Transcripts For BBCNEWS Politics Europe 20171119

This is bbc news. The headlines. President mugabe has been dismissed as the leader of the ruling zanu pf party, a day after tens of thousands marched on the streets calling for him to resign. His wife, grace, has also been expelled from the party. Police say theyre confident that a body found near swanage is that of the missing teenager, gaia pope. Gaias sister described her as beautiful, emotionally wise and intelligent. The chancellor, philip hammond, has said britain needs to build an extra 300,000 homes a year to make an impact on the housing crisis. Tests of Driverless Cars on uk roads are set to be given the go ahead in this weeks budget. Now on bbc news, politics europe. Hello and welcome to politics europe, your regular guide to the top stories in brussels and strasbourg. 0n todays programme. As the eu signs what leaders have called a historic agreement on defence co operation, are we edging closer to the much vaunted eu army . The European Parliament has been debating tax avoidance after the release of the Paradise Papers. Will the eu take action where Member States have struggled . Whats going on in poland . The European Parliament says the polish government has committed serious violations of the rule of law and could impose sanctions. Well have the latest. And as new figures on the numbers on eu nationals coming to the uk to work are released, has talk of brexitists of eu citizens leaving the uk been exaggerated . So all that to come and more in the next half an hour. And joining me for all of that is Rachel Sylvester from the times and toby young from the spectator. First, here is our guide to the latest from europe in just 60 seconds. As the great philosopher David Hasselhoff once sang, i have been looking for freedom, still it cant be found. And there was similar frustrations for the german chancellor who today missed a self imposed deadline to try to form a workable government coalition. The European Parliament named its press room in strasbourg after Daphne Caruana galizia, the maltese journalist killed last month after reporting allegations of corruption. Have reports of the brexidus been exaggerated . The latest figures from the office for National Statistics show the number of eu nationals working in the uk continues to rise. They say a cold shower is character building but its not something meps are looking to try. It was up all this week after it was announced the hot water in their offices would be permanently switched off because of health concerns. And where did you get that hat, mrjuncker . The answer. A number of academic institutions where the eu president has received honorary degrees in recent weeks. Well, lets just pick up on that element about the 0ns figures. There is talk of brexidus, figures showing that nationals fleeing the uk really arent as great as we thought, because the figures released by the 0ns suggests that the number of eu nationals working in the uk has actually reached a record high of 2. 37 million migrants. Rachel, what do you make of this . I have to say i am confused. I thought other figures from the 0ns showed a dramatic slowdown in the number of eu nationals coming here post brexit . Well, the problem is we need a lot of eu nationals working in the economy, particularly in low skilled jobs. And i think theres a real danger of expectations not being met, people voted for brexit because they were cross about particularly low skilled immigration, but actually, i think a lot of it is going to continue after brexit and the government is going to need a lot of it to continue because businesses will demand it, farmers will demand it and it is just inevitably the economy will mean it carries on. Does that mean, toby, despite these figures that actually there are real problems around the corner in terms of eu migrants going home . Well, thats often the move made by remainders who predicted that merely by voting to leave, we would trigger this mass brexidus, and as it turns out, it hasnt happened. As you say, theres a Record Number of eu nationals currently working in the uk over 100,000 more there were this time last year including more in the nhs. So they moved to, say, oh, well, yes, it hasnt yet because we havent left yet but it might happen when we leave. One thing we do learn is that the people coming now, mostly the biggest increase is in bulgarians and romanians which rather suggests its low skilled workers who are coming here and maybe doctors, professionals, others are thinking, you know what i dont think so . I think there are now more doctors, more eu nationals working as doctors here as ofjune, 2017, than there were injune, 2016. So that doesnt seem to be happening either. The way in which remainers present their case is by talking about the numbers leaving without taking into account the numbers arriving. Its exactly the same sleight of hand they accused boris of in calculating the 350 million a week figure, it wasnt a net figure, it was about outflows and not inflows. If you include inflows in the calculation, turns out net there are more eu nationals working here than there ever have been before. Rachel, just a sleight of hand . No, i think the issue more is that the people who voted for brexit are going to be furious because they feel they voted to bring down immigration and theyll feel betrayed by the brexiteers who promised that. Isnt there already upward pressure on wages . Arent we seeing low skilled jobs better paid than they were, because there are fewer unskilled migrants beginning to come in. But didnt they vote on what they perceived to be too many people coming . Even though those people were needed for the economy. Thats the argument the government has got to end. Well see where the figures go, of course. This week was described as historic by one eu Foreign Policy chief as the eu moved closer to deeper defence integration between Member States. The Permanent Structured Co operation pact, or pesco for short, should come into force next month. 23 countries have declared theyll take part so far, with portugal and the Irish Republic eventually expected to also sign on. 0nly denmark, malta, and, of course, the uk will remain unaffiliated. The pact was originally proposed by france and germany, keen to bolster the eu after the brexit vote. The agreement requires countries to increase defence budgets in real terms and also it asks them with providing substantial support including personnel for eu military missions. Nevertheless, it falls short of full European Defence union that Commission President Jean Claude Juncker envisaged in the state of the Union Address this year. Estonias defence minister, juri luik, said even with pesco in force, collective defence will always remain in nato. Despite traditional british scepticism about further integration, Boris Johnson has welcomed the move and said the uk was supportive and would be like a flying buttress to support the cathedral. Well, to discuss this here in the studio, we have the new ukip leader, henry bolton, and in cambridge, the labour mep, alex mayer. Alex mayer, if i could start with you first. Labour governments, as well as conservative governments, have always been iffy about europe getting its act together on defence and basically we have been accused of blocking it. Is labour now actually in favour of closer eu defence co operation . Yes, we are. And i think that whats happened over the last few months and years is that the whole geopolitical situation has changed. When i talk particularly to my Eastern European colleagues in the European Parliament, theyre particularly worried about russian aggression and want to make sure that European Defence is strengthened and i believe that working together will enable us to do that. And henry bolton, thats surely a good thing, if the eu begins to look after itself, rather than always having to rely on others, above all the americans . Theres two aspects to that. Maybe i can start by saying that although we didnt sign up to pesco on monday, its quite clear that we are already in principle going to be participating in other areas of this, such as the European Defence fund and various other mechanisms that govern procurement and so on. And those in turn are all going to be governed by brussels based political and regulatory Decision Making that we wont be fully participating in post brexit. So we will be subordinating elements of our military, industrial and scientific and research, as well as our military, to eu policy. But given the threat we now know we seem to be facing from russia, you think of crimea, you think of the ukraine, surely it makes sense for the eu to start putting more oomph behind its military capability . Well, co operation and eu Member States co operating and ensuring that their command and control can Work Together so they are compatible with each other, yes. But centralised political direction, policy and regulatory frameworks, it is not the way to go. Nato is the alliance that has kept the peace up until now, militarily. Butjens stoltenberg is entirely 0k with this development. Well, im not, and ukip is not. We see a whole range of areas in which it implies deeper political integration with the European Union and compromise of our own autonomous and sovereignty. But ill come back to that, autonomous and sovereign military capabilities and our ability to deploy them unilaterally. The problem here is that nato has managed to survive and work effectively as a military deterrent for decades without that regulatory framework. 0k, alex mayer, let me just ask you this. Isnt the real danger of this is a paper tiger, at the end of the day, theres a lot of talk about europe getting its military act together, but basically, its a sort of bureaucratic getting your act together rather than real tanks on the ground . I mean, ijust think this has been blown out of all proportion. This is a ukip storm in a tea cup. It is good news if European Countries want to co operate with each other on defence. No one is forcing anybody to be a part of it. As we heard in the introduction to this report, britain is not a part of it, malta is not a part of it. You can choose whether you want to. So what is wrong with European Countries choosing to Work Together on defence . Just as we choose to Work Together in the un or in nato. And as you rightly said, the secretary general of nato has welcomed this move. We dont want to do anything to duplicate nato, but European Countries choosing to Work Together, i think, is a good thing and will help strengthen our defence. And where is your leader on this, Jeremy Corbyn, because he traditionally is very iffy about nato and military alliances . But hes very much in favour of making sure that people collaborate with each other and making sure we have Successful Missions to try and keep a more peaceful and stable world. Yes. I mean, donald trump has always argued that europe cannot keep relying on the americans. So surely this is just a natural Political Development that at the end of the day, europe is going to have to turn its attention to defence. His concern is the amount that people are spending on defence. And the problem with the whole pesco concept is that Member States will not, certainly not to any great extent, we cannot expect them to increase their. Thats part of the deal, isnt it, they have to increase it in real terms . But part of the deal is for nato is 2 and they dont maintain that. Theyre not going to increase their National Capabilities to support pesco. What they will do is they will say, hang on a minute, we can pool assets and thereby save costs. This is one of the things driving it. Now what concerns me is at the moment Member States, who are also members of nato, pledge assets, military assets and capabilities, to nato. Now, theyre going to be pledging those same assets to the European Union. You cant do both. 0k. Let me bring our guests in. Toby, how do you read this . Is this a serious move by europe to get its act together on defence . 0r actuallyjust talk . Well, it seems like part of the Ground Clearance they need to do in order to create an eu wide army. And is this a good thing . Well, interestingly, it was one of things which those of us on the leave side flagged up as a risk if we remained in the eu and that was always dismissed by remainers as being in the same category of fake news, as saying turkey might imminentlyjoin the eu. Why is it a problem if nato is ok with it . The difference is if we remain in the eu and an eu army does eventually get created, its not clear that we would have a choice if our troops were called up to fight in an eu war. Whereas in nato, we do at least have a right to veto. Every nato country has to unanimously endorse a military action before it commits its troop. And, rachel, is this move by europe actually maybe one of the consequences of brexit . Because obviously we are with france, the big player in European Defence. Now we are out. Is that perhaps whats driven the europeans to think, crikey, we better get our act together . I think so, yes, exactly, britains been a sort of a block on further integration. If it believes then the rest of the eu is going to more and more gather together and i dont see we can complain about that. I think if we choose to leave, thats their right to do so. Brexit has actually led to this . Brexit has taken away an obstacle to achieving it but thats exactly the point. Jean Claude Junckers point that this is about a full European Union military union, thats what he wants and thats what the direction of travel is, thats absolutely where were going. Let me just ask alex mayer there. Is that where you would like europe to go . I dont think that theres any. I dont think theres likely to be a european army. I dont think thats the end goal and i dont think anyones ever going to be forced into it. This is a union of countries of europe who want to get together and share ideas and resources on dedependence. Thats whats happening. No one is being forced into it, no troops are going to be called up from Different Countries without their say so. This is just people collaborating together to try to get the best from the resources that they have. Henry bolton, entirely voluntary arrangement which people can take or leave . Well, thats what nato is and this is not. This will be regulated as was made clear in the government paper issued in september that this will be regulated by the European Union. And we wont be part of that. Now, to borisjohnsons bit about flying buttress, to an extent i would agree with that analogy, but a buttress is outside the building, supporting it from the outside. If we are able to maintain our own full spectrum military capabilities, we will always want to co operate and support our friends and allies abroad, including eu Member States. We just do not believe, and ukip certainly doesnt believe, that we need to be subordinate to eu Decision Making either within the commission or politically in order to do that. We are far, far better able to do that if we are outside the building but supporting it. 0k, people, thanks very much. Henry bolton, alex mayer, thanks very much for your time. Now, could we soon see the eu impose sanctions on one of its own Member States . Well, meps voted this week to start official proceedings against poland over concerns that the nationalist government in warsaw is clamping down on the independence of thejudiciary. In a resolution adopted by a38 votes to 152, the European Parliament voted to launch the so called article 7 process which could lead to the suspension of polands Voting Rights in the council of the eu. In a debate in strasbourg, meps said the country had conducted serious violations of the rule of law. But the vote didnt go down very well with one polish mep. Why are you leaving . No, because i have to Say Something to you. I have to Say Something to you. Your attack to mr lewandowski, i find it outrageous. If there is one. Sensible, reasonable colleague of us, sometimes even a little bit boring, then it is mr lewandowski and to say that he lose his senses, i think its the polish government that has lost its senses and not mr lewandowski. Its interesting, isnt it, rachel . There is a sort of, it seems to me, tension between the old western European Countries and the new Eastern European countries. This kind of symbolises it, doesnt it . Exactly. But i do think its interesting that the eu has to uphold the rule of law, liberal democracy, that sense of. But sanctions is a big step. Its a big step and there is definitely and were going to see that in the brexit negotiations as well, the old eu, the new eu. But i think, ultimately, the eu does have to uphold those values which is what it stands for. Toby, the counter argument which the poles make is, look, we are a democratically elected government, what we choose to do in our country is none of your business, leave us alone. I think for someone on my side of the Brexit Debate who both believes in the rule of law, believes in universal human rights and so forth, but also believes in National Self determination, this is a really tricky one. But i think the eu would certainly have a lot more credibility as the upholders of the rule of law and universal human rights if they hadnt supported the Spanish Government in its absolutely brutal crackdown of the Independence Movement in catalonia. Is that, rachel, the sort of divide between east and west . I mean, is it possible that down the line we could see Eastern European countries maybe looking to britain and thinking, i think we want out of this club too . 0r becoming a bloc within a bloc, perhaps. I dont know, that is a possibility. Theres definitely a different culture, isnt there, that sort of Franco German access of closer integration, you know, the eu, the sort of faith, the true faith, definitely driven from that side of the bloc . And you could easily see a sort of a different culture of a bloc within a bloc developing, i think. Because one of the interesting things, toby, it always seems to me is much of this sort of argument around brexit is that were going to have to teach the brits a lesson so no one else dares do it. And yet there hasnt really, so far, been any sign of anyone looking to do a sort of pexit or whatever. Well, i always thought there was a slight red herring on the part of the eu. I mean, i think one of the reasons im optimistic that the eu will eventually compromise and strike a deal and there will be movement in december is because if we are actually forced by the eu through their intransigence to crash out without a deal and end up trading with the rest of europe via wto rules and we make a success of that, then there might be a stampede for the exit. 0k. So earlier this week, the European Parliament called an urgent debate on the so called Paradise Papers, a leak of 13 million documents reportedly tying Major Companies and political figures to secretive overseas financial arrangements. Meps called for a step up in the fight against tax avoidance. Adam fleming has the details. Papers, papers everywhere. But the documents meps cared about this week were the ones that revealed how the rich pay less tax. The so called Paradise Papers. Translation when i consider that this cup of tea, when i bought it, i paid more tax than an International Sporting company pays on its entire turnover, then its really outrageous. Its notjust an individual case, from the queen, to facebook, to george soros, to uber, to shakira, to e bay, all of them are mentioned in the Paradise Papers. More than 60 billion euros a year are being lost to the eu. The leader of the centre left group called tax avoidance a cancer on the european economy. Translation states are imposing austerity whilst at the same time Multi Nationals are taking billions out of the economy and not paying tax. Thereby depriving people of this income and we have drawn attention to this repeatedly as socialists. The Paradise Papers originated here bermuda a british overseas territory, thrusting the uk into the spotlight. Another day, another leak of embarrassing documents about the role of the city of london as the Global Centre for tax avoidance. Successive british governments have postured about leading on transparency, but its easy to play the good guy when you have so many post colonial territories to do the dirty work at your bidding. Avoiding civilised rules on tax was always part of the brexit agenda but any attempt to turn britain into the bermuda of the north is likely to flounder since the eu will surely make cleaning up the overseas territories a condition for any future trade deal. But the rest of the eu got the blame too. Remember it was an eu directive in the 1980s that let Multi National Companies Pay tax in any European Headquarters country rather than where their revenues and profits were really made. Remember, tougher action has been taken against the luxleaks whistle blowers than against the accountants, Corporate Executives or politicians involved. Remember that the commissions own president , mrjuncker, was Prime Minister of luxembourg when his country was conniving with big accountancy firms to erode the tax bases of larger eu economies. Jean Claude Juncker and his commissioners decamped to strasbourg as usual and had their weekly meeting in this very room and they say theyre gripping this issue. For example, they want every company to publish every activity it does in every country so they can be taxed properly and they want to publish a black list of global tax havens at the start of next month. But some meps say the hold up comes from the Member States. Which countries are blocking it . Oh, so many. I mean, of course you have the inner european tax paradises, like ireland, malta, cypress, but then surprisingly you have a number of big countries, and i forgot to mention the United Kingdom and all these crown dependencies. But then you have big countries like germany. Wolfgang schauble, when he was finance minister, not so long ago, was the key opponent to country by country reporting by Multi Nationals, because he wants to preserve the reputation of the big german Multi Nationals. So, you know, theres no holy finance ministers there. And this week, the parliament, council and commission failed to agree a new law on money laundering, after eight attempts. Looks like the murky world of tax avoidance will stay murky for a while. I have to say, i have a slight sense of deja vu in that im sure David Cameron was, you know, going to crackdown on tax avoidance, he had summits here, and task forces there. I mean, without being unduly cynical, do you think anything is actually going to change any time soon . Well, the eu should be the vehicle for dealing with this. This is something that has to be dealt with internationally. 0ne country on its own is never going to be able to sort out a global tax problem. But itjust seems to be caught up in the weeds yet again of, you know, individual self interest. I suppose politically, though, its like manna from heaven forJeremy Corbyn, though, isnt it . Of course, yeah. This plays to his narrative about the rich are doing terribly well, itsjust us poor people on austerity. And the conservatives should do something on the crown dependencies, they could do more on publication of transparency and that sort of thing. And it will be a brilliant way of demonstrating theyre not the party of the rich. Toby, is it possible. I think we heard it mentioned in the film there, that as part of the brexit negotiations, the eu might say, you know what, uk, crown dependencies, you got to get a grip of them . Well, they might but its going to be easier for them to make that case if theyre a bit more flexible about making a trade deal with us because in the absence of a trade deal, were going to have take advantage of whatever we can. I think meps would have more credibility on this issue. They we rent subject to a particularly low tax rate, lower than any of the Member States tax rates themselves. I mean, they get away with paying very little tax. Being an mep is actually a form of tax avoidance and i would say in response to the Jeremy Corbyn stuff around the Paradise Papers, lets not forget that the top 1 of earners are paying 27 of the total income tax take, higher than its ever been before and certainly higher than under any labour government. 0k. Well have to leave it there, folks. Toby young and Rachel Sylvester, thank you very much for bearing with us. Well, thats all for now. Thanks to all my guests and goodbye. Change afoot this evening and overnight. A fine enter the day for many and an early frost in eastern areas. As the night goes on, increasing cloud, outbreaks of rain to Northern Ireland, scotland, northern england. Snow in scotland. Further south, drier, still outbreaks of rain, much milder night than the one just gone. A fair bit of rain tomorrow morning for Northern Ireland and scotland especially. Snow above 400 metres. The rain will take its time to clear from eastern england. Behind it, some drier and potentially brighter weather trying to get through. Much milder across england and wales. Still quite cold. And in Northern Ireland. Another frontal system waiting in the wings on tuesday. Sets up the pattern for the week. There will be more cloud, strengthening breeze, outbreaks of rain. The heaviest across scotland, Northern Ireland and northern england. Good afternoon. Welcome to special coverage of the crisis in zimbabwe. I am alive in the capital, harare with breaking news. The leadership of zanu pf, the ruling party, have dismissed Robert Mugabe as their leader after 37 yea rs. Mugabe as their leader after 37 years. An extraordinary development, an extraordinary humiliation for him to effectively be sacked as the leader of the party, and his wife, grace mugabe, also dismissed from her position within zanu pf as the leader of the womens league, sacked because the party accused