Color of the and welcome to the program. Im joe. Know how the war and ukraine has cost tens of thousands of lives and rages on just over 2 years off the rush is invasion. Ukrainian forces are fighting with weapons supplied by the west and whats become the Largest Military engagement against Russian Forces in europe since world war 2. So im sorry, the fighting is at a stalemate, but the conflict remains of all the time. The danger in the heart of europe, russia is president for the me, a puts in his, again, was the west that hes prepared to use Nuclear Weapons if the force is a used against his country. Now the leader of the Catholic Church pipe fonts is quoting for peace negotiations, saying, raising the white flag for talks, takes courage. Whose comments have been sharply rebuked by ukraine is a cold to surrender. But have been welcomed in moscow so whose right is their merits and what the pope has said. Is it time to talk, or should ukraine back by its western allies fight to on and do the popes views reflect thinking on the ukraine wont be on the earth in the us and the so called global south. Well be discussing this and more with guests in just a few moments, but 1st this report from image and kimber. Im what the pope actually said. And the reaction to is remarks a pipe francis, the leader of the Catholic Church has urged an end to the ukraine war and the store of negotiations. Its a position differing from ukraine, the u. S. And its nato allies in the european union. Were not by renee or the would negotiate is a courageous would when you see that your defeated, when things arent going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate. Will make the shame. But how many will end up dead from this will. And he criticized the argument of self defense. So i am, boy, how many did you say that you have this responsibility to defend yourselves . But then you realize that they have to bomb the others. Thats not defending, thats destroying. Look what it will brings. Death, destruction children without parents. The popes views have been sharply criticized in ukraine, ukrainian presidency. Lensky alluded to the popes comment, saying, all religions in ukraine are united in fighting russia. Yeah, job hope was, i think every ukrainian chaplain who supports the army. So this is what happens when the church is with the people, not 2 and a half 1000 kilometers away, somewhere to mediate virtually between someone who wants to live and someone who wants to destroy you. The cranium for administer, dimitra cri, labor. Said that a strong person gets done with a good relative negotiating. The criticism of the popes comments also came from poland for administer, not fee, as president , and the head of the ukrainian greek Catholic Church, a. So here, which has good relations with like russia and ukraine, has again, also to mediate tools. And a p summit is being planned in switzerland without russia being invited with me there by trumpet, stomach you where we do not see russian representatives of this summit. We do not see how we can invite people that destroy and kill everything we want results. We want adjustment, peters adjust the piece for ukraine. So 1st, the civilized countries of the world will develop a plan to a cheaper result and then involve representatives from russia. Those who are ready for adjusted piece will digital, ukraines leader maintains that peace will not come at the cost of any of these countries over in territory. But on the battlefield. Theres Little Movement on the front lines. A planned ukrainian offensive last year made little impact on heavily defended russian lines. President vladimir persians forces whole parts of the east and crimea, which was onyx in 2014 and repeatedly launch misaligned and joined attacks when you craning and cities. All political bottles in washington could have a big se on what happens next. Theres growing a position from us republican politicians to the high cost of funding the will who wins the us president ial rice may also have a big impact with ukraine and its european allies, feeling what might happen to nato in us support. If donald trump wins reelection, image and kimber, ill just 0 the inside story. The. When i spring in our panel now in the ukraine in capital key, if we have a lot of them, it gave them a lend coat. Hes chief editor of ukraine world with james to explain new kinds of politics and society to an International Audience in russias capital, moscow, public feldman. How is an independent rushing forward policy analyst . And it being the city of boss, patrick theory, is a defense and security analyst, the senior electra at the university of boss and a former british army office. A welcome old to inside story and the like. Let me begin as is appropriate in this discussion with you and i want to just remind you of pipe franciss comments in that interview with switched television and on saturday he urged the parties to negotiate and to do so quote before things get worse. And he said the ukraine should have the courage to raise the white flag your response to that. Oh its, its of course inappropriate. So for uh, for poke to say that ukraine has to have garbage to raise the white flag because it was red in ukraine as the, as a coal for computer nation and for surrender. And its indeed very, very strange to hear these words from, from the pull from the chief of the church who is actually has to have just a very clear vision. What is good and what is evil when . When a country like russia enters ukraine and, and bombards every day, cdns, keats and women, and elderly, and residential houses. And believe me, i know what im saying because ive just returned from here. So on which has a seat on the front line, i go to the front line every every months and several, 10 times per month, i see the, the suffering of the ukrainians. Ukrainians want peace. Of course they want these much more than that. Anybody else in the world, the but they want just peace, they want not occupation. Then they want to not frustrate occupation, not Russian Forces who just put the people in the, in the and in the, in the, in, in prison and torturing them. What is happening right now on the opposite by churches, and i do think that people like full premises have to be aware of that as well. The comments nevertheless, will be received in moscow 5, also going to have the kremlin, giving them the thumbs up to tier, offering to mediate talks, the global south. These in favor of it into the wall. Theyve seen their economies effective global Food Security in jeopardy. But in terms of where president putin stands on this, he may want to talk, but theres no sign whatsoever of him being willing to give any ground the tool, let alone try to find some middle ground and talks the most for from the beginning of this more more or less from agrees to march 22 of the russian grammar nutrition position was basically the us kind of in a ceasefire. Was very much possible present the book and mention recent, we had again that there was a tentative agreement to achieve that in march 22 talks and is found a new stumble between the direction of the premiums and that would be a basis because it being based. Ready for more permanent ceasefire optometry, based on the more or less line of control as it is or as it was then or as a base right now. So thats want to rush you would want. And the yes also of course of pleasures of ukraine decreasing. Its roundtree, the appraising out the average i made so that that would be sufficient to kind of call it a ceasefire for the time be. And so, so known as the so called a korea, uh, uh, uh, brand like in uh, in korea to have a ceasefire based of the wireless control more or less like that. So yes, thats something that russia would want you pre refuses to accept believing that this could be only a temporary solution, like the end of the april if you rush up, cause for repairing its forces for maybe another. A lot of attacks us here at the coming up, but of course the ceasefire as we said rush. So theres the same kind of who do i mean, who . Sure, but nobody saw it on a crooked piece is better than a good fight. So yes, there has its merits. Do kind of cool at the data right now. Then continue this page back though. Thats right now seems to be going nowhere was probably worth remembering before. I bring in patrick theory that, that line of control in terms of a crooked face that you describe, involves you credit and giving up silver and territory. Territory that was in nobodys doubt, was ukraines before 2014 patrick berry. Before we talk more about the substance of the war and the pros and cons of fighting on, bring us up to date, give us a sense. I know its a big question, but give us a sense of whether were actually stands. Ukraine has lost some ground recently. There are signs of rush or advancing in some areas. The Tipping Point seems to be ukraines di shorty, to munition and longer range missile weapons. Right. Yeah, thats correct. Uh, i think you know, to, to close the landscape brush as well in the winter. Im a g, you know, i was a good way to start thinking, oh, i havent had an operational level breakthrough. Its not really have its being fighting recently and its hard to achieve the breakthrough by far in the, in the secret because theres so much survey that has been drones and satellites except for the size of the defensive. How far is it to send them . Its hard to break through, but in the, within the power line, the initiative that momentum is with most at the moment as being this time, like the western aid coming in, it should have started coming in in september or october, you know, on, on, russian essentially put its economy on 75 percent when it started to churn, id stop and have some energy equipment, then get some uh, get into that room minute tired. Hes also learning and starting to learn it. Mitchell was there in, in the early stages of the war. And so thats now its, are you planning to are under pressure, but it hasnt broken yet. And the question is, can the russian was mass and brain tree somewhere in the coming months or not, but they are putting them under pressure on the plus side for the finance they basically destroyed or damage them out of the blacks. The police force that combined or to be relieved, and theyre getting the grain died from the front of the site, which is good. And theyve done that seem to push for the air defense assets and taken out a lot of russian fighters and other strategically valuable aircraft recently. And they may have lost some patriots on reading recently as a result of doing that. And they are highly valuable change. So the russians are getting into a better targeting um, loop in the word tightening that time. Uh, so its hanging in the balance. But the crucial thing is, is this a, you know, we asked me to, with the russians speed on march, the west, just not doing what its promised to do, and certainly not do it quickly enough. So the picture there. So the slow moving front lines, a grinding, a criminal rule out of out. So were going to have the attitude in moscow would be what sure to peace negotiations that but russia has more man, it has more weaponry, it has more time. And the ukraine is running out of all 3 out of bound. Right. Well, whats the issue is much bigger country and it has the much bigger population and the much bigger Defense Industry in her mouth, right . Mostly from the soviet union. And also of course, ukraine is under russian warm range of that pressure miss. I was, can fit any target in any parts or ukraine, ukraine, the come up page that deep into russia though they had been increasing their attacks using a mostly home, a drones attacking deeper into russia. Russia, there has an advantage though a rush of air force does not fly through over the front line. It doesnt attack in you create a saving you russians for air force as they didnt syria after a 2015 where they were highway fast. If thats not working, then you crate. Okay, thats the thats also a very serious problem. So book size of problems, the size of problems with the 2nd type b, thats why the, thats why theres a, uh, a stalemate because both sides have serious problems. Below do me, im going to ask you about additional problems that may exist within ukraine. That perhaps the pope speaking about them, opens the debate that people are thinking, but not necessarily saying i want to ask you about tensions within ukraine, within ukrainian society. Because ive been there and ive seen the vibrancy in the energy of life and the big cities in the falls on the cafe is of the pack for the people. And ive seen and heard the tensions exist between people who are willing to lay their lives down and go to the front lines of people who perhaps are less willing. Is there a creeping sense of pessimism now in ukraine that perhaps this war is not winnable . Well, of course tensions exist and they will always exist in the society which is in the war because on the one hand you have a big consolidation of this is to. But on the other hand, you definitely have the oldest cracks within the society that you just described because of everything depends on the level of, of personal investment in personal sacrifice. And of course, this is very different different because depending on the family, depending on the on, on ethics and that would take. But frankly speaking, i dont see that fatigue in the exhaustion that sometimes is like impose to a new crane for present in, in, in some foreign capital. So when people talking about this fatigue, i see the decisiveness of these great society. I see the, the readiness of the people who are not on the front line to contribute for their resources with their time, with their will, attaining work full for the victim. I personally just can testify that we are doing a lot of volunteer work to help the army as civilians and i dont have, i dont find any problems. When i, for example, try to get donations from, from the people. Now, coming back to these war question, we need to understand very, very clearly that russia can say, of course, that lets negotiate, lets have this glee of scenario, whatever else we need to understand that this is for a game from the russian side. This is. Ready these, this is oldest joe boyd to code these information because obviously the want partition of your credit and this is what they clearly said they, they want partition of you credit or the they want really to control your brain. So warranty, and they want to go farther. They want to have much bigger plans, and they clearly save these plans in india, propaganda about you wrote about other parts of the world, the more the supper and give the rest of the bar is dates. It is expending, it tries to expend constantly, militarily, and when it is not expending, it has a fear that it will collapse. This is what is driving for. Thats not not a question about this particular territory. This particular time we need to understand that this is this driving force in the russian expansion using that. So these boulders, the new board, theres to josh who wants to join that they will not be stable or i shall wants to go farther and farther again. Okay, well, well come to that question with pabo in just a moment. But as you said, staying with the war, what i really want to ask you is if you want confidence, the idea of negotiation sent in a, its easy to understand. Why can you draw a line from this point towards a point where you crane forces rushes capitulation on the battlefield . Can you see that happening . Well, its all depends, of course, on, on the willingness of, of the pregnant people, but also on the billing this. Oh, for all the partners of ukraine now we, we, we dont see that much engagement of the partners. You mentioned the, the american problems but, but then the same time we see the increasing like wake up in europe. I think with regard to the russian invasion, because europe also understands that russia presented, say, the immune and threats to good just that toward so for its own, for its own little force on unity. And we actually, we dont know what, what will happen, what will happen in the future, and what will happen in most cool, what will happen with the russian establishment. Everything is possible and i do think that at least the ukrainians, when they deny the russian efforts to just destroy ukrainian solar engine, Ukrainian Territorial integrity. That will be a huge blow for these imperium, this the ideas of russia. Because really, i mean, when were talking about problems of the opinion of going for offensive, its clear and your guest already also said that its clear the dresser has huge problems as well with this huge army. And it still has so much people on the ground. And frankly, speaking for the russian society, i just dont understand why its not happening. 14 is killing as many russian citizens as ukrainian citizens or even before. And that is true that that should be a huge moral program for the russian society. What it does, i mean, if youll forgive me, those are all the sounds as though a lot of what youre saying is hopeful, rather than necessarily pragmatic and realistic. Let me put the question to patrick theory. Do you see a line from this point towards russias capitulation on the battlefield, given the divisions among the nato allies, given the evident inability of president biden, to released the 60000000000 dollar a package this side of the lex . No, indeed, no guarantee. Itll happen often with either. I mean, its a situation. The site is the site its, its very difficult to see that i, the path to victory for ukraine would be got it all cda, coming in immediately and large random mobilization. Uh, you know, a lot of western support this year go on the defensive and. Busy and have another crack. 3 a larger, more, better plan, a longer trained crack against the russians in a certain sector next year. But what youre looking for from is an operational level breakthrough, which takes back to why we saw a chunk of that territory. And similar to maybe the, the 1st song ill talk to you about that. But the problem is much more difficult to do that, but that is probably realistically their best option. And thats something changes politically, im not sure which looks like its locked down. So its something that they have, they might have f sixteens flying by next year for instance. But you know, that still gives us the best part of 12 months of this grinding a traditional warfare that everybodys go to withstand. Yeah, 16 is on, you know, you need a whole system behind that in terms of how do you deploy them on the logistics and all that theyre not at that are certainly be useful asset. And well see how to do that. And, but the russians have good air plants as well. So, you know, its a way to see it. It will help. It will certainly give them airport. Right. Thats probably what youre waiting for. You to do it again bigger, longer trying. Hopefully theyre called liberty yet another quick tax is going to be center joe. Yeah. But how about uh, let me bring up that question that little do me a raised a moment ago. Its the question of appeasement. Its. It history is pretty instructed website on what happens when you with these and aggressive the idea of negotiations, the idea of giving into polluted. Does he want to go further . Does he want more . Does he want to expand his appetite for post soviet conquests . You know, well there are different voices coming out of moscow and different opinions may be, it would be you there. Many would like that to happen. But i dont see that there might very much, realistically because the a 2 year conference with you. Great. And theres no right now and media and to that inside has a serious gray. But the russian for, i think capabilities decreased for in the pence of action. It will pay 2 years and years after this conflict then, and then the kind of meaningful way for russia to be as ray d for offensive fashion. Then as it was on at the beginning of february 22. Right now of course its again march. That means its spring time coming, and therefore a couple of months its going to be no major offensive fashions are possible because theres going to be a see of there. Then comes the funding of the summer fighting season, extended summer fighting season, where both sides will try to knock a serious blow on each other, make possibly break through pressure with one to break through and then the one to break through. And then toward that most likely may happen or may not and will be another summer, or it may be another summer of in the size of blood the still made. But the water is not then think of then most likely and that, but after this next year it will be again above the cell. My most likely because for some kind of negotiation on the basic basis of state, this quote will become stronger and that so then this conflict toppled before i give the final word to the low to mid. Just just update this on the sense that the crime that has a pollutant has that sanctions of biking that he wants to be released from this i sedation in global affairs. How much of that plays into the idea that negotiations, quote, the official says that there were things ok, sanctions are not the word again, were a bad thing with rushes of the in the lots of things that are being done successfully. But there are serious and growing problems and also with defense production up to the to produce enough weapons. And thats where you weapons. So yes, uh pause is me that i think thats we understood and some kind of and for the, for this fighting ship come. Okay, hold on a minute. I want to put this to you among the popes, comments where the spacing about conflict in general, including israels war and gaza. He said negotiations on never a surrender. It is the coverage not to carry a country to suicide, which begs the question to you. How far is too far in defending you credit under these circumstances. You know, but let me re address the question. So if we are talking about think oceans, how is that different with what happened to in 2014, in 2015 when we had negotiations with 14 and when we had these agreements and then put, you violated this disagreements and accumulated his forces for suspend one further and let us, you know, come back to history. If you think about history, if you look at history, you know that every partition of ukraine leads to partition of poland, for example. And, and the Baltic States and russias father entry into the, into the european culture to this. So this what happened instead of just to ensure this was happened in the 20th century, even more so the partition of ukraine and the partition of poland and the 20th century link to partition of germany for example. So, and the question is ok, russia is very weak and it will not go forward. Well, lets look at the end of the 20th century. During the bolshevik time, russia was really we very weak of the missile, but the huge accumulated forces and just divided to europe into 2 parts after the 2nd world war. So i think the, the, the real question should be whether we are able to stop putting, who is a new 21st century fascism which is really changing the rules of the game around the world. And making a new board. Theres a new state really unprotected or we cant. We dont stop him now and therefore the world and thank you for a century will look very, very different compared to the previous because im going to cycle my guess. Now, the melancholy pablo sale going out and patrick, beauty, and thanks to you for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, delta 0 dot com. And for further discussion, go to our facebook page. Thats facebook dot com, forward slash a inside story. You can also join the conversation on x hadley as, as a inside story. For me, joe, now hold on the whole team here. Good bye for now, the 2 weeks ago the government of tried to now was to hike in the price of fuel, was made to it, declared an emergency in areas of food and nutrition. The United Nations mr. Chide is one of the worlds most insecure countries in terms of food supply, mainly due to the impact of climate change. The one foot program size, the food in these warehouses. It has 4017 percent of child support, the nation. Thats 2900000 people for depend on the toner supplies. Its for, for flushed out, especially now the ages is couple of to or know many drill whiners and so i just would switch to new extinction. Now the ami enjoys and community groups, the group, the back from the bring one, the one east investigates. A lot of the stories that we cover a variety complex. So its very important that we make them as understandable as we can to as many peoples as possible no matter how much they know about a given crises. So issue the smell of that is all over power. As long as you say, were correspondence, thats what we strive to do. Asking questions, were you ever warrens about the Health Effects of our no understanding the reality reporting from the action the hospital with fear this gentleman is just behind me. Hundreds of people have been and back to a to is an in depth coverage thailand states its future of fossil fuels, no renewable. Ill just use teams on the spring. You closer to the heart of the story. A week the look at the worlds top business stories. How much of those plans going to cost is the rebuilding going to cost and who pays from Global Markets and economies to construction and small businesses. We have just started seeing in say to come down and many costs wells to understand how it affects our daily lives. Just outline for us how big a problem is to go labeled food insecurity. Counting the cost on just the on top of the crate and how these are the top stories on elders era. The beginning and guides with 72. 00 palestinians have been killed and is rarely a tax. And the last 24 hours, at least 11 people were killed in residential buildings in the central city of dow paula, when they were hit by his riley strikes, the bodies had been taken to the hospital. Several people injured and others believe to be buried under the rumble in kansas city is rarely tanks of fight again on stopping civilians seeking food. At least 9 palestinians were killed in the attack, which took place at the quite round de balance and this