Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20180116

Dc. Im stephen sackur. New year, same old donald trump. Not a day goes by without any new media storm over a president ial comment, tweet or announcement that had democrats decrying him at an fit for office and republican, well. What . What do they feel and do about their de fa cto do they feel and do about their de facto party leader . My guest is Michael Steele, a former chairman of the Republican National committee should the party stand with or dump trump . Michael steele, welcome to hardtalk. It is great to have you here. I want to ta ke it is great to have you here. I want to take you back to that date in november 2016 when it became clear donald trump was going to be the next president of the United States. For you as a long and loyal republican, how did you feel . I guess the emotion would be, here we go. Lets strap in and get ready. I had worked with donald trump in the past, i know what kind of campaign he had run over the past 1. 5 years. I had predict the his eventual win early on. But not in neutral fashion. Early on. But not in neutralfashion. This is a quote from you after you observed one of the later president ial debates. He said, i was damn near puking during the debate. Exactly. That is how i react to it, but had nothing to do with his ability to connect with voters in a way that they would several months later go into the ballot box and vote for him. That is what a lot of the establishment and media and elsewhere did not understand fully the time was that as much as we were hairon fire about the time was that as much as we were hair on fire about a lot of things that you were saying, beneath the surface, he was connecting with people in a way in which they found themselves drawn to him. I step out and observe that and what i realised was Donald Trumps voters were once his audience. So these were people he had been able to cultivate and develop a relationship with over a long period of time before he ran for president. And it should be said that you ran the Republican Party National Committee at a time when mitt romney was becoming a front runner. Right up to john was becoming a front runner. Right up tojohn mccain. The 2012 election where republicans simply couldnt find a viable winner, and donald trump. I disagree with that concept. They we re i disagree with that concept. They were certainly viable in the sense that they ran competitive campaigns, the problem was that the last little bit, as you know in politics, is about connection. You can have the best papers in the world. Hillary clinton is a great example of it. Policy, but at the end of the day, its that connection with the voters that has to be genuine enough to pull you through, and that was something that was missing at the end of both of those campaigns. Which brings us to the present day. If you are saying to me that despite your reservations, which had from the very beginning, you could see that this guy had a special ability to connect. Let us bring it to the present and ask, what on earth do you think donald trump thinks he is doing with the messages hes putting out day by day right now . Let us start with the first and central quote of this period, and that is his remark to a Bipartisan Group of Congress People that he couldnt understand why so many people from shithole countries were able to come to the United States. The bays have stayed with him throughout. That is it will stop thatis throughout. That is it will stop that is exactly, his cornerstone for anything he is able to do. He could calculate, going into 2018 with 38 . Democrats are put no one b so far who can keep me there. And he believes, and i believe and it is public a sad commentary in the main is ifan public a sad commentary in the main is if an election is held today, given the options that are voters have, he would be in a better position to win than not. And that, again, speaks to the fact that donald trump, for Everything Else that people dont like about him, but that core constituency that stays with him, thats a good solid base to start from. And so he appeals to them. Both comments appeals to them. Both comments appeal to those voters. He appeals to that basic instinct. You are that relative rarity in the Republican Party, a senior voice from the black american community. In your view, is donald trump a racist . Yeah, ithink racist . Yeah, i think he has racist tendency. He uses race as a weapon to divide and conquer his opponents, to divide and conquer his opponents, to shift the narrative do something else. Personally, how do you feel about that . It offers. Bothersome. You are black american. I didnt vote for the man, so what are the mean. You didnt vote for him . No, no. The former chief nu were forced refused to vote. Since before the election, no. Because i could not. I have a certain value set, i have certain principles and have a certain way i look at the kind of leaders i want to represent me, and are keeping to understand here, and this is a critical moment on the heels of this recent controversy with the president , that this is no longer about donald trump. We need to get over this shock and awe with donald trump. Guess what he said today. What does this mean . It doesnt mean anything. He is a 71 year old man who was born out of a certain period of time. You are suggesting we normalised the fa ct you are suggesting we normalised the fact that a racist is sitting in the white house. We had an election. There is no peat and proceedings, no 25th amendment proceedings, this will revolve itself at the ballot box in 2020. The American People have a decision to make it that time. Whether Michael Steele fill up a certain way 01 Michael Steele fill up a certain way or someone Michael Steele fill up a certain way or someone else feel the certain way, you can just or someone else feel the certain way, you canjust talk or someone else feel the certain way, you can just talk about it. The key thing is this is less about donald trump and more about the American People, a reflection of us and the question becomes, is this a reflection that we want to continue to project . We will get to the American People and the nation after we talk more about the Republican Party. Let us remind ourselves, you speak to me as a former chief of the Republican National committee. What do you make of the responses to this particular outrage, the use of the word, it is offensive but i would use it, shithole. 0ther offensive but i would use it, shithole. Other things we could talk about. What i want to know is what you make of the reaction of the leadership of the Republican Party on capitol hill . It is disappointing. The reaction is disappointing beyond any measure. You wont see any Real Movement against donald trump inside the gop until his numbers change inside the gop. You have to keep in mind that members of congress in a particular way, they look at their congressional districts. Donald trump is at 60 plus in their districts. They are not quoted god gets that number. I dont want to be primary ina gets that number. I dont want to be primary in a primary election. They dont want to be in a situation where the president is using the hammer of his office, as we have seen hammer of his office, as we have seen him do. My seen him do. My mind is being bobbled, but you are saying that the top echelon of the Republican Party is happy to yoke itself to a racist as long as they believe that that is in their political self interest. Why are you sitting here, shocked by it . Didnt she watched the 2016 election . You watched Party Leaders admit, yes, what he said was racist, but we can still work with him. So what you have two get over your shock and step back and understand the politics that is beneath the surface. It is no stranger. We have seen surface. It is no stranger. We have seen this in your own country, great britain, when you look at the shop and or the next day brexit. You have two understand where people are coming from and you have to understand what motivates and move the Political Leadership that represents those people. At the end of the day, politics is that the call. Even on that cynical premise, i still. It is fact. You can also argue in the world of values and morality, it is as well. Even either bases you have presented the argument, i still dont understand why the Republican Party is in lockstep still with donald trump. If one looks at basic facts about tomography in the United States. What do you think will happen at this point . What would you recommend would happen at this point . Meaningful distance between themselves and donald trump. How can they do that . Mr president , the way you id dealing with these issues, like immigration, is utterly unacceptable. And then what . And when he goes. So . What do you do then . He is the one who has to sign whatever legislation. If he doesnt find the legislation. If he doesnt find the legislation that she wanted it passed, or take you are published . Going back to your notion of what is in their electoral self interest, you have the Fastest Growing demographic in the United States today, being the latina hispanic community. They look at a president who on issues like building the wall. They voted 30 for him in 2016. I havent seen the polling, but given everything that had gone before, and certainly with respect to hispanic and the issue of the back end, the policy issue, im saying, again, this doesnt follow any particular logical pattern. Thats the thing thatis logical pattern. Thats the thing that is so frustrating about this, because the voters themselves, thats why i go back to this. I give speeches all the time. Everyone is upset about donald trump. He is a reflection of us, a reflection of where we are. You say, what could we do, as politicians or political commentators such as yourself these days. One thing you could do, if i can make it personal, you could quit the Republican Party until donald trump. Why would i do that . Your party is backing a man who you believe to be a racist. I could leave and quit and become like everybody else and leave so i could stay inside to fight for my party. There is no fight, who have given up. You save there is nothing you can do. You are talking about what our legislators going to do . They are not going to impeach the man, that is not going to happen. Get that out of your head. They will not invoke the 25th amendment where they write a letter saying the president is incompetent to serve. That is not going to happen. The question becomes, how do you get through and get subsidy policy done if you can, and how do you, to your point, and look, i dont want to give the impression that i dont appreciate what you say. I do. The question is there is only so much of this that is going to get itself worked out now. That is what elections too. This november will be the first time the American People will be able to send a signal, as we saw in key 2006 with george bush, they had enough with the war and the economy, they took the house away from republicans, they are neglected a lot of folks, and that is the trendline i see happening. Recently in a state of virginia, look at what happened. It looks to me as though in a whole host of significant races in 2018, if the Republican Party continues to tie itself to donald trump, they may well be facing a disaster. A very male very well may be. You have to learn from the school of ha rd have to learn from the school of hard knocks because that is what politics is all about. If you want to go down this road, you do not wa nt to go down this road, you do not want to, and i agree with the advice he just gave, i want to, and i agree with the advice hejust gave, i have want to, and i agree with the advice he just gave, i have given this advice, i have given to folks inside the white house. It is personal. At what point, when the party will not listen to people like you, and it is relevant that you are african american, they are not noted for its sensitivity. It has nothing to do with that, it is not i am it has nothing to do with that, it is notiama it has nothing to do with that, it is not i am a black man, therefore i had to step away. Ira became a republican because of men like Frederick Douglass because of men like Martin Luther king and others and certainly Abraham Lincoln, the Founder Robert party. I became a republican because of men like ronald reagan, who inspired in me not just a sense ronald reagan, who inspired in me notjust a sense of ronald reagan, who inspired in me not just a sense of service, ronald reagan, who inspired in me notjust a sense of service, but ronald reagan, who inspired in me not just a sense of service, but a sense of responsibility to my community, and what we can do to help the least. Is it time for more republicans, who are minded like you and frankly disgusted by what they are seeing from donald trump in the white house to actually say they want no part of electoral politics right now . Im thinking of Senatorjeff Flake for example who is outspoken in his criticism of donald trump, said recently there are times when we must risk all careers in favour of our principles and now is such a time, and he, realising because of his criticising, he was not going to get the nomination i think thats unfortunate and ive said so, ive told him that. Even though, look, if what youre saying, hiroa great though, look, if what youre saying, hiro a great book on this, and if you really believe these founding principles hold true, you stay in the fight. What good is it to walk away and to lessen the authority of your voice, even though you may lose your voice, even though you may lose your primary . Thats called making a principled stand. No, its not. Heres another thing he said, when the next generation, said senator fla ke, the next generation, said senator flake, asks us, why didnt you do something, why didnt you speak up, what are you going to say . Speaking up what are you going to say . Speaking up is one thing, walking away is something different. My attitude is youre a current sitting United States senator who is drawn a very bright line with this president , as has senator corker from tennessee, drawn a very bright line with this president , so youre looking at your re election prospects and they dont look good, what do you do . What i do isi look good, what do you do . What i do is i stay in the fight, i stay in the fight to make the point because ive got the authority of my office, ive got the authority of my office, ive got the fire of my positions to stand in that and go, you know what, im going to use my real election, im going to use my real election, im going to use my primary as the battleground for what i believe in andi battleground for what i believe in and i may go down in flames but im going to make the principled point that this should not stand, and who knows, who knows, you just may win. But if one looks at recent internal republican battles in the state of alabama for example, and what we now see unfolding in arizona, where the latest news is thatjoe are payet of all people, the former sheriff, the man who was convicted in a federal court of involvement in racial profiling, these are the kinds of people that grassroots republicans wa nt to people that grassroots republicans want to fight for what the party calls national elections. We dont know that because they havent named a nominee for the party, joe has said hes going to run but that doesnt mean he will win the primary, there are other people in that race, some supported by trump people, some supported by the establishment types, we will see how this plays out. Are we not seen, im going to create a phrase of this, the Steve Bannonisation of the Republican Party, hes been in the news recently because the Michael Wolff book, fire and fury, and what weve seen with bannon and hes fallen out with donald trump, but his point is hes an insurgent, a nationalistic populist and he believes his movement is bigger than donald trump and whatever happens to his relationship with donald trump its the bannon politics of insurgency that will ultimately drive the Republican Party. Clearly theres not a whole lot of life in that. Why do you say that . Did he elect roy moore, is roy moore going to the us senate . No hes not. Elect roy moore, is roy moore going to the us senate . No hes notfi elect roy moore, is roy moore going to the us senate . No hes not. C how many bannon acolytes go forward. Bannon acolytes are second guessing their runs because they have watched this collapse. You have to understand the truth of the matter is bannon has no base, his base is Donald Trumps base and Donald Trumps base is with donald trump, not with steve bannon so these candidates that they are putting up and promoting out there looked at what happened in alabama and they went, i dont think so. There are already beginning to back out of the idea of running, this is not going to go. Youre not going to see a situation where steve bannon is going to be promoting candidates on one side and donald trump is going to be promoting candidates on the other, thats a mismatch that werent even stand the test at all because bannon has no base. What bannon has, though, is a populist idea that has taken hold that trump has used to some degree, but even there, donald trump has created this own space bought himself. Let me ask you a broader question about race in America Today and its something ive seen discussed in recent hours in the United States quite a lot, the idea is that if the Democratic Party for the next president ial election comes out with an out and out left wing candidate, maybe a Bernie Sanders or elizabeth warren, and they are running against donald trump, there are people in this country who believe that whatever misgivings people have about the perception donald trump is racist, they would rather vote for a racist than for somebody who they believe with their left wing policies might affect their economic position and their pocketbook. Is that something that you believe . I think thats something thats a fair. I think thats a fair assessment. Americas not a Progressive Left country at its core. Were very puritanical in many respects. Is White America instinct of the in your view dangerously racist . No, thats a silly comment to make, thats crazy. Its a question, its not a comment. Given everything weve discussed in the last 20 minutes. Im going to project all people are racist like donald trump thats silly, next question. That is silly you dont seemed depressed that roughly a third of the American People are still diehard supporters of a man who you describe as a racist. Still diehard supporters of a man who you describe as a racistlj who you describe as a racist. |j dont get depressed because i got my bottle of june, dont get depressed because i got my bottle ofjune, i get through the day, you know im having fun with it where youre going with that is just part of a stereotyped view of america that is. You just need to get over it. Before we end just a couple of quickfire questions about news events of recent days, one weve discussed already and alluded to, the publication of fire and fury by Michael Wolff. Fact checkers have had a field day because not everything in that book is accurate but nonetheless the picture it paints of the Trump White House and the views of people around trump that this man is not a suitable president of the United States, not competent to do the job, does that worry you . Oh, it does, it worries a lot of people and thats why it was so lot of people and thats why it was so important coming in, and i did a little bit of work on the transition before the president s team blew it up, it was so important to get the right people in the white house, get the right people in place to help support. We understood, if nothing else, that you had an individual coming into the oval office who had no political established order. He had no political team, he had no real Political Base in washington with which to work, no relationships on capitol hill, no relationships on k street, which is sort of the financial fundraising part of politics so the idea was to give him a team of people and put in place a tea m a team of people and put in place a team of people, which is why the positions of secretary of state and department of defence and cia was so important in these critical areas, to have good, competent people there who the president would listen to. The problem, as weve discovered, is the president does not listen well and the president in his own way is his own man, and i get that, but when you dont have the strength of a political structure to help you navigate the washington and the responsibilities of the office, this is what you get. And we have to end ina is what you get. And we have to end in a moment but im amazed by your cheerful demeanour throughout this interview. As a senior figure cheerful demeanour throughout this interview. As a seniorfigure in cheerful demeanour throughout this interview. As a senior figure in the Republican Party, the party of abraham Republican Party, the party of abra ham lincoln Republican Party, the party of Abraham Lincoln and ronald reagan, do you not feel that right now your party is on a 1 way path to self destruction . Party is on a 1 way path to selfdestruction . Look, ithink my party has not had to deal with a lot of things that we need to deal with since reagan left office to be honest. This is a just donald trump. The issues that are boiling inside the gop have been there since really the gop have been there since really the late 80s, early nineties. This idea of who we are as republicans. Republican versus conservative. Are be the same, are they different . The idea of what we believe, what we stand for, weve watched this party, to my great frustration, again prompted by this administration, move closer towards a Blind Loyalty to putin and russia. What the hell is that . Where has that come from . We were the party that label that the evil empire. Doesnt big comeback to cynicism . Donald trump has delivered massive tax cuts for corporate america. He has delivered. All that was in place before those things happened. What youre talking about is post administration. Hes already been elected and they move those balls down the track but that conversation about russia in particular, that was transformative before, about russia in particular, that was tra nsformative before, that about russia in particular, that was transformative before, that was something that took place. They changed the Party Platform under trumps team to sort of embrace a little bit more of this idea of putin and russia. So what im saying is its not something. Its not just tax cuts for the rich, this is an ideological shift for the party that has nothing to do with tax cuts. But you didnt actually address my question, if this continues, is the party facing self destruction . Continues, is the party facing selfdestruction . No, i dont think so. I think the party, like any other organisation, yes, theres going to be ripped and tears and well wait to see what the mergers out of it. Thats why are they in, thats why the fight is important to me. Im not giving up my eustachian, im not giving up. The value still matter and thats what were fighting for. Michael steele, we have to end there, but thank you for being on hardtalk. My pleasure. Hello there. I think some people might welcome the change to the weather this week from what we had last week grey, damp, drizzly conditions. This week, it is looking colder. Certainly were getting our air sourced from the arctic, from greenland. Its going to bring strong winds, sunshine, and showers. Some of these showers will continue to be quite frequent, as they will be through the course of the night, and early on into tuesday. With snow falling over the Higher Ground of the north, even some wintriness down to lower levels. To the south, largely of rain. On tuesday itself, looking colder than it has been. Windy, as well, and there will be a mixture of sunshine and showers. Some of these will be heavy and frequent, most of them in the north and the west of the uk. Watch out for ice first thing, as well, across parts of scotland, northern ireland, and into north west england. Therell be accumulating snow on the hills. Some wintriness down to lower levels. Add on the wind, its going to be quite a wild morning. There could be some ice, as well, across parts of northern and western wales. But i think, to the south of here, these showers should be mainly of rain, just maybe a little bit of wintriness over the very highest hills. But, for east anglia into the east midlands and the south east, a largely dry start. But chilly wherever you are, if you factor in that wind. And then, throughout the day, its going to be a blustery one. West or north west winds will be touching gale force in exposure, blowing in plenty of showers, as you can see here, most of them in the north and the west. Snow, maybe even blizzard conditions, with accumulating snow over the Higher Ground in the north. If you factor in the wind, its going to feel more like sub zero in that wind across central and northern areas, but at least some places will have the sunshine to compensate. On wednesday, fewer showers. They will be most frequent across the north and north west corner of the country. Again, accumulating snow over the hills, wintry down to lower levels, and some good, lengthy spells of sunshine for parts of england and wales. Temperatures of 3 7 degrees. Now, things get quite interesting as we head into the middle of the week. We look out to the atlantic to the next area of low pressure. It looks like its going to be a deepening area of low pressure, and could bring a significant spell of gales, maybe even severe gales, to england and wales. And to its northern flank, in the cold air, we could see some significant snow through central southern scotland. So either where you get the gales or the snow in the north, its likely there could be some disruption possible to this system, so keep tuned to your bbc local radio. But the good news is it will hurtle through quite quickly, and in fact, for thursday morning, those winds will have died down, the snow will have eased away. Not a bad day for many central, southern, and eastern areas. Plenty of sunshine, further blustery showers across the north and the west. And things look like theyve calmed down slightly as we head on in towards the end of the week and into the weekend, but remaining on the cold side. Hello. This is the briefing. Im sally bundock. 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