Seventy years ago, a leader called Mustafa Barzani made a declaration of kurdish independence it was ignored. Last month, his son won a referendum in iraq, intended to achieve it. Baghdad says it will impose its rule instead. If the kurds are to succeed, masrour, my guest today, grandson of one barzani, son of the other, and head of security and intelligence in Iraqi Kurdistan, will need all the guile hes acquired waging war on the group that calls itself islamic state. He thinks that has earned kurds the right to a state of their own. But with iraq, iran, turkey, much of the world against them, could this referendum end up delivering the kurds even less than the autonomy that they enjoy now . Masrour barzani, in erbil, in Iraqi Kurdistan, welcome to hardtalk, thank you for being with us today. Thank you for having me. The man driving the independent push is how you were described recently. How has this referendum made things better for the kurds . Well, as you know, we have been having problems with baghdad all along and we have tried every other means to make sure we resolve our problems peacefully but, unfortunately, the Iraqi Government did not address all these issues according to the constitution and they were not actually accepting us as equal partners, as a part of our deal to be part of iraq and, after trying all other avenues, we have no choice but really to resort to a referendum as a democratic process and as a peaceful means to express the desire of our people about the future relationship between kurdistan and baghdad. You already have a high degree of autonomy youve had that for the best part of 20 years now why have a referendum on independence at this stage . Actually, the desire for having independence for kurdistan dates back almost a century. Unfortunately, we have been treated unjustly all along and we do not think that autonomy by itself is enough to protect the rights of our people, as we have seen in the past, we have always been subject to threats, to atrocities, and attacks against our people, we have been subject to genocide, war, chemical bombardments, anfal operations, and we need to have some sort of international guarantee so that these atrocities in the past will not be repeated in the future. Youre obviously not accusing the current government. crosstalk . Im sorry to interrupt, i just want to be clear about this. You are obviously not accusing the current government of that, youre saying that what happened in the past could happen in the future . With the current government starting from 2003, after toppling the previous regime, we hoped that there would be a new era, that here would be real power sharing with this new government. We participated voluntarily to go into baghdad and to create a country, to call it a country for all of us. We ratified the constitution. We believed that this constitution would be fully implemented but as it is known to everybody, this constitution was not implemented fully but actually the governments of baghdad were very selective in implementing articles that served their purpose, and whatever that was part of the package to satisfy the kurdish side actually were ignored. So we tried very hard to make sure that we solve all problems peacefully but it did not happen so, yes, the regime has changed but, unfortunately, we have seen that the mentality of ruling in baghdad is moving away from democratic principles and from power sharing, and moving into more of a sectarian regime that is excluding, not only the kurds, but also the sunni and this is what concerns us. We are very worried about the future for our people, if we dont have some sort of international protection. Just before the result was declared, of your referendum, last month, haider al abadi, the iraqi prime minister, addressed the parliament and declared, we will impose iraqs rule in all districts of the region, with the force of the constitution. He has right on his side, doesnt he . That constitution, that you referred to, that you signed up to, does not allow for you to unilaterally hold referendums declaring your independence and, in a sense, havent you emboldened iraq to take back from you some of the things you have enjoyed in recent years. You have challenged iraq. Yourfather, the president , says, from world war one until now, we are not a part of iraq, so you clearly do not care about the rest of the country. You cannot really expect any other reaction, can you . We ratified the constitution, the whole constitution, and notjust some articles that baghdad chooses to use that serves their purpose. Actually, if you look at he constitution, one of the reasons why we called for the referendum is the violation of the constitution, actually the violation of 55 articles of the constitution which has given us 55 reasons why we should actually conduct this referendum. Isnt this problem, though, that you have notjust irritated, annoyed, frustrated baghdad whatever you think of that, perhaps doesnt bother you but you have also achieved something quite remarkable youve managed to unite your neighbours countries like syria, turkey, and iran against you. Youve managed to create an alliance that many would have thought impossible, by throwing this uncertainty into the equation, into one of the most unsettled regions on the planet. Well, exactly. So you see in which environment we live and how much we are threatened by the decisions of these neighbouring countries. crosstalk . Let me start by saying, if you just give me a second, let me explain this. We have conducted referendum in Iraqi Kurdistan and this is one of the most democratic, peaceful means of expressing our desire. Let me tell you, we are living in the 21st century, and it is absurd that we are still struggling or we are challenged for freedom of expression. What have we done is basically to tell baghdad what exactly our people want. It has always been baghdad pushing us to the referendum, by telling us that we do not represent the entire kurdish population, or that the kurdish parties are divided, and this, in fact, is giving a legitimate mandate to negotiate with baghdad. We have not declared independence right after the referendum, we havejust expressed our desire. Forgive me for interrupting you, i think its important. crosstalk . Let me be clear about this because a lot of people listening wont know what the question was. It says, do you want the kurdistan region and the kurdistani areas outside the Regions Administration to become an independent state . There is nothing about seeking a mandate to negotiate with baghdad theres just a yes or no. People voted in significant numbers yes that is a direct challenge to the future of iraq as a country and, furthermore, by your use of language, talking about the areas outside the Regions Administration, it is not surprising, is it, that in tehran and in ankara they are worried that the implication is you want their kurds too. First of all, this is an iraqi issues and i do not think that the iraqi neighbours should intervene and, in fact, the International Community should not allow the intervention of the neighbouring countries in internal affairs of a country. The other point that you mentioned, yes, people have voted for independence and this is a right enshrined in the un charter so there is nothing wrong about people calling for the way that they want to live in their own country. The referendum obviously was voted by almost 93 of the Kurdish People, overwhelmingly voting for independence, but the point is that we have not declared independence and we have said it before the referendum and after the referendum, we want to have a legitimate mandate to speak with baghdad and sort out our problems peacefully. In terms of the territories youre talking about, that are currently outside the Kurdistan Regional government, these areas, lets not forget, are the ones that have been systematically used by the previous iraqi regime, where the kurds have been deported from and those areas have been replaced by others so reclaiming those areas is. Actually goes back to the rise of isis. It was isis that threaten kurdistan, and it was isis that occupied parts of iraqi land, and it was the failure of the Iraqi Government to protect the people in those regions which has forced peshmerga to go and protect those areas otherwise they would have fallen into the hands of isis. And now, everybody who has struggled to liberate it from isis as they are liberating other parts from isis. Going back to those areas, doesnt mean. Our referendum does not. It really has not said it will decide on the fate of those regions and it is not going to define the boundaries between kurdistan and iraq we have left that to negotiate with baghdad, according to the Previous Article 14001 of the constitution. Let me. Which the Iraqi Government did not implement. Let me put to you what some of those neighbours are saying. President erdogan, speaking on the 30th of september, after the referendum, said the call for independence would leave only a bleeding wound, and he went further, he said, who are they going to sell their oil to . Because of course you have been selling o lot of it to turkey over the years. Turkey has been quite a good friend of Iraqi Kurdistan. If we close their valve their income is gone too. We may arrive one night, suddenly, he was quoted in a News Conference as saying, and since turkey controls an important supply of, what, 18 or i9 of your revenue, the oil supplies, and that goes through a line thats under turkish control, in the mediterranean, they do that and you are in real trouble, arent you . Well, i do not know what has changed. Since 1991, kurdistan has been a de facto independent state, except after the constitution was ratified in 2003 in 2005, excuse me where theres some exclusive given to the government, the Iraqi Government has used all those exclusive rights against kurdistan. Ok, but im talking about turkey now. crosstalk . Exactly, yes. We were surprised and do not understand why so much overreaction by turkey and other neighbours. In fact, even by the Iraqi Government. We have not conducted the referendum to complicate issues. In fact, we believe the referendum is one of the only remaining solutions to solve our problems with baghdad properly and address all these problems that are actually very real. We cannot be delusional thinking there are no problems and everything is fine. 0bviously, what has pushed us to the referendum is because there are certain problems that we have with the country. We have no intention of animosity with turkey, nor with iran, nor with iraq, and we are very surprised by the disproportionate measures that they have taken against our people. You have thrown the diplomatic equivalent of a handgrenade into one of the most sensitive regions on the planet. Can you really be surprised that this is the consequence . Are you really naive enough to believe that a referendum declaring the desire for independence of the Kurdish People in Iraqi Kurdistan would not send shockwaves across those borders . Actually, we are surprised that they do not respect the will of 3 million people, expressing their free will of how they want to live in this country. But we have never said that we going to enforce our will on any government or any country and, in fact, we have left the doors open to negotiate and reach a peaceful solution. If others are closing the doors and are not willing to talk to us peacefully and to reach any solution, then i think they should be the ones to be blamed for whatever the consequences they are responsible for. You have talked passionately already in this interview about the commitment and the sacrifice of the peshmerga, the kurdish fighters, who have been such a key part in the fight against the group that calls itself islamic state. How do you think the fight in iraq against that organisation is going . Peshmerga have been in the forefront of defeating isis, defeating the myth of isis. While the rest of the world was actually praising peshmerga it was once again the iraqi governmen that objected to providing the heavy equipment to the peshmerga to win this war against isis much quicker, and it was at a time where we needed financial support, when we were fighting a common enemy, that the iraqis cut the budget of kurdistan, while we were also hosting 1. 8 million idps and refugees from other parts of iraq and in syria, that were in kurdistan. We were hoping the International Community and especially iraq would come to our support. Now the peshmerga were praised all those times, but now that they are talking about how freely and democratically they want to shape their future relationship with baghdad, we are once again coming under attack, while the International Community is very absent and very silent and, in fact, their silence has emboldened both baghdad and encouraged the neighbouring countries to take harsh measures against our people. Not entirely silent, are they . This was rex tillerson, who said after the referendum the fight against isis is not over, and extremist groups are seeking to exploit instability and discord. We urge our iraqi opponents to remain focused on defeating is, before they start thinking about things like Holding Referendums about whether the east remains part of iraq. You are right. Thats in the sense that some of them opposed even the referendum, which is a very democratic process. In another way, they were supporting indirectly a sectarian government, against the democratic process. Now, in terms of fighting isis, we have always said we are committed to fighting isis. We believe we are an active member of the coalition against terrorism, against isis, and we will continue to do so. So couldnt the referendum have waited until that process was complete . Absolutely not. Well, the referendum has nothing to do with our commitment to fight isis. In fact, when we fought isis, our relationship with baghdad was not the force behind driving us to fight and defeat isis. It was our determination, it was the result of our people, that fought isis. So, even at this moment, we are ready to fight terrorism as long as it takes, and we dont think that political relations between erbil and baghdad will have any negative effect on the war. And we have made that very clear to the coalition forces, we have made that clear to baghdad, and in fact we have shown a readiness to work with the Iraqi Security forces to fight against isis. After the referendum, the operation happened, and we saw that there was no negative effects of the referendum on that operation. What have you said to the americans . Because they seem very displeased by the decision to hold this referendum. Mr rex tillerson, the secretary of state in Donald Trumps administration, says the vote and the results lack legitimacy, and the us will continue to support a united, federal, democratic and prosperous iraq. In other words, not an independent Iraqi Kurdistan. Well, we are very disappointed in that statement, as well, because this is the expression of the will and the desire of a nation, of how they want to live. We dont think that it is right to impose any sort of mechanism or systems against people that in fact have not been even respected. We had a constitution, we wanted to be a part of this government, we wanted to be a part of this country. But unfortunately this government, and the government before that, i mean, theyve moved away from implementing the constitution, and respecting the commitment. Ok, i think you have made that point several times. I only interrupt because im conscious of time, and i want to cover some more ground. I just want to be clear about this. Were you expecting a different response from washington . You must have given warning that you were planning to do this. You have very good links, not least because of intelligence, with for example the cia. You have very good links with the administration. Were you saying to them, look, it is going to be fine . Were they saying to you, dont do this . Were they apparently relaxed about you having this referendum, or at least, did you think they were . We expected that at least they should support peaceful talks between us and baghdad, before and after the referendum. It was the Iraqi Government, the iraqi prime minister, before the referendum, who said that they are not to accept a referendum, now or in the future. That left us no choice but actually to resort back to the will of our people, to see what exactly they want. So we are also. Yes, we are disappointed in the position the International Community and also the United States has taken, opposing the referendum. What we did not expect is opposing the referendum. Now, even if they did not want to support the referendum, they could have stayed neutral, or at least encouraged baghdad and erbil to sit around the table and to sort out their problems peacefully. This hasnt happened, and in fact, this opposition has emboldened baghdad to take such measures, and in fact even to reach out to their neighbouring countries, to put a blockade on kurdistan, and to collectively punish the people of kurdistan. Let me put you what Michael Rubin of the American Enterprise institute said at the beginning of the month. He said, with so many millions of dollars spent lobbying, how could they get so much wrong about american policy . You have been cheek to cheek for so long, they have been so supportive of you, you have been warm towards washington, you helped them over iraq, the fall of saddam hussein, you have helped them in the fight against islamic state. How could the communication have got so poor between you that you walk into what now looks like a trap, where your back is against the wall, where you have no Significant International support . Weve never said that the United States should choose between us or baghdad. We have said that they could keep baghdad, if they can, and also to have us as theirfriends. We still believe that we are very good friends of the United States. We are appreciative, and we are very grateful to have all the support that the United States has provided us, and by the same token, all the Coalition Members that have supported us in this fight against isis. So we dont believe that our referendum should be you know, should give any reason to the americans or to the rest of the International Community to take an opposition side against us. We still believe that they can play a more constructive role, in terms of supporting both baghdad and erbil, to engage in a constructive dialogue, rather than taking sides, and actually giving room for escalation, which unfortunately nobody is going to benefit from it. So, in terms of preventing war or destruction or instability, we believe that its time for the International Community, and before all of them the United States, to actively get engaged, and encourage both baghdad and erbil to talk, rather than escalating tension, as baghdad is actually doing right now. There was another vote scheduled, and that was supposed to happen in november. That is the president ial election. Your father, massoud ba rzani, of course, is president. He has been so since the summer of 2009. Is that election going to go ahead as scheduled, or has the controversy over the referendum forced that to be delayed . We are fully supportive of the elections to be held on time, yes. If your father has delivered the Kurds International isolation and conflict with baghdad, can he win . I dont think that it is a personal issue. I think our president has basically done what our people want him to. He left the choice to the people. So this is the choice of the Kurdish People, notjust a single person. And 93 of the Kurdish People voted on this referendum to say yes to the independence. So this has been, all along, the choice of people, and notjust the president. The problem is its what sort of independence they would get, isnt it . Is your region really capable of being a nation . Notjust because of those threats internationally to turn off the oil exports, so you cant raise the money you need. Not just for the fact that, what, a fifth of your population is dependent on the public payroll, so if baghdad stops sending the money up from the city up to you, you wont be able to pay those people. But also, to quote the economist last month, the local economy is a shambles, despite president barzanis appropriation of kirkuk. They receive half the pay of those in the rest of iraq. It is not much of a basis on which to form a nation, is it . Well, look, we are doomed to live in a neighbourhood where unfortunately we are landlocked. But that doesnt mean that our people cannot freely express how they want to live in the future. We dont believe that our referendum, or the results of the referendum, are to challenge the neighbouring countries, nor iraq. We have looked at this referendum as a solution. To reach a solution with baghdad, we believe that a peaceful relationship with baghdad and with the neighbouring countries is going to be in the best interests of the entire region. It is their lack of understanding of our intention, and our will, and not accepting us as equal partners in this part of the world, that has created this tension. It is not our fault. We are actually calling for a solution. We are actually calling for a peaceful settlement with baghdad. But baghdads refraining from talking with us, and resorting to legitimacy of the constitution, or the reason, the rationale, resorting to violence and threatening us, that they are going to take over kurdistan by the use of force, is a clear indication that they actually are not accepting us as equal partners, and they are not actually looking at the stability of this region. So, you know, once again, let me set the record straight. We have no intention of hostility, or complicating the already complicated and complex situation here in the middle east. We believe that, by understanding and accepting each other, and talking to each other, and reaching a solution that is desirable by all sides, is the only way forward, and this is what we intend to do. This is where we stand, as we speak. Masrour barzani, in erbil, Iraqi Kurdistan, thank you for talking to us on hardtalk. Well, thank you. Hi there. I will talk about the hurricane in a moment but first of all the weather here in the uk. This is the set up. A weather front moving in with some wet weather and tightly packed isobars, telling you it will be a windy day with gales around coasts and hills in the north and west. Temperatures starting the day into double figures everywhere. So it will be a mild start. But windy as well. This area of rain will be slow moving across scotland ireland. A damp start to the day across parts of Northern England, and the rainfall totals really mounting up across the high ground, the Cumbrian Fels in particular, could see 60 80 millimetres of rain before the weather system is through. Behind that across scotland and Northern Ireland, yes, some sunshine through the afternoon but to the south of the front things turn increasingly wet through the afternoon. In wales the winds pick up in england and they should blow some holes into the clouds and occasional sunny spells are possible but overall we are looking at a lot of cloud. Now, through friday evening and overnight the weather front stops moving southwards and returns back northwards. We will be left with further rain across Northern England and north wales for a time. Slightly fresher air for scotland and Northern Ireland but it is not exactly cold, is it . 16 degrees overnight taking us into saturday morning across parts of Northern England and wales as well. Here is the chart as we start the weekend. The weather front pushing its way northwards with the wind coming from a long way south, dredging up some very mild air. Where it is cloudy temperatures into the high teens. Where we see some sunshine this weekend we could see highs up to 23 degrees. Way, way warmer than it should be at this stage of october. Now here is the chart for saturday. Most starting on a cloudy note. Rain moving away from Northern England but turning damp for western scotland. Rain for a time in Northern Ireland. A lot of cloud, yes, but mild everywhere and where we see sunshine it will be pleasantly warm, the best across eastern england. Maybe the chance of a few breaks of cloud on sunday, and where we see those breaks, temperatures up to 23 degrees but cloudy and wet and cool in the north west of scotland. Now beyond that we have to look at this, hurricane 0phelia, which this weekend is going to pass pretty close to the eastern azores. From there is stops being a hurricane on sunday. The winds expand as it moves underneath a powerfuljet stream and this storm system works towards the british isles. It could go to the west of ireland. It could go across the uk. A lot of uncertainty about the track. It wont be a hurricane when it reaches our shores but it could bring some stormy, disruptive weather, so make sure you stay in touch with the Weather Forecast over the next few days. Thats your weather. Im rico hizon in singapore. This is newsday. The Headlines Police in the us and uk launch investigations into Sexual Assault claims against hollywood producer harvey weinstein. Oscar winner Emma Thompson adds to the allegations. This man is at the top of a very particular iceberg i dont think you can describe him as a sex addict, hes a predator. Hostages of the Afghan Taliban for five years Pakistani Forces rescue a north american couple and their three young children. Im ben bland in london. Also in the programme. The dark side of the philippines war on drugs thousands of suspects are killed by police some in rehab claim theyre victims of brutality