Transcripts For BBCNEWS Afternoon Live 20180131

Here we can barely say it. Pierre emerick aubameyang, there you 90, Pierre Emerick aubameyang, there you go, youve given it to me, its contagious, signed for arsenal £456 million, good news for them, contagious, signed for arsenal £456 million, good news forthem, much more to come later on. Lets hope it goes better than. Will explain more about the supermoon, what makes a super, whats the difference between a normal moon and a supermoon and look at snow in the uk but there are other stories around the world as well, snowfall in morocco, a place that you might not expect it and also some attention if leading rein in new zealand coming up. Thank you ramesh, chris. Also coming up hello the killer whale thats astounded scientists by learning to speak human words through its blowhole. Wikie a 16 year old captive orca living in a marine theme park mimicks words such as hello and can count to three. To those of you tweeting that whale does a lot better than we do, dont bother, we know. Hello everyone this is afternoon live. Theres always a risk in going away at the wrong time being thousands of miles away when theres trouble back home. But theresa may has tackled her critics head on during her trip to china. She responded to questions about her future as Prime Minister, saying im not a quitter. She added theres a long term job to be done. Back home, the government said it is willing to publish a controversial initial assessment of the impact brexit will have on the economy if mps vote to see it. Our correspondent robin brant reports from shanghai. A cheer and a smile. Who would have thought this was a Prime Minister on the rack . Theresa may has come to china to talk trade and first up in this city that means education. Good arguments on both sides. Uk schools and universities are here, english is the second most popular language in china. Prime minister, i welcome you. Nice to see you. But still there was no escaping the sense of a leadership crisis around every corner at home. Even before she landed, she had to address that talk of a leadership emergency on the plane over, telling journalists travelling with her. First and foremost i am serving my country and my party. I am not a quitter and there is a long term job to be done. In beijing later, alongside her chinese counterpart, li keqiang. She admitted she needs to improve. Yes, we do need to do more and we do need to ensure that we are talking about what we have already achieved to those young people who worry about whether they will get their own home, to those parents who are concerned about the education their children will be getting. The Prime Minister pledged to intensify what both sides say is a golden era in relations. But china is concerned about the instability caused by brexit. Still, its premiere tried to offer words of reassurance. Translation for a long time, our relationship has been constantly developing. Our bilateral relationships will not alter between the uk and the eu. We will assess and held talks about our future trading relationship. This is day one of a three day visit which is focused on deeper trade ties. She said £9 billion worth of deals will be agreed. But china is only the worlds eighth biggest export market. She has reservations as well, she has warned china it has to respect the rule book on International Trade and ensure there are safeguards in place if it wants britain to invest alongside it. When Prime Ministers go abroad they are often pursued by the main story back home and that is very much the case for theresa may. She wants you to see a leader working hard for her country abroad. You are supposed to see asias tallest building behind me today. But neither of those things are happening, both are obscured by a haze, a haze that shows no of lifting. Two former heads of British Intelligence have warned that britain will need to secure a deal to share data with the rest of europe after it leaves the eu, or face serious problems. Robert hannigan and sirjohn sawers also argue it would be a mistake for britain to try to use its strong position in intelligence as a bargaining chip in the exit negotiations. With 14 months to go until brexit, throughout the day on bbc news were focussing on the potential impact on security. Our Home Affairs Correspondent june kelly reports. At heathrow, like all uk airports, british and european travellers with their burgundy eu passports go through the same channel. But for security and immigration reasons, might this be different once the uk leaves the eu . Post brexit, we could see changes when we come through places like this. The government has not yet shared its position on what would happen at ports and airports. But when it comes to keeping the country safe, it has set out its views on big issues like security, Law Enforcement and criminaljustice. These uk raids were part of a typical european operation targeting a suspected people smuggling gang. There were also arrests in belgium and bulgaria. The uk is a leading member of europol, europes Law Enforcement agency. When britain exits the eu, it will have to give up its membership. Ministers say they want to negotiate a deal which will allow the uk to keep working closely with europol, but is this a realistic option . We have not had a member state leave the eu before so in that sense we are already in uncharted waters. Every day there is a Police Operation here affecting britain in a positive way that europol is helping with. The essence of that i think will continue, but it depends on getting the right deal. The uk and eu countries share information on criminal records, fingerprints and dna, on tracking suspects across borders. And Member States are also signed up to the european arrest warrant. The british authorities have used the arrest warrant to have wanted people sent back to the uk from other parts of europe. Hussain osman, one of the failed 21 7 bombers is one of the scores of suspects extradited to the uk to stand trial. Britain has sent back thousands more the other way. The uk says it wants to keep the arrest warrant system and continue to share data as part of a new security treaty with the eu. We set out our stall back in september and said this is what we wanted to do. The European Council have formally said they are open to negotiating this type of partnership which matters. But also the informal conversations we have had with individual Member States made it clear to us that our partners in europe are keen for this kind of cooperation to continue. Away from Law Enforcement, on the intelligence front, the uk will need to secure a deal to share data with europe or it could face serious problems. This warning comes from former intelligence chiefs. Most of the security related provisions agreed at the European Union level have been driven by the uk. We will no longer be in the room to shape the rules and regulations governing data sharing and data privacy to ensure that National Security concerns are given the right, appropriate, high priority. Britain is quitting the eu, it is not leaving europe, this is the mantra from ministers. With security, the ambition is to retain the status quo, but this will depend on our current european partners. We know that talks with the eu are dealing with issues such as british membership of europol the European Police agency and the european arrest warrant. But there are other aspects of security co operation which need to be taken into account, as chris morris from bbc reality check explains. It is worth making one thing clear at the start. No one on either side of the channel wants the security relationship to be worse as a result of brexit. There are technical and legal restraints on what uk can do after leaving the eu. Membership of the eu gives the uk access to all these shared databases on criminal records, fingerprints and so on, and we will focus on one, the schengen information system. Known as sis ii for short. What it does is allow participating countries to share alerts on Law Enforcement in real time, meaning that when anyone gets checked anywhere other countries know about it straightaway. It could be people with warrants issued against them, defendants absconding from court, stolen cars or people who are under surveillance. It is, everyone involved in security agrees, incredibly useful, but under current rules you can only be part of it if you are in the eu or in the Schengen Area which allows passport free travel. What are the options . The uk basically wants access to everything it has at the moment, europol, the arrest warrant and all those eu databases. It wants the new security treaty that will create a unique partnership with the eu, of a kind that does not exist at the moment for any other country. But the eu insists you cannot be in some of its institutions and not in others. To have a relationship as close as the current one, for example. It says the uk would have to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court ofjustice on disputes over data or privacy, as well as any dispute about the way the system functions. From an eu side, because we know the eu isa from an eu side, because we know the eu is a very legalistic organisation, it would be difficult to get them to shift from a position, that ultimately, if only indirectly the European Court of justice must play some role, it might be dressed up by having a joint committee under the aegis of the eu but we might not be able to escape the court if we want the same access to that data as we have now. For all sides of the choices are looming. Can the current red lines be overcome in the interest of shared security . Chris morris there. President trump used his first state of the union addressed to call on republicans and democrats to Work Together to rebuild American Industries and fixed the countrys immigration system. He said hed advanced his mission to make America Great again, with record tax cuts, and a fall in unemployment. But democrats say he has left the nation fractured. David willis reports from washington. Mr president , what is the state of the union . The man who spoke just one year ago of american carnage was more upbeat tonight. Mr speaker, the president of the United States. Taking a moment to pat himself on the back for the booming economy, the president called on all americans to set aside their differences and seek out common ground. This, in fact, is our new american moment. There has never been a better time to start living the american dream. Bipartisan compromise has been in short supply here during a turbulent first year in office, and the president hopes to build bridges by repairing them. He pledged to overhaul the countrys ageing infrastructure. And calling on the parents of two teenage girls who were murdered by gang members in the country illegally, the president turned to the thorny issue of immigration reform. He is offering a path to citizenship for some Illegal Immigrants who came here as children in return for tougher border controls. So lets come together, set politics aside, and finally get the job done. The United States was winning the war against islamic state, the president said, but all too often terrorists had been captured and then released. Reversing the policy of his predecessor, he pledged to keep the military prison at Guantanamo Bay open. He focused as well on the Nuclear Threat posed by north korea, singling out a man who travelled thousands of miles on crutches to defect. There was no word of the russian investigation, that was left to the democrats in their response. A rising star in the party with a famous last name, taking the administration to task. A government that struggles to keep itself open, russia knee deep in our democracy. This first year in office has been a tale of two trumps. There is teleprompter trump and twitter trump. Going into the second year, the president and his party need more of the former and less of the latter. Not only to push through his controversial legislative agenda, but in order to maintain their majority in congress. David willis, bbc news, washington. We are going to take you to parliament where the house of commons Digital Media and Sport Committee is about to hear evidence regarding the bbc. First up is Carrie Gracie left her post as china editor earlier this month. The chair is introducing her alongside Carrie Gracie, Michelle Stanistreet of the nuj. I would like to make a declaration of interest in behalf of the members of interest in behalf of the members of the committee who have previously worked for the bbc and as a consequence of that received some are entitled to benefits and payments relating to programmes they have participated in and the declaration applies to the rebecca pow, giles watling, Julian Knight and brendan ohara. We would like to now start the questioning. I wondered if i could start and ask Carrie Gracie for the benefit of the committee, although a lot of what we will discuss this afternoon will relate to the concerns you have raised and the grievance procedure you have entered into, but perhaps you have entered into, but perhaps you could tell the committee a bit about your appointment as the china editor following a long and distinguished career at the bbc, the reasons you accepted that post and why the bbc appointed you to it. Thank you. I was appointed china editor at the end of 2013 and i went to china in early 2014, so i was the china editor of the four years, and at the time the director of news felt that china was an undercover story a great big chunk of history that it was quite difficult to get across in daily news agendas and iiews across in daily news agendas and news bulletins and it needed a more strategic approach. I had myself. Well, my First Experience in china was in 1985 as a teacher but i joined the bbc in 19 eight d7 and i we nt joined the bbc in 19 eight d7 and i went to beijing as a correspondent for the bbc in the early 90s, 1991 for the bbc in the early 90s,1991 1987. I had for the bbc in the early 90s,1991 1987. I had a long experience of reporting on china because even when i was back here as a percent of the news channel i would go to china every year to report. I speak mandarin and have a chinese degree as well as two other academic qualifications. I have a long experience of a country that is going through enormous change, which we all know, the Prime Minister obviously being there today is a matter of great concern for all of us. Matter of great concern for all of us. China affects our lives in so many ways. So my appointment took place at the end of 2013 and i went out in 2014. There were a couple of major considerations i had in taking the job. It was not a great time for my children, they were embarking on a levels, and i was concerned about that, the bbc left the appointment too late for me and i had resisted doing the job because i thought it wasnt the right time for my children. But james did what he described on a James Harding, im talking about, the former director of news, did what he called getting down on bended knee to persuade me to go. I agreed with him that we needed to get more women into senior reporting posts, if you remember the context, this was quite shortly after the miriam 0reilly tribunal case where she won against the bbc oii case where she won against the bbc ona claim case where she won against the bbc on a claim of age discrimination. The bbc was very concerned in the aftermath of that to put more senior women 011 aftermath of that to put more senior women on airand aftermath of that to put more senior women on air and older women. I was just turned over 50 at the time, so that was something they wanted to do andl that was something they wanted to do and i could see their point, i thought we did need more women on airand we thought we did need more women on air and we needed in more senior roles and older women on air in senior roles. Despite my concern about the children and, i did the leaning to work and why my ex husband did the lean into family thing for the first time, so that was quite high risk as a family, because they were at the point of a levels. It involved sacrifices and it was a very difficult job, as ive described in my open letter, china comes with some challenges. Its obviously so big, you have to operate in chinese, its 176 obviously so big, you have to operate in chinese, its176 out of 180 in the World Press Freedom index, it is very hard to persuade people to talk to you in china, especially on sensitive issues and very difficult to get the attention of our editors to put it into bulletins because they have always got something more pressing that President Trump said, or that is happening with brexit, or westminster, so it is a difficult story to tell. But i feel i told it well and story to tell. But i feel i told it welland im story to tell. But i feel i told it well and im proud of what i did. Story to tell. But i feel i told it welland im proud of what i did. I suppose the last thing i should say about the time of my appointment, which in a way is one of the reasons i find myself before you now, is that i said at the time that i had to be paid equally. I knew, as did many other women in the bbc, that we had been underpaid by comparison to male peers. Not absolutely, because we all feel that we are privileged to work with the bbc, but its a Public Service broadcaster, and im proud to have served 30 years at the bbc. But we knew there was inequality. We didnt know the details because the bbcs extremely secretive on page but we knew we we re secretive on page but we knew we were underpaid and i was determined at this point where i knew i would get the china job, every last ounce of my skill and stamina, i knew i would do myjob at least as well as any man and there was no man. Frankly there was no other candidate for the job at the time, which is whyjames did for the job at the time, which is why james did the for the job at the time, which is whyjames did the getting down on bended knee thing, but i insisted on equal pay and i thought i had won a commitment to pay parity when i set off to china which is why i got such a shock lastjuly off to china which is why i got such a shock last july when off to china which is why i got such a shock lastjuly when i discovered that two men as International Editors were being paid 50 more at least than the winning International Editors. I want to ask a few further questions about this points. You said you speak mandarin are there many senior news journalists at the bbc that speak mandarin . No, i cant really think of any who have that kind of experience on china, who speak chinese. We have one or two younger people who speak quite good chinese. I really cant think of anyone who has the broadcast skills and the editorial capacity, with the bbc can trust to carry the china story first four years in the face of enormous pressures of censorship, frankly. So, ithink of enormous pressures of censorship, frankly. So, i think probably other timel frankly. So, i think probably other time i almost was the only candidate. I can think of one other who probably would have been a point about and i tried to suggest that to the director of news because i was worried about my children but he wasnt having any of it and said it had to be me who went. I really, really cared about the china story, i felt it needed to be told. More comprehensive read more strategically on the bbc. It sounds not only is the James Harding wanted you to do the job but you were uniquely qualified to do it in terms of your knowledge of the country, your Language Skills and broadcast experience. I think thats probably fair. I dont want to boast but i think thats probably fair, certainly since then the bbc has repeatedly said it would be hard to replicate me in china and always tried to persuade me to stay as long asi tried to persuade me to stay as long as i possibly can. The current head of news gathering said i would be happy if you stayed for life. The reason i ask is without wishing to pick on anyone other part of the world, i can imagine the number of people in bbc news qualified to go to washington is quite extensive, lots of people would have reported from there before, and obviously largely speaking the language barrier is not an issue and many people would already be pretty immersed in transatlantic politics as well. Well, there is a couple of things i would say about that. Beastly it is a part of the world with which many more bbcjournalists are familiar. At the bbc failed to invest in china skills, i would say, and im disappointed. Ive invested in chinese skills for years, and one of the things about my current paid situation is the bbc doesnt appear to put much value on those prior to me going to china in terms of pay. However, that is a separate question. 0ne however, that is a separate question. One of the things that has made me sad over the past three weeks since i wrote my open letter is the tendency in some sections of the media for this to turn into a kind of comparison to dermot between me and the north american or middle eastern editor and i suppose there is an inevitability about that happening because you cant talk about equal pay by what the law calls comparators but id like to put on record that i admire the work of my male peers as International Editors, iadmire of my male peers as International Editors, i admire the work ofjon sopel and jeremy bowen. Ive editors, i admire the work ofjon sopelandjeremy bowen. Ive been proud to stand alongside them as an International Editor for the bbc for four years. Other people kind of save china desk in north america is on the ten oclock news more often, you know, other people in the china can say everyone speaks north american. I dont want to get into that fight, frankly. What i want to talk about more is the sense in which my case isjust talk about more is the sense in which my case is just an example talk about more is the sense in which my case isjust an example of the bigger problem, but its a useful example because i was a senior person who the bbc really wanted to keep in position and yet even at the point where this arose, and the six months, ive been trying to get the bbc to take my equality issue seriously, and it hasnt been possible for that to be resolved in the way that i feel is in accordance with the lawful stop so if the bbc cant sort it out for me, a senior person at 55 in a powerful position, how can it sort it out for more Vulnerable People who dont have a public profile . Vulnerable people who dont have a public profile . Thats my concern and thats the only reason that im really prepared to talk about my case. Finally before i bring in some colleagues, you said you were very clear with James Harding you expected equal pay if you took the position . I just expected equal pay if you took the position . Ijust want expected equal pay if you took the position . I just want to clarify that the pay conversation happened with the then head of news gathering which was fans love, not with the director of news on the James Harding. Thank you for that. In terms of equal pay, did that mean equal pay with the other International Editors, was that the group you expected equal pay with . At the time i set off i was told that i was roughly in line with the north american editor and europe editor and what happened subsequently is in the same year i we nt subsequently is in the same year i went to china the bbc appointed a new north american editor and a new europe editor, the north america editor earned much more and the europe editor and about the same as me and she has given me permission to say that. At that time before the middle east editor had been the highest paid but when the new north american editor took up his post, i guess, i discovered injuly, i didnt know any of this before july. But i guess he must have just been paid a lot more because certainly he is now in a much higher than than the others. Anyway, then you get a situation where you have two men high and two women love. So. Am i right in saying that roughly speaking its not just right in saying that roughly speaking its notjust there is a bit of disparity between pay within that band of International Editor, the north american editor was paid maybe nearly double what you were being paid . Possibly. These bands, we fumble around in the dark in the bbc, we have no information, the only information is what you manage to through your work to push the bbc on being a fraction able more transparent on pay. Youve got transparency down in £50,000 bands from 150. So, you know, obviously jon is in the 200 250 band. Its interesting, and i dont know if this is the right moment to say, but i got my grievance outcome finally la st i got my grievance outcome finally last week on day 89 of 90 that the bbc allows itself for grievances. The bbc previously said it would exabyte my the bbc previously said it would exa byte my grievance the bbc previously said it would exabyte my grievance because of the china damage and expedite my grievance. I kept saying they were hoping to deliver it before christmas, and then very early in january, but then in the end it was day 89 of 90, which that is expediting at the bbc. However, leaving point aside, the outcome is releva nt leaving point aside, the outcome is relevant to the question you are asking the because the bbc has said that it inadvertently underpaid me since 2014, since that point at which it appointed the north america editor, who is currently in position. So, the bbc has now said not only does it want to pay me an extra £45,000 for the Financial Year of 2017, but it wants to pay me more for 2014, 2015, 2016, and it was inadvertent that it left me off when it raised other pay in april 2017. I have said i dont want that money. Thats not what its about for me. I feel my salary is a good salary, its public money, thats not what it was about. They are still not giving me equality, they are not giving the parity and they are not giving me the benchmarks which would allow me tojudge that its a robust pay syste m tojudge that its a robust pay system so that it counts as equal pay, even if its not pay parity. I know this sounds like Employment Law language but thats what we had to get into. So, as ive said all along to them, if they show robust data and robust benchmarks on why they wa nt and robust benchmarks on why they want to pay the meant more than me, which is based want to do throughout, that would be ok but they have not given me any of that even now. Inadvertently, that is the word used in the report you have seen from them . Yeah. Correct . So, basically they have upheld all of the complaints you made, effectively, about the fact you were being underpaid and that you deserved not just. Being underpaid and that you deserved notjust. No, being underpaid and that you deserved notjust. No, they havent actually. They have said it was not gender pay discrimination. They have not called it pay discrimination either. To me it sounds like, im not an Employment Lawyer, but it sounds like a tacit admission that it is pay discrimination, in that they want to pay me now nearly £100,000 in back p5y~ pay me now nearly £100,000 in back pay. But the thing thats very u na cce pta ble pay. But the thing thats very unacceptable to me, and ijust dont know why they do this, is they have basically said that in those three previous years, 2014, 2015 and 2016 i was previous years, 2014, 2015 and 2016 iwas in previous years, 2014, 2015 and 2016 i was in development. Laughter its an insult to add to the original injury. It is unacceptable to speak to your senior women like that. I would to speak to your senior women like that. Iwould never to speak to your senior women like that. I would never have gone to china on those terms. I asked for equal pay at the very beginning. The idea i would agree to being sent to china in development. When the director of news, when we went, when we we re director of news, when we went, when we were coming back from meeting the Chinese Ambassador and were walking back down portland place, he said, you are it, youre in charge, iwill have your back. I was the four years leading out china coverage. There are significant risks in china cove rage. Are significant risks in china coverage. I dealt with, i did a good job, twice ive had an award for journalist of the year. Im getting emotional, but. The thing is, what i really want to say about this equal pay problem at the bbc is what it forces the bbc to do is to retrofit. Defences, justifications of the indefensible. It is not a cce pta ble of the indefensible. It is not acceptable to say that because you have an equal pay problem but you cant admit it because you dont wa nt cant admit it because you dont want to confront what may be fiscal liabilities, which we all agree are there. I am not a fiscal liability. I have said i dont want any more money. Im not a fiscal liability to the bbc. They are trying to throw money at me to resolve the problem. This will not resolve my problem. My problem will be resolved by acknowledgement that my work was of an equal value to the men who i served alongside, as an International Editor. An apology would be nice. I note that the bbc is saying it is very grateful to men, lastly, last friday, taking a volu nta ry men, lastly, last friday, taking a voluntary pay cut. Theyve never said they are very grateful to me for not taking a pay rise at the time and they said at that point, i have the quote somewhere, these are great journalist to have a great connection with the public. I have 500 and more e mails from the public here, in support of me, in support of my work as a china editor and in support of my stand on equal pay. And i have more than 300 e mails from member of staff who support that as well. So, some day it would be nice if the bbc could bring itself to say that the women also are good broadcasters and journalists. But because it is in this terrible position of not being willing to acknowledge an equal pay problem in relation to women, its effectively forced to belittle our contribution. Notjust this effectively forced to belittle our contribution. Not just this year, notjust last year, contribution. Not just this year, not just last year, but the decades. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you both for coming in. I think it is very important that we say thank you to you, carrie going on record. Its a very brave thing to do, however high profile journalist you are. It will benefit women much lower down the food chain in the bbc and other organisations. I think that is quite important to be said. I want to askjust a few things, because youve already highlighted a whole load of things we can ask the next panel, but particularly around this conversation with ainsworth, about when you asked about equal pay or pay parity, or whatever the terms were. Pay parity, or whatever the terms were. Can you tell us a little more about that conversation, please . So this is the meeting at which we decided whether i went to china or not on the terms. I had basically already agreed that i would. There was a discussion about how many days i would be in china a year, because i was worried about my children and my children, my daughter had had to move to school for sixth form. She wasnt able to be moved, it was too late to move her but she had already moved once and she was in her first term, first year of a levels. So there was first discussion about how many days i could do in china a year andl many days i could do in china a year and i agreed to do 200 days in china and i agreed to do 200 days in china a yearand the and i agreed to do 200 days in china a year and the rest i would in the uk, because theres a lot of china that can be done pre production and postproduction and i could do a lot of writing. Just for the record, because there seems to be some confusion about this in the media, i spent last year, 214 days in china andl spent last year, 214 days in china and i spent a further 14 days. When i say china, i mean the majority of that, about 200 were in the mainland of china and then another few days in hong kong and taiwan. I was there 214 days last year and taiwan. I was there 214 days last yearand i, and taiwan. I was there 214 days last year and i, and then taiwan. I was there 214 days last yearand i, and then i did taiwan. I was there 214 days last year and i, and then i did some work in kazakhstan and some work in poland last year and i did the rest in london. Anyway, coming to your question about the equal pay conversation with the then head of news gathering, current director of news. I guess gathering, current director of news. Iguess im gathering, current director of news. I guess im not a lawyer, so i went into that saying i think that ive been underpaid for, you know, a long time at the bbc. Not absolutely. I say that again, but in comparison with male peers. Did he comment on that . No. I said, with male peers. Did he comment on that . No. Isaid, i with male peers. Did he comment on that . No. I said, ithink ive been underpaid since probably 2000 when i started on the news channel, possibly longer, ijust started on the news channel, possibly longer, i just didnt started on the news channel, possibly longer, ijust didnt ask. We actually trusted the bbc, that is the problem. And we had no information. So we had trust and we had no information. Then, over several years on the news channel why began to realise that there was an issue of unequal pay and i didnt do anything about it. I was a single parent, single sole breadwinner and my daughter had had leukaemia and id had Breast Cancer twice and i had enough just getting id had Breast Cancer twice and i had enoughjust getting on with life. Ijust never argued about money with them, but i knew when i we nt money with them, but i knew when i went to china i was not prepared to let an unequal pay situation go on. Ive been reading the book lean in. I thought it was important that i do lean in. That is an older woman, with my children growing up, it was a perfect time for the kids but there was never going to be exactly there was never going to be exactly the right time, so either i had to lean on. Then the conversation, but i also knew, as was before, i ask equal pay. I dont want to go into the detail too much of that conversation. It was not a long conversation, it was four years ago. Im on the whole are pretty trusting person, if somebody tells me this is whats going to happen, and i think ive understood something about the situation, then i, then i take that on trust. Rob said, i demand to be paid equally, i dont think ive been paid equally in the past, i dont know because none of us know the details but i dont think so, i demand to be paid equally. What the director of news said was the north america editor and europe editor are getting about £120,000 will stop i said at that point, my children cant come with me and my son will have to go to state boarding school in this country because he will not go to an expensive private school in china, because it costs 25 £30,000 a yearand china, because it costs 25 £30,000 a year and just wouldnt do it. I was proposing about point to put him ina was proposing about point to put him in a state boarding school in the uk. That was going to cost £10,000. Sol uk. That was going to cost £10,000. So i said to be then head of news gathering, i will have to spend £10,000 on their school fees, a lot less than accommodation, health care, 25 £30,000 on school fees and flights to china. She said, ok, we will make up to 130. Sol flights to china. She said, ok, we will make up to 130. So i thought i was effectively getting equal pay at that point. In my grievance outcome, it says that fran does not recollect the conversation the same way that i do, or words to that effect. She will no doubt tell you. We will ask. Lam will no doubt tell you. We will ask. I am puzzled by that because when i had a paid negotiation with the current head of news gathering on the phone last year in october, said that was my first pay negotiation, i said this to the then head of news gathering and he said, and i quote exactly his words fran remembers the conversation as you do. Who said that . The current head of news gathering. I was surprised to read in my grievance outcome that fran didnt rememberthe in my grievance outcome that fran didnt remember the conversation as idid. Didnt remember the conversation as i did. Anyway, to be honest, we dont have a tape recording, so its kind of different peoples words against different peoples words on its four ago. At the end of the day its not at the heart of the problem, i dont think. I since learned that, because afterjulys pay disclosures, i then really had to overcome my inhibitions about asking my male peers about pay. I asked all relevant male peers in the past 20 years, about what they were earning, roughly, compared to what i was earning at the times who worked alongside each other. Some of them told me in some of them didnt. The then north american editor did tell me and he told me. Well, he told me and he told me. Well, he told me he was roughly on the pay that i started in china on. So he wasnt on 120, was on about 130. Right. I hope thatis 120, was on about 130. Right. I hope that is clear. Very helpful. I want to ask michelle a couple of brief things. I want to deduct the document, the written evidence you submitted to the committee, in. 14 you talk about. As part of the bbc led move to make presenters work on a freelance basis via a personal service company, its very concerning that many women were pressured into leaving staffjobs and told otherwise presenting why. That sounds to me like bullying. Can you tell us a bit more about the background to that, please . As part of this process, its been really alarming for me in speaking with many women who have come forward to talk about their situation and have their cases reviewed for equal pay. But actually, to me its notjust been about what their headline salary or fees have been any given time. Its been about the processes that have been in the place, which speak to me of really problematic culture about how many women journalists that the bbc have been treated, and to find out that actually so many seemingly to me anecdotally, a lot more women at a limited time were clearly told by the bbc, many of them were on staff contracts and had the protection and the benefits of staff contracts, and they were told very explicitly by they were told very explicitly by the bbc, and theres of evidence in writing, that if you wish to pursue your career as a presenter, then we expect you to leave that staff job and your relationship with the bbc in the future to be one of a freelance and operating through a personal service company. Many did this very unwillingly. They felt very coerced and pressured to do that, but when you are faced with that, but when you are faced with that or an option of not progressing your career in the way you wanted to happen, really its no choice at. So many women made that step very relu cta ntly. Many women made that step very reluctantly. What many of them have been shocked, horrified and angered to find out down the line is actually a lot of men kept their staff contracts, kept the benefits and perks associated with that and at the same time were also being paid more than them. There were different elements to the discriminate and it has had massive impact on people, because in that period of time, a significant period of time, people have had huge and security. They havent had sick pay to stop some of them have had a really serious illnesses and conditions, which has made them very difficult for them financially and professionally. Women have had babies several times over and have not benefited from any Maternity Leave or maternity pay and have faced compounded problems when theyve come back to work after having children. Ive been concerned about the way in which people returning from having, in some cases, very returning from having, in some cases, very short period of leave, Maternity Leave, they havent been treated as well as they should have been by the bbc and certainly not in comparison to those on staff contracts. All of those elements to me are bound up with the issues of the disparities in pay as well. Similarly, the way in which the bbc approached the process of renegotiating contracts, allowing people to deliberately allow contracts people to deliberately allow co ntra cts to people to deliberately allow contracts to lapse, so it meant people wouldnt renegotiate a position of no power, really, and under a lot of pressure. Did the trade union have a role in that negotiation, we dont have collective bargaining rights for those individuals. A lot of people left the bargaining unit and left their staff jobs left the bargaining unit and left their staffjobs and those protections, where they have the collective representation, and some degree of the structure of the bbc as it was. They left and there has been a bit of a wild west approach to pay and to who gets what in that process , to pay and to who gets what in that process, to the disadvantage of many women, i think. Process, to the disadvantage of many women, ithink. People process, to the disadvantage of many women, i think. People about, process, to the disadvantage of many women, ithink. People about, their contracts worth allowed to lapse, which weakened their negotiation conditions. Some had fees withheld to pressure signing new contracts. Practices which really have no place in any organisation, but particularly in a Public Service rod caster. One of the priorities in the process of engaging with the bbc at the moment, as the bbc will open up its consultation, as it needs to do with everybody affected, is to get those people who generally should have been on staff contracts that time and for all intents and purposes are real employees, they need to be an real staff contracts, not inferior, dilutive versions, with fewer benefits, in terms of terms and conditions and practices. We need to make sure the genuine freelance workers have contracts that are fit for purpose and really that are fit for purpose and really that hasnt happened. That has been a very significant source of concern for the union and i know how badly it has impacted on many of the people it has affected, men and women, but i think women have had a particularly worse and experience as a consequence of those practices. Finally, very briefly, the report that came out yesterday talks a lot about consultation. It mentions trade unions. Can you just elaborate to what involvement trade unions actually had in that . My understanding is there is only recognition procedures up a very low level, and then it seems to be a bit ofa level, and then it seems to be a bit of a free for all. What involvement have you actually had in this interim report that was published yesterday . The unions have recognition across staff unions the grades 2 11. People outside of that, we dont have any collective bargaining rights. When the high earners list was published in the summerand our earners list was published in the summer and our reactions in the union s is one of huge concern, about the lack of women, lack of ethnic minority faces in that list, we expressed real concerns about the bbcs Immediate Reaction to embark upon its equal pay audits and gender pay gap because it was doing it, deliberately excluding the population of staff where it was obvious from the publication of that report that there existed a real problem. All the guidance about disneys audits is dont segment the staff, do it as one piece of research and analysis. If you are going to segment the staff or the population, start with the area where you know to have a problem and then roll out from there. In fact, what it seemed to be doing with focus on the area of the business where it thought it would have a clea n where it thought it would have a clean bill of health. So our involvement and reaction to that had led to more discussions about what they were planning on the talent review, which they said would be coming down the line and would run to the end of 2017. We were saying as unions, its vital we are involved in that. There are significant issues we want to be pa rt significant issues we want to be part of coming up for solutions. The bbcs initial response was they try and let the unions to strip that they werent planning on us having any role in it whatsoever because we have no consultation rights. However, at the last, at a certain period of time, i think it was in october, the unions, discovered a significant chunk of our bargaining unit had been plucked out of our bargaining unitand unit had been plucked out of our bargaining unit and put into this review on which we knew nothing about, there had been no discussion about, there had been no discussion about, so we were understandably outraged and had a meeting about this. There was an agreement that from that point on the unions obviously would have to have a role, because we had members of our bargaining unit caught up in it. We have had a role but the union have been upfront about what we see as the inadequacies of the pay review work done last year and we have the same concerns now, in terms of the methodology and approach. So before we we re methodology and approach. So before we were involved, weve had regular meetings and its fair to say in all theissues meetings and its fair to say in all the issues weve been raising about the issues weve been raising about the unfair contracts, the way in which these have happened, the lack of framework and need for transparency and genuine engagement with all staff, everyone in the future, weve been pushing those issues. Wherever the bbc has got to now in terms of its framework and it may talk about that later, its in a much better, more transparent state thanit much better, more transparent state than it was in the first iteration. Others have been involved before us and their approach was agreed with the methodology. Like all of these reviews, they are embedded in the bbc to carry about work. I think thatis bbc to carry about work. I think that is one of the frustrations for many of the union members, they dont think it is impartial enough. They feel like its an exercise in joint to give the bbc the cleaners bill of health that count and i think thats one of the concerns we had. My legal team reviewed the report after yesterday and see it as more of an exercise, a pr exercise rather than. More of an exercise, a pr exercise rather than. That was my reaction. Finally. None of the things that stand as a piece of bbcjournalism. That doesnt surprise me. We have standards, and it really pains me and hurts me that the corporate machine is not living up to our values. There are 19,000 people in the bbc. Values. There are 19,000 people in the bbc. Where loyal, dedicated a responsible. 90,000 people. If they are on us with the facts and transparency, we will sort out. They have not sorted out for decades. The current leadership has not sorted it out for five years. I declared my ta ke out for five years. I declared my take on air, as some people may remember, in 2009. When i was, someone from management came to imply we dont do that at the bbc andl imply we dont do that at the bbc and i said, if you have a problem with my pay, cut it. If you think its defensible, defend it but well know the real problem the can of worms the bbc has an pay. That was 2009, were nearly a decade later. This is damaging the credit of the bbc ina this is damaging the credit of the bbc in a completely unacceptable way. I would agree. A final question i wanted to ask. The phrase equal pay for work equal value is what is at the centre of everything we are looking at here today. Bbc understands that . I think whats been really frustrating, the language of the bbc, and its deliberate because its from a lot of different executives at different times over the last few months, they keep talking about fair pay rather than equal pay. Not trying to talk about equal pay. I think they have said in meetings to me that they believe fair pay is a higher benchmark than equal pay. It kind of misses the point about what a lot of this debate is about. I think its all so frustrating that the language of how they are reacting, and partly maybe too many lawyers involved behind the scenes. Its making the problem worse. Referring to inadvertent areas of underpaying people or talking about, theres no evidence decisions were taken to wilfully discriminate. The reality is, they have. And instead of trying to somehow come up with excuses and make the situation get better, they should hold our hands up and say, yes, theres been a problem. Some of iti yes, theres been a problem. Some of it i inherited but i could have done more on my watch, but this is how i am going to sort it out now. Rather than talking about a future structure, and its important to focus on a future structure, and i hope they do and it gets better in the consultation in the following weeks, but its notjust about the future and future pay structures, about which i also have some issues but how do you write the rungs of the past. The anywhere you will do thatisif the past. The anywhere you will do that is if you take a pragmatic view, sit down with people, involve the unions and the individuals affected and come up with a way of settling mess that is pragmatic, and that doesnt force all of these talented women to have to take litigation against the organisation that theyve dedicated their careers to. Nobody should be put in that position, the stress people have been put under is too great already andi been put under is too great already and i think it would be outrageous if the bbc sits on its hands in that regard and doesnt do the right thing now to resolve things properly. Can ijust add to that. Obviously a lot of companies, a lot of Big Companies across the uk will be reporting their gender pay gaps in the next few months. This is a huge story. We, the bbc, will be reporting on it, obviously. But we are supposed to be an example, and we are in a position, because we are first up because of this huge row, and how we handle it is important, notjust in w. Important and how we handle it is important, not just in w. Important to workplaces, employees across the country. I would also add to michelles point that we are not in the business of producing toothpaste or tyres that the bbc. Our business is truth. We cant operate without the trip. If we are not prepared to look at ourselves honestly, how can we be trusted to look at anything else we report on a Cigarette Market cant be a starting place to not deal with the facts. The facts are the facts. Ive been taught for 30 years to report the facts and the important facts make a story, tell it like it is. Ive spent four years in china, where there is enormous censorship and enormous injustices. Ive been proud to go out there and deal with the facts as i find them, to face down the censorship pressures and intimidation of a very significant and powerful regime, which operates now at every level in the uk, as wellas in which operates now at every level in the uk, as well as in china, which operates now at every level in the uk, as wellas in china, and because i believed in our values, i had a compass. If Corporate Centre ta ke had a compass. If Corporate Centre take my compass away, i dont know who i am at as take my compass away, i dont know wholam at asa take my compass away, i dont know who i am at as a bbcjournalist. Thats the most profound sense i have of myself as a bbcjournalist, to report the truth is i find it. If they dont report the truth, how can we . Absolutely, thank you. Can i ask you more about the grievance outcome . You said they have inadvertently underpaid you. That is what they have said in the decision and have offered you. It is quite legalistic. Theyve offered you about £100,000. They havent told me the exact amount but i would say it isjust inside, properly. In their decision to you, have they explained what you should have been paid and how that equates to a male comparator . Have you been given any of that information question i do you know . Not really. So basically they are saying in 2014, from the point the north america editor was appointed, i think the sum was 155,000, currently more than im being paid. That was for all the way up being paid. That was for all the way up to being paid. That was for all the way 9 being paid. That was for all the way up to spring of 2017, and then in spring of 2017, high salary were supposed to go up to 180,000. 0k. They havent said to you how they arrive at the 155 . That relates to the development issue. Right, 0k. Have they said anything about pension contributions or other. . Not really, i dont think so. I only got at the end of last week, as i was dealing with a family bereavement. No, idont was dealing with a family bereavement. No, i dont think theres anything. I will get back to you. You get my drift, if you are being paid less as a woman than a man for doing the same job, you being paid less as a woman than a man for doing the samejob, you are getting a reduced pension . This is all capped the people, they cap the final pension, the final salary Pension Scheme increases in 2011. So. It was 2011, was on a quest . They havent given you any information in your grievance outcome that theyve factored in any losses aside from the salary . |j dont losses aside from the salary . dont think so. Im just slightly scrabbling to find a bit of paper but i will get back to you on that. I wanted to go on to different point. You have talked about truth, our business is true. How do you feel that some of your female collea g u es feel that some of your female colleagues have been taken off air and not been able to present a report on the equal pay issue, which came at to light as a result of your sta nce came at to light as a result of your stance in public . Well. Im disappointed. Im disappointed. I think we got back to a better place. I thought the reporting, i thought it was handled better yesterday, in terms of people being allowed to do their job. Terms of people being allowed to do theirjob. I mean, we can all do thisjob. So i suppose what i would say about that, the handling of the infamousjohn say about that, the handling of the infamous John Humphrys and jon say about that, the handling of the infamousJohn Humphrys and jon sopel recording in the studio, and various other issues, the very strange day la st other issues, the very strange day last friday, where they announce these voluntary pay cuts and had to change the story several times. I think its not worthy, any of this, the bbc. And, to me, what it says is we are not secure in the foundations of what we are saying, and therefore because our foundations are not securely in the truth, accountability, transparency and our real values, we are not living our values in the press centre or where ever they live, not living with the same values as the rest of us, it makes me angry, it makes me disappointed, it makes me desperately anxious to the future of the bbc. Like i say. If we are not truth tellers, who we . We are no better than the next new source. The bbc lives or dies by its reputation for telling the truth without fear or favour. That is what we go out and do every day and that is what our bosses should do. Thank you. Michelle, can i ask you a couple of questions . The on air report that came out yesterday, am i right that when the terms of reference were decided, you have played no part in that . Not in the actual report itself, because that process started before the joint unions became involved in the broader umbrella of the talent review, which is more than equal pay and pricewaterhousecoopers report. Pricewaterhousecoopers report. Pricewaterhousecoopers have also been involved in advising the bbc on a future structure and the unions have been playing a part in that and have been playing a part in that and have had regular meetings in the last few weeks. We have had evidence asa last few weeks. We have had evidence as a committee that prior tojuly last year when the bbc were being required to publish salaries of top earners, at that point and beyond july last year, a number of women who had been raising equal pay concerns for some time and had been com pletely concerns for some time and had been completely stonewalled suddenly that we re completely stonewalled suddenly that were approached and said, here is a pay rise. Did you have evidence of that . I think that is one of the issues. This hasnt come as a surprise to the bbc. They have known about the scale of this problem and the reality of this problem and have been very slow to react. It has only been very slow to react. It has only been under the glare of the public gaze that they have started to act. But yes, a lot of temple members and cases we have at the moment involve women who have repeatedly raised the issue of their pay. A lot of nuj members. They have been fobbed off, in some cases they have been misled, in other cases they have been lied to. So that stop to the anger and frustration people have, understandably so, much more, because it feels like the bbc is only just because it feels like the bbc is onlyjust beginning to be more transparent in acknowledging any degree of a problem when its being forced to, which i think is a significant problem. Its important to note as well, the nuj is involved, we have a Significant Group grievance were lodged, although there was no collective grievance policy so ultimately we will have to deal with them individually. Originally 121 women, a number of other women have come forward since. We are involved in a number of individual cases at different stages of the grievance process. These women across all parts of the bbc, notjust women in the on air population and were not just talking about higher earners comparatively, in the population of the bbc. These womenjournalists comparatively, in the population of the bbc. These women journalists of all scales and grades of the bbc. I think it is fantastic that so many high profile women have put their heads above the parapet collectively, because it is a very difficult thing, a big ask of anybody, particularly when it garnered so much Broader Media interest and speculation. Incredibly stressful to stop their doing that not just about the ring stressful to stop their doing that notjust about the ring cases but because they also know the scores of other women at other levels of the corporation who are also affected. That is a priority for the nuj at the moment, trying to an vehicle full of those cases. They are women within our bargaining unit, as well as outside. That is why it is difficult to recognise the findings of the equal pay audits, because those kind of. You know, minimal kind of pay gaps or differentials, the word justification for some of these differentials, it doesnt ring true to any of the cases we have got. That is why we have significant problems with the methodology of that work. As of the week ago, i know there were 297 equal pay cases at the bbc. 133 of those are on air but the rest of them, 151, are off air. There is another issue with the report that came out yesterday, i had stressed in the discussions we had stressed in the discussions we had with the bbc that people really wa nt to had with the bbc that people really want to see, this population wasnt addressed last summer, the analysis was done, before the bbc talked about the future and how it would resolve things, an honest assessment of the scale of the problem and what that was was an important first step, and contained within that data they cut off the data at the end of they cut off the data at the end of the year or the beginning ofjanuary 2018, and that included 90 odd pay rises that the bbc had made between the whole furore starting and that piece of work cutting off, so it doesnt make the tight of data we expected to see. We wanted to know what was the situation when all of this hit and the bbc has been very active offering pay rises, pay revisions, for a whole range of different women, sometimes multiples, 40 grand, if you dont wa nt multiples, 40 grand, if you dont want that, 80. Similarly a very scatter gun approach which is. Want that, 80. Similarly a very scattergun approach which is. This was published yesterday, is it effectively a sanitised version of what has gone on . It takes a data, which is pay data after the offers of 40,000, 80,000 have been made to women who the bbc knew were not being paid the same as men doing the same job. That is a Fair Assessment and with the assessment of the nujs legal team. Do and with the assessment of the nujs legalteam. Do you and with the assessment of the nujs legal team. Do you think this review is genuine . Because, it says in it there is no gender bias in Decision Making around pay. It says that on page three and on page 31 it says we have not found any evidence of pay decisions being based on gender. Knowing what we know and what we have heard this afternoon do you think that is a genuine fair inquiry document . Itjust doesnt reflect reality because its happened. Now, has it happened because of managerial cockapoo or conspiracy . There is a problem if it is about incompetence how this has come to pass. The reality is many layers of management knew there was a problem and many women said there was a problem and it has not been sorted out, so to me that does not back up an assertion that there is no evidence of gender bias, and as i said, some of the nuj cases we have got, is about equal pay but also about other layers of discrimination, whether its maternity discrimination, or race discrimination, for that matter. So its a much more complicated reality that the bbc has wanted to come out and say it is and i think that is a missed opportunity. I think if it had been a report that was so much more warts and all it will allow people to have more faith in it and see it is the starting point for having a broader discussion about how you put these things right and ina way how you put these things right and in a way the bbc will have to try and regain background for the individuals affected. Absolutely, you said in your statement yesterday when the report came out its about rebuilding trust in finding a pragmatic solution. It seems to me andl pragmatic solution. It seems to me and i suspect you would agree with this, one way to find a pragmatic solution is to allow everyone who works at the bbc to be within one bargaining unit so that you have one pay structure with transparency and clarity and consistency. And that has been an absolute priority of the nuj and discussions that have taken place, we started them with pricewaterhousecoopers saying for this group of 100 people in an organisation of 19,000 it is far too complicated to have the same pay structure, you are being naive to think we should have the same structure to cover these individual people. Where we have got to now is much closer to work with think it needs to be to have a framework that is common but that has been the joint unions who have pushed the bbc to that position and i think that will make it a much better one. There is still work to be done, one of the things highlighted in the report was that for this population there will be narrow pay bands, thats going to be one of them outcomes. It has been reported now, the bbc has given this information out, that the top pay band, in its proposed new structure, yet to be fully consulted on, would cap at £320,000. Now, that is going to be population affecting a handful of people who present on two different news programmes, but that pay band, as the bbc believes it will happen, would start at £200,000. I dont know what anyones definition of a narrow pay band but my definition thatis narrow pay band but my definition that is narrow is not one that spans £120,000 and i dont see you can come up with a material defence pact that says this person who presents this programme can be paid 200 grand and this person, it is fair, appropriate and transparent to say they earned 320. That beggars belief. You could hire four broadcast journalists for that amount of money in other parts of the operation. Narrow surely must mean narrow because otherwise it feels like its giving another place to hide future in equities and i think that requires a lot more Work Together structure right, and also one of the things the nuj is saying is that we want full transparency of all pay across the bbc for everybody. That means everybody in all layers of management, all layers of journalists, programming cohorts and the on air staff and freelancers. If that becomes an outcome in the coming months that would be a positive thing to come out of this process but i think we need to work hard collectively to make sure that is where we get to. Without the transparency, of not just where you sit in a pay band of your broaderjob family, you need to know what the person across the way from you is owning as well. You need to see where the progression lies. That all needs to be out there and i think its really important that the bbc is pushed to do that. Thank you. I need to make a declaration at this point, i was a former nuj father chaplain in 2011 and 2012. Im afraid i didnt do it at the start. After the exposure your letter has gathered, do you feel you have been briefed against by the bbc . The sort of examples i have been sent over, these lines which management have put out about your letter. Im interested to hear this. One of them has been contradicted, you only have to spend 100 days a year in china, unlike the Washington Post where you have to live there with your family but you said 214 days was the amount of time. What did they say . 100 days. That is absolute nonsense. Koke. How earth does anyone end of saying that . Theyjust have to look at my contract. Can ijust say on that, ive noticed some misinformation appearing in sections of the media and wondered where it was coming from. Thats very disappointing. That came from sources i have at the bbc that passed over the information from management that they had been told. Cani management that they had been told. Can ijust management that they had been told. Can i just say this raises something that did seriously upset me. I got called by a journalist on the first saturday after my letter from a very big sunday newspaper, who said, trusted sources at the bbc have told me that you are part time. It was very upsetting in and of itself. I said, im not part time, iwork so hard. I mean, really. Becausei really just wa nt hard. I mean, really. Becausei really just want to promote china hard. I mean, really. Becausei reallyjust want to promote china in my work i can encourage everyone to have a look and judge for themselves. In order to ensure that nobody spun, or smeared, themselves. In order to ensure that nobody spun, orsmeared, or themselves. In order to ensure that nobody spun, or smeared, or buried my work, i created my own website earlier this month, Carrie Gracie. Com. Please, have a look. It is the work of notjust me but our tea m is the work of notjust me but our team in china, mostly women, we are so proud of our work and we have worked so hard. The idea that anyone could brief that i am part time. It raises another thing. I wasnt going to say this but i kind of think, i dont like talking about individuals but i was also very upset in mid november just before my grievance hearing when a former member of staff, a Senior Member of staff, told me that the current director of news, who is the most senior woman in the bbc news, had given him the impression that i was pa rt given him the impression that i was part time. That explained it because he had just set up the context, he was at an alumni event she was at the day after the pay disclosures, and he told me that he had asked her why myself and the europe editor were not on the hype a list high palest. He said, as reported by him, i dont understand why they are not on the list, Carrie Gracie and katya adler worked so hard and produce so much great material, why on earth wouldnt they be on the list . He said that frans answer was that i was part time. Ive since raised this with fran and she has told me that she would not have said that because, of course, she negotiated might contract so she knows i wasnt part time my contract. So she says its a misunderstanding the spurs and went away with a misunderstanding. But what i would say about this is that as the senior woman in bbc news, bearing in mind that the current head of news gathering once told the media that we had a problem recruiting women because we had unconscious bias in the recruitment of women in bbc news, i would expect the most senior woman in bbc news to stand up for one of her senior women journalists. At that point when somebody says, why arent these two great women journalists on that list . I would have liked her to say, yeah, Carrie Gracie and katya adler are great and do brilliant work, it is puzzling, i will go and have a look and investigate. Thats what i feel would have been the appropriate response. So this kind of justification, whether its im in development, or i am part time, or i just hang out in south west london, i dont laughter it is really upsetting, it is either funny or its sad. Ive worked so hard, its been so tough. funny or its sad. Ive worked so hard, its been so tough. I think the phrase is tragicomedy. Yes. So what im saying is, its not about me, we end up talking about my case, but i am me, we end up talking about my case, butiama me, we end up talking about my case, but i am a resilient person, i have in life, i have skills that are marketable. I believe the bbc tomorrow and get a better paid job. The thing is i dont want to leave the bbc because i dont want to live it in this state, its my work family, ive been with it for 30 yea rs family, ive been with it for 30 years and its in trouble and we need to sort it out and i need to be fair alongside the other great bbc women, also belittled, there were also marginalised, helping the bbc to sort it out and bbc management need to stop treating us as some sort of enemy putting up the kind of fortress with the emperor and his sons behind the fortress wall. No, this is the bbc that belongs to all of us and im going to stop calling them the bbc, they are bbc management and we are bbc women and there are bbc men and increasingly bbc men and bbc women will get together and by means of transparency, trust and solidarity, will help management get out of their hole and get to the right place. I presume what you think in terms of the briefings you were subject to, youd consider it to the intimidation. Is that the idea behind it, do you think . Or is it just another example of that bunker mentality, that seems to exist every town the bbc faces any form of criticism . I dont know because i dont have experience. I have a lot of experience of intimidation in china so, i can tell you a lot about that. I have less experience of intimidation, you know, at the hands of the bbc, and if you told me 30 yea rs of the bbc, and if you told me 30 years ago, and on any previous day in my 30 years at the bbc that i would be talking about being intimidated by my employer i wouldnt have believed it. So, i think what i have to say that this is when i decided to resign and then when i decided to go public about resigning, because my resignation, that didnt change their minds at all, i should explain the timeline here, i had my grievance hearing in mid november, i then got my grievance notes a week later. They we re grievance notes a week later. They were absolutely disgraceful nine pages of errors and spin, and they couldnt have been more disappointed, and i would class that is my worst day in the bbc. Only one good thing, if it comes out of today, it would be to insist that the bbc allow those making grievances to make an audio recording of their grievance hearing so that that never happens to anyone again. I couldnt believe that after 30 years of trying to uphold bbc editorial standards ive never been challenged over accuracy in china in four years despite, what you can only imagine where the army is trying to take me down there, there was no complaint because i cared about editorial standards. To be spun and filled with errors in an account of my own grievance hearing in one of the first complaint id have made at the bbc was unacceptable. That was the point i realised we are really in trouble and i have to do something to help this machine change course. So, first i went to bed the two days, i thought i cant do it, this is too big, i cant do this. I was so distraught by what had happened. Anyway, then i thought, no, i have to fight. So thats the point at which i decided to resign my post in china in protest at the way the bbc was handling my case and the case of many other women and the way the bbc is discriminating against all the women michelle is talking about. This is not just women michelle is talking about. This is notjust rich, entitled high profile women, this is women who are on the salaries that they cant afford to buy a home, they dont have the money to raise a family, all of these women, that is who we are fighting for. Anyway, decided to resign to make that point. And then a week later i heard the then director of news on a bbc programme saying we dont have an equal pay problem at the bbc. And ijust thought, no, thats not what bbc journalists do. They tell the truth, and thats our director of news. And i thought, its not good enough. Its not good enough to resign. This ship has not changed course, i need to climb this wall and tell the public who owned the bbc, and thats when i decided to go public on it. At that point when i was talking to friends and colleagues about going public, coming back to answer your question, a lot of people told me not to, michelle was one of them, well, not exactly told me not to but she was worried. I told you about the risks. She was worried i would be sacked and i might get victimised and so work colleagues and some collea g u es and so work colleagues and some colleagues were worried i would get smeared and spun against, senior colleagues. But i really dont think. Myjob is to tell the truth, i cant do that for four yea rs truth, i cant do that for four years in china and then fail when it comes to my own organisation. I couldnt live with myself. Michelle, ifi couldnt live with myself. Michelle, if i could just ask you a question in terms of there has been lots of reference to lower down the income scale in this respect, do you think the bbc should open up its books effectively to all areas of the bbc, including middle management, for example . Including middle management, for example . And including middle management, for example . And disclose including middle management, for example . And disclose the bands they are paying people, the levels of pay, so that we can see exactly how far this reaches . I think that would bea far this reaches . I think that would be a sensible and constructive thing to do. For the be a sensible and constructive thing to do. Forthe bargaining be a sensible and constructive thing to do. For the bargaining unit there has been negotiations with the joint unions going on over the past 16 months about a package of changes the bbc wants to introduce two terms and conditions involving a separate process of creating a new, what they call, career path framework, which will have overarching bands and family bands for different jobs within it and we have pressed the bbc that that information needs to be available to everybody so people can see yitzhaki where they are, not just their own information but everybody elses. And notjust our bargaining unit, everybody the bbc employees. I think that would be a constructive step forward. I think its kind of a basic thing for a public body to do in any case. I think its a no brainer. It could only be a very positive thing. The reason i raised that particular question is because ive been contacted by quite a few senior broadcast journalists who have contacted by quite a few senior broadcastjournalists who have said to me effectively, 0k, were talking about this at tremarco salaries, the hundreds of thousands of pounds astronomical salaries. Im earning far less than that but i have a good idea that perhaps some people seem to be earning exponentially more, mainly because it seems they may have been brought in by a particular person, they may effectively have, not a relationship but at least a history with an individual in the past in terms of career etc and suddenly they find themselves in a place where there may be seated next to somebody who is doing the same job and this goes across gender as well, that person is being paid two times more than they are earning. Do you think that experience is common at the bbc . Absolutely. The division of news is a particular offender and its no surprise that is where a lot of the problems are. And there has beena of the problems are. And there has been a serial misuse, i think, of managerial discretion, which has fostered all of these different pay inequities across the peace. The nuj has complained about this, complained when appropriate boards are not followed, whenjobs complained when appropriate boards are not followed, when jobs are complained when appropriate boards are not followed, whenjobs are made available, and when somebody is parachuted in who happens to be friends with whoever is making those kinds of decisions. And often in those kind of scenario as men are treated more advantageously, that is a bare fact, of women have said to me that when it comes to pay, promotion and Job Opportunities at the bbc it still very much feels like an Old Boys Club and that shouldnt be the case in 2018. That needs dismantling and the more transparency there is, i will be what enables that to shift. Achieving any kind of cultural change the bbc is hard because there isa change the bbc is hard because there is a lack of consistency across the piece, there is a genuine motivation behind the changes the bbc wants to introduce to address the inconsistency that exist but you need people to buy in from the many layers of managers as well in order to do that effectively and i think thats a big challenge for the leadership of the bbc now. Thank you. Rebecca pow. Thank you again for coming in. Much appreciated. Carrie gracie, i know you have touched on lots of these things but if you have to summarise it in a couple of sentences, why do you think you didnt receive the page you deserved . I think it is complex, actually. There are a number of factors. To be honest, i did receive the pay that i deserved, thats a lot of money, in absolute terms i was always happy with my pay. But i think its more the kind. The issue i always had was the equality. So its always been complicated to fight for equal pay because it looks like youre asking for more money, which i didnt need and i didnt want. There are people lower down our pay structure, who do need no who do need more money. Do you think it had anything to do with the fact you were a woman and perhaps considered a soft touch . Of course. Ididnt considered a soft touch . Of course. I didnt ask for pay rises. Do you think the bbc thought it was a good deal . The director of news James Harding once said to me as i walked in his office, and as always when i walked into his office, which wasnt very often, because despite what summary said, i was often in china. Once when i walked into his office he said, carrie, what a joy to see you, how is it you deliver so much and asked so little . I didnt realise he was talking about money. He may not have been talking about money. Now, when i think about it i think, interesting. Do think from all that we have heard and you have witnessed that the bbc is in breach of the equality act 2010 and is guilty of discrimination overpaid . Emphatically, yes. And i am so not alone. I emphatically, yes. And i am so not alone. Lam emphatically, yes. And i am so not alone. I am here emphatically, yes. And i am so not alone. Lam here notjust representing myself but representing 190 now, this group is growing all the time, bbc women. We all think the time, bbc women. We all think the same, we think emphatically yes the same, we think emphatically yes the bbc is in breach. I was astonished when i heard the director general said yesterday he thought he had resolved so many cases because i know these people individually. Im not sure they would use that verb. How do you feel when you read one of the witnesses in the information we we re the witnesses in the information we were supplied with, she said she was a National Radio presenter and she was told the bbc dont do equal pay . I think thats about the size of it. I find it really astonishing because we approached it, all of these women, myself included, approached it last summer after we had got over the shock, because when you go through a shock like that you go through a shock like that you go through dismay, disbelief, rage, guilt, confusion, self doubt, all of these emotions, but once we have got over the emotions we all individually and collectively went about treating it as a reporting assignment and finding the facts. Obviously if youre going to do that you look to the rule and when i looked at the royal and im ashamed to say it was the first time id read the relevant Employment Law and equalities legislation, and i thought, my work i wish i had read this when i was younger because all the protection is there so why didntl the protection is there so why didnt i read it and why do we have pages, nation, seeing as it is so clearly set out legally . So i did that, read the law, looked at lots of tribunal cases, and noticed with interest that many against the bbc dont make it over the threshold, because they are settled beforehand, hence my point in my open letter about nondisclosure agreements. Read about nondisclosure agreements. Read a lot of tribunal case summaries, talked to a lot of lawyers, and then i thought, talked to a lot of lawyers, and then ithought, 0k, talked to a lot of lawyers, and then ithought, ok, this talked to a lot of lawyers, and then i thought, ok, this is clear, and talked to a lot of lawyers, and then ithought, ok, this is clear, and i thoughtjust like ithought, ok, this is clear, and i thought just like a ithought, ok, this is clear, and i thoughtjust like a chinese petitioner, going to talk to the emperor, i have seen it so many times in china, you talk to somebody who has suffered a terrible injustice, and they just who has suffered a terrible injustice, and theyjust think if they get to the emperor and tell the emperor what happened the emperor will sort it out and all will be won. I wasjust will sort it out and all will be won. I was just that will sort it out and all will be won. I wasjust that innocent. I thought if i got this message to tony hall, the director general, about what was happening to me and others that he would sort it out because it was the law. How do you feel about a Public Broadcasting Service like the bbc not sorting out out . It is not sustainable, that is not who we are, that cannot stand, that will go down to all kinds of defeats. The first defeat is that many women will leave, many women have already left and many women are leaving now. We probably dont have time for me to read the quotes that people have been deluging me with messages of the last 48 hours, and some of them are saying, i am lining up some of them are saying, i am lining upajob and some of them are saying, i am lining up a job and i will not be here. You said you didnt want to get emotional, but how do you feel when you walk into a room of your male collea g u es you walk into a room of your male colleagues at the bbc . How do you feel now that you know what has been going on . I think the situation has put all of us in difficult positions, and i include managers in that. A lot of them are decent people and in many personal ways they have been kind to me. And in editorial ways they have backed me up. Editorially, we have had difficulties in the four years i have been in china but the pressures brought to bear, and am proud to say bbc managers have backed me up. Both of my senior male colleagues, on air colleagues and my managers, i would say that we all are in this mess together, and that i would say in relation to the managers that they have been forced to make dishonourable choices and make dishonourable decisions, you dont feel humiliated . No. Thats interesting. I feel. No, you dont feel humiliated . No. Thats interesting. Ifeel. No, i never feel humiliated, if you try and humiliate me i feel angry and im determined to fix it, so hence my grievance outcome is entirely self defeating because anyone who tells me i was in development for three years in china is going to lose. But coming back to the other cost of all this, we have a toxic work atmosphere, we have women leaving, the credibility of management is diminished and damaged. They will lose in employment tribunal. I dont know who is going to insist on testing this in employment tribunal but if they go on sticking their head in they go on sticking their head in the sand with the bunker mentality we just talked about, their strategy, they are stumbling towards a kind of greek tragedy where they make happen their own worst fears. They need to stop now, the need to pullup, they need to stop now, the need to pull up, they need to trust their staff to handle this responsibly. Ive noticed that there is a kind of keep calm and carry on hashtag since idid my keep calm and carry on hashtag since i did my open letter but that is what we all need to do, willie to keep calm for the sake of the bbc. We need tojust keep calm for the sake of the bbc. We need to just work on this keep calm for the sake of the bbc. We need tojust work on this we need to keep calm. I say to some of my male colleagues, the language about having money thrust upon you, language about having money sloshing around, this is not the bbc that any woman i know has lived in and it is not the bbc that many male members of staff who are not in that kind of alpha male category has lived in. There are people who are struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table and i think all of that kind of language is unfortunate and should not be used. This is a slight aside, but its a rather strange contrast, i imagine, between all the stuff about who is paid more and then your Programme Budgets which are so regimented. Yes, i really hope you are going to get an answer from the director general about how much he spent on consultants, lawyers, Senior Management in grievances and so on, that cost alone must be massive. And they dont work because we dont trust them, we dont trust the equal pay audits, we dont trust the equal pay audits, we dont trust the report that came out yesterday, we dont trust these things. We dont trust management. They have to put their hands on the table at all times now, we need full transparency in the bbc, said the grievance handling, itjust in the bbc, said the grievance handling, it just has in the bbc, said the grievance handling, itjust has to change. We have to have independence, independent managers in charge of grievances, because all the money is being wasted. This is money that could be spent on saving jobs and saving programmes and making good programmes. Its just about saving programmes and making good programmes. Itsjust about i hate to think about it. Just quickly to michelle, having heard all these descriptions, particularly in your evidence you referred to the sequence the pay, sometimes the bbc we are in an austerity cuts and then throwing more money at somebody else. How would you describe it . The bbc has a wizard kind of schizophrenic attitude towards its conversations with the joint unions on pay. On one hand it will defend pay stagnation and yet when it, when challenged about the levels of executive pay a managerial pay, it talks about how they are all working at a significant discount to market rates. Not talking about any kind of Public Sector ethos or why people would want a leader and work at the bbc for any other reasons than their pay packet. We find that very difficult. There needs to be a radical restructuring of pay and expenditure at the bbc. The last two licence fee settlements have massively and the bbcs ability to carry on as a Public Service broadcaster of international renown. The cuts to budgets have really impacted on grassroots programming and journalism. Many, many impacted on grassroots programming andjournalism. Many, many hundreds of journalists have lost andjournalism. Many, many hundreds ofjournalists have lost theirjobs through redundancy, endless redundancy. A lot of insecurity, a lot of lack of certainty about the future and no prospect of eddie inflationary pay rise, even. So it doesnt compute with talk of money sloshing around being able to reduce anybodys salary by 100 grand or more or half the salary and still being a significant one. The vast majority of the members the nuj represents, that is really frustrating to know, when you are struggling to make ends meet as a family any and had a meaningful pay rise for a long time and your programming and budgets, the work you want to do is to compromise because there simply arent enough people doing the work to make it the quality want to stand by. The bbc, a lot of programming and journalism in the bbc happens because of peoples goodwill, because they are working longer and harder and struggling with stress. We have seen the impact on people in terms of stress and well being. I on people in terms of stress and well being. I think on people in terms of stress and well being. I think there needs to be, as well as greater transparency, a more profound discussion about the bbcs level of pay, for those at the top and running the bbc, as well as everybody else. Because it is not sustainable as things stand. Thank you. Picking up on what carrie said about this being our bbc, a Public Sector organisation. The picture that im getting is that the Current Situation is there is no structure at all is paying individuals. Is that right . There is a structure, there has been a structure of grades but clearly they havent operated to the standards of transparency and accountability that he would expect and that he would pity clicks but. Ive got a long list here of quotations from employees of the bbc. This is my favourite from that list, setting out why i think this appears to be chaotic at the moment. This is since july, ive been offered a 65 pay rise. Ive also been told that the bbc is satisfied there is no issue of equal pay in my case. In pay terms, this offer would bring me in line with the lowest paid of the presenters who work on the same programme as i do. What i cant understand is how a Public Sector funded organisation can have a structure where. Rebecca and i are on the same amount of money but it is public knowledge, it doesnt kill us. Chuckles why cant it be the same with the bbc . It should be. And there is nothing to be feared from that. And as licence fee payers, because i waste talk about the bbc is our bbc and whoever happens to be running it at any moment in time doesnt make that corporation bears. I think there needs to be much more Public Engagement in this debate and what we expect as licence fee payers now that money is spent. It should be on a wild west of these and salary arrangements at the high end of the pay categories, where money is just thrown out willy nilly without any justification. There needs to be an absolute clear structure which hasnt existed for all of the staff, because we see this on a group where there has been a lack of structure. There have been at problem with differential where there are grades and there should be more control but managerial discretion has been abused. That is the reality. Not only do we need clear structures but we need those to be known to the public who pay the bill. Absolutely. Because it is being done in our name and isa because it is being done in our name and is a disgrace. I agree. Ifi and is a disgrace. I agree. If i may ask that point of clarification. You may have said this, i apologise if you have, you said you are given a guarantee of pay parity when you are given the job. No, i didnt actually say that. Ididnt job. No, i didnt actually say that. I didnt even know that language at the time. Ijust said i wanted to be paid equally, thats what i said. The bbc would say that i was, at that point. Sorry, i interrupted you. No, youre answering it exactly there was an expectation, use or are new tool expectation you would be paid equally with people of the same grade and that is how the meeting was left. Who was that meeting with and who gave you that guarantee . That meeting was with the then head of news gathering, Fran Unsworth, who is now director of news to stop it was she with whom i had the conversation. Subsequent to your resignation, the £45,000 that you we re resignation, the £45,000 that you were offered, that you refused, do you see that as a genuine far or was this money for your silence, hush money, in effect your nda that was being offered here . No, because i think realistically, no. The ndas come into operation later, if somebody mitigates, and actually there have been some issues with that, or tentative. It there have been some issues with that, ortentative. It wasnt that, or tentative. It wasnt bad at all. And i note the director general said yesterday saying no one would be expected to sign confidential clauses later, because i welcome because we will never get systemic change with the previous attitude. On the £45,000 that i was offered. No. I think it was what the director general and the management tea m director general and the Management Team would call a revision in an attempt to resolve, the resolving of issues he was talking about yesterday, it was that kind of thing. Im not going to use the language of hush money or bunks or bribes. I think what it is is managements attempt to resolve the issue without taking an historic liabilities. So they want to resolve theissue liabilities. So they want to resolve the issue in a way, but its not a resolution for anyone, really, because it doesnt deal with the equal pay point. It is not transparent. These women are not told what they are their comparator is learning. They are given some money and some of them really need that money, so it is not possible for them. I was already earning a lot of money so it was possible for me to say, to take the moral high ground and say, i dont wa nt moral high ground and say, i dont want your money, but that is not possible if you are earning £25,000. People have often felt forced to ta ke people have often felt forced to take that money but they havent got equality as a result, and i would not say, the ones i know, that they filby issue is resolved. Many of them have said the relevant legal phrases to except while reserving all rights, and that means they can reserve the right to pursue a claim in future. That means the bbc has not effectively dealt with the fiscal liabilities it may face as a result of the undoubted issues of equal pay. Could you just tell me, your grievance, the grievance report, the report of your grievance, that was the report that said you were in development . Yes. Thats a first time ive ever been in development, at 55 with that, was it the reporter also said you inadvertently underpaid . Yes. I think the word was inadvertent or a very similar word. I will get back to you to be 100 . If the same report said that you are inadvertently underpaid and. Surely it is mutually exclusive . You will have to raise up with them, im afraid. Ijust dont understand it. The mind boggles. Im sorry, im interrupting you again. Onjuly the 22nd, the kind of Founding Team of bbc women wrote to the director general, to say this is not just a gender pay gap, this is an equal pay problem and you need to sort it out urgently. On the 1st of august i broke personally to the director general, explaining my story and saying, do you know what, this is an equal pay problem for me andi this is an equal pay problem for me and i will resign my post if it is not resolved. And so it goes on. So, yes. Ive actually lost track. It kind of goes, i think, to the heart of the chaos of this whole thing, that the same bbc report can tell you you are being paid this amount of money because you are in development and then they say. Almost apologise and say you have in inadvertently underpaid. almost apologise and say you have in inadvertently underpaid. I dont understand it. Which is it . I dont understand it. Which is it . I dont understand it. Which is it . I dont understand it. Im sorry, i lost my thread for a moment. What i was hoping to say, because ijust dont understand, they dont understand to me, thats why felt all the way along. All i want to do is apply the law and be valued for my china work and an apology would be nice. That would be the icing on the cake. I dont want their money. They have this very defensive lawyerly approach which is they cannot acknowledge it because it carries a fiscal liability and they cant admit my work with equal, so they come up with all these justifications. I said to them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overagain, and over and over and over and over and over again, this is not about money for me. They just and over again, this is not about money for me. Theyjust dont get it. So yet again, they try to make it. So yet again, they try to make it right with money that i dont want. I have already told i dont wa nt want. I have already told i dont want that money. And in fact, on your point, the point about the co nsta nt your point, the point about the constant revisions, there is another revision in prospect in my case, they are talking about a meeting to look at my salary, my substantive salary at a point in 2013 before i went to china. Heaven knows what will happen there. Youd lose the will happen there. Youd lose the will to live, because all i want, i meani will to live, because all i want, i mean i know you get it, but all i wa nted mean i know you get it, but all i wanted them to say, you work in china was of equal value to your male peers. That is all i want. Finally, type it again we return to theissue finally, type it again we return to the issue of truth and trust. I think you said the bbc if it cannot be truthful and trust, what is the point in the bbc . Given what we have this afternoon on the reporting of this afternoon on the reporting of this issue by the bbc, the treatment of you and other women, the bbcs capability on this issue really has been shot to pieces. Do you think the people who are currently in Senior Leadership roles, particularly in news, can be trusted to restore the bbcs credibility in this area . I feel, when i hear you say the bbcs credibility has been shot to pieces, thatjust is like a physical hurt to me, as a man who has worked for the bbc for 30 years and try to uphold its journalistic standards. I really hope our credibility is not shot to pieces, i would just hope our editorial credibility could be protected from this pay row. On the pay row bit, i do think that we have to get it right. We just do do think that we have to get it right. Wejust do have do do think that we have to get it right. We just do have do get it right. We just do have do get it right. And it is urgent. Whether the current team can do that is not really a question for me. I have been china editor. I continue almost anything you want to know about china, but Corporate Governance and Corporate Management in the bbc are not my specialism. However, what i would say is, i will not trust what they say on pay without the evidence. Not for me, not forany other women, not for any other member of staff. They had to be transparent in future. This question of other Public Sector, other parts of other Public Sector, other parts of the Public Sector and mps can handle transparency, why cant we . We can and we need it now. The nhs, the civil service. Its uncomfortable for people at first, and it will be painful, because the transition to transparency, because the people who have lost out, the people who are not on the director generals salary or the Deputy Director generals salary or the director of newss salary or the hundreds of thousands of people who are earning so little and working so hard, as michelle explained, giving the road to the bbc for very little money, and when they see the inequalities, when they see the hard fa cts inequalities, when they see the hard facts in black and white about the inequalities they face, it will be very, very painful to them, i think. However, we all, because at the end of the day we cant lose the bbc. The bbc is 19,000 great people doing a greatjob. At the moment, our leadership is not doing a greatjob on pay but the rest of, the rest of the bbc rank and file, you would be so proud if you saw the work day in and day out, so proud if you watched them at work. So we have to get this right. We cannot let this damage the bbc any further. Thank you. Can i just ask, when you put your grievance in, did it feel like quite a big deal to you about point . It was huge. Did you feel when you are considering putting it in, was there any sense, michelle advised of there any sense, michelle advised of the possible consequences, was there any intimidation or suggestion that, from management, you might not benefit if you put a grievance in . So, how i feel about that process is as follows. I didnt feel that precisely at the point of putting my grievance in. Di dougherty gone seven months and unequal pay complaint. I seven months and unequal pay complaint. I had all begun seven months with pay complaint. By the timei months with pay complaint. By the time i launched my grievance i angry andi time i launched my grievance i angry and i was determined that these people were somehow misunderstanding the law, or else they didnt care about the law because it didnt apply to them, they had immunity or something. But. So why was angry, i wasnt afraid. You have to remember, i work in china, so im used to attempt that intimidation. I said to my lawyer when she warned me that the grievance process could be very difficult, i said how hard, big, iam very difficult, i said how hard, big, i am the china editor. But i did,i big, i am the china editor. But i did, i underestimated it. It wasnt i faced did, i underestimated it. It wasnt ifaced intimidation. Two things happened. The Mental Health issues michelle spoke about, people facing the strain of being in conflict and of the delays and the belittling of your work because thats what i had to happen. If they are not going to happen. If they are not going to concede, they will have two crusher self esteem about your work. So that is very painful. So i did, i found all of that really had, and i really did. Im going to get upset now. I feel very angry about what they have put some other people through. I, i really feelangry about some of the things ive seen and heard and some of the women and the suffering they have gone through. You know, its not funny. All these women, they have been underpaid, many of them, i believe, for years, some decades. And at the point where this becomes apparent to us all, they then have to spend months and months and months trying to put it right. Paperwork on top of their already underpaid work, while trying to raise families, while trying to raise families, while trying to raise families, while trying to run homes, and constantly being belittled. Feeling that they are being belittled in their work, because that is what that machine has to do in order to deny every single one of them the legitimacy of unequal pay complaint. As far as i know, i will be interested to hear if the director general has found any equal pay complaint is the bbc has accepted, has kind of conceded, but i dont know of any. The second point i would make about what happened to me, it wasnt exactly intimidation. But what did happen to me on the 6th of december, i wrote to the director of news, the head of news gathering and the foreign editor. Studio we are going to pull out of there at the moment and bring the thought of our media correspondent in. A calm and measured Carrie Gracie at times but also a very emotional and angry Carrie Gracie at times as well. Yesterday we saw the facts and figures, lots of descriptions of means, mediums, averages, looking at gender pay bias. Today we actually saw what it was all really about, which is when you peer into somebodys life and see the impact these things have. For the last hour and a half it has been extraordinary to watch. Not just and a half it has been extraordinary to watch. Notjust because i work at the bbc. Anybody part of any Large Organisation to recognise elements of certain elements to it. If you just go through the details about it, she talks about a promised equality when she got the china job and she feels she was lied to. When she saw how much her male colleagues are getting and realise some of them we re are getting and realise some of them were getting more than 50 more than her, it was fury. But i think it has been doubled, troubled by the way she feels as though she has been treated since she talked about the grievance procedure. When she was offered more money and told at the beginning of her period, given that shes been a journalist on five yea rs or shes been a journalist on five years or so, she was in development. That actually raised a laugh within the select committee, didnt it . That actually raised a laugh within the select committee, didnt mm is almostjaw dropping at certain moments, when you see all of this going on. And very emotional at certain points, as well. You realise that what looks an argument about what seems to be very highly paid people wanting more money, it is much, much simpler than that. She made it clear, its not about the money. Its about quality, its about feeling youve been lied to, its about feeling people have just not been honest with you the year after year after year. That is what all of this is about this afternoon. I think all of this is about this afternoon. Ithinka all of this is about this afternoon. I think a lot of questions that the director general coming up in the next hour or so. He is coming up, as is Fran Unsworth, current director of news and named by Carrie Gracie there is very much involved in what she sees as this process where she says she has been mistreated. This is the interesting part about this. Yesterdays report was the broad picture of looking at measuring salaries and medians and this whole sort of area of statistics. But when you go through it day by day, the personalities, were actually gets to one person against another, this is when it starts to actually sort of reflect what happens in lots of peoples lives, especially when you have no idea what the person sitting next to you is paid. She was asked the question, do you think the bbc has been in breach of the 2010 equality at . She said emphatically, yes. This is making a very blunt accusation to the bbc that its been breaking the law. Weve been talking about 170 women, the ones campaign, she says is now a group of 190. It is growing. We have 280 complaints and grievances. We will hear from lord hall and Fran Unsworth later. David, thank you for that. We will be returning to the house of commons and bringing you the other headlines at the moment, but first, a weather update. Hello. Temperatures have fallen away significantly in the last 12 hours. Temperature started off at ten oclock but as the cold fronts have pushed outwards, the temperatures have dropped away. 5 degrees for example in oxford at ten oclock in the morning. The coldest air is further north, in scotland, and Northern Ireland, where we have seen already some snowfall today. There is more of that to come. As well as those snow showers coming in in North Western areas, plenty of sunshine out and about for many of us. Running through the evening time. We will see snow showers becoming more widespread and frequent across Northern Ireland and scotland, just in time for a shower. We could see several centimetres of snow affecting some of the roads, leading to some nasty icy conditions as we go through the first part of the night. We may see some wintry showers in england and wales, leaving a legacy of icy conditions as we start off thursday morning. It will be a cold start to the day. Temperatures hovering around freedom, but factoring in the wind, it will feel very cold. As we go through thursday, our area of low pressure will move out into the north seat. The winds coming from a more north north westerly direction and those winds will bring plenty of snow showers. Particular across the hills of wales and across lower levels at times, in scotla nd scotland and Northern Ireland, where those showers turn heavy. In between, some sunshine before temperatures between 4 7dc. Towards the end of the week, the weather gets a bit more straightforward. The area of low pressure moves towards europe, get this ridge of High Pressure building in for a time across the british isles. That means the most of us it will be a dry day. But a few showers on the north sea. Some sunshine, lighter winds but still feeling on the cold side. After frosty start, ties between 68dc. After frosty start, ties between 6 8dc. Looking at saturdays weather forecast, this weather front will cause some problems, because it has a slim slipper of milder associated with it. Milder air gets lifted up through the atmosphere and the air gets colder. This will create quite a bit of uncertainty about what falls from the sky. I think it is likely we will seek a spell of rain from the system on saturday but if the atmosphere calls them enough or the atmosphere calls them enough or the precipitation is heavier, we could see it turn to snow for a time. Quite a bit of uncertainty but worth staying in touch with the forecast for the weekend. Hello, youre watching afternoon live. Im simon mccoy. Today at 4pm the government says it will release a leaked study which indicated that brexit would leave britain worse off, if mps vote for it. im not a quitter theresa mays defiant message after days of growing pressure over brexit on a trip to china, term job to be done. On a trip to china, she told journalists there was a long term job to be done. Former bbc china editor Carrie Gracie who resigned from her post in protest at pay inequality tells mps her situation is an example of a wider problem. If the bbc cant sort it out for me, you know, a senior person at 55 in a powerful position, then how can it sort it out for more Vulnerable People who dont have a public profile . Once in a blue moon, skywatchers get to glimpse a rare spectacle today what astronomers call a super blue blood moon. Coming up on afternoon live all the sport. Its the transfer deadline day but the hours are running out. Absolutely, keeping an eye out for last minute purchases as we head into the final hours of the january tra nsfer into the final hours of the january transfer window but arsenal fans should be happy with their new record dealfor here emmerich aubameyang at £56 million. Watch out for pep guardiola, he looks set to be getting that cheque book out once again. We have more later. Chris fawkes is blocking our rather good view. Indeed, summoned, we have a supermoon, is it a weird celestial burst from our nearest lunar neighbour . No, iwill tell you burst from our nearest lunar neighbour . No, i will tell you what the difference is between a normal moon and a super one. Also coming up hello whale squeals. The killer whale thats astounded scientists by learning to speak human words through its blowhole. Wikie a 16 year old captive orca living in a marine theme park mimicks words such as hello and can count to three. Hello everyone this is afternoon live. Im simon mccoy. Downing street has said it is prepared to release an Economic Assessment of brexit which was leaked earlier this week. The document looked at three scenarios, all suggesting brexit will leave britain worse off. Ministers said they would not oppose a motion brought by labour for the details to be shown to mps and peers. Mps are debating that motion in the house of commons right now. Over to our assistant Political Editor at westminster, norman smith. It looks as if it will have to come out but its been a difficult process. The brutal truth is you have to pick your battles in politics and the government decided this is one battle that was going to lose because all the signs were that the Opposition Mps were going to vote to have this report released, good number of tory remainders were shaping up to demand it was released and even some brexiteers were relaxed about it being released. Remain us. You either go out all guns blazing, or put up the white flag and say you will release the report after all. Its quite a turnaround in 24 hours but based on the fact they were heading for defeat ministers decided they would make the best of a bad job, do the magnanimous thing and agreed to publish the report. It will be published but not the wider public, it will be put in room in the house of commons for mps to go in and look at the details of the economic analysis, at least thats what the brexit minister told the commons, robin walker. Starting with the terms of the motion, we will provide the analysis for the committee for exiting the European Union and for all members ona European Union and for all members on a strict a confidential basis, meaning we will provide a hard copy of the analysis to the chair of the Eu Select Committee and a confidential reading room will be available to all members and peers to see a copy of this analysis once those arrangements can be made. This will be under the same terms as previous governments and this government have arranged in similar circumstances. Yesterday when this first blew up the government got a bit of a battering from some of their own former remain mps, veteran ken clarke said the only reason the government was publishing the report was to avoid political embarrassment. Antoinette sandbach she said she had a right to know what the economic facts were so she could represent her constituents. This afternoon another prominent remainer anna soubry got stuck in. Sleepwalking to a brexit disaster, jumping over the cliff, whatever metaphor one wants to use. But of this government, and it could only be this government, doesnt get a grip at the top on the situation we will indeed walk into a brexit nightmare. Meanwhile, in the house of lords, a rather different story. Now, they are also debating brexit. The brexit bill is having its second day of intensive scrutiny by piers. But rather odd, and i suppose rather honourable thing happened in the house of lords, the minister resigned, and not for telling pork pies, or being caught with his trousers down or anything like that, but for the honourable reason that he wasnt in the chamber to answer the question. Now, that is a breach of protocol. He decided that because he had not observed the niceties, the formalities of house of lords procedure he should resign, so have a listen. My lords, with the leave of the house i wonder if you would permit you to offer my sincere apologies to baron is done for my discourtesy in not being in my place to a nswer discourtesy in not being in my place to answer her question on a very important matter at the beginning of questions. During the five years of which its been my privilege to a nswer which its been my privilege to answer questions on behalf of the government i have always believed we should offer and rise to the highest possible standards of courtesy and respect in responding on behalf of the government to the legitimate questions of the legislature. Im thoroughly ashamed at not being in my place and therefore i shall be offering my resignation to the Prime Minister. With immediate effect. I do apologise. Lord bates there. I dont think ive ever seen a minister resigned for protocol reasons, so there we are, that is a first at westminster. Studio thank you, norman. We are going to return to westminster for the select committee, Carrie Gracie, former china editor, still giving evidence over the equal pay row. Just give us the data. There was commentary alongside why you and jon sopel were paid differently, which explained that, and you think both parties and the licence payer would be reasonably content. Is that what you are saying . Sorry, we were paid the same . You were paid differently but if that difference was explained in a logical way that satisfy if that difference was explained in a logical way that satisnyon sopel and you you would be happy for that to be subject for scrutiny and you think it would help . It would be ha rd to think it would help . It would be hard to justify that disparity, to be honest, but a disparity, as long as they gave me in the public, the public can make up their own mind, but as the employee, if they give me the clear benchmark and beitia thats fine, i dont have a problem with that. The other thing i would like to say about talent, however, because there is lots of talk about these high profile names and honestly im sitting here so we have talked a lot about me, but thats not the talent im worried about in the bbc right now. Im not worried about the top talent and not worried about the top talent and not worried about people coming at the bottom, because the bbc brand, despite the damage we have been talking about, is still a very strong brand in journalism, so its great for young people to have some experience at the bbc and some training and so on. Im worried about a lot of people in the middle when they have got beyond that first, got the benefits of that training and so on, and then they need to progress in their careers and they need to have a home and they need to have a family. And, you know, they are so, so talented, i dont know why everyone talks about on air talent. These are incredibly talented people we work with. The top talent would look a lot less talented if they were not there. We have talked about the problems within the bbc, presumably, you deal within the bbc, presumably, you deal with members who have worked with other broadcasters too. How does the bbc compare with all of that . other broadcasters too. How does the bbc compare with all of that . I was clear nujs evidence that we are talking about the bbc and i have beena talking about the bbc and i have been a critical friend of the bbc, the nuj has lots of issues about how the nuj has lots of issues about how the bbc operates, but its by no means the worst culprit in the industry, it is a real industry problem, notjust industry, it is a real industry problem, not just in industry, it is a real industry problem, notjust in the broadcasters but other newspapers, agencies. There are eight significant amount of issues with equal pay there are a significant amount. The nuj is currently involved in various pieces of work in different titles and outlets with members of the nuj and our chapel to try and tackle this doing their own surveys, try and tackle this doing their own surveys, gathering their own data, and really putting this on the industrial agenda, which is great. People like carrie speaking about this, the fact that the bbcs issues with this are so in the public eye are sparking lots of positive work elsewhere, which is great, but i also firmly believe the bbc is not just another media outlet, it is our Public Service broadcaster. It has got responsibilities under the charter to kind of lead in a whole range of ways, and on this issue it really should be leading the pack, and others will follow. There is so much the bbc needs to do to clear up its act here. This isnt a flippant question but it was striking early on when you mention the number of grievance claims there are in and around the subject earlier on. Have you, or are around the subject earlier on. Have you, orare you, dealing around the subject earlier on. Have you, or are you, dealing with any where men feel, male employees, feel they are being paid inexplicably incomparable wages compared to their female colleagues . Does it ever happened the other way around . Yes, some men are taking advice from the nuj and some cases were flagged in the report as well, yes. That also leads back to the lack of structures and the use of managerial discretion ina way and the use of managerial discretion in a way that has put salary range is out of kilter in a way basically shouldnt be. Last question which we need to move on from either or both of you. Every journalist need to move on from either or both of you. Everyjournalist ive spoken to has ended by asking who is to blame. So who is to blame . The buck must stop somewhere. When tony has spoken about this in recent days he has referenced how he has only been at the bbc for the last five years or so. Lily various historical blame to be levied across different bits of the bbc. In a way it is missing the point, the leadership have got this problem and they have to grapple with it and sort it out. This problem and they have to grapple with it and sort it outfi is about accountability, as a Committee Member im not trying to make you say stuff salacious lee, but we have talked a lot about management salacious either do you mean the management leaders . Otherwise everyone must look over everybody elses shoulder and say it is somebody elses, somebody must be ultimately responsible. Imb elected general secretary of the nuj and whatever happens at the nuj on my watch, whoever is responsible on one, one element of it, it would be my responsibility to clean it up and its the same for the director general. Its the same for the directorgeneral. My feeling on this is it is an extremely large and unwieldy system, or lack of system. However, i do think that this is a Great National institution and it needs great leadership. When i saw tony hall to say please give us transparency and give us a proper response to equal pay, because i was very disappointed with his response at the time of the paid disclosures injuly. I at the time of the paid disclosures in july. I thought at the time of the paid disclosures injuly. I thought it was unacceptable injuly. I thought it was u na cce pta ble to injuly. I thought it was unacceptable to complain about being forced to make these disclosures. Without them, i and many, forced to make these disclosures. Without them, iand many, many forced to make these disclosures. Without them, i and many, many women up and down the bbc would have gone to our graves ignorant of our personal pay gap. Many women still are ignorant of their pace pay gap, u nless are ignorant of their pace pay gap, unless the bbc provides them with transparency. So i want full transparency. So i want full transparency. I want him to do that. I told transparency. I want him to do that. Itold him, you transparency. I want him to do that. I told him, you have to show courage, you have to show leadership on this issue. You have to be brave. We are still waiting for courage, and we must have it. Thank you. Paul farrelly. I should declare that i was a former member of the nuj having worked for reuters, the independent and the observer. I think sort of generally, by releasing this limited report a day, coincidentally, before this hearing, the bbc probably doesnt quite get it. It might get it in terms of the headlines, to coin a phrase, that John Humphrys has given up more than three times youve ever owned, carrie but in terms of this committee it certainly hasnt. I had a text yesterday from someone who is lucky enough to be at the bbc, very hard working and a very good reporter, within the 824. She said, off the record, of course, as a woman at the lowest level of the on air review, total shambles. I put in my equal pay claim three months ago, still heard nothing, now more delay, prevarication, obfuscation while they consult. Thats a familiar story. At least she was in the review. But how do people feel if they are not part of the 824 . How valued were men or women at the bbc . This is why i think we just have to have transparency now, and we have to have complete honesty and we have to have complete honesty and we have to have complete honesty and we have to have truth telling. I think the director general needed to make a much braver speech last summer and i thought yesterday was another missed opportunity. I think that personally we are all owed answers. Were not just any other company, truth is our business,. Just any other company, truth is our business,. We go around challenging companies in the uk and internationally challenging large powerful institutions, calling them to account, telling the story where they are failing to meet their grievance procedures, let alone their legal obligations. So why wouldnt we do it in the bbc . The bbc has got to be honest and now is the time. We put forward the recommendations before 2015 on the committee to get the bbc to publish in some form the salaries of those people being paid more than the Prime Minister. It was the chair John Whittingdale who got to put that into practice as secretary of state as part of the charter review. I was always sceptical because i thought it would be used by certain people as a stick to beat the bbc but in fact it has been very good to shine a light. I was sceptical because of the arguments the bbc used, that it would be a poachers charter, or that there was a market, which seemed to fall out of the news, because i couldnt imagine anyone picking up that report would think hey, John Humphrys, hes paid a smidgen below 250,000, we must recruit him for our new earlier today programme that we are going to launch, or master brain that we are going to do, it wasnt a ridiculous. But i put1. 2 going to do, it wasnt a ridiculous. But i put 1. 2 tony hall that he couldnt really answer the last time he was here. To put in a claim when you are already highly paid, what would it take, for an extra £80,000 to co present coverage of the Scottish Referendum . To co present coverage of the Scottish Referendum . What to co present coverage of the Scottish Referendum . What does it take . Do Scottish Referendum . What does it take . Do you Scottish Referendum . What does it take . Do you have to be a man . Do you have to have a pushy agent . Do you have to have a pushy agent . Do you have to have a pushy agent . Do you have to have chats bumped . Do you have to have chats bumped . Do you have to realise that if you dont ask you dont get and they will always roll over if you do ask . Sometimes i think all of the above, they appoint a man as the next china editor maybe it would make it easier to get on air. Ijust dont know. The whole situation is so disappointing so your question just makes me feel sad. I was asked yesterday on radio stoke does this really matter . But it does, because irememberyears ago really matter . But it does, because i remember years ago with the managements help of local radio stations and the squeeze on the licence fee we were fighting from the bottom up to stop cuts in local radio while this culture were still going on at the top, and the licence fee pot is finite. Exactly, it does matter, yes, more pressure. And transparency. I know ive said it several times already, but we need it. I mean, just a couple of last questions, i mean, lord hall took overin questions, i mean, lord hall took over ina questions, i mean, lord hall took over in a sad situation given the demise of George Entwistle and he was brought steady the ship but the bbc had already had controversy about high pay and payoffs, we have hired Mark Barfield and alan yentob. One of the documents were just recruiting people, without competitive interviewing, was win need to steady the ship, and apart from anne walford, mostly men, and asa from anne walford, mostly men, and as a former newspaperjournalist the salaries are eye watering. We have a female director of news now. Salaries are eye watering. We have a female director of news nowm salaries are eye watering. We have a female director of news now. It is progress. Female director of news now. It is progress. Well, you will see after this review. But it seems from the outside, as well as the inside, as jobs for the boys. So the question is, in the last four years, and jobs for the boys. So the question is, in the last fouryears, and i will ask when he appears in a moment, what do you feel, carrie lord hall has done to contribute to a change of culture . I think he makes a point about making women more visible. Obviously disability is not paid, as i pointed out several times. Its all very well to make me visible as the china editor, or the europe editor as the europe editor, also a woman, but if you are going to pay us half of the men, its like there is some distance. But he has made women more visible. Perhaps he is a victim of his own success in that respect, that he and the director of news, and i think its fair to say our previous director of news was keen to promote women to senior on air roles, and did attempt, if not in pay, in other ways to support us in those roles. And ive said before, and i will say again, thati and ive said before, and i will say again, that i was grateful for his confidence in me. Often your confidence in me. Often your confidence is knocked as a woman in the bbc so im grateful to the former director of news for always having confidence in me that i could do that china job and do it well, and nothing else ive said about the situation takes that away. So they, ina way, situation takes that away. So they, in a way, the director general, former director of news, coming back to my point, they promoted these women, and then lo and behold the winning didnt want to be seen but not heard. When they had an issue about pay they raced it because they thought, hang on, im supposed to be a senior person. Well, you may be a senior person but it doesnt entitle you to equal pay, is how we feel about it now. The final question picking up on julias about it now. The final question picking up onjulias question, the issue of this goes back a long way. The ultimate has been pretty much for people working exclusively more or less for the bbc, to be allowed to have these arrangements for owning even more by minimising tax. This is a completely different issue and turns it on its head. The bbc seems to have been forcing people to operate those arrangements to minimise the cost to itself. Yes, andl minimise the cost to itself. Yes, and i think its a great injustice that some of the language over the discussions about it has been to somehow label these journalists as somehow label these journalists as somehow trying to make more money, or not pay their dues because that flies in the face of reality. As i said, scores of people were forced into these arrangements and given the choice and it was made perfectly clear to them that their careers would not progress in the way they wanted us they went on these arrangements. I think there needs to be an honest look back to what happened because the impact on people is notjust on the ones ive mentioned, in terms of contributing to be paid in equity, leaving people adrift when it comes to sick leave, and holidays, and maternity pay. You know, all of which are hugely damaging, access to pensions. But its also put people in a very insecure position of work. They have gone through the great pain of the bbc and revenues and Decision Making about personal Services Companies turning on its head. Many have faced investigations and lots of stress about tax, and then the bbc abandoned that as a mechanism and told people to go onto these are the contracts that were inferior, deluded versions of contracts, and they still have not got the stability and insecurity de mac security of decent contracts and thats something i want to see addressed out of this stability and security. You cant blame the individuals who were set on this path, the Decision Making of that lay with the bbc and there is a case against the bbc in that regard in terms of the impact it has had on people, financially and in many other ways. Can ijust people, financially and in many other ways. Can i just add people, financially and in many other ways. Can ijust add a small point to michelles point, because i think there are other groups. This problem of secrecy, illegality, inequality, its notjust about winning and its notjust about this group, men can be vulnerable as well. Different ethnic groups get on at different paces in the bbc. Educational background. There are quite a lot of equality issues that are notjust the winning issue. And if you have the educational background issue and the race issue and the woman issue then you are going to be essentially at the bottom of that kind of caste system. To add another point, because it is pa rt of to add another point, because it is part of that kind of historic issue, and frankly, scandal about Employment Status here. Because now, since april, lots of individuals are being classified because of changes from the revenue, they are being classed as employees for tax purposes but not for flare ;1 1; sci iii 9 1 eiieeieee ee n, ~ 7 , f ;1 1; sci iii 9 1 eiieeieee e n, ~ 7 , f pay at ;1 1; sci iii 9 1 eeeeeee ee ee. E f pay at the ;1 1; sci iii 9 1 eeeeeee ee ee e e e e e e pay at the moment and are equal pay at themoment andate equal pay at themament andate enommus w; of equal pay at themement anelale mm eee; of stress facing enormous issues of stress about deductions being made now for National Insurance and paye and issues about their freelance status and that is a broader issue that needs to be grappled with here, and by the unions and by the bbc, because this is massively impact in on peoples livelihoods at the moment, and their well being on peoples livelihoods at the moment, and their well being and security and future relationship with the bbc. People who should be on staff contracts and people who are genuine freelancers are being dragged into that at the moment. In a very difficult and damaging way. It is an integrity issue at the bbc. One of the greatjoys of it is an integrity issue at the bbc. One of the great joys of going it is an integrity issue at the bbc. One of the greatjoys of going last is using to have answered most of the questions i was going to ask. I have to say that first of all i stand in awe at your courage, clarity and searing honesty today. It clearly isnt easy and one of the emotions on the list that you came out with was enormous sadness, but notjust for the people involved but for the bbc as a corporation that we all for the bbc as a corporation that we a ll love. For the bbc as a corporation that we all love. Yeah. It has come to a rather sticky place at the moment andl rather sticky place at the moment and i know you were talking about not being into Corporate Governance. But what are we going to do . How do we rebuild this Great Corporation whilst preserving its prestige and worldwide good name . If we always go back to our values, because we live them, the rest of us, so our values of truth, transparency, accountability, and i believe in those and most bbc staff do believe in those. If we can just those and most bbc staff do believe in those. If we canjust realign ourselves around the truth i think the bbc, although im guessing the reason they are finding it so hard to acknowledge the inequality problem they have, is because of the fiscal risk, but i think they will find that the more they commit to building a Better Future the more people will be able to forgive some aspects of the past and the fiscal risk will diminish if they build that Better Future. What i would like to see is i think its very important to acknowledge that trust is broken between a lot of the women involved and management. Itsjust broken and i dont think its very easy to repair that without outside help. We dont want to get to the point where that outside help is on employment tribunal, as in the miriam 0reilly case, they cost the bbc huget mass of money, lots of women will live along the way, there will be a toxic atmosphere at work and their credibility will be shot further and the damage to the bbc will be damaged even further if it ends upa will be damaged even further if it ends up a tribunal. I would hope that they would work with us, work with women and michelle through the nuj. With women and michelle through the nuj, to appoint an independent arbitration of some form that everybody can trust to deal with individual cases as swiftly as possible. Another thing i would like to see personally is full transparency on pay. Ijust believe in it so profoundly and i think it will help us get there really fast if we have more information. Because of the difficulties of the grievance process i went through, and im not joking, that was the worst day when i got those grievance notes, of my 30 years in the bbc because i could not believe we had sunk so low as an organisation as to do that, i dont wa nt organisation as to do that, i dont want to see anyone go through that process. I want to see, and cannot imagine any reason other than some kind of, hiding something or other or spinning something or other, that the bbc would not allow an audio recording of grievance hearings, it seems so obvious to me in 2018. We are going to have a beautiful transcript of this session, and thats what i would like to have seen from my grievance hearing. Do you see it as structural as well as management personalities . Management cannot sort this out. As michelle says the bbc is enormously complex, vast and unwieldy. Actually, i honestly think, trust the staff, we are responsible people, we are incredibly loyal to the organisation. A lot of people. Some people will insist on enforcing their rights to back pay. But some, like me, wont. People are in a different place on it. I think its important to trust staff to a better place as fast as possible so that the risk to the bbc is diminished, because i think, as i said earlier, they are walking towards their worst outcome now buy everything they do and they need to stop and they need to let us help them out. So you are looking at a rebuild, and finally, and slightly flippa ntly, looking at a rebuild, and finally, and slightly flippantly, but there isa and slightly flippantly, but there is a serious motive behind the question is would you like to be involved in that rebuild . I kind of feel i am involved. Laughter ididnt laughter i didnt leave. There is some social media criticism of me out there saying this is a ploy to get a pay rise. Really . It was an unorthodox way about going to get a pay rise. Or way about going to get a pay rise. 0ri way about going to get a pay rise. Or i should have left, there were some hypocrisy not to leave. What isee,| some hypocrisy not to leave. What i see, i feel that by speaking up from within the organisation, i am asserting our values and i believe in doing that. I dont believe in leaving your family, this is my family. Im not going to leave the field, just to leave it to people who have made a mess of it recently. I will be watching but hands on the table, we need to see everything they do. Thank you. Thank you very much, that concludes the questions for this panel. I would like to thank carrie and michelle for your evidence, which has been compelling and heartfelt. Carrie, with particular grateful to you. We drove from the work the committee does, its only when people take the brave stand to speak out against injustice they faced, that change happens. Its a harder and more painful process that should be. You have embodied for us everything that we value from the bbc at its best. Thanks so much. We feel sadly the story youve been through reflects the bbc is a corporation and a body which falls below the standards we would have expected of it. You have posed a lot of difficult questions for the bbc board, which we will put to them now. Im pleased at least you have been vindicated against the complaint you made. Thank you. Studio so, the end of evidence from Carrie Gracie, former bbc china editor. Michelle sitting next to her, the head of the nuj. We now await the arrival of the director general of the bbc, lord hall, tony hall. Also Fran Unsworth, who was very much part of the evidence Carrie Gracie was giving. Fran unsworth, who at the time of the period where carrie was given her china job, Fran Unsworth was the head of news gathering and responsible for the hiring of carrie and james responsible for the hiring of carrie andJames Harding. Responsible for the hiring of carrie and James Harding. We will cut the feed their from the house of commons. There will be a short break and we will return for the remainder of the evidence today in that row over bbc pay with Carrie Gracie. At times very emotional, and sometimes very angry, as well, expressing her view about management at the bbc. We will return to that a little later on. Two other news. Theresa may has tackled her critics. She responded to questions about the future as Prime Minister saying i am nota future as Prime Minister saying i am not a quitter. Robert bryan reports from shanghai. Who would have thought this was a Prime Minister on the rack . Theresa may has come to china to talk trade and first up in the city of wuhan that means education. Good arguments on both sides. Uk schools and universities are here, english is the second most popular language in china. Prime minister, i welcome you. Nice to see you. But still there was no escaping the sense of a leadership crisis around every corner at home. Even before she landed, she had to address that talk journalists travelling with her. First and foremost i am serving my country and my party. I am not a quitter and there is a long term job to be done. In beijing later, alongside her chinese counterpart, li keqiang, she admitted she needs to improve. Yes, we do need to do more and we do need to ensure that we are talking about what we have already achieved to those young people who worry about whether they will get their own home, to those parents who are concerned about the education their children will be getting. The Prime Minister pledged to intensify what both sides say is a golden era in relations. But china is concerned about the instability caused by brexit. Still, its premiere tried to offer words of reassurance. Translation for a long time, our relationship has been constantly developing. Our bilateral relationships will not alter between the uk and the eu. We will assess and held talks about our future trading relationship. This is day one of a three day visit which is focused on deeper trade ties. She said £9 billion worth of deals will be agreed. But china is only the worlds eighth biggest export market. There is potential for so there is potentialfor so much more. She has reservations as well, she has warned china it has to respect the rule book on International Trade and ensure there are safeguards in place if it wants britain to invest alongside it. When Prime Ministers go abroad they are often pursued by the main story back home and that is very much the case for theresa may. She wants you to see a leader working hard for her country abroad. You are supposed to see asias tallest building behind me today. But neither of those things are happening, both are obscured by a haze, a haze that shows no of lifting. The uk will have to get the right deal from the eu if it wants to maintain its leading security role in europe thats according to the head of the Law Enforcement agency, europol. Currently britain is a key player in shaping the priorities and protocols of Cross Border Police co operation and Law Enforcement in the eu. Ministers say they are confident britain can continue to have a significant role even though it will be outside the European Union. Throughout the day here on bbc news, with 14 months to go until the leaves the European Union, were focusing on what impact it could have on the the countrys security. Alex forysth is spending the day in portsmouth for us. The reason we are in portsmouth is because this port is one of many across the uk that may be affected in any possible changes in the relationship between the uk and eu when it comes to security. This port has a passenger terminal, where ferries travel to france and spain but it also has a Large International commercial port, where goods are shipped through to the European Union and the united kingdom. We have been hearing throughout the day at wimbledon is to businesses and in portsmouth that there is continuity of cooperation when it comes to security. What people dont want is anything that may disrupt the flow of goods and people as they travel through this and other ports in the uk. Therefore, despite the fact the uk and the European Union have both expressed a wish to maintain that cooperation, there are still lots of issues to be picked on decisions to be made. Thank you, alex. We have to go back to the house of commons. Lord hall has taken his seat and is being asked the first question of the committee. I think the result of the grievance, the procedure she described to you, did say very clearly that wed got something is wrong. That we hadnt would that we hadnt got those things wrong but we did and we should be clear about that. Perhaps imight should be clear about that. Perhaps i might also say that i hold carrie in the greatest regard. I was lucky enough to spend some time with her in beijing when she was there as editor. I think she was an absolutely first rate editor and has done first rate work for the bbc and i dont want in any way to undermine in any way the work shes done, because i think she has been extremely good. Can i also say on the record how much i admired the sta nce the record how much i admired the stance she has taken on this. It ta kes stance she has taken on this. It takes courage to speak out against the corporation which is, as she says, which you love the grid. She carried on presenting the today programme and she announced she designed and she has not in any way not been allowed to say what she thinks about the bbc and i think thatis thinks about the bbc and i think that is a good thing. Thinks about the bbc and i think that you good thing. if 7 7 thinks about the bbc and i think that jtiekgeadthing. Eeeeee e. , 7 which and one only reason, which i believe profoundly in the bbc and so do others. They believe the bbc is a good shared by everyone, we are broadcasting equally to everybody, we are owned by the public, the licence fee payers are, as it were, our shareholders. But also the values the bbc stands for really important. You were a the 2 7 in e , ieeeeeeee. Eeee fsaimf t a 50 even 50 goal, which i want by 2020, or earlier if we can. That matters to me hugely. Likewise, as it were backstage, behind the microphone and the screen, that has mattered to me a lot. Im very proud to promote some really, really excellent. What is being good going around the corporation and talking to people, the next generation of leaders in the bbc, we have some really, really good women andi have some really, really good women and i am really, really pleased about that. We have committed, yesterday, to a degree of openness and transparency about all issues to do with pay, on the very top pay for presenters. We have been working on that for the rest of dlthing e , e , e fit thing e e talk e e thing talk about, but a dull thing to talk about, but the framework which i think michelle was talking about, we have been looking forward , talking about, we have been looking forward, consulting on and talking about that framework where whoever you are, you can see where you sit and you can say, why arent i paid the same as that person that person . That, to my mind, is absolutely central to the reforms we are bringing about, because that degree of transparency will give people a view about where they sit in the system. I think that is really important. And although. Sorry to interrupt. I think what you are saying is very important but i would like to focus on some of the issues coming out of matters Carrie Gracie has raised. Im sure as we go through members will want to ask you about these other important matters as well. I asked at the