The hello welcome to the program. Im adrian. Instead of going to me 7 months of was more than 35000. 00 palestinians killed and widespread destruction of the densely populated guns a strip, the International Criminal courts to prosecute to says that is really Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu and defense minister your go on, that criminal responsibility for war crimes and crimes against humanity. The ground cited by a come out of hong include starvation of civilians has a method of wolf app, intentionally directing attacks against civilians and willful killing. Con is also applied for arrest warrants for 3, how much leaders for the october 7th attack on israel. So what does this mean for the demonstration on concept of how does legal pressure 1st and the genocide case of the Instructional Court of justice and now at the i c. C. Impact the realities on the ground. Well put that to i guess, to the moment, but 1st a report from oracle. Some should have president joe bidens sounding by is one us preston. Joe biden has told these rejected the decision by the prosecutor of the International Criminal court to seek arrest warrants against is fairly Prime MinisterBenjamin Netanyahu. And his defense, mister hugh of cologne, is the 1st time the r. C. C has sought. The rest of the top us ally r c. C prosecutor, cream con is also seeking the rest of 3. How mostly does for the october 7th, the tech already was very wide. There is no privilege between israel and im us its clear isnt was all do all can to ensure submitting protection b i. C, c prosecutor says, this evidence to show that nothing yahoo, im go on the criminal responsibility for crimes. And also in the past 7 months, the mazda attack on his wife killed about 1200 people on october 7th, and is to as well. And also since has more than 35. 00 pounds of palestinians, the crimes include starvation of civilians as a method of wolf, i wilfully causing great suffering. Serious injury to body or health or cruel treatment. Also killing or murder, unintentionally directing attacks against a civilian population. As well as crimes against humanity of extermination, and all matter. Persecution, the allegations of crimes of committing other in human acts. Nothing yahoo condemned what he called an outrageous position, accusing the i c. C of anti semitism, the prosecutors of surcharges against being as well as the defense minister. Im really an attempt to deny as well the basic right of self defense. And i assure you one thing this attempt will utterly fail. Come off is also rejected to prosecute his decision to seek arrest bortons against its leaders. Accusing putting con of 28 plate victims with the execution of the i. C. C decision has ended, some palestinians, and casa, the we condemned the decision. How much and gaza is a resistance, and the resistance will never give up. Its loud outlined is occupied. We cant just leave it like that as well on the us on north members of the i. C. C, which was formed in 2002. The palestine is a member and the code has the power to investigate what crime is committed on the touch feet of any of its members states. 3 while a panel of judges at the i c. C, we consider the prosecutors request with us walgreens as well spaces for the International Isolation as opposed to use its months long lenses bombardment of gaza essentially, ill just see the inside story. Thats bringing, i guess for todays discussion. Joining us here in the ha is diana book to a promise to the lawyer and legal analyst from london with joined by daniel levy, president of the Us Middle East project. So the full member of the official is really delegation is to peace talks with the palestinians of talbot and also from amsterdam. Were joined by kate, macintosh, executive director of the university of california, los angeles law schools Promise Institute for shoot and rights europe. She previously served at the International Criminal tribunal is for the former yugoslavia and rewind, welcome to you. Ok. Lets stop with you. Whats the significance of this move by the i see, see from your perspective, having worked on the instructional criminal tribunals for the, for the dyslexia and when the white, the cutting con, go public. But his intention to seek these arrest for and so not wait until late actually been issued. Well, i think i read 2 possible reasons for bobs one is that hes hoping to have an impact on whats happening on the ground. So hes released these arrest warrants, please be sure that that will impact the conduct suppose to disease or possibly the situation of the hostages. And the other is that hes hoping to have an impact on the impression of the integrity of his institution. I think its very important that he released these requests. I think its important for those of us that care about accountability and International Justice that we see that he was united to certain extent brave enough to take this step. Okay, is it a full conclusion to face arrest warrants will be issued. The most costs, the pre trial chambers. Im sure everyone knows by now. Well be looking to see whether the material thats being submitted with the application does establish reasonable grounds to believe that the clients have been committed. But its very unlikely that the prosecutor would have not submitted adequate support for his request. He knows that lies will be on him, and its a relatively low threshold. And that has to be met at this stage. You may even submit summaries of evidence. Essentially, the doctors wont just look at the elements of each crime alleged. Im see whether material has been submitted, which would, which would, if proved to pull each element. So its a relatively nice, i show them. I think we can see that its probably likely to be granted. Diana, as a palestinian lawyer, what strikes you about the way that these applications were made . I think that theres a lot of both sides of something that is happening here and while and definitely happy to see that is rarely meters are being held to account. I think that there is both a question on both sides of them where theyre doing both have mass and israel is a and to his release as well as the list of charges, particularly against i guess these realities there have been so many issues that have been omitted, for example, torture is not one of the issues that has listed against that in the hour and, and against kalonde. Even though weve seen that more than 27 palestinians have been killed in custody. And we have these videos as well as testimony of intuitive jewels who have been subjected to torture, as well as so whos who have done the torturing with all. So thats been an admitted, is that the issue of genocide as well . And so wow, this is definitely a good start and its fine its, its taken far too long to get to this point. I do think that he has engaged in a little bit of both sides of them and also the, the, the no mention of the occupation if i know there is definitely no context provided in this at all. So no mention of the occupation, no mention of anything thats happened before october of 2023. And as we know, this occupation is gone on for, for more than half a century. And the fact that theres simply hitting the start clock on october rather than the start clock, which is when, when palestine actually signed onto the i. C, c is very telling and so there is lacking context is lacking depth. But again, i think is very important because for all these years israel has been able to get away with literally murder and, and so the fact that were finally seeing that one of these International Institutions is beginning to hold. Thats now and go launch accountable is actually a good 1st start. I hope it continues beyond this, and i hope we see not just indictments but so much more than that. In order for this genocide to finally come to an end for the world to finally stop israels genocide. Tony olivia, what are your thoughts on this . Well, i think what weve seen thus far is possible. Real reluctance on the part of the i c. C. 2 way and as deanna said, that all the cases related to this space related to previous assaults on dogs that relate to, to israel site crimes of sacrament instead of a still pending. Im just fine. Thats huge reluctance. Here we all, with the court making the recommendation for these arrests once id probably, and i think we should acknowledge this, this could be a knock on effect from what weve already seen. A few International Court of justice from south africa, bringing that case from what the justice is going for in the provisional measures. But its also a function of a c d n reality that weve seen come out of goss, im. Yeah, one of the things that i would point out is that these rules, friends and allies have been saying to it. You know, what were trying to wrong comes up for you. Why are you making the so difficult . At least let more of this humanitarian stopping. So you called the, under the microscope, legally for the crime of full starvation. Israel has acted with the kind of hubris and arrogance can only come with a level of impunity where they expect me to carry on working. And theyre looking at this as a wait a minute on the front. So need some attention supposed to stop the i c c from doing this. When okay, maybe they didnt yesterday or the day before, but now this will kick in the will be fine of why this is so important. Is it, its a challenge to that. Impunity, this doesnt change things overnight. Theres no silver puts, but when its released initially, notice it mo, question, but its a question of pragmatism, an advocacy stall. The question is b, i c c can go off through all the just if companies and now say should we make that investment in tele, beef or somewhere else or more, keeps going to be more open to us. All weapon is going to keep flowing all research and develop a University Corporation is always going to continue as if nothing has happened with adults is that intuitive challenge and the cost benefit equation looks different then we might actually see a change. So i think the most Important Message coming out is who lives who are working to push impunity and accountability and to change that structure. We double your efforts because they are beginning to walk kate, to what extent are International Law on the reputation of the legal bodies that are supposed to uphold it at stake . Of all, i think very much say, i think in this whole situation, i think i got going back to the i c, j, a provisional measures decision and much daniel test referenced, i think that was a collective holding up press before that decision as well because you know there isnt comprehension, thats the i c, j wouldnt be as impartial as it. I believe its demonstrated itself to be wouldnt just apply the little and, and come out with a kind of decision it gauge. And i think thats been a similar feeling around the i c t y. I mean, we know about all the precious apple. Its a bad one. These institutions on the, you know, the Geopolitical Realities that walking. And i think its very important that i seem to be, to some extent, i mean, as far as possible, impartial. Thats what that in time legitimacy, russell. And id like to come back on the 2 sides in a point. If i may, i dont disagree with anything that was said, but i would like to point out that i think it would have been impossible for cream con, to issue indictments against any one policy to these complaints. And in fact, the framework of International International humanitarian knowing particular, the lowest of will, is one which just click on its policies to the conflict. As you know, the parties of the conflict in any motivation for fighting is irrelevant in the time that little. So its, it has this leveling fact for anyone whos fighting for whatever reason the, the question of a, just or otherwise. But it would volunteer each other party. Its adults by and of course explain it. Phones by both in this case is irrelevant. The point is, once youre in a conflict, you have to abide by these rules. So he has applied the rules. I would say hes chosen the offences that he is nice to Everything Else got conviction full. So i think hes probably followed the evidence. I think things like the, the non, if humanitarian assistance has such an old piece, one and the other one has picked. Of course, with regard to the use writing forces is the indiscriminate or exciting to deliberate targeting civilians. And my sick days. Probably the 2 most easy to produce and thats why hes gone in that direction. Genocide, as we know, is an extremely high threshold, very difficult and i could tie him up for a month and he might not be successful. We might see those charges coming down the line, but i think its not surprising that he issued the charges he to issue against these radius are these i think similarly, the ones have against the have mass need is what we put it on to the pages and i think it would have been quite impossible for him to procedures against any one party. Diana had asked them, out of the withdrawal of the migration is cleaning up the i. C. Cs, prosecute, who was equating the victim with the execution. Now, what do you make of of that response . What will the people of guns and the occupied palestinian temperatures make of it . So weve been as palestinians, weve been waiting for industry International Institutions to check in for as long as, as a israel has taken over our country and taken over our land. And we havent yet seen that these International Institutions do anything. So this house to me is were always told that we must resort to the law and we have many times whether that was in 2004 at the i c j. Whether again before is really courts, which it, weve always been told we have to use, which are obviously not usable to everything from now. The, i see, and so on. Policies have always put their faith in these International Institutions. And yet, its the same answer to International Institutions that have actually failed pals finance. And so this is why youre hearing the response that youre hearing. But on the issue of both sides, which i, what i, which i want to pick up on is this wasnt just a question of, of putting a labeling allegations against both sides. But its a question of which of the, of the issues were picked up on when it came to him us, there were suddenly 8 allegations when it came to israel, only 7. And yet we have this evidence of what it is that israels been doing this. And they made it blatantly obvious, and theyve actually been projecting it for the past 280 days. So its not that theyve kept it secret, as daniel said theyve been, its been very loud and very proud about this genocide that theyre committing. And even though the world has, has been telling israel, comet down comment down is real fuels and bold and to do whatever it is that it wants to do. And so now is palestinians were saying, well, if these institutions actually mean anything, you are going to be the ones that are going to stop this genocide because laughter, its own devices. Israels not, its going to continue to push on ahead because its been given a green light by the world community. Daniel, lets talk about reaction from the as really side then. Uh, providence to nothing. Yeah. Who said the challenge is an attempt to deny israel the basic right of self defense, the con is poor and gasoline on the fires of anti semitism that a raging across the world. How much of a, a blow to his administration was this . So lets look at a couple of things assessable this appeal to the outside world. Is it against us . My friends, this fits very comfortably with me. Complet safety, mental math that hes rileys, have it has been encouraged to develop when it comes to how do you relate to Something Like this. So i think the initial response, so weve seen that has been a, b, b, q, richard, resigned. The suckles has been a, a june to find all the rags. Some people will say, well, know what the cost on a don. Its going to help not send. Yeah, which is a silly thing to say because nothing, yahoo was not on the right of deluxe. The anytime soon hes coalition is stable and its not for the cool to not make his decision based on that consideration. Of course. So i think it is right. Youve seen people 1st of all come out against and this is very important because it tells us that this is not just about not so young. The guy who is the other, how to just be the next you to the right party just well visit because upfront again dont, wasnt good enough. The leader of the opposition. Yeah. The last page said, when its 50 agrees to the found the us know, while i was like a normalization package, then the height will go away. One of these notes. But its important for that reason that has the slowly sink. See, im actually not going to expect thinking hes really will over time question this and you have, of course, had a group of jewish race who have questions which said we have to take this seriously. Your goals have palestinian citizens to be sort of taking a different approach on the very intimidating circumstances. Deanna will love that better than any one. And then when it comes to the actual conduct of this assault on gaza, what it means, lets be clear, is ro, is going into russell, were hearing the same stories of the, well, you know, weve done what the americans said. We got the people out of rock come to safety. Theyve gone to areas where they faced the bombing desk disease, salvation, insufferable human conditions. Im pretty sure its almost like roaming. So these of course, for rest florence of being issued against those 2 individuals, nothing yalls doing deadlocks. If we cost on minds by only a week, they were longer hands, they were going assets against each other. Why . Because one would say, hey, we gave you political compet, eugene the chief of military victory. The other was saying, the better treated respect your didnt have a political plan. What is this really about . Its a blank window. Blaine james happened. They happened when there was a failure not only on the battlefield, but as we see now, legally, politically marty. Reputation of why is this . I have so many reasons why dont you said if your revenue kind of to is to say were going to have a reset, push things back into a reality of a pol, tightened band to stand by zation, then you have nothing to work with. And so this takes israels failings in this war to a whole new level, which of course does nothing to mitigate. How senior suffering bought this morning could lead to that and it could impact the other case that the i c j, the south africa case and the cold for immediate station because of whats happening in case you want to come back on what daniel was just saying that id also us extra say that im for the blinking said the dakotas overstepped it so far as he here has it. Certainly not. No, the quote has not started so far. So you, the prosecutor has authorization to carry out an investigation with the authorization. He proceed the investigation. I think diane is over the voice, the perspective that he took to, you know, i mean thats, thats certainly a position of that, that many people, his house. But he has applied the low to the facts that he was able to uncover in his investigations on these, the shooting diamonds. He has not paid a step to the 3rd to you is who i would say hes fulfilled his monday. Okay, what about the argument . Lincolns argument, the is really legal system should have thoughts but allowed the opportunity to proceed in a full, timely manner has to be drawn rushed. You said both you and diana was pointing out that its been too slow. Hows . He ignored . The principles of compliment parity was blinking, argued a tool that is an important principle in this not to the cool. So it would be, i could to nothing yahoo collapse. Oh as well in general to ask for jurisdiction either those cases they would be able to kind not jurisdiction look at that is to say that the i c c, the case would not be admissible as a formal process by which the chamber will look and see what the case is admissible at a later stage. And one of the grants for disability is that the case is not being, you know, prosecute. He didnt investigate in a, in a domestic court, which has jurisdiction. So there is a mechanism for that. The application could be made, but it would have to be really demonstrations that these charges the, or these, these acts the same acts that form the basis of these challenges. What actually being properly investigated. You can prosecute your denise. Ill find out how much political pressure do you think the court is going to come on the in the coming weeks and months can, can we expect sanctions do you think to be issued against judges and prosecutors are the i c, c, im a group of republican senators in the, the u. S. Is already one to cool that if it, if it goes up to israel, we will come off to you. What do you make of that . This is the us flexing its muscle and this isnt the 1st prosecutor that they have tried to strong arm, and i dont think it will be the last one either. So i fully expect that theyre going to try to go after cutting hon. I do want to ask you addressed the issue of using the is really courts. And its important to note that israel long ago passed a law that said that no cases that are inside guys that can actually be tried inside is really courts that the is really military has. Clark law should do whatever it wants. And weve seen this not just in the gaza strip, or weve seen aggression after aggression attack after attack, where israel has not at all been held to account within their own legal system. But we also see it when it comes to soldiers that are given a free hand in the west bank. If you look at the statistics that there are as effectively no mechanism by which to charge soldiers with any crimes and in which to prosecute anybody. For example, we have your colleague the killing of your colleagues 2 years ago should in a block clue who was, who was murdered as she was covering israels action in jenny and, and to this date. The family still doesnt even know the name of the soldier who killed her, and nobody has been held to account. So there is no system by which is real contrie itself. And so this is just yet another talking point that blinking others keep throwing out a so somehow to kick this out of the International Legal system because they know that what israels doing is fundamentally illegal under International Law. Okay, ive got about 2 minutes left. Daniel, i want to get another question and indicate, but its really politicians of course, as youd expect to run it around and nothing. Yeah. Who wont go out . What about the is where the public will, how will open rick is rileys feel about the fact that Prime Minister was the 1st western leader to have had an application for an arrest warrant with the 50 i, c, c. And the fact that it could. So the isolate israel for his war on guns that as well. What we have seen is that these rileys have been treated to a very similar take home every single this happened of the last month. Some of these rating media has an awful lot to also for. So i dont think youre going to see a blue Cross Section of that. Probably take a different position. The question that for is, how will this be followed up, not inside israel, but on the outside. And my one comments on that would be that if the west continues to run a couple of full results, we provide those weapons been dont expect change inside this route. The real challenge here is sure you called a camp in the west, which proud the west is a batch of pride that it is. That is why we keep wants to bring down the International Institutional architecture of law. The un, the i, c, c i, c, j to proceed with these. Lemme, i will be the rest against the west agenda. I think they will fail, but the question to the supposed to be 0 time, which on a good day place to care about International Lower than that institutional architecture and the criminal. Ready its in the us. What is that we should all be willing to continue to pay the costs for running public as well, which is dont through the roof. Exponentially installation of that costs the opposite, so far as the yes and the list, unless they change the outgoing to collapse the whole thing around them in order to defend these writing more crimes and the all types of homes finally came up on a minute left. What are the chances of us ever seeing those accused appearing before the International Criminal . Oh, thats a difficult one to projects and i would have sold the chances of seeing the mass lead as well. High as and a thing be is right and you need is just because of the, you know, the press a Political Support might be stronger. But i mean, who knows . We have seen, you know, when the last of which was indicted at the i. C t y, of course he was not in the same position jerry place at k as and i know he got net when middle speech was indicted, it was not clear that he would ever pay before that. And you can stop, you type email. He was also impala, he, you know, was deposed, and he was eventually hand. Todays, i mean, there are many factors behind that box, you know, never say never. Who knows what lies ahead for nothing. Yahoo glance asked in law at how thatd be left handed Manufacturing Day trip, macintosh dunny levy. And diana bu, to thanks for watching. You can see the program. I get it any time i go into the websites of all just 0. Dont com for further discussion. You can join us on Facebook Page at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story. And of course, you can join the conversational x on handle that at h right inside story from me a very instead of the same here. And so well see the theres a deliberate mission of posting in humanity in western and it needs to be questioned. This is not the time to, to mr. Kind of way. Examining the effect that News Coverage can have on democracies everywhere. Here at the listening bounced off to the 10 year journey in which it has become the most important translation award from an into the how to rubik language world wide shake come out award for translation and International Understanding of dumps is the opening of the nomination period. For the year 2024 starting march 1st to may. 30 fast nominations are made on the award official website w w w dot h t a dot q a forward slash e m. Business latest is brought to you while i guess, as i live by on one of your, this makes mazda inflates. The business latest is free for you. I guess is that an i my on one of your just makes model inflates the, [000 00 00;00] the color, the songs you pay in this is and use our life from the coming up in the next 60 minutes. So you and the agency of a palestinian refugees, it says its suspending food and deliveries. And rafa on israel step south, its as strikes on southern garza, is around orders. Seems to quit bends of the Associated Press to meet were tons of to shut down and use agencies. Live Camera Position overlooking garza exclusive video and matches showing. Is there any soldiers taking more than