One of the worlds biggest countries has a leader who polarises opinions, stokes nationalist sentiment, has a controversial past, and they predilection for twitter, i am thinking of course of indias Prime MinisterNarendra Modi. But are there any parallels to be drawn with americas current president . My current guess is a matter of the parliamentary chamber, Swapan Dasgupta, does this conservative ally of indias Prime Minister see any dangers in Narendra Modis populism . Swa pa n swa pan dasgupta, welcome Swapan Dasgupta, welcome to hardtalk. More than three years ago, when he came to power, mr modi was described widely around the world, and in india, ithink, as a conservative, hindu nationalists, and their populist politician, do you think he has lived up to those labels . Imrmodi you think he has lived up to those labels . I mr modi think the most important thing about when he came to power is that it was interpreted very differently by very different sections of the electorate. There we re sections of the electorate. There were certainly some who saw him as a conservative, there were some who saw him as a free marketeer. Others saw him as a free marketeer. Others saw him as a free marketeer. Others saw him as a nationalist. Some saw him asa saw him as a nationalist. Some saw him as a poor boy made good. And some people saw him as a member of the backward castes. So it really depends, swapan the backward castes. So it really depends, swa pan dasgupta the backward castes. So it really depends, Swapan Dasgupta conveyed multiple images to people. Which one is the real mr modi . I think i is all of them in some ways. A very taken in your writing, and you are an ally of mr modi, and the bjp has between the upper house of the indian parliament, but youre also a writer. I am struck by some things you have written. You said for for too long in the conservatism has been at the end of condescension and caricature, and the mr Modi Government has essentially negated the importance of entitlement. As you see modi as an anti elitist. The importance of entitlement. As you see modi as an anti elitisti think in the United States you call it outside the beltway. In india we call it the mob. That is really a set of people, perhaps privileged, perhaps indian speaking like me. You are part of this establishment. I would say i am one of the orphans. People who exactly saw themselves as entitled. And people whose aspirations centred on the congress and the gundy family, to a very large extent, modi was an unknown entity. Modi was not a delhi politician, he came from the provinces. He was provincial chief minister. He was ostracised and hounded for a loss of his views. He was treated as a complete outsider, outlander, in fact. The more you talk to moray hebe echoes and residences of the trump phenomena in america. Mr trump came after mr modi. That not argue about the chronologies, in terms of the spirit ofa man, chronologies, in terms of the spirit of a man, let us remember Donald Trumps phrase, he was going to go to washington and dreamy swamp. You are suggesting that for you that is what the last three years have been about. That is only one part of it. Not really a dispossession, but a relative marginalisation of some of those who had occupied preeminent positions. After 25 years, india got a government with a full majority. That meant a Prime Minister did not have to look over his shoulder when making decisions. And mr modi came with a track record of being a decisive, of being firm, of having a clear mind of what he wants to do. He is controversial. I was a year is polarising. We will get to be polarising. We will get to be polarising when it comes to some of the sectarian and communal issues in india injusta the sectarian and communal issues in india injust a moment the sectarian and communal issues in india in just a moment will stop the sectarian and communal issues in india injust a moment will stop i wa nt to india injust a moment will stop i want to begin by taking on board what you have just said about him coming to power attracting the outsiders in india. And suggesting to you that those who are most outside are the poorest in india. And when one looks at the delivery, in terms of Poverty Alleviation and eradication in india in the last three years, frankly, it seems to me that mr modi has been found wanting. He has achieved a lot in economic terms, but he hasnt fundamentally shifted that block of indians, some 250 million, who are living or nor below the poverty line. 250 million, who are living or nor below the poverty linelj 250 million, who are living or nor below the poverty line. I think mr modi has done a tremendous amount to actually, most important, try to make india a modern economy. What is important is the impulses which were reflected during the election, that people wanted opportunities. They we re people wanted opportunities. They were exasperated with living a shoddy, plodding life and they wa nted shoddy, plodding life and they wanted to get ahead. In the most important thing which mr modi has done any three years, and i was there be number one issue, is a frontal assault on corruption. One of those things which was really Holding India back. The image of india, plus the sheer banality comedy , inefficiencies in the system. I want to stick with the poor and was modi is doing for them. I would say to the poor, the most important thing he has done for the poor is that previously government welfare payments were siphoned off ata welfare payments were siphoned off at a very large way. Today, using technology, using a certain determination to get ahead, you have managed to have direct payments. You open to the Banking System to the poon open to the Banking System to the poor, you have opened quite a loss of. Look at the record, look at the record, when he was chief minister and today as Prime Minister of the nation, his record is of cutting benefits, cutting welfare, doing a loss for the rich in terms of favourable tax policy, doing a lot for Corporate India, but actually doing very little for the poon actually doing very little for the poor, particularly in the rural areas. And i am so struck that a former bjp, his own party, a former b] p former bjp, his own party, a former bjp finance minister is currently on a protest with poorfarmers in maharashtra state, saying quote private investor dish rinkin, agriculture is in deep distress, the Construction Industry is in the doldrums our economy is in crisis. If our economy was in that much of a crisis we would not have registered growth rates that we have had. Crisis we would not have registered growth rates that we have hadlj crisis we would not have registered growth rates that we have had. I am not saying Corporate India is in crisis. Im not saying that the upper middle class are not doing very well. I am saying that if our economy was in that sort of dire condition, as you make it out to be sometimes, or he makes to be, you would not have had repeated electoral successes for the bjp, you would not have had an entire revolution which has resulted in womens empowerment to a significant extent, you would not have had electrification of villages, which has taken place in a tremendous sort of way, which is changed and altered the lives of the quality peoples lives. Just like mr trump in the United States, those who are most keen on the Economic Reforms delivered by mr modi are the corporate and the rich. That is just a fa ct corporate and the rich. That is just afact in corporate and the rich. That is just a fact in india today. They are benefiting a day doing very well. |j think some of the corporate are resentful of the fact that the cronyism that marked some of the earlier Business Practices have been done away with, that Corporate Lending has been streamlined, that people, that corporate to have not pay back money are being punished. I think it is also dead that the discretionary powers, which some corporate is believed was their route to success, has been done away. There is far greater rule based system, which is good for some people. It is good for corporate is who dont have connections. It may not be necessarily good for the corporate is who have used political access. |j am tempted to rely on the people who make a specialism out of studying corruption in developing economies, Transparency International are one such group. Their most recent report, march this year, india still has the highest bribery rate amongst the 16 asia pacific countries that they surveyed. And nearly seven in ten indians who had access Public Services said that they had had to pay a bribe. That is this year. Yes. I think that is quite true. That there is bribery, it is still rampant. But what is important at two things. That at the top layers of government corruption has more or less completely ceased. The powers of discretion which are really at the heart of corruption, that has come down. Another two, tax compliance, which was really one of those dodgy areas of india, people just did not pay taxes, a very small number of people. Can you imagine that in two years we have had Something Like an additional 7. 8 Million People now paying taxes. It is not because there has been a sudden windfall and they have won the lottery au summit like that. It isa the lottery au summit like that. It is a greater sense of compliance. A lot of the resistance that has been coming in is because you are putting in more people to the tax. For a writer who has converted himself into a politician, you are doing a very good job of putting a positive spin on everything modi mr bing. But there are other spins to be had and some come from inside his own party says. This is talking about the so called de monetisation policy, where overnight mr modi declared that the high day nomination banknotes would be taken out of circulation. High denomination. He said it was to get rid of all the black money that was fooling around under peoples beds and elsewhere in india. But the effect has been to legitimise a loss of black money that has been moved into the Banking System and is now regarded as perfectly legitimate. He describes it as the wells largest Money Laundering scheme. Critics of mrmodi Money Laundering scheme. Critics of mr modi have quoted. He has a real point. I interviewed him not so long ago. He says it is the biggest scam of 2016. What has happened is that you had 90 of the de monetised money coming back into the banks, number one. Now regarded as legitimate. It is not legitimate any more. That money now has an address. Next more. That money now has an address. N ext ste p more. That money now has an address. Next step is for them to account for that money. It is the second step which has been very conveniently left out. Just because money is deposited into the banks doesnt make it legitimate. Had that been the case, we would not have had Money Laundering operations. Done through normal banking operations. I think what is very important is that the critics of mr modi was struck by one thing, the sheer audacity of this will stop something which takes into account 86 of the cash which was in circulation in india was de monetised. It affected every single indian. Rich, poor, everyone was affected by this decision. Why was it endorsed . Everyone suffered personal inconvenience in some way or another, some more, some less. But there was a certain determination on the part of people that the has gone too far, perhaps you need it a dose of very drastic surgery. You need it a dose of very drastic surgery. I think de monetisation, it hasnt ended corruption. For sure it hasnt. I would say that. But it is a very major step in that direction. I will take that, along with other legislation that has come along, and i think the first what india has done is that the wheels of corruption, which was rolling, and now you have managed to roll back the tide of the first time. Interesting. That to my mind is very important. Interesting that you couchitin important. Interesting that you couch it in terms of the audacity and decisiveness of mr modi. Why hasnt he been equally decisive and firm when it comes to smacking down ha rd firm when it comes to smacking down hard on what we see, from the outside, as the dangerous rise of communal sectarian hate and violence in the india of Narendra Modi . |j think mrmodi in the india of Narendra Modi . |j think mr modi has been quite clear in his mind, his personal interventions, that he sees these as a complete destruction distraction from the main task to bilby economy. People are being killed is because of their beliefs, because, for example, a muslim man happens to own a cow and some people down the street believe that he has slaughtered a cow, he is murdered for that. There have been hate crimes in india, andi there have been hate crimes in india, and i would say that, that constitutes a hate crime. That is not what mr modi would ever said. He called for a ten year moratorium. Mrmodi has called for a ten year moratorium. Mr modi has seemed to follow people who peddle hate and who celebrate when a muslim young man is murdered because he is falsely accused of slaughtering a cow. We all follow lots of people on twitter, just to get a diversity of opinion. It is irresponsible. I mean, he follows me. I suspect you do not declare a celebration when was the man is killed. No, certainly not. Look, in india we have all shades of opinion. Some of them are ugly and i think i would be the first to admit that there are certain people who believe that mr modis victory also symbolised their liberation from what they see as the scourge of secularism. And avenge history. Now, hang ona secularism. And avenge history. Now, hang on a minute. There are these people. Events in history, but you surely know more than anybody else that mr modi is seen by muslims in india and many outside as a man who still has a cloud hanging over him because of what happened in gujarat in 2002. You know that there are still serious allegations about his role as chief minister in riots which killed many, many hundreds of muslims. Given that passed, surely your advice to him, and you do speak to him, is to be as tough as he can possibly be on what you call hate crimes. But that is a phrase that he does not use. No, he does not use it. Do you think you should . I think what mr modi has to do is to make sure that the political agenda moves decisively away from these sectarian issues. That the political agenda is focused principally on the question of development, and that identity politics of such a narrative your mac narrow variety. How do you do it isa mac narrow variety. How do you do it is a question. Forgive me it is for interrupting, it is rude. But ijust want is for interrupting, it is rude. But i just want to is for interrupting, it is rude. But ijust want to air the is for interrupting, it is rude. But i just want to air the figures. There is a phrase which has developed in india in the last two yea rs of developed in india in the last two years of cow vigilantism. It is seen asa years of cow vigilantism. It is seen as a problem. I have looked at the figures, ive looked at the past seven yea rs, figures, ive looked at the past seven years, 97 of the incidence of this cow vigilantism, which has resulted in violence, sometimes the deaths of people seem to have slaughtered these animals, 97 of the cases reported under modis government, and most of them in bjp areas. So the party has a problem, mrmodi hasa areas. So the party has a problem, mr modi has a problem, and it doesnt seem to be being addressed. I think what is really important is that vigilantism is really unacceptable. It has been declared so, Party Functionaries have said so. So, Party Functionaries have said so. Whether individuals take the laws into their own hands, there must be dealt with. However, i would also emphasise one thing. That beef is one of the most emotive issues in india, it has to be handled with kid gloves. There are a lot of sensitivities which are involved there, and i think you have to play that issue very delicately. Lets unpack that little bit. Are you saying that you defend the right of indian state to categorically banned the slaughter of cattle, notjust for him does, or notjust to make it a voluntary, faith based requirement, but to say to every citizen of the state, you cannot kill and therefore it with . Such legislation exists. I know, are you saying. Most of that legislation was not passed by the bjp, it was passed by the previous government. That is part of the constitution which also says it is part of the duty of the government to protect the cow. Now, you might find this antediluvian, you might find it contrary to certain customs, but in india, asi contrary to certain customs, but in india, as i said. Well, nobody ca res india, as i said. Well, nobody cares what i think, but in india. We visit very sensitive issue in india. Andi we visit very sensitive issue in india. And i think personal taste sometimes, just like coalition, temperance, why are so many state against Alcohol Consumption we have actually enacted law against it. Coalition. But there are the sort of taboos, there are these social restrictions which are there in india, and they have to be handled with a great deal of sensitivity. With mr modi with a great deal of sensitivity. With mrmodi and with a great deal of sensitivity. With mr modi and his background, let me quote the words of gandhi himself, from 19117. The hindu religion, he said, prohibited the slaughter of cows for religion, not for the world. Any imposition from without meant compulsion, and such compulsion was repugnant to religion. Mr gandhi certainly was one of the greatest advocates of anti cow slaughter. One of the greatest advocates of anti cow slaughter. At his point was, we must not. He wanted to make it voluntary. There are states which allow cow slaughter is to take place. I think also there has to be a greater degree of realisation and accommodation on the part of people to say, look, this is what i do, which is not necessarily what you do. And i am saying that this is a social issue. It goes far beyond politics. But, at the same time, i think it is very, very important to emphasise that these is a very sensitive issue. Well, you have made that point. Is a part of indian culture. Lets leave beef to one side for the moment and end with this thought, about whether you are concerned that under mr modi there is something happening with hindu extremism, i am is something happening with hindu extremism, iam now is something happening with hindu extremism, i am now thinking of the recent murder of a journalist who spent a lot of time researching and talking about the dangers of hindu extremism, she was brutally murdered in september 2017. Are you worried that there is something happening in india today which mr modi and his tea m india today which mr modi and his team are not capable or indeed willing to combat i knew gauri very well, she was a colleague at various points. I dont think there is anything as yet to link her murder with that of hindu extremists. I think it is one of those really criminal tragedies that happen, the attack on murder of gauri lankesh. You see no link . I said there could be. However, ithink you see no link . I said there could be. However, i think the important thing is to realise, to isolate these hindu extremist as much as possible. Most of them, incidentally, operate outside the boundaries of the bjp. They find the b] p boundaries of the bjp. They find the btho boundaries of the bjp. They find the bjp to moderate and organisation. They believe in a very extreme, radical, exclusivist view of society, which goes against the beliefs and the sensitivities of most other people. At why it is your party, the party you are loyal to, so keen to offer sops to these people . For example, in the education system, one can look at states like maharashtra, where effo rts states like maharashtra, where efforts are being made to completely change the text books at your School Children are seeing and reading, to write out a whole swathes of mughal, muslim history. Why is that happening . History in india is a very contested issue. I think it is important to also realise that history has been written in one particular way. It was written earlier by the colonial masters. Subsequent lee, at various times, there has been an influence of the left on history. And i think areas need. One indian critic of what is happening says we may soon have the situation, absurd situation where stu d e nts situation, absurd situation where students in maharashtra will not be allowed to know who built the taj mahal. That is silly. I think that is silly, that is a caricature, that is silly, that is a caricature, that is not what is happening. They have been certain extreme cases of certain people saying the taj mahal shouldnt be. But i think there will be laughed out of court. What is important is to recognise that india had a certain contested history. Now, how we find a method of actually accommodating these various conflicts is really the challenge. It is an intellectual challenge, it is a challenge for historians. But to say that we should go by the earlier version of what constituted history i think is wrong. There is no question that mr modi is very popular. I mean, he has won Regional State elections in the last few months by resounding margins. His opinion poll ratings are very margins. His opinion poll ratings are very high. Do you also, as a man who is a writer and an explorer of indias social affairs, do you also have worries about what modiism is doing to india . If you think that modis success, his popularity, is due to a certain vision of india which is ably, which is monstrous, which is ably, which is monstrous, which is ably, which is monstrous, which is exclusivist, i think you are wrong. There have been certain very, very fundamental changes in india. There have been a lot of actual government which is seen to work at the grassroots. That is what really ca ps work at the grassroots. That is what really caps it. The rhetoric, his personal charm, his eloquence, et cetera, those are just the garnishing. The real substance comes from the fact that, after a long time, we have got a government which is perceived to be honest, which is committed, which delivers. We have to end their, but Swapan Dasgupta, thank you for being on hardtalk. Thank you very much. Well, its no wonder the snow has been making the headlines the last couple of days. It has been exceptionally heavy across parts of england and wales. Winter wonderland scenes like this across parts of wales. It looks beautiful, but can be so disruptive, like the snow we saw across the south east of england on monday. Now, the wintry weather continues through the overnight period across eastern coastal areas, and to some extent as well across South West Wales, into cornwall and devon. Elsewhere, its going to be a bitterly cold night under clear skies. These are towns and city values. Out in the countryside, and where theres lying snow, then easily minus double digit figures. Were going to see some freezing mist and fog, as well, to greet us for tuesday morning. So watch out for lying snow and ice, which could be quite widespread where weve got snow, and where theres been some snow melt during the course of monday. So some treacherous conditions out there on untreated roads and pavements, and on cycle routes. You can see a cold, frosty start across the board. A few wintry showers again across east anglia and these should generally ease away, same too across South West Wales and cornwall and devon. Up into the midlands, into northern england, scotland, and to some extrent Northern Ireland, a very cold and crisp start, but at least dry and bright with plenty of sunshine. Its going to be a glorious day. In fact, light winds, lots of sunshine, albeit very cold. Youll start to see a change, though, across the west, a weather front pushing into Northern Ireland, western scotland and across the far south west lifting temperatures slowly, outbreaks of rain bumping into that cold air so well start to see some outbreaks of snow across the higher ground. You can see the temperatures rising in the south west, but a very cold day in central and eastern areas. Theres the change taking place on tuesday, the first of a succession of weather fronts which will move through and then well see another one moving on wednesday, behind it colder air once again. That first weather front will eventually clear away from the south east wednesday morning. A frost free start for most places, a little bit of sunshine too, before that next weather system moves in, looks like itll bring heavy bursts of rain to england and wales. Behind it, turns brighter but colder, with some wintry showers moving in, certainly some snow in parts of Northern Ireland and in towards scotland. Double figure values in the south, but colder in the north. On into thursday, well continue to see a little bit of rain across the south, plenty of showers, and quite windy across the board in the north and the west. And a little bit colder, as well, and that cold air will start to pour southwards behind this area of low pressure. As it clears away eastwards, it will open the floodgates again to the arctic, so a much colder friday and into the weekend. This is the briefing. Im sally bundock. Our top story two years to the day after the historic paris agreement, World Leaders gather for Climate Change talks, without the american president. Snow storms across europe, as the struggle to work continues for commuters and anyone else having to travel by road, railand air. And its billed as the battle for the soul of the Republican PartySenate Election rivals make their final pitch to voters in the american state of alabama. And in Business Briefing the perils of the sharing economy we take a look at the pros and cons of electric car sharing in singapore, and bike sharing in australia. And well be live to paris to talk to one expert who says Climate Change action is leading to many new economic opportunities