Hello and welcome to the program. Im elizabeth put on a president s anatomy approved and, and shes been paying have much more than 40 times. The last 10 years signs of what the 2 latest cool a know limits partnership persians makes us. And as it comes, as it rushes dependents on, china has increased in the face of crippling west and sanctions imposed over some invasion of ukraine. Bathing support has most of the russian economy. And although it hasnt directly supplied moscow with weapons, the flow of Chinese Technology and goods have helped floor efforts west and pals increasingly troubled by the deepening friendship between russia and china. With this collaboration extend beyond the borders and couldnt lead to a shift in alliances and the global balance of power will put these and other questions to i guess in a moment. But 1st this report by up to some denford the. 2 2 2 symphonies to celebrate 75 years of diplomatic relations. So this is loading your foods in and she didnt things 3rd meeting in the year and pollutants 1st visit since the start of his 5th term in office. The president signed a joint statement on thursday, declaring a new era in what both countries called there are no limits partnership. Strengthening economic ties that ive kept, the russian economy going, despite severe western sanctions being posed after its invasion of ukraine. Trade between the 2 countries reach 240000000000 dollars last year, up 60 percent on pre war levels. As russia switched to importing goods from china. And crucially, to exporting cheap oil and gas boycotted by the west Vladimir Putin to visit and to boost this energy partnership. And then it gets just step street prostitutes aligned to the energy sector, which is become the supporting pillar of the entire Global Energy and resources market. Im sure well continue to strengthen a visit of symbolism to show that russia is not alone. Despite the us increasing pressure on chinese banks and industries not to contribute to russias war effort, we can see some indications of china maybe use tiring of the situation. The crane and the difficult position. It puts it in visa feet, russia, which is an important political partner. But then on the other hand, b you us, which are much more important training parlance and be seen on his visit to friends earlier this month. She agreed to control but not reduce exports, of multi use goods to russia, alongside pollutants, he presented china as a stabilizing force from the phones. Each of the both sides agree that a political solution to the ukraine crisis is the correct direction. The chinese side looks forward to the early restoration of pace and stability on the european continent, and will continue to play a constructive role to that end. The 2 also took aim at the United States on a range of Security Issues from ukraine to taiwan, saying they seek a counter balance to a us led world order that they both challenge to. So im getting food alda 0 for inside story on the spring and i guess and the market Senior Research fellow at center for china and globalization, he joins, as by skype from badging. Joining us for most go as chris, we saw his chief executive officer as a macro advisory. Thats a global list consultancy and Theresa Fallon is director of the center for russia, europe, asia studies. And shes joining us by skype from brussels. A very warm welcome to all of you, mr. Mark. Ill start with you in the aging. I think it would be fair to say that china is the dominant partner in this relationship. So whats that up ahead . What will the aging be looking for from present during this visit or . Well, elizabeth, i think the view from china and a growing consensus around the world is that the world is at a dangerous juncture, where peace and stability are threatened by us instigated actions. But for the United States, tens of thousands of innocent palestinians would still be alive. But for the United States, the conflict in ukraine would be far less disruptive than it has been. And finally, but for the us, tensions in the South Pacific would not be anywhere near as high as they currently are. So i think what china is looking for in these latest discussions with russia is how to mitigate ameliorate these challenges to global peace and prosperity. But of course, i think from the russian side of the situation, ukraine is most acute, but i think both sides recognize the wide spread diapers, threats to peace and prosperity in that concrete and meaningful action has to be taken to. Okay, so mr. Mark saying that china is very much looking to improve global pace and security in a partnership with russia and the United States in the west very much sees china and russia as one of the biggest problems to global peace and security. Mr. We for, lets, let me bring you in before we can talk about what the person will be looking for during this visit. I do want to address what bruton has already got from china in the last few years since the russian invasion of ukraine. How much has russias economy . Its a defense complex being impacted by western sanctions. And what role has china played in both store in both a big china has been critical. Is russia some of adapting and being able to adapt to, to the sanctions over the last couple of years . China is the biggest contributor to the russian. But just because of the fact its the biggest buyer of oil and other materials. Of course, everything from timber to, to island lumina, and we rushed to china is the biggest buyer. Theyre getting a good discount, of course, which helps to compare. Its just as of the chinese economy. But it is huge, steady cash flow into the russian budget. And that of course, has the money which is being used to fund the military Industrial Complex as well as provide. So itd be cut down because dependency. So china is being critical. Of course the, the preparation for building up this trade. It hasnt just comes in egypt reaction to the defense of to sanctions. Russian, china, ive actually been building up the relationship since sanctions for star, because after crime did spring of 2014, for example, the built, the big east library and pipeline get oil pipeline which takes more than a 1000000 barrels a day, directly into china. And also, of course, heavy investment into elegy and other materials. So china has been very critical in supporting russias economy and therefore allowing the russian economy to, if youd like to survive and to be in what is a good position today. All right, lets tell them what did you make of adding marks, remarks about what china is looking for. From russia, you know, these are we advancing global pace and security. And i also want to ask you when the 2 countries talked about how the partnership has no limits and not the 1st time theyve said that theyve said it for a few years. Now, i want to know is that really the case . Do you think . Can china continue to support russia despite the economic, the diplomatic cost . Well, thank you, elizabeth. I think andys paper book must be alice in wonderland. Look into the mirror because i really dont recognize anything. He just said. We just saw. She can ping visited europe and the visited friends hungry and serbia. And she didnt think its very difficult balancing act here to mean the size of the russian economy is smaller than that of italy. Whereas for china, europe is a key, a economic market for them. And theyre, they need to have a very careful balancing act, trying to help pretend because of their no limits agreement that was announced in february 2022 just week days prior before the invasion of ukraine and, and then they have to type kind of try to tote, your of that, were not really supporting putting when we see all the figures that chris we for just noted that this helps keep the military Industrial Complex going and buying this low cost. Oil and gas actually fills the paid a box for to keep the war going on and ukraine. So i think that she just ping is fearful of losing these markets. York is actually talking about the risking and theyve announced a lot of investigations into possible dumping. Foreign direct investment issues are becoming coming to a head and all sorts of electric vehicles are piling up at the ports for example. So i think the china is in a very difficult situation, but now theyre in it when it, because they have their, in one sense, had cost to put in. And so they dont want to see putting fail because theyre fearful. The, the next leader russell might be more westbridge leading, so they need to keep russia inside their tent even though they pay a huge reputation on costs for that to. Yeah, as mr. Mont, china has been trying to walk into plastic type, troy presentation, balancing support for russia, while not antagonizing countries in the west. I mean, russia is Something Like chinas on 6th largest trading partner. It does much more trade with the us. And the issue, is it really possible to route that tightrope successfully . I think certainly it is. Um, elizabeth and we can look at this from a more negative perspective. As i think theresa laid out the western view. I think a more positive take one. This is that china plays a very Important Role to russia as weve just for it plays a very Important Role to europe as well as the United States. Some of the issues that are impacting the Us China Relationship and the you, china relationships are actually going to be sentence of whats going on with russia. So i think china has a number of very, very powerful of cards to play. If we look at the transition to a sustainable economy, there is little doubt that china is the Technology Leader in key components like batteries. It has the manufacturing scale to produce low cost, high quality, technologically advanced vehicles, as well as the design capability to provide consumer facing products that consumers really cherish. So uh the you of course has some concerns about this in terms of what this will do to their domestic auto. Ready industry, but this is not just trying to eaves, we also have to recognize the transition from internal combustion engines to the manufacturing is also disruptive to the traditional ottoman motive industry. So yes, there are complex issues, a hard thing to call it. A balancing act is certainly not incorrect, but i think china is position is much stronger and it can play it much more powerful and pivotal role in bridging between russia and the u, including even the United States, i would say, okay, well, thats the way one of the cap issues got discussion is of course, financial transfers between the 2 countries off of the us and post secondary sanctions in december. You know, on banks that are doing business with sanctions, individual sanction companies, also sanctioned products. How much of an impact all those 2nd re, sanctions, those nations, secondary sanctions having on this relationship to those sanctions, which kind of crept up in his last december day where he, where he, where and sort of, you know, it made a big deal at the, at the time, but those particular sanctions that are actually now causing the biggest problem, potentially pose the biggest risk for their, for russias economic stability. Because the rush of course is being able to find ways to export goods date because fleet saved getting around to probably the price gap. But if it can be paid for those goods, of course, then you can see that would be a major problem. And this has been a growing problem which trade partners as since the beginning of the year since the us really made kind of a big efforts to get the message across to banks in china and turkey and the emberts in india. Its actually that they are running the risk of secondary sanctions if they are found to be involved in any transaction with a sanctioned individual or entity or as or a sanction process such 6 or so weve seen, as you alluded to, lots of banks in all those countries just pulled back from russia and like take the, the, the caution we step of not to gauging it any from pencil transactions with restaurants. And this is causing a huge problem. So it is definitely is one of the top topics, or one of the main issues that president putin wants to talk to china about. They want to find a political solution to this. Some way to to financially channel does not get blocked. Unpacked rush, it can be paid for the products, its selling china, as well as being able to pay for the products that its important from china. And its exactly the same conversation displaying that were present, present air to gun from turkey, a with, with Prime Minister modi and with the head of the, the average. This is a huge problem and it definitely be, i think its fair to say its not all that the only reason why president putin decided to go to beijing so quickly after an operation 30 there factors. But its definitely one of the most pressing problems that they need to resolve otherwise. Just okay. Yeah. As major. Thatll be by the, by the order. Yeah, absolutely. I sold it march the seals. This. Yeah. So an 8080 percent of the payments settlements from russia to china and balancing at one point. And thats according to a pro kremlin business newspaper ms filing. You know, this week the Us State Department accused, shes in pings, administration of rebuilding rushes military, industrial base. Im freshman what quote, appropriate action. So even as we see the great impact of those 2nd re sanctions that came into force in december, could we be looking at more action and what might that look like . And they have been signaling very loudly that this is what they plan to do. Now if we look at the sanctions of Chinese Companies compared to europe, the us presently has about 100. 00 and youre only has 3. So they might of course, uh, or put pressure on your up to actually sanction more. And what china is very fearful of are the secondary sanctions. So this is something that, that is some leverage that the us has. And i think we also have to remember, according to patients narrative about sovereignty, we saw a rasa in Beta Software in country, and according to the, the p, r c. They, they are against that. So theres a lot of kind of of hypocrites here because you dont say that china is going to be a Bridge Builder when theyre actually supporting defacto russell as invasion of ukraine. And weve seen increased exercises with jets over a nuclear public, capable carrying jets over or near the waters of japan. Were seeing more of china, russia, Maritime Cooperation and exercises. So i think its not that theyre so far away from, from russia. In fact, theyre doubling down under cooperation and i think she jumping really miscalculated. He didnt understand how the russia threat was such a huge issue for the europeans. I think he thought it was just not a big deal. They wouldnt pay too much attention after 2014, with the exception of crimea. We saw germany signed a gas fuel just one year later. So i think he didnt expect that europe would see this as such a, a major concern and a top priority for them. So i think he didnt expect to have such a push back from the europeans as well as the americans as a lot, how much of a concern is the war and youre crying for changing, paying as an asylum mentioned. You know, russia has been carrying out military exercises using Tactical Nuclear weapons. Surely china does not want to see this i think china is position has been consistent and universal in that dispute should be so. Ready through consultation, mutual respect, etc. Now we know that the real world can be much messier than that. Unfortunately, i think that with respect to the ukraine conflict, its well recognize that theres 3 wars that the us is biting your. I think their strategy has been well articulated in many parts of the world to fight russia down to the last ukranian in that there is the battlefield in ukraine. There is the propaganda war being far on western media. And theres also the financial war as well that i think this is the one that really is front and center for many trainings, policy makers. And that when we look at the dollar gemini, in terms of us dollar as a courtesy trade us lift is that these are issues that clearly are on the agenda between china and russia. But the developing accelerating. I think the need for alternative Financial Systems that are not weaponized and this in the long run is going to be highly detrimental. Yeah. To the United States. I was just going to put yeah, im going to ask mr. Lisa, about, you know, china and russian doing most of the trade in their own currencies. Next, i just wanted a quick answer from you, mr. Mark on. Does china want russia to end the war with ukraine . Yes or no. And i think the answer certainly is yes, isnt it . But again, i think that we can uh there, theres clearly different views on the cause of this conflict. And i think theresa has one set of believes about this. Many other people around the. Ready and i would say most of the people outside of the angle forward a sort of a sort of the angle for world have a completely opposite view as to the cause of the conflict. So i think china and definitely wants to see this conflict resolved through a political mechanism as i believe presidency has said, yeah. And the political mechanism that they for, for one is absolutely not acceptable to cave or any of that. So west and back as mr. We for the month to touch on, you know, the, the increase in trade, in fact, 90 percent of president s, she and pollution say 90 percent of trade between the 2 countries is taking place and their own currencies. Now is that significant as well . Yes, it is. Uh and uh, again, a, refer to the sites that uh, both china and russia have were preparing. Dont be in the 2nd word preparing for the scanner. What happens since february 22, but were preparing kind of, you know, for, for some level of independence or for some different systems from air. The 2014, i mentioned your pipeline, but also put a taste in that period was a direct Settlement System between the central bank of russia and the central bank of china. So in other words, it doesnt, a payments settlements between the 2 countries and no longer rely on using, for example, swift, which of course, russian banks, most of russian banks have been stated from. So theyve done a lot of power to work. And this of course is feeding into the, the emission like us to say to expands the bricks formats and may have into something bigger and, and maybe, and something thats, yeah, i know alternative to, to china and russia see is as, as western dominance. So i think a big part of the conversation there for the let in the last couple of days will be about preparing for the next break summit, which is held in the tobar. Because we now have quite a few candidate countries, including saudi arabia, the average egypt, and the others that will have to decide by a tobar, whether you are going to formally join and expand it breaks and russian, china will, i think, move on to be quote, we want to coordinate what messaging that they want to give to those countries and what message dont want to give at breaks. And a big part of it will be about trade, cooperation, about financial sections. It was the independence of the dollar. And some extend creating, you know, an alternative Economic System or maybe not so much Economic System, but he cannot make kind of a philosophy within. And they spend the brakes to combat with the west rather than the parts of the as they see it. The western dominate is of the economic world. Yeah, and im glad that you push into the conversation as we approach the end of the show. You know what the, its relationship between china and russia also means all the lines, as most notably, brooks, they are looking to expand this call. And i want to ask you about, you know, what washes invasion of ukraine has meant for chinas view towards taiwan. Has it emboldened to china or perhaps made it more cautious . If i could just pick up on one point, you know, one of the easiest ways to end this war is for it, Russian Troops to leave. You can, we dont need all these like speaking points. All we need is for russia to leave ukraine. Second point would be that, yes indeed. This is a big distraction. The were and you can because it was a and you said to of china would love to see it and try it away. But i dont think thats the case because its distracting us attention from their most important competitor, which is china in the, in the pacific region. And so this is a useful distraction for them. And china is learning a lot of things about stress testing the economy. We just talked about the payment systems, theyve also learned about the inexpensive john worst there and also how the ukrainians communicate it using star link. And so they, they looked for ways to prevent this happening in taiwan. So on one hand, they think that if you open the pandoras box of war, there are very unexpected things that could happen. That means put in expected, this were the engine 3 to 5 days. Now were starting, were in the 3rd year this. So that is not something i think its, she jumping with what wed want, something quick and easy, but there are other ways you can squeeze the country. There are ways of, you know, winning without fighting. And so i think that if theres any positive aspect of the horrific suffering and death in ukraine is that it might have given, she can pause to think about impeding type one that we know the language thats being used. Be prepared for war by 2027. The type of narrative is coming out of china. Young people, you know, really talking about war. And its really ugly, its, its really discouraging. And i know we all want to be optimistic and have an optimism bias. But i think that, you know, beating the war drum and this, this period, i think what has been clear under siege and ping is that he is more interested in security rather than the economy. So the economy is already facing horrible head winds, never democratic problems. I know there will be sanctions probably are to increase terrace under exports and weve seen what happened in the us 100 percent terrace on there. Id like to give you a piece. So theres going to be a lot of pushback from the us and europe. I expect that to happen as well. So i think that they have to calculate very carefully and, you know, be helping themselves to put in and pretending that theyre not so closely aligned with them when, when all we see is deeper a convergence and even their statement when theyre holding up those little documents that they just signed, you know, the, theyre, theyre, theyre noticing that payment deeper cooperation. And of course were not. We dont see whats in those documents in the secret. But i think that this is something that the rest of the world should be concerned about. And were seeing a growing bifurcation, they want to have a separate economic area. They want to have a big spheres of influence. And they think that this is something, and thats a month we all learned what happened about the spheres of influence and the post world war 2 era was supposed to make it, you know, globalization free trade, all of these positive things. And were seeing she and putting doubling down on something that we didnt expect to see. Again, this growth of authors during this im yeah, lets face whos, whos running to move to russia . Whos running to move to china these days . Oh, yeah, the lift them off. Would you like to come back on that on whether china can really afford this closeness with russia given all of those precious . Well, not surprisingly, i see this completely differently. I think that clearly, as weve spent this program talking about that china and russia are spending its ties. But look at breaks, look at whats going on with your on look at whats going on with our set, the regional comprehensive economic partnership, china really deepening ties throughout the world, even in south america, latin america, with brazil, that really a europe is a question mark. Certainly, i think theresa makes great point. There are legitimate concerns that the europeans have about how to adapt to world where it is chinese and checking the logical leadership. It is chinese manufacturing costs competitive lives and it, it is the chinese build quality that is leading the way when we thinking of automotive used to be the germans. So this one has a huge show, and i think that they are concerned about russia. What are russians long term intentions are, these are legitimate concerns, but i think theres a question mark here. And again, i think china is on a far, far stronger and more influential position than i think theresas or try or i think, well, we have run out of time, but thank you for all of i guess for this very nicely debate that is and the welcome page and chris wafer in moscow and Theresa Fallon in brussels and thank you to for watching. You can see the program again any time by visiting our website, which is 0 dot com. As a further discussion do go to a Facebook Page that facebook dot com forward slash a inside story. You can also join the conversation on x. I handle this at a j inside story for me, elizabeth put on him and the whole team here, bye for now. The the latest news as it breaks this years march. Its a message, not just for the cards government, but also for the incoming ones that theyre not going away until they know what happened to their loved ones with detailed coverage, millions of farmers. Now how rare thing that wed cross by day, whether they may not get that good right because the Risk Management of wait am phone from around the world for prizes rose sharply. Yeah. Inside. When neighboring nigeria restricted as a unique perspective, why is it the doctors dont get to have a say in any of the medical workforce has been so and devalued by the British Government for such a long time on hub voices. 6, ive had been a place for organizing politically, for getting people to vote for getting people to protest, connect with our community and tap into conversations you werent find elsewhere. 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