Dc. Im stephen sackur. New year, same old donald trump. Not a day goes by without any new media storm over a president ial comment, tweet or announcement that had democrats decrying him at an fit for office and republican, well. What . What do they feel and do about their de fa cto do they feel and do about their de facto party leader . My guest is Michael Steele, a former chairman of the Republican National committee should the party stand with or dump trump . Michael steele, welcome to hardtalk. It is great to have you here. I want to ta ke it is great to have you here. I want to take you back to that date in november 2016 when it became clear donald trump was going to be the next president of the United States. For you as a long and loyal republican, how did you feel . I guess the emotion would be, here we go. Lets strap in and get ready. I had worked with donald trump in the past, i know what kind of campaign he had run over the past 1. 5 years. I had predict the his eventual win early on. But not in neutral fashion. Early on. But not in neutralfashion. This is a quote from you after you observed one of the later president ial debates. He said, i was damn near puking during the debate. Exactly. That is how i react to it, but had nothing to do with his ability to connect with voters in a way that they would several months later go into the ballot box and vote for him. That is what a lot of the establishment and media and elsewhere did not understand fully the time was that as much as we were hairon fire about the time was that as much as we were hair on fire about a lot of things that you were saying, beneath the surface, he was connecting with people in a way in which they found themselves drawn to him. I step out and observe that and what i realised was Donald Trumps voters were once his audience. So these were people he had been able to cultivate and develop a relationship with over a long period of time before he ran for president. And it should be said that you ran the Republican PartyNational Committee at a time when mitt romney was becoming a front runner. Right up to john was becoming a front runner. Right up tojohn mccain. The 2012 election where republicans simply couldnt find a viable winner, and donald trump. I disagree with that concept. They we re i disagree with that concept. They were certainly viable in the sense that they ran competitive campaigns, the problem was that the last little bit, as you know in politics, is about connection. You can have the best papers in the world. Hillary clinton is a great example of it. Policy, but at the end of the day, its that connection with the voters that has to be genuine enough to pull you through, and that was something that was missing at the end of both of those campaigns. Which brings us to the present day. If you are saying to me that despite your reservations, which had from the very beginning, you could see that this guy had a special ability to connect. Let us bring it to the present and ask, what on earth do you think donald trump thinks he is doing with the messages hes putting out day by day right now . Let us start with the first and central quote of this period, and that is his remark to a Bipartisan Group of Congress People that he couldnt understand why so many people from shithole countries were able to come to the United States. The bays have stayed with him throughout. That is it will stop thatis throughout. That is it will stop that is exactly, his cornerstone for anything he is able to do. He could calculate, going into 2018 with 38 . Democrats are put no one b so far who can keep me there. And he believes, and i believe and it is public a sad commentary in the main is ifan public a sad commentary in the main is if an election is held today, given the options that are voters have, he would be in a better position to win than not. And that, again, speaks to the fact that donald trump, for Everything Else that people dont like about him, but that core constituency that stays with him, thats a good solid base to start from. And so he appeals to them. Both comments appeals to them. Both comments appeal to those voters. He appeals to that basic instinct. You are that relative rarity in the Republican Party, a senior voice from the black american community. In your view, is donald trump a racist . Yeah, ithink racist . Yeah, i think he has racist tendency. He uses race as a weapon to divide and conquer his opponents, to divide and conquer his opponents, to shift the narrative do something else. Personally, how do you feel about that . It offers. Bothersome. You are black american. I didnt vote for the man, so what are the mean. You didnt vote for him . No, no. The former chief nu were forced refused to vote. Since before the election, no. Because i could not. I have a certain value set, i have certain principles and have a certain way i look at the kind of leaders i want to represent me, and are keeping to understand here, and this is a critical moment on the heels of this recent controversy with the president , that this is no longer about donald trump. We need to get over this shock and awe with donald trump. Guess what he said today. What does this mean . It doesnt mean anything. He is a 71 year old man who was born out of a certain period of time. You are suggesting we normalised the fa ct you are suggesting we normalised the fact that a racist is sitting in the white house. We had an election. There is no peat and proceedings, no 25th amendment proceedings, this will revolve itself at the ballot box in 2020. The American People have a decision to make it that time. Whether Michael Steele fill up a certain way 01 Michael Steele fill up a certain way or someone Michael Steele fill up a certain way or someone else feel the certain way, you can just or someone else feel the certain way, you canjust talk or someone else feel the certain way, you can just talk about it. The key thing is this is less about donald trump and more about the American People, a reflection of us and the question becomes, is this a reflection that we want to continue to project . We will get to the American People and the nation after we talk more about the Republican Party. Let us remind ourselves, you speak to me as a former chief of the Republican National committee. What do you make of the responses to this particular outrage, the use of the word, it is offensive but i would use it, shithole. 0ther offensive but i would use it, shithole. Other things we could talk about. What i want to know is what you make of the reaction of the leadership of the Republican Party on capitol hill . It is disappointing. The reaction is disappointing beyond any measure. You wont see any Real Movement against donald trump inside the gop until his numbers change inside the gop. You have to keep in mind that members of congress in a particular way, they look at their congressional districts. Donald trump is at 60 plus in their districts. They are not quoted god gets that number. I dont want to be primary ina gets that number. I dont want to be primary in a primary election. They dont want to be in a situation where the president is using the hammer of his office, as we have seen hammer of his office, as we have seen him do. My seen him do. My mind is being bobbled, but you are saying that the top echelon of the Republican Party is happy to yoke itself to a racist as long as they believe that that is in their political self interest. Why are you sitting here, shocked by it . Didnt she watched the 2016 election . You watched Party Leaders admit, yes, what he said was racist, but we can still work with him. So what you have two get over your shock and step back and understand the politics that is beneath the surface. It is no stranger. We have seen surface. It is no stranger. We have seen this in your own country, great britain, when you look at the shop and or the next day brexit. You have two understand where people are coming from and you have to understand what motivates and move the Political Leadership that represents those people. At the end of the day, politics is that the call. Even on that cynical premise, i still. It is fact. You can also argue in the world of values and morality, it is as well. Even either bases you have presented the argument, i still dont understand why the Republican Party is in lockstep still with donald trump. If one looks at basic facts about tomography in the United States. What do you think will happen at this point . What would you recommend would happen at this point . Meaningful distance between themselves and donald trump. How can they do that . Mr president , the way you id dealing with these issues, like immigration, is utterly unacceptable. And then what . And when he goes. So . What do you do then . He is the one who has to sign whatever legislation. If he doesnt find the legislation. If he doesnt find the legislation that she wanted it passed, or take you are published . Going back to your notion of what is in their electoral self interest, you have the Fastest Growing demographic in the United States today, being the latina hispanic community. They look at a president who on issues like building the wall. They voted 30 for him in 2016. I havent seen the polling, but given everything that had gone before, and certainly with respect to hispanic and the issue of the back end, the policy issue, im saying, again, this doesnt follow any particular logical pattern. Thats the thing thatis logical pattern. Thats the thing that is so frustrating about this, because the voters themselves, thats why i go back to this. I give speeches all the time. Everyone is upset about donald trump. He is a reflection of us, a reflection of where we are. You say, what could we do, as politicians or political commentators such as yourself these days. One thing you could do, if i can make it personal, you could quit the Republican Party until donald trump. Why would i do that . Your party is backing a man who you believe to be a racist. I could leave and quit and become like everybody else and leave so i could stay inside to fight for my party. There is no fight, who have given up. You save there is nothing you can do. You are talking about what our legislators going to do . They are not going to impeach the man, that is not going to happen. Get that out of your head. They will not invoke the 25th amendment where they write a letter saying the president is incompetent to serve. That is not going to happen. The question becomes, how do you get through and get subsidy policy done if you can, and how do you, to your point, and look, i dont want to give the impression that i dont appreciate what you say. I do. The question is there is only so much of this that is going to get itself worked out now. That is what elections too. This november will be the first time the American People will be able to send a signal, as we saw in key 2006 with george bush, they had enough with the war and the economy, they took the house away from republicans, they are neglected a lot of folks, and that is the trendline i see happening. Recently in a state of virginia, look at what happened. It looks to me as though in a whole host of significant races in 2018, if the Republican Party continues to tie itself to donald trump, they may well be facing a disaster. A very male very well may be. You have to learn from the school of ha rd have to learn from the school of hard knocks because that is what politics is all about. If you want to go down this road, you do not wa nt to go down this road, you do not want to, and i agree with the advice he just gave, i want to, and i agree with the advice hejust gave, i have want to, and i agree with the advice he just gave, i have given this advice, i have given to folks inside the white house. It is personal. At what point, when the party will not listen to people like you, and it is relevant that you are african american, they are not noted for its sensitivity. It has nothing to do with that, it is not i am it has nothing to do with that, it is notiama it has nothing to do with that, it is not i am a black man, therefore i had to step away. Ira became a republican because of men like Frederick Douglass because of men like Martin Luther king and others and certainly Abraham Lincoln, the Founder Robert party. I became a republican because of men like ronald reagan, who inspired in me not just a sense ronald reagan, who inspired in me notjust a sense of ronald reagan, who inspired in me not just a sense of service, ronald reagan, who inspired in me notjust a sense of service, but ronald reagan, who inspired in me not just a sense of service, but a sense of responsibility to my community, and what we can do to help the least. Is it time for more republicans, who are minded like you and frankly disgusted by what they are seeing from donald trump in the white house to actually say they want no part of electoral politics right now . Im thinking of Senatorjeff Flake for example who is outspoken in his criticism of donald trump, said recently there are times when we must risk all careers in favour of our principles and now is such a time, and he, realising because of his criticising, he was not going to get the nomination i think thats unfortunate and ive said so, ive told him that. Even though, look, if what youre saying, hiroa great though, look, if what youre saying, hiro a great book on this, and if you really believe these founding principles hold true, you stay in the fight. What good is it to walk away and to lessen the authority of your voice, even though you may lose your voice, even though you may lose your primary . Thats called making a principled stand. No, its not. Heres another thing he said, when the next generation, said senator fla ke, the next generation, said senator flake, asks us, why didnt you do something, why didnt you speak up, what are you going to say . Speaking up what are you going to say . Speaking up is one thing, walking away is something different. My attitude is youre a current sitting United States senator who is drawn a very bright line with this president , as has senator corker from tennessee, drawn a very bright line with this president , so youre looking at your re election prospects and they dont look good, what do you do . What i do isi look good, what do you do . What i do is i stay in the fight, i stay in the fight to make the point because ive got the authority of my office, ive got the authority of my office, ive got the fire of my positions to stand in that and go, you know what, im going to use my real election, im going to use my real election, im going to use my primary as the battleground for what i believe in andi battleground for what i believe in and i may go down in flames but im going to make the principled point that this should not stand, and who knows, who knows, you just may win. But if one looks at recent internal republican battles in the state of alabama for example, and what we now see unfolding in arizona, where the latest news is thatjoe are payet of all people, the former sheriff, the man who was convicted in a federal court of involvement in racial profiling, these are the kinds of people that grassroots republicans wa nt to people that grassroots republicans want to fight for what the party calls national elections. We dont know that because they havent named a nominee for the party, joe has said hes going to run but that doesnt mean he will win the primary, there are other people in that race, some supported by trump people, some supported by the establishment types, we will see how this plays out. Are we not seen, im going to create a phrase of this, the Steve Bannonisation of the Republican Party, hes been in the news recently because the Michael Wolff book, fire and fury, and what weve seen with bannon and hes fallen out with donald trump, but his point is hes an insurgent, a nationalistic populist and he believes his movement is bigger than donald trump and whatever happens to his relationship with donald trump its the bannon politics of insurgency that will ultimately drive the Republican Party. Clearly theres not a whole lot of life in that. Why do you say that . Did he elect roy moore, is roy moore going to the us senate . No hes not. Elect roy moore, is roy moore going to the us senate . No hes notfi elect roy moore, is roy moore going to the us senate . No hes not. C how many bannon acolytes go forward. Bannon acolytes are second guessing their runs because they have watched this collapse. You have to understand the truth of the matter is bannon has no base, his base is Donald Trumps base and Donald Trumps base is with donald trump, not with steve bannon so these candidates that they are putting up and promoting out there looked at what happened in alabama and they went, i dont think so. There are already beginning to back out of the idea of running, this is not going to go. Youre not going to see a situation where steve bannon is going to be promoting candidates on one side and donald trump is going to be promoting candidates on the other, thats a mismatch that werent even stand the test at all because bannon has no base. What bannon has, though, is a populist idea that has taken hold that trump has used to some degree, but even there, donald trump has created this own space bought himself