These really army committed crimes against humanity by carrying out summary executions that you in. And you were calling for urgent investigations. And the us so that once answers to international law, demands a through and independent inquiry to uncover the truth behind these deaths and ensure accountability below israel ever be held to account for his actions in gaza. Well put that to our guests in a moment. First, this report from actual assignment, which of a haunting site that the necessary medical facility in, con eunice or bodies remain on plaint. Evidence of a mass grave has come to light after these rarely army left the compound. These are not the only victims found in gaza at the beginning of april. Similar discoveries were made it ill chief a hospital following and its really military operation. Satellite images confirmed the existence of 2 mass graves and these hospital premises. We feel the need to raise the alarm to raise the alarm, because clearly, there has been multiple bodies discovered. We dont know how many there are reports that some of them had their hands tied, which of course indicates a serious violations of International Human human rights law. And International Humanitarian, those women when that and older people buried deep and coverage in waste are among the victims. As the bodies begin to decompose, theres a pressing call for an investigation. Experts say any independent inquiry needs a neutral party. If you want an independent organization, do it, go to a country. If you find one thats willing to go in because thats, that is not engaged in the concrete by the supply of arms or otherwise an awesome. But as i put together, our Forensic Team will go in and do the job. And i think that happens occasionally in the former yugoslavia where you had a great deal of mass, great work that has to be done. Forensic investigations were conducted after mass graves were found in strep, or need so in other towns in boston, heres the coffee. Now, the International Commission on missing persons initiated by informing us president bill clinton, helped in identifying victims and prosecuting war crimes with similar investigations under way in ukraine and syria. After the discovery of mess burial sites. Many wonder if the International Focus will shift the gaza and the question is if his role will allow impartial investigators to enter the strip. Since it already stands accused of genocide at the International Court of justice. Addressing these masked ways is crucial. Not only for the family seeking closure, but for the broader goals of finding justice and preventing such acts from happening ever again. Axels, im gonna reach out to 0 for insights. Story the. All right, lets go ahead and bring in our guess in durham, one source room on gods us citizen journalist who took refuge at an officer hospital for months during the conflict in the hague, andreas kaiser, director or for policy and cooperation of the International Commission on missing persons and in geneva, kenneth roth, visiting professor at Princeton School for public and International Affairs and the former executive director of Human Rights Watch one, welcome to all. Thanks so much for joining us today on inside story im, im sort of let me start with you today. The policy and Civil Defense team says evidence from mass graves in the ground and also the hospital and fun units clearly shows these really arm and carried out. Summary executions. Youre in touch with people on the ground there. You spent so much time there yourself. What are you hearing, or what im hearing is that this is yet another mass grave found in another hospital in another part of us that we found something, some of that in the north of laza, in the middle of the region of us in the us, the city itself and now were finding kids and also at hospitals around 400. 00 bodies have now been found, covered in different kinds of plastic covers different colors. Many of the people have been identified. And some of them i have known personally when whether they were nurses, doctors, patients in the hospital, or even women and children, whoever residence off the ground in also the hospital there. At the same time, many bodies that have been found but have not been identified yet because their lives have been caught that heads up there anymore. Many of them have lost that organs and then zipped up again. And it is what on this it is so really that after over 200, these we are still talking about investigations and forensic studies where we all know who the perpetrator of the squad crimes are. And to be honest, i dont know for how long the world can stay silent regarding what is happening right now. In addition to this mass of grief and loss of hospital like me to mind the viewers that there are tens of thousands of dollars, not only those have been killed and injured, but those who we do not know where they are. So we are a few of them of them or fee of seeing so many other mass of grief, similar to this 1. 00. And what the shame that the International Community is still quiet. And its still not doing anything to stop this genocide. The terms against the scene in people than husband kenneth gaza is a war zone. How is it possible to go about gathering evidence when this kind of conflict is going on . And so much evidence can and is being destroyed. Well, i think what you speak to is, 1st of all the importance of physical presence. And these raymond government has blocked physical presence, both by foreign journalists, but also by human rights defenders. And perhaps the most important because you were speaking about accountability, they have refused access to investigators showing the International Criminal court. The dreadful body that has jurisdiction over war crimes and gaza and could very well prosecute the perpetrators here. So its not impossible to do an investigation the middle of a war. I mean, this would require, you know, simply cooperation by the most science. Im sure that you know, from us would give safe passage to the real question is what israel. But israel doesnt want to get the safe passage. It doesnt want to allow these kind of independent investigations. It just wants to kind of sweep issue under the bravo. Or maybe itll do what he usually gets, which is to say, were gonna investigate ourselves, which typically results in either we never hear anything here again for a whitewash. And i think its, you know, that white washing, which is why boasting United Nations and the European Union have stress the importance of an independent investigation. That means not. And is really self investigation. Now the Us Government thing get gone that far. If they have solved age. Busy low and transparent investigation, but they didnt use the magic word, an independent investigation, but thats what we need. We need somebody other than these, right . You wish to look at this and we need access sooner rather than later because your bodys decomposing is more difficult over time to figure out exactly what have andreas, when it comes to mass grave sides and investigating and preserving forensic evidence. How crucial is it that professional Forensic Experts with the right kind of equipment with the needed resources that theyre able to access those sites as quickly as possible so that the sites arent contaminate . The yes, finding the data is absolutely critical, not quite the forensic investigation. So tell me about this and test applying. So basic archeologist, so an answer apologise is my purse, i a critical be some investigation was conducted in an official feinberg. So the, the question about the music media posts is thats also, i mean well come mandate effectively. So independent investigation that will be the, the know the steps have been taken by the United Nation so potentially interpret for about the fiber. If its on an invitation, us extended to an International Organization about a time the system such and such a investigations. Now be fund already in the identification as a victim citation replaced about this. Um presumably, um done. Not necessarily employing scientific means which im in cost. So something im the risk im so these um, identifications would probably have to have to be confirm that should also be included. And so to apply to the uh, the previous experience of course um is gonna Show Commission on missing persons. I cmt has been um, extensive with you. I am assisting for some explanation of mass clay funds examinations. Recovering victims. Sometimes i tend to find remains in support or from domestic and also international authorities. Also in the context of the criminal investigations. In particular, i end up for many people out here. Um, what does the critic onto people mind to set all the investigations for be done with a few of collecting evidence to a stand up and hold up in a court of law. Mm hm. It has to be about um lets perpetrators have a different um, but narrative of mass placed them. Um, um the populate or pick the assessment process sent out to have sort of convincing account provided refutable evidence of what happened. It is important to have expos of a high caliber in boston months or you spoke earlier about the frustration when it comes to Hearing International actors and rights, bodies call for investigations and yet still, atrocities are happening. I want to ask you about the fact that after the discovery of, of this latest mass graves, there are more calls. There are calls from the you in the, you, in for a, for an independent investigation. You have the, the west calling for a transparent investigation. But theyre not going as far as calling for an independent investigation. Do you, do you think there will be sufficient International Pressure now that this could actually happen, or will it be more of the same . Unfortunately, i think the way the laws are set up in the world right now, especially on the international stage, is that the support and the one who is the right is the one who is strong. The one who has the power and right know the veto power, right . Those in the hands of the us and allies of design a state. Unfortunately, i do not have a lot of a lot of confidence that the International Agencies can do any think. I remember when i was in also hospital together with tens of thousands of, of those of refugees in the hospital. And in the schools around us. We were told by these International Agencies that we were in a safe place. We were on the safe zone that the idea for not attack and death, we have nothing to where do we have nothing to fear. However, on one morning, the idea came in with the trucks with the, with their, with their to forklift with the tanks, with their soldiers and attacked the people inside the school was inside the also hospital and forced deep and like myself to sleep. And in addition to that, it took with its hundreds of lives. Its like were talking about 2 different part of the worlds here. You have talking about the world where the theory and human rights talk about what should and will happen. But the reality is that what is happening right now, kind of wait for these International Agencies to talk to us about what should happen because time is running out, time is running out. And what does this happen in most of the hospital now . Is going to happen soon in that off in the hospitals, death to the people there. And the, the blood of these people wouldnt be stains on these International Organization that reputation and these countries out on the world claiming human rights and democracies for ever. What is happening right now wouldnt be a stain on everyone right now. Whos calling for that . I think to be done, but its not doing it. We need action enough words, we need action on the ground right now. Kenneth, i saw you are reacting there to what month floor was saying hes talking about the fact that he along with others, were housing themselves in these medical complexes that are supposed to be protected under International Humanitarian law. And you have time. And again, weve seen these hospitals and medical complexes come under siege in gaza. Will these words translate into action . Will israel be held to account for this . What needs to happen for this to stop . Well, 1st appointed the hospitals. I mean, the hospitals are present definitely protected. They can lose their protective status if the other side uses them for military purposes. Now israel has no history here of saying that her mouth, you know, for example, the supposed to have a major command center under all shape a hospital. And that was going to justify israel going in. And you know, basically occupying the biggest hospital in gospel at a point of shoot me at a point where people are being bombed every day. It is exactly when you need a hospital and israel took it over, you know, evacuated the patients. And that was the 1st time theyre going to take the original shape. But you know, when they, at the end of that, to show the suppose the command center where they show us, you know, a handful of rifles. You know, a little bit of military equipment. One tunnel that a former is really prime ministers that actually, you know, we, these railways built back and we patrol gas the city. So, you know, theyve been very unsuccessful in demonstrating the military justification for taking over these hospitals and have a sense of what you see as they seem to be recognizing palestinians need for health care and a moment of acute need by depriving them, you know, of the physical facilities, i mean now i think the w h o says 10 out of the 36 hospitals are minimal. We functioning israels been loc heating and are really preventing much of the necessary medical equipment from coming in. So, you know, this is a direct assault on the palestinians 1000000000 population. Now, you know, the good question. Well, what can we do about this . And lets talk about, you know, both the International Court and the Us Government because i think these are parallel processing. The internet from federal court. I mean, it is difficult at this moment. It doesnt have permission to go into the office. So something you know, like a mass grave, which really does require a forensic investigation. As weve just heard, its going to be hard for it to do that. But there are major war crimes where they get an actual criminal court all already has the evidence, you know, one which is not even about the other is the settlements, you know, the settlements are a war crime. There are violation of article 49. 00 of the 4th geneva convention, which prohibits an occupying power from sending its population into occupied territory. Turn time. The chief prosecutor has that evidence. The people order in this way settlements are going up to the top. He hasnt done anything. The other thing that he is though hes talked repeatedly about this, he has the evidence that is where it was blocking food. It start patient strategy. He doesnt need a more evidence for insight, gaza. He has that. Hes threatened to act on it, but he hasnt andreas let me ask you to follow up on a point that kenneth was making there. Because i saw you reacting to some of what he was saying when, when it comes to these issues of International Justice without an independent investigation taking place. Can the discovery of, lets say, this latest mass grave cannot be added to some of these forms where cases may be happening. Like lets say, the International Court of justice, the case of south africa brought against israel accusing of genocide and gaza. Or if the icpc were to take up the case and get involved later from o experience. But also going back to the former yugoslavia and the tribes stopped and took place in the hague including p. Im the twice about for mr. Law that some kind of change comes concerning class in on the amount of a sudden they need. So it is crucial to be able to will provide evidence of the circumstances of the establishment of these mass place of who is in these mask race off. Um, so that then so from um of crime. So including trauma so that it takes us with prologic of explanations of the remains. Otherwise, it is perfectly a piece of possible for electric perpetrators to claim that a mass place on fact um and the texas to visit them. Its in the sense that persons phone remains found in these last place i died of various causes died in combat. The products to, to, to hospital locations. Um, but they eventually on the died and mass please can data legitimately use them for scope. The so soft thickness side treatment of she only remains on a temporary basis until but the visual and some co memorized. This can be carried out. All of these arguments have been made in it twice before the international promote the former yugoslavia and needed to be the future but as a strong and see a evidence or months. Or if i could ask you more of a personal question, you talked about your experience there and also the hospital and those whom you know who, who have been there when it comes to making the choice, to try and take refuge at a site where people are being told that it is protected, and yet the fear is that it will not be protected that it will be attacked. What is that choice like for palestinians and guys who want to just protect themselves and their family members . And i think the palestinians and the ones that i know believe they dont have a choice. And they never did have a choice before. And then also will split it off. That its, that it just trying to see could have huge wherever they can away from the id f and its genocide to attempt. Please remember that drones hobo had told is on his whole footing over them. 247, you know, in kind of a psychological warfare. And in addition to the expectation that at any moment they can be taught to get to their loved ones can be targeted. They can lose further things that they have owned, whether it be tangible or intangible. I mean, if were talking about the physical impact and it was about later on, uh, we are gonna be starting to measure the mental impact, the trauma impact. And i think that the time for um, investigation and looking into who is perpetrates. And this is, i mean this is, i think, i think were all done with this right now. Were talking about taking action and a big substitution to the, to the 10s of thousands of students across the world. Especially the United States. Universities who are taking on their campus is saying that, you know, its time to free palestine and its time to ensure that, that as a has a permanent ceasefire. And thats a, that each has the people there, you know, the, the politicians and those in power need to listen to this generation. That is now looking at things from, from, from, from an impartial view of seeing. The evidence 1st tend being sent to live on television, on Different Social Media platforms and the palestinians on the ground. When they will stay steadfast. They know that they are on the side right side of history. They do not want a repeat of 19481967. And they cannot do that without the support of people. Like here, ill just see it applying to show the news. People around the world demonstrating, continuing to boycott, continue to lovely, the politicians. Its important that everyone continues to do that because all of that results in a positive impact on the people on the ground. And by this time, well continue to try to hear the news fight to get the 8 that is, that is reaching them and into it. Cuz i was talking to a friend who is im find you and us. And he was setting the about, about his brother that was in one of these mass graves and, and, and he said the most sore despite of seeing all of this, at least i know that ive seen my brother. Ive seen my brother, ive seen him in his flesh, and i know whats happened to him. Hopefully hes in a better place than thought advice. But think about the thousands watch to dont know the fate of their loved ones. Again, people are looking for action. So we are asking those International Organizations we are asking that you and the i c g to do right now what but a scene ians needs put an end to this war. Open make up government and sees fire. In short, theres a no fly zone of, of on this fine. And also pretty brought us to union states and make sure that a breach is 2300000, but a scene is that need look like now. Kenneth, i saw you reacting somewhat much sort of was saying there it looks like you want us to jump in, so please go ahead. Uh, yeah, i mean if i were um, you know, were focusing most of the show on the justice, the accountability question cuz its important and obviously it crim, kind of work a charge if you dont have an yahoo for example, that would be a big deterrent for these kinds of wilcox, but, you know, i think much was absolutely right that the real issue here is stopping the joint. You know, how do you stop the bump argument to civilians . Have you stop the starvation less than one person in the world . So really has the capacity to exert sufficient pressure on that to know who is joe by and you know, we saw that either when he sort of vaguely threatens to condition us aid if thats a lot of didnt allow in more food. Suddenly a little bit more, so google allowed you provide me is not really been willing to exert that link. She hasnt been willing to say, im the stop arming in funding your work. Crimes enjoys stop period and are here at this point is still discussing with let and yahoo, how to get tech prov. You know how to get, move 1400000 people to a, you know, a beach front that is really unprepared to, to receive them. And where, you know, given history, israel, we just found that anyhow. So, you know, what we really need is buying depression. Nothing. Yeah. And buying is only going to do that. If he sees a real political cost for his current farming and complicity and as well. So thats why the purchasing United States really not are, you know, by and has an election coming up. He does have to care about Public Opinion. And Public Opinion is very rapidly sour. And by this complicity in these work, andreas, we dont have a whole lot of time left, but it looked like you were reacting to what kenneth was saying there. So i want to give you a chance to jump in if you want it to a i c, p of International Commission on this in person has made us very clear, but to satisfy the to assist mass space in the investigation. At the request of authorities that move will of course, have to house the batting of the United Nations that really have to have from the backing of the of the policy. So before you understand the term, the big question marks my other policy is going to be willing to submit a forensic investigation on the ground. I would want to know if or on the line as was said earlier, but it does not exclude us counting or to such an independent investigation in the short term if conditions and in particular the participation of the under the permission of the parties of pressing perspective that song has to be kept in mind, but for the understanding is absolutely understandable to, to see a disappointment with International Organizations and potential. Thats when you have to keep in mind that International Organizations to depend on the willingness of parties to cooperate 6 months or despite where things stand right now, despite how dire this situation is in gaza, are you hopeful that eventually there will be account ability . Do you think that there will be sufficient pressure on israel that in the long term there will be accountability, 100 percent, 100 percent time hold for together with all of the palestinians. And those who love freedom around the world. History repeats, so smoke what happened in south africa. Sim, something, some of that is going to happen here. And in the us and follow stain is just a matter of time. I think slowly into the national pressure. If you look at the macro politics is changing, if you look at the modes of, of the people, its changing. If you look at the media covering, its changing. So i think it will happen. Its just a matter of time. But the question is, how much more with the palestinians and it was a need to suffer before this time comes in and i hope not, not, not, not, i hope not tomorrow, not any more time. All right, but we have run out of time. So were going to have to leave the conversation there. Thanks so much to all of our guests today on social mon, andreas kaiser, and kenneth ross. And thank you to for watching. You can see the program again any time of visiting our website. Ill just share a dot com and prefer the discussion go to our facebook page, thats facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. You can also join the conversation on x. I handle is at a j inside story. For me, how much enrolled me in the entire team here, bye for now. The the latest news as it breaks, another mazda gray of yours more power, city, and bodies, over 3 of the, their identities are largely lost in on, on a president in war. With in depth reports that scale, this was something theyve never seen before. 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You and once evidence from the mass graves in garza to be protected off, the palestinian Officials Say they have proof that people would torture to execute,