Im stephen sackur. New year, same old donald trump. Not a day goes by without a new media storm over a president ial comment, tweet or announcement that had democrats decrying him as unfit for office and republicans, well. What what do republicans feel and do about their de facto party leader . My guest is Michael Steele, a former chairman of the Republican National committee. Should the party stand with or dump trump . Michael steele, welcome to hardtalk. Its good to be here, yeah. Great to have you here. I want to take you back to that day in november 2016 when it became clear donald trump was going to be the next president of the United States. For you, as a long and loyal republican, how did you feel . I guess the emotion would be, here we go. Lets strap in, get ready. Because i knew id worked with donald trump in the past, i know what kind of campaign, obviously, he had run over the past 1. 5 years, and had predicted his eventual win earlier on. But if i may say so, not in neutralfashion. This is a quote from you after you observed one of the later president ial debates. You said of trumps performance, i was damn near puking during the debate. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Thats how i reacted, how a lot of people reacted, but it had nothing to do with his ability to connect with voters in a way that they would then, several months, later go into the ballot box and pull the leverfor him. Thats the one thing that i think a lot of the political elites and the establishments and the media and elsewhere did not understand fully at the time, was that as much as we were hair on fire about a lot of things that donald trump was saying, and the tweets and all this other stuff, beneath the surface, he was connecting with people in a way in which they found themselves drawn to him. I stepped back and observed that, and what i realised was Donald Trumps voters were once his audience. So these were people that he had been able to cultivate and develop a relationship with over a long period of time before he ran for president. And it should be said that you ran the Republican PartyNational Committee at a time when mitt romney was becoming a front runner. Mitt romney, john mccain. You had these years, the 2008 election, 2012 election where the republicans simply couldnt find a viable winner, and donald trump. I disagree with the concept that they werent viable winners. They were certainly viable in the sense that they ran competitive campaigns, but the problem was that the last little bit, as you know in politics, is about connection. You can have the best papers in the world. Hillary clintons a great example of it policy up the wazoo, but at the end of the day, its that connection with the voters that has to be genuine enough to pull you through, and that was something that was missing at the end of both of those campaigns. Which brings us to the present day. If you are saying to me that despite your reservations, which you had from the very beginning of the trump phenomenon, despite your reservations, you could see that this guy had a special ability to connect. Let us bring it to the present and ask what on earth do you think donald trump thinks he is doing with the messages he is putting out, day by day right now . Let us start with the first and central quote of this period, and that is his remark to a Bipartisan Group of Congress People that he couldnt understand why and its an offensive word but he couldnt understand why so many people from shithole countries were allowed to come into the United States. Wheres the connection there . Whos he connecting with . Hes connecting to that 36 37 of his base that have stayed with him throughout, period. Thats it, full stop. Thats exactly thats his cornerstone for anything hes going to do. Look, he could calculate and go, im going into 2018 with 38 . Democrats have put no one up against me so far who can keep me there. And he believes, and i do believe this, and its probably a sad commentary in the main, is if an election is held today, given the options that voters have, he would be in a better position to win than not. And that, again, speaks to the fact that donald trump, for Everything Else that people dont like about him, with that core constituency that has stayed with him, thats a good, solid base to start from. And so he appeals to them. Those comments appeal to those voters. He appeals to that basic instinct. You are that relative rarity in the Republican Party, a senior voice from the black american community. In your view, is donald trump a racist . Yeah, i think he has racist tendency. I think he uses race as a weapon to divide and conquer his opponents, to shift the narrative to something else. Personally, how do you feel about that . Oh, well, bothersome. Bothersome . Youre a black american what am i gonna do about it . It doesnt matter. I didnt vote for the man, so what does it mean . Hang on you didnt vote for trump . No, ididnt, no. The former chief of the rnc who refused to vote for the republican candidate. Thats been on the record since the election, no. Since before the election. Because i could not. I mean, look, i have a certain value set, i have certain principles and i have a certain way i look at the kind of leaders that i want to represent me and the key thing to understand here, and i think this is a critical moment on the heels of this recent controversy with the president that this is no longer about donald trump. We need to get over this shock and awe with donald trump. 0h, guess what he said today . Oh, my god, what does this mean . It doesnt mean anything. He is who he is. Hes a 71 year old man that was born out of a certain period of time, he reflects that period of time. But youre suggesting we normalise the fact that in your view, a racist is sitting in the white house. We had an election. Theres no impeachment proceedings, theres no 25th amendment proceedings, this will resolve itself at the ballot box in 2020. The American People have a decision to make at that time. So whether Michael Steele feels a certain way or someone else feels a certain way, the only thing you can do at this point is talk about it. And heres the key thing this is less about donald trump and more about the American People, a reflection of us, and the question becomes is this the reflection that we want to continue to project . Well get to the American People and what it says about the nation after we talk more about the Republican Party. Because, again, let us constantly remind ourselves, you speak to me as a former chief of the Republican National committee. What do you make of the responses to this particular outrage, the use of the word again, its offensive, but ill use it shitholes. But other things we could talk about with donald trump and race but what i want to know is what you make of the reaction of the leadership of the Republican Party on capitol hill . Its disappointing. The reaction of Republican Leaders is disappointing beyond any measure. You wont see any Real Movement against donald trump inside the gop until his numbers change inside the gop, because you have to keep in mind that members of congress, in a particular way, they look at their congressional districts. Donald trump is at 60 plus per cent in their congressional districts. Theyre not going to go against that number, alright. They dont want to be primaried in a primary election. They dont want to be in a situation where the president is using the hammer of his office, as weve seen him do. Forgive me if i sound as though as though my mind is being boggled here, but youre saying that top echelon of the Republican Party is happy to yoke itself to a racist as long as they believe that that is in their political self interest. Why are you sitting here, shocked by this . Didnt you watch the 2016 election . You saw 15 other people stand on the stage and couldnt put a glove on the man. You watched Party Leaders admit, yes, what he just said was racist, but we can still work with him. So you have to get over your shock and step back and understand the politics thats beneath the surface. Its no stranger here. Weve seen this in your own country, in great britain, when you look at the shock and awe the next day after brexit but let me finish the point you have to understand where people are coming from, and you have to understand what motivates and moves the Political Leadership that represents those people. At the end of the day, politics is at the core of it. Even on that cynical premise, i still. Its not cynical, its fact well, it may be factual, but you can also argue in the world of values and morality, its cynical too. Yeah. Oh, sure. 0k. So the basis youve presented the argument, i still dont understand why the Republican Party is in lockstep still with donald trump, because if one looks at basic facts about demography in the United States. But what are they going to do at this point . What do you think is going to happen at this point . What would you recommend happen at this point . They could create meaningful distance between themselves and donald trump. How can they do that . You cant do. They could start by saying, mr president , the way you are dealing with these issues, like immigration, is utterly unacceptable to us. And then what . And when he goes. So . What do you do then . Because hes the one whos got to sign whatever legislation you pass. And so if he doesnt sign the legislation that you want to get passed, what have you accomplished . Just going back to your notion of whats in their electoral self interest, you have the Fastest Growing demographic in the United States today, being the latino Hispanic Community. Correct. They, by and large, look at a president who on issues like building the wall. They voted 30 for him in 2016. And you think right now the Hispanic Community is still 30 with trump . I dont know, i havent seen the polling, but im just saying given everything that had gone before, alright, and certainly with respect to hispanics and the daca issue, thats an important issue on the back end, on the policy side, but im just saying, again, this doesnt follow any particular logical pattern. Thats the thing thats so frustrating about this, because the voters themselves thats why i go back to this being a. I give speeches around the country all the time. Everyones upset about donald trump. Hes a reflection of us, hes a reflection of where we are in our politics right now. You say, what could we do as politicians or political commentators such as yourself these days. One thing you could do, if im going to make it personal, is you could quit the Republican Party until donald trump. Why would i do that . Because your party is backing a man who you believe to be a racist. Have no become like everybody else who leaves, or i could stay inside to fight for my party. I believe in the founding principles that drew me to the party in the first place. According to you, theres no fight, that youve given up. You save there is nothing we can do. I did not say. Im talking about what can youre talking about what are legislators going to do . Theyre not going to impeach the man, thats not going to happen, so get that out of your head, its not happening. Theyre not going to invoke the 25th amendment where the cabinet and the Vice President write a letter saying the president s incompetent to serve. Thats not going to happen. The question becomes now how do you get through and get subsidive policy done, alright, if you can, and how do you, to your point, and, look, i dont want to give the impression that i dont appreciate what youre saying, i do. The question is theres only so much of this thats going to get itself worked out now. Thats what elections do. This november will be the first time the American People will be able to send a signal, as we saw in 2006 that they did with george bush, where they had enough with the war, they had enough with the economy, they took the house away from republicans, they unelected a lot of folks, and i think thats the trend line i see happening going into this fall. Well, look at the local races we saw recently in the state of virginia, look at what happened to roy moore in the state of virginia and alabama. It looks to me as though in a whole host of significant races in 2018, if the Republican Party continues to tie itself to donald trump, they may well be facing a disaster. They very well may be. And you know what . Youve gotta learn from the school of hard knocks cause thats what politics is all about. If you want to go down this road, you want to continue down this road, you do not want to and i agree with the advice you just gave ive given this advice, ive given it to folks inside the white house. So again, its personal. At what point, when the party will not listen to people like you, and its relevant here that youre african american, the Republican Party is not noted right now for its sensitivity. It has nothing to do with that, its not about, oh, bgcgmggfigpubliign who inspired in me not just a sense of service, but a sense of responsibility to my community, and what we can do to help the least. Is it time for more and more republicans, who are minded like you and which are, frankly, disgusted by what theyre seeing from donald trump in the white house, to actually say they want no part of electoral politics right now . Im thinking of senatorjeff flake, for example, who is outspoken in his criticism of donald trump, said recently, there are times when we must risk our careers in favour of our principles and now is such a time, and he, realising that because of his criticism, he was not going to get the republican nomination to refight in his seat in arizona, hes walked away, hes quit. And i think thats unfortunate and ive said so, ive told him that. Even though, look, if what youre saying, he wrote a great book on this, and if you really believe these founding principles hold true, then you stay in the fight. What good is it to walk away and to lessen the authority of your voice, even though you may lose your primary. Thats called making a principled stand. No, its not, in my view, its not. Heres another thing he said when the next generation, says senator flake, asks us, why didnt you do something, why didnt you speak up, what are we going to say . Speaking up is one thing, walking away is something different. My attitude is you are a current sitting United States senator whos drawn a very bright line with this president , as has senator corker, tennessee, drawn a very, very bright line with this president , so youre looking at your re election prospects and they dont look good. What do you do . What i do is i stay in the fight, i stay in the fight to make the point because ive got the authority of my office, ive got the fire of my positions to stand in that and go, you know what . Im going to use my re election, im going to use my primary as the battleground for what i believe, in and i may go down in flames, but im going to make the principle point that this should not stand. And who knows, who knows . You just may win but if one looks at recent internal republican battles in the state of alabama, for example, and what we now see unfolding in arizona, where the latest news is thatjoe arpaio, of all people, the former sheriff, the man who was convicted in a federal court of involvement in racial profiling. We will see if he makes it to the primary. These are the kinds of people that grassroots republicans want to fight the party cause in national elections. We dont know that because they havent named a nominee for the party. Joe arpaios announced that hes running, but that doesnt mean that hes going to win the primary. There are other people who are in that race, some supported by trump people, some supported by establishment types. Well see how this plays out. Are we not seeing and im going to create a phrase here the Steve Bannonisation of the Republican Party. This is a man, and of course, hes been in the news recently because of the fire and fury book by michael wolff, and what weve learned about bannon and of course, hes now fallen out big time with donald trump, but bannons point is that he is an insurgent, he is a nationalistic populist and he believes his movement is bigger than donald trump, and that whatever happens to his relationship with trump, it is the bannon politics of insurgency that will ultimately drive the Republican Party. Well, clearly, theres not a whole lot of life in that. Why do you say that . Did he elect roy moore . Is roy moore going to the United States senate . No, hes not. Now, but lets see how many bannon acolytes are in the race. The bannon acolytes are dropping out of the race, theyre second guessing their runs because theyve watched this thing collapse around them. You have to understand the truth of the matter is bannon has no base, his base is Donald Trumps base and Donald Trumps base is with donald trump, not with steve bannon. So these candidates that theyre putting up and promoting out there looked at what happened in alabama and they went, ah. | dont think so. So theyre already beginning to back out of the idea of running, this is not going to go. Youre not going to see a situation where steve bannon is going to be promoting candidates on one side and Donald Trumps going to be promoting candidates on the other. Thats a mismatch that wont even stand the test at all because bannon has no base. What bannon has, though, is a populist idea that has taken hold that trump has used to some degree, but even there, donald trump has sort of created this own space for himself. Let me ask you a broader question about race in america today, and its something ive seen discussed in recent hours in the United States quite a lot the idea is that if the democratic party, for the next president ial election, comes out with an out and out left wing candidate, maybe a Bernie Sanders or elizabeth warren, and they are running against donald trump, there are people in this country who believe that whatever misgivings people have about the perception donald trump is racist, they would rather vote for a racist than for somebody who they believe, with their left wing policies, might affect their economic position and their pocketbook. Is that something that you believe . I think thats something thats a fair. I think thats a fair assessment. America is not a Progressive Left country at its core. Were very puritanical in many respects. But is White America instinctively, in your view, dangerously racist . No, thats a silly comment to make, thats crazy. 55 t,§a;1§£afl§4§§§f you do not seem to be depressed that roughly a third of the American People are still die hard supporters of a man who you describe as a racist. I dont get depressed because ive got my bottle of gin, i get through the day, you know so, no. Im having fun with it i think that where youre going with that is just part of a stereotyped view of america that is. You just need to get over it. Before we end, just a couple of quickfire questions about news events of recent days, one weve discussed already, alluded to the publication of fire and fury by michael wolff. Now, Fact Checkers have had a field day because not everything in that book is accurate, but nonetheless, the picture it paints of the Trump White House and the views of people around trump that this man is not a suitable president of the United States, not competent to do the job does that worry you . Oh, it does, it worries a lot of people, and thats why it was so important coming in, and i did a little bit of work on the transition before the president s team blew it up, it was so important to get the right people in the white house, to get the right people in place to help support. Look, we understood, if nothing else, that you had an individual coming into the oval office who had no political established order. He had no political team, he had no real Political Base in washington with which to work, no relationships on capitol hill, no relationships on k street, which is sort of the financial fundraising part of politics, and so the idea was to give him a team of people and put in place a team of people, which is why the positions of secretary of state and department of defence and cia was so important in these critical areas, to have good, competent people there who the president would listen to. The problem, as weve discovered, is that the president does not listen well, and the president in his own way is his own man, and i get that, but when you dont have the strength of a political structure to help you navigate washington and the responsibilities of the office, this is what you get. And we have to end in a moment. Im amazed by your cheerful demeanour throughout this interview. As a seniorfigure in the Republican Party, the party of Abraham Lincoln and ronald reagan, do you not feel that right now, your party is on a one way path to self destruction . Look, i think my party has not had to deal with a lot of things that we need to deal with since reagan left office, to be honest. This is a just donald trump. The issues that are roiling inside the gop have been there since, really, the late 80s, early 90s. This idea of who we are as republicans, republican versus conservative. Are they the same, are they different . This idea of what we believe, what we stand for, weve watched this party, to my great frustration, again prompted by this administration, move closer towards a Blind Loyalty to putin and russia. What the hell is that . I mean, whered that come from . We were the party that labelled them the evil empire. Doesnt it come back to cynicism . It comes back to the fact that donald trump has delivered massive tax cuts for the wealthy and for corporate america. He has delivered. But all that was in place before those things happened. What youre talking about is post administration. Hes already been elected and they move those balls that was transformative before, that was something that took place. They changed the Party Platform under trumps team to sort of embrace a little bit more of this idea of putin and russia. So what im saying is its not something. Its notjust tax cuts for the rich. This is an ideological shift for the party that has nothing to do with tax cuts. But you didnt actually address my question if this continues, is the party facing self destruction . No, i dont think so. I think the party, like any other organisation, is going to go yes, theres going to be rips and tears and well wait to see what emerges out of it. Thats why i stay in, this is why the fight is important to me. Im not giving up my space, im not walking away from the station i have. I think these ideals and these values still matter, and i think theyre worth fighting for. And we have to end there. But Michael Steele, thank you for being on hardtalk. Yeah, no, my pleasure. Thanks a lot. Well, theres been some significant accumulations of snow across parts of Northern Ireland and scotland, the far north of england, and we continue to see wintry showers, snow showers, through the course of the night, early into wednesday so thats prompted the met office to issue an amber warning for parts of south west scotland, Northern Ireland, for this combination of snow and ice. Very windy too during the overnight period. Gale force winds, particularly across irish sea coasts in towards the south west for a time. Plenty of snow showers continuing across scotland, Northern Ireland and into Northern England that accumulate and continue to tot up. Across the south, some dry interludes in fact, particularly across the south east, but wherever you are its going to be a chilly start to wednesday. Wednesday itself looks like to be another cold and a windy one, there will be wintry showers again but also some good spells of sunshine and increasing amounts of sunshine as we head on into the afternoon. But plenty of wintry showers, snow showers across scotland and Northern Ireland to begin the day. Strong winds too so therell be some drifting of snow, blizzard conditions, take extra care on the roads, watch out for icy stretches as well. The same too for parts of Northern England but the further south that we head, fewer showers through the morning period. A few running through the cheshire gap there in towards the pennines and the odd wintry showers across the higher ground, the moors of south west england. But elsewhere it should be dry, chilly and bright with some sunshine through the morning. Those showers continue across many northern and western areas, but through the afternoon, like i mentioned, increasing amounts of sunshine for england and wales with most of the showers confined to scotland and Northern Ireland, the far north of england with snow amounts continuing to tot up here. It will be cold if you factor in the wind, subzero feeling temperatures in the north. But to the south with the sunshine, it shouldnt be too bad. Now, onto wednesday night, this is the area of low pressure will the next hazard to our shores. Its going to bring a spell of wet and very windy weather to all areas. Across the north of this rain band, were likely to see a spell of snow for Northern Ireland, Northern England, central, southern scotland, which could be heavy for a time. Severe gales sweeping through england and wales along with that rain but it clears out quite quickly through thursday morning, and in fact, into thursday afternoon, and improving picture, the winds falling lighter. Likely to therell be fewer showers, most in the north and west, against no on the hills, but some good spells of some joint further south and east. But that area of low pressure is cause some disruption, the severe gales, heavy rain and also the snow, which could fall across southern areas, so keep tuned to your bbc local radio. And then into friday itself, its looking quieter. Not as strong, those winds. Still blustery across the north and the west where therell be most of the snow showers. Good sunny spells further south and east. Im rico hizon in singapore. This is newsday on the bbc. The headlines. 20 countries meet to step up pressure on north korea. But key players, china and russia, skip the talks. Is steve bannon set to testify to a grand jury . The us russia probe reportedly turns its sights towards trumps former chief strategist. Im Babita Sharma in london. Also in the programme a californian couple is charged with torturing their 13 children. 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