a, meaning we do not have to do ta riffs 2a, meaning we do not have to do tariffs because they will be a gentleman s agreement. And then we discovered that that will not apply in this situation. Let me stop you there. I have not to stop you there because article 2a can apply. I went over to geneva in january because article 2a can apply. I went over to geneva injanuary to meet senior people from the wto who said quite clearly that article 2a is a very suitable solution for this situation. Who . A very senior person in the wto. You asked me the question i want to answer it. What happens is that both sides get together and say, right, we dont wa nt together and say, right, we dont want tariffs, no quotas and you reach an interim arrangement while you basically spend one or two years dotting the eyes and crossing the tees. That is available, regrettably our government have refused to consider it and not yet done it. That is why we asked the government to come in, to look at the nodal preparations and to recommend this process. And then it is a straightforward matter of negotiating it between the two sides. And you have already got the political declaration. Senior people at the wto confirmed to me that it would be relatively easy to convert the political declaration that is either terms, into article 24. thatis either terms, into article 24. that is what the eu wants to do. But Michel Barnier said no future trade talks can begin until agreement is reached on citizens rights, relatively easy that one. The irish border which is pretty difficult. And the uk financial obligations which would also be controversial. In those circumstances there is no use talking about article 2a because it will not happen. You fall in. You for the classic negotiating trick. A leading person says that no deal means there is no agreement and therefore article 2a does not apply. It applies where there is a potential agreement. The best way to getan potential agreement. The best way to get an agreement is to at least ask for it and our clueless useless Civil Servants and feeble politicians have failed to ask for it and it is a disgrace that make disgrace. Sir ivan roberts. You can respond to this. He said deliberately to walk out of the deepest internal market on the planet without a replacement use of preferential deal in places and active economic lunacy. No deal is not a destination, it is a volatile and transitional state in which you give all leverage to the other side. He is completely wrong and tha nkfully he is completely wrong and thankfully he is no longer in that position. He is wrong because he believed the other side and is not prepared to bat for britain. And thatis prepared to bat for britain. And that is why you need Business People to come in and do these negotiations because these Civil Servants have shown themselves to be out of their depth. If you do what has been suggested, lets say whether it is borisjohnson or suggested, lets say whether it is Boris Johnson or he suggested, lets say whether it is borisjohnson or he may invite nigel farage and you to come along. We have offered. And 5 Million People, 5. 25 have offered. And 5 Million People, 5. 2 5 Million People have voted for us 5. 2 5 Million People have voted for us to dojust 5. 2 5 Million People have voted for us to do just that. That was one of our three things. You are right, that was one of your things. If we are abandoning tariffs and you say there is a perfectly good economic case to do that, whereas our leveraging any future negotiation over a tree deal was to mark we have already opened ourselves up. Come on in. Isaid already opened ourselves up. Come on in. I said it is our choice to so we can work out what we will reduce because that keeps negotiating leverage to if we dont grow oranges in this country, why do we want to put tariffs on oranges that are coming in . We do make cars in this country and it is not right, for example, that attempts and tariff is charged on us cars coming into the uk but they only charge of 2. 5 . It would be easy to do a partial trade deal with the us on items like that. You spoke about the item risk of and the value of risk. How much risk is acceptable . What would you be co mforta ble is acceptable . What would you be comfortable with . I dont see it as a risk at all. Because we left it too late. We got back control of our economy, we do not need to waste 39 billion quid of our money sending it to brussels when no one else pays free trade deal. Canada did not pay for a trade deal with europe. Why should we . We do not owe them anything in the house of lords report confirms that the alt useless and weak Civil Service negotiations have unnecessarily agreed to with so richard tice, thank you for being with us on hardtalk. Hello. The heat and the humidity have been rising over recent days and that is bringing us the fuel for some heavy showers and some thunderstorms as well. 00 25 48,969 2147483051 49 39,199 as we head through 2147483051 49 39,199 00 00 00,086 the day on tuesday,