Im stephen sackur. Far from settling anything, the catalan Regional Governments recent declaration of independence has deepened the uncertainty and confusion in catalonia. Madrid has placed the region under direct rule. The leaders of the ousted administration in barcelona face charges and trial. New elections are to be held in december. My guest is alfred bosch, a senior figure in the Republican Left Party which was part of the independence coalition. Have the secessionists scored a massive own goal . Alfred bosch, welcome to hardtalk. Hello. How are you . Well, i am very well, i am wondering how you are feeling. Would you agree that things have not exactly gone to plan since that unilateral declaration of Catalan Independence just a few days ago . Well, the declaration happened, so up to there, plans worked. What we are trying to do now is something which deserves some respect, which is trying to cope with the wave of oppression that the Spanish Government is deploying in catalonia against us, among other people. Well, respect, obviously, has to be earned. And im just wondering whether the people of catalonia respect leaders of their Regional Government who dont appear to have had any coherent strategy for the day after the big declaration. I think everybody here in catalonia understands, and im sure the world will understand, once its explained, that we needed to have part of the government in catalonia not abandoning their own people, and part of the government in brussels to initiate this international strategy, and to tell the whole world that we are alive, that we proclaim the republic, and we want freedom, we want to pursue it through democratic means and there is a huge wave of oppression falling on top of us. Otherwise, people will be saying why arent you addressing the international audience, why are you staying at home . We spoke and we did the right thing, i think. I must say, you are putting a very positive spin on things and we will get to accusations of oppression from madrid in a moment. Just to stick with what the catalan leadership has been up to of late, this is what you said on monday the 30th of october, just a couple of days ago, you said that Carles Puigdemont, who, of course, is the leader, was the leader, of the catalan Regional Government, would not abandon this duties. You said that he has been chosen to lead this country and that is what he is going to do. Its his duty. He will not abandon his duty. Well, as you were saying that, we now know he was racing in a car to marseille, getting on a flight, going to brussels and is now, in effect, is living in exile. Well, of course, he is still fulfilling his duties and his obligations because, i am sure you can realise that mr puigdemont would like to be right now with his family, his beloved wife, his two children, girls of eight and 10, and he would like to hug them very hard, that is where he wants to be. But he is fulfilling his obligations because he is in brussels explaining to the world what is going on in catalonia, what are the hopes of us and what we demand from the Spanish Government. He has to be there, its the place where he has to be. Be honest, mr bosch, when you said that, you didnt know that he was fleeing to brussels. I mean, lets face it, your own leader of your own Republican Left Party, he made a very different choice. Hes decided to stay and face up to his obligations in barcelona. Of course. But this was a collective decision. We decided that the president of catalonia is the best International Icon we have, so we will not surrender it. Like, did the dalai lama, surrender internationally . He didnt. We have to stick by him. He needs to be in the capital of europe for the time being. That might change. We need the second leader. Sorry to interrupt, but lets go through this bit by bit. I am serious, no, please. Isnt it true he has gone to brussels and nobody of any significance in the institutions or leadership of member states, they dont want to talk to him, they wont touch him with a barge pole i think, first thing, its not something to be laughed at. Our people were actually butchered by the police for voting. Elderly ladies, grandmothers, grandfathers, they were beaten up, whole families were beaten up for voting, just for going to the voting stations and protecting the ballot boxes. Now, thats something that deserves attention from europe, from everybody in the world. And what Carles Puigdemont, the catalan president , is doing right now, is pursuing that international agenda. That does not mean we will have instant success, because european leaders see whats happening in catalonia as a threat. We think they are wrong. They should see it as an opportunity, because europe was founded on democracy, and in the aftermath of a second world war, it was the ballot box, and not the bullet, which prevailed. And thats how we think things should prevail in europe. Whats what we are doing who could be against. I mean, could claude monet be against the people who defended the ballot box with their bodies . Is that not an example for europe . I promise you that well come back to the European Response on what the catalans and your Regional Government have done in a momentjust as well come back to your allegations madrid. But i want to stick to what the decisions have been since the unilateral declaration of independence from your own side, from the leadership of the secessionist parties. Lets face it, i mean, right now, it is clear that there is deep confusion inside the various parties that make up the yes to independence coalition, would you at least accept that . Well, what kind of confusion . Could you, uh, expand on that . Because im not confused. Indeed, i can. For example, i have heard different messages from different politicians about whether your boss in the Republican Left Party and mr puigdemont, and others, would, and indeed, should go to madrid to face the charges and the trial that is now demanded of them by the authorities in spain. What do you say to that . Well, its very clear, and i have stated very clearly. The Vice President of the Catalan Government, legitimate government, that was chosen in the polls, in voting sessions. It was chosen by the votes, so it is legitimate. He will go to court to face the charges, charges against sedition, for example, rebellion, ancient offences like that which dont really stand properly in the modern world, the western world of europe, right now. Will Carles Puigdemont. Will Carles Puigdemont be one of those individuals charged who agrees to go to madrid . I talk of confusion, for example, and mixed messages about whether he is prepared to go. Lets not get overexcited about this. We can deal with this with a very calm attitude. Mr puigdemont, like i said at the beginning, we took a decision which was actually taken collectively, and we decided that he was too valuable to go and hand him over to the madrid authorities. Now, the rest will go there, and most of the councillors and the Vice President will be in madrid to face whatever charges they encounter in court. Carles puigdemont has to be preserved as an International Icon for the time being. That is our decision, and we will stick to it. And the Vice President said that yesterday. We are quite firm in that. By your own account, then, he will be essentially absconding from justice. The others are prepared to go and face justice. Puigdemont is not. Lets look at this another way. Would use call itjustice, would you call it fair, to accuse people of sedition and rebellion, people who have organised a vote on october ist, a vote which was actually defended by the people physically with their bodies. Now, if defending freedom is an offence in 21st century europe, we are in a really bad situation, i must say. Still, they are brave people, they will face whatever charges they have, because they dont want to let the people down. Heres another. I used that word confusion and you questioned me about it. Heres another area in which i see confusion. Are you in the Republican Left Party and in the party of Carles Puigdemont as well prepared to fight the elections in december 31st and put up as candidates all of those people who were in the last parliament . In other words, are you now able to accept that de facto madrid rule is the order of the day and that you will play by the rules of madrid Going Forward . Answer to the first question, yes. Answer to the second question, no. But the two are interlinked, because if you are prepared to fight that election, you are doing it on madrids terms. Your parliament, the one you say is legitimate, has been dissolved. The order of the election is coming from madrid. You are recognising direct rule by taking their request to fight the election. Well, thats the madrid line, thats the argument of the Spanish Government. Im sure the bbc, which takes a neutral stance on this, and professionals like you, will actually like to hear our opinion on that. We dont see it as interlinked. In fact, we see that madrid and mr rajoy specifically had to call the election not out of strength, but out of weakness because he didnt want to do it. He announced there would be no elections in six months, maybe one year, then he does it in the legal minimum, a month and a half. Someone forced him, convinced him, to call those elections. It was a concession. That is a sign of weakness. He is Strong Enough to call it, obviously, but he is not Strong Enough to delay them. Because his intention, and he said it quite clearly, it was a statement by mr rajoy on television. He said i would deploy article 155, putting direct rule on catalonia, putting the Catalan Police under the orders of the ministry of the interior in madrid. His inability to do that is what led to the election. In a way, we are entering the madrid line, thats the madrid line. It is interesting, theres talk of where the weakness and the strength lies. I mean, again, looking at the facts, as i try to do, you and others in the Independence Movement said that there would be mass civil disobedience if madrid imposed direct rule under article 155 of the constitution. Look at what has happened in the last couple of days. There has not been mass civil disobedience. Public sector workers, from the teachers to the firefighters to the police, they have worked as normal. Senior Police Officers dismissed from posts advised Junior Officers to continue in their posts. People in barcelona and other towns and cities look pretty normal. In fact, the biggest rally we have seen since this crisis reached the point of udi was actually a pro union rally where up to a Million People went onto the streets expressing support for the continued union of catalonia inside spain yeah. But there were some scenes of violence in the aftermath of all those demonstrations by pro fascist groups, we can also say that. With all respect, alfred bosch, where was the mass civil disobediences that you predicted . The issue, and mr puigdemont also referred to that in his press conference in brussels, the issue is whether we would like to see violence, whether we would like to see bloodshed, because the threat is there. We saw what the madrid government, the Spanish Government, what they were capable of doing, sending police against ordinary unarmed defenceless civilians, and we saw that on october the ist, and you broadcast that all over the world. So we know what they are capable of doing. There were very serious threats on catalan society, and catalan politicians, like Carles Puigdemont, received those threats, and they have decided to demobilise people. That would have led to a massive confrontation. Does anyone want that . No. We are a peaceful and civilised people. We will carry on but we will do it in a civic and very peaceful manner like we have always done. So thats why we are standing for these elections. We want to turn them into a plebiscite. We have that opportunity. Lets turn it around and try to win these elections because pro Independence Movements have won every election in the last years. So, lets do it again. The question is what will mr rajoy do . That is a very interesting point and an interesting challenge to rajoy did youve just made. Youve clearly expressed your confidence that the Pro Independence parties will emerge victorious on december 21. But let me flip it around to you. The indication of what youre saying is a recognition that if you do not win a clear majority that is the Pro Independence parties do not emerge victorious on december 21 then effectively your declaration of independence is null and void and yourdream of independence is shattered. Would you accept that . Well, i would accept that we have to pursue our goals through democracy and through the vote, and through free, peaceful methods. Weve been doing that for seven years, at least, actively. We have won popular consultations. We have won an official binding referendum. We have won all the elections in that period. No, no, no. I have to i have to stop you there. An official, binding referendum is not its not strictly true, what you said. It wasnt an official, binding referendum. The Constitutional Court dismissed it, the Spanish Government doesnt recognise it, neither does any other member state of the European Union. You and your parties regard it as binding, but that was obviously not persuasive to those authorities that matter. No, no. Sorry. Sorry, but i must argue on that. That that youre obviously following the line of the Spanish Government. No, no, im not following anybodys lines, im looking at the facts, mr bosch. The catalan referendum was approved in parliament, and it was enacted by law, and it was binding because the law said it was biting. And the spanish Constitutional Court decreed that that particular law and the calling of that referendum by the catalonian Regional Government and parliament was not constitutional. I might grant something if you only if you only argue according to spanish law, obviously, we should concede that. If you argue with fundamental rights and democratic rights, obviously people have the right to vote. They had it in scotland. They had it in quebec. They have had it all over the world. With the agreement with the agreement of the National Sovereign governments relevant to those particular cases you never had the agreement of madrid, and that is the point. But if you dont mind, lets address whether, right now, you truly believe you have a majority of catalans on your side for the consistent push toward full, practical independence. Let me quote you words of a highly respected figure in catalonia, that is the mayor of barcelona who, of course, you know very well ada colau. I do. She says this what i see, she says, is a headlong dash at kamikaze pace which has been consummated with this declaration of independence in the name of catalonia, but doesnt have the support of a majority of catalan people. Well, uh, i belong to a different party, so please, um, understand that i might think differently. And i think differently because they think she enters a contradiction, ada colau, the mayor of barcelona. I am in the opposition, too, by the way. No, and i appreciate that, but she is the mayor. And right now, many catalans, given that mr puigdemont is stuck in brussels, they regard ada colau as perhaps the most impressive, important, respected voice in catalonia today. Well, she might be a respected figure. I respect her, as well. But that does not mean we agree with her. But in actualfact, she went to vote. Why did she vote in the referendum, and, uh, if she had to say all this . Why did she think it was a kamikaze race, and then voted for this, a referendum on independence . That introduces a certain paradox, dont you think . Maybe it is because she is a practical person and she is looking at reality. And very briefly, because we dont have much time, you referred earlier to what you believed was the mistaken response the European Union. I would put it to you that if you listen to the words, for example, European Council head donald tusk, who said spain is our only interlocutor. Emmanuel macron in paris, who says rajoy has my full support. Or indeed the german government, which says the sovereignty and integrity of spain are and will remain inviolable. If you listen to the tone and the words, you understand the ambition of catalonia to be an independent state within the European Union does not have a chance of success. Well, look, lithuania, declared its independence and got its first recognition from iceland almost one year after that. So these things are slow. You have the parliaments of slovenia, lithuania, estonia, finland, argentina, who are going to debate on catalonian independence. I see youre youre kind of over anxious to get International Recognition for the catalan republic. We have patience. We will work on that. Mr puigdemont is in brussels. Im sure hes working on that. So dont worry about this. I promise i wont worry. But i am talking about practical reality is opposed to fantasy. In terms of this udi, declaration of independence. I am sorry, sir, that is an interpretation. Lets get to real practicality. If you believe you live in an independent nationstate, explain to me how you do not control your borders, in terms of the most basic infrastructure, from airports to railroads to telephone systems you are entirely dependent on madrid. And, frankly, even forfinance, you are entirely dependent on madrid. So i come back to the point is your talk of an independent catalonia, right now, fantasy or reality . There was a declaration of independence. Thats a reality. It was voted by the people, and then it was ratified by the catalan parliament. There is a wave of repression against that. Because the people voted and because the politicians and the leaders of catalonia organised that vote. Now that is real. Thats real. Its also real that catalonia is not an independent nation, right now, to all regards and purposes. But it its also true that always in history when there has been opposition from the metropolis, that has taken some time. And that happened with american independence, it happened with the independence of lithuania, of slovenia, of any country which has had opposition by the metropolis. Ourfinalthought, now, mr bosch, because were almost out of time. But over a thousand businesses have moved their administrative headquarters out of catalonia because theyre fearful for the future. All of the economic analysts i have looked at suggest that there is no practical way that catalonia can be an economically successful independent nationstate. Are you irresponsibly playing with the future of the catalan people . No. There uh, why dont you go talk to amazon . Theyjust established their main distribution point in barcelona, catalonia. Why do you talk for the people who are trying to open up hotels . Why do you talk to all of the visitors we are having increasingly in our town . This is especially barcelona is a success city. And nothing of that is happening. There are political moves by companies who are being pressured by the Spanish Government to move out, and that is the way the Spanish Government tries to seduce the catalan people. If instead of accusing our leaders of sedition, which is a very Old Fashioned crime which they imposed, for instance, on mahatma gandhi, in 1922, almost 100 years ago if instead they tried to seduce the catalan people, probably the Spanish Government would be a better situation keep catalonia within the kingdom of spain, im sure. All right, alfred bosch, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Most welcome. Hello. It looks as though friday is going to start on a fairly cool note across the british isles, despite the fact that much of the breeze is coming in from the south and south west and there is a lot of cloud to be had. But my greatest concern about the first part of the day is just how dense and extensive the fog is going to be. Quite widely to be had there across the southern counties of england for the morning rush hour. Bbc local radio should keep you right up to date on the very latest developments. But the problem areas really lies from about the eastern side of devon through the west country, to central southern england, and on towards the south east. A little bit further north, more cloud here. Mayjust have enough about it for there to be the odd spot of rain. But generally speaking, north of that, to the north of england, northern ireland, and the greater part of central, southern and eastern scotland, a lot of dry weather around, a lot of cloud, as well, it has to be said, so a fairly dull start to the day. And then that little bit further north and west into scotland, a new set of weather fronts here, bringing renewed bouts of cloud, wind and rain into the far north west of scotland. Eventually it mayjust begin to flirt with the north west of northern ireland, too. Once that fog is gone, well, its a half decent day. There will be some sunshine around, fleetingly perhaps, holding the temperatures to around 10 15 degrees or so. We see Significant Developments in the weather as we get through friday night into the wee small hours of saturday, where the rain becomes really quite extensive across england and wales. The odd moderate burst in there. And the northern feature just drags the cloud and rain down towards the borders area, perhaps, and then tending the merge with that new area of rain across england and wales. The weekend will eventually turn colderfor all. And it will be a mixture of sunny spells and showers, especially so on sunday. Im delaying it as far as that for the greater part of england and wales, simply because, to the start of the weekend, youve got these weather fronts close by and that is notjust the odd passing shower, that is rain. Quite persistent rain. Totals getting up to around 25 30 millimetres perhaps. And dont hold me to that final clearance of the rain getting to the Eastern Shores at around about sort of mid afternoon. It could be a fraction earlier but it could also be a little bit later. Generally speaking, the further north and west you are, your day will be one of sunny spells and showers, especially so for scotland and northern ireland. And that is certainly going to be the case for all of us, as we get on into sunday, with a high on the day, a rather cool 11. Im Sharanjit Leyl in singapore. The headlines donald trump is coming to asia for a 5 country visit. His message . Time is running out for dealing with north korea. Protests as spain holds eight members in the Catalan Government injail on charges of rebellion and sedition. Im kasia madera in london. Also in the programme detainees who refuse to leave a detention on manus island say they have to dig for water after australia closes the centre. A new species of orangutan is found in indonesias remote sumatra jungles but they are already endgangered. Live from our studios in singapore and london, this is bbc world news