The places that are meant to be safe for not being spared. And then of course, all exits are, are, be cut off. Even this idea of a quarter door means nothing. When youre talking about 2000000 people, as you said, theres really no way beyond emptying out the entire territory that youre actually going to be able to save car. People seem to come to that point about emptying the entire territory in a minute about how im president because you specialize in us policy tools and at least how is it, how impressed it is it to have this kind of humanitarian situation and then not here a condemnation or a coal full measures which contravene international you know, to, to and from us officials from the us present. Im sure, i mean, weve seen a precedence of horrific sanctions on the people of iraq more recently on or on. Weve seen them on other countries around the world, so the idea of sanctioning a country thats certainly been in place in ways that have drastically effective civilian populations, you know, reduced access to health care and food and so forth. But i think this is, this is yet another kind of stepping up. This is a total blockade. Once again, the, all of the basics, right . This is not just simply some sanctions here in the arrow. Yes, absolutely. And so, so i think what were seeing now is rooted very much in addition renovation of palestinians, the idea that the entire population is somehow, you know, guilty of something and therefore, you know, theyre, theyre deserving. You mentioned the center of emptying and tiny this is that possible . Why briefly weve entered into a very unprecedented waters now. I mean were, were really looking at a situation that it hasnt occurred before. And so there is definitely fears. Right. Something could be on the order of what we saw going back to 1948 on the value of that. Again, thank you so much for coming in talking to us about this. We leave you with these pictures from costs. The, for us, a call was of interest to people around the world. This has been going on for a number of our reports to an International Perspective to try to explain to global audience. How does that impact feel like this is an important part of the world and how to do this . Very good. The bringing the news to the world from here, the, theres a story that is being told to europeans by europeans, about the necessity of these violent borders. Missed that some countries struggles because they will pull and others didnt because theyre a wealthy is a complete the i believe the path to building a Better Future is by asking that to question im telling you about as of right to and political unless i spend a lot of time thinking about technology and the role it plays in our social and political life of what happens when so much of our politics moves online . Im the 3 manny as a john list. I think we should question those we best for those. Who has the power to control the narrative and how do you images we can to inform our behavior and crises. Join us as we explore these issues together and talk to studio be on the screen. Such a pleasure to be with you today. Im carrying on our conversation and talking about the world, the state of the world, you know, when you think about all of the realignments that are happening in east africa, whether were talking about the revolution in sudan. Were talking about the conflict in ethiopia, whos the conflict in somalia. What do you think it tells us about where the world is right now . Well, whats really interesting is our generation from north africa and the middle east that grew up as far as the iris for the arb spring and then the officer mouth of the arb spring. One thing that it taught us and i think is a really salyers retail, is the falls promise of technology. There is this image, i will never forget from the protests in egypt, it was such an exciting time where somebody had graffiti on for sort of shop front doors, had refuted the logos of twitter, facebook. And i think google and that was a time when the promise of digital platforms, the promise of social media, was that it had single handedly over throwing the most entrenched, all sorry, its harry and regimes across the middle east of north africa. I still cant believe it happened for the 5 minutes, but it did so. But what then happened off the op spring . What was the sort of retrenchment or return to the status quo that became even more violent, even more authoritarian. Were kind of living with architecture of 2 point oh, but in not less than what these nearly does, not sort of the ccs and the, and the shuttle assets that, that the social media space is as dangerous as the street if not more dangerous. So it came to be policed as much as the street was produced, and that less than that understanding was catastrophic. Because what happens now is that you will you comp purchase in the street, but if you post anything on social media are in many countries across our world in north africa, the government has such a sophisticated understanding as much as just in case of surveillance mechanism. But you can be imprisoned for a tech talk video, which happens in each. Yeah, you can be sent down for, for facebook. Status is complaining about like the 2 streets. And so the, the, the tech space, the Digital Media space over the past 2 years. Because weve all been in our homes, it has, has gained so much more significance, but its still a place where the power jostled with the people when facilities our pollution happened. Social media had again had thought problems, right. And again, had that capacity to bring people together and to over throw this dictates, im going to proceed with that. So it is. And then the lesson was that very quickly. And when a counter who happened in the 2nd revolution took place, and this taking place at the moment and lots people out in the streets, protesting the new military junta, and sit on there. Its about access as being shut down. So i think so that was of the grid a month for Internet Access for good to 3 weeks off to the latest. Cool. And so the tech space now is a sort of, its like a tap. Sometimes it opens and it flows and you get this amazing momentum. Particular as ive seen in my home country, have sit down to get people out on the streets to get them to fight violently against, you know, another minute of dictatorship. But at the same time, i am seeing accounts of vigilante power imagery forces uninstall graham, poor from from the sidneys, but a treat government. And so im like, how is this, how is the space something that we can take advantage of when all the, all the powerful people are squatting, their, with their completely unfiltered propaganda. Everything is up for grabs. Theres lots of good that can be done with it. But lots of very powerful forces and very weak regulation. That means that its promise is very fragile. How do you think . Do you think of a Companies Get that . You know, i, i really dont know. Ill tell you why. And this is 1st that i think is kind of like a crucible, right . For a lot of these challenges. And one of the things that stands out from me with a few of you is a lot of the platforms didnt quote from quote, speak. If youre paying languages, yeah, onto moderation or whatever. And so 2019. Wow. Its fairly late in the game. And by this point, this culture of the, you know, disseminating hate speech, people squatting on, you know, powerful people passing on seeing 2 things, you know, seeing one thing, the English Version hosts and something completely different. And the non English Version of the post, its already become normalized, right . Yeah. And i just sometimes feel like they dont understand a the size in the scope of what theyve taken. Not because sued of these people are fighting for their freedom. They are using for their lives. Right. And so for you, for you, you being the tech company, giving this blue take is, you know, playing nice with power. Yeah. Put them, its endorsing normalizing, you know, giving, giving power to someone who is destroying them. Yeah. And sometimes i feel like that gap in understanding. Yeah. But it is the more harmful me then theyre willing to internalize mostly because when you break it down, if they were to, to Pay Attention to that gap care for me, it would cost them a lot of money. Exactly. It would cost them a lot of money to, to speak, you know, speak quote unquote, all of the fuel p as language is a 110000000. 00 people. But how much do you think that there is an incentive notes to understand . Right . I think that i think thats changing. I think for a long time there was an incentive because the idea was, who do we assume the tech user is . Yeah, theres an English Speaking upper middle class white man who has an ability to interface with power. Right. Right. When someone, uh when its a pipe burst down history and he can e mail, his counsel and the counsel probably something about it. So i dont have to. Yeah. As you know, facebook, twitter or whatever. I dont have to do anything for this guy because someone else will hear. Whereas for the average african asian, latin american internet use, it doesnt have that experience with power. You know, when this pipe burst from the street, it stays. Yeah. First, until someone decides to fix it. And so i feel like its changing now the calculus is changing. Is it too late . Yeah, were trying to, you know, shut the stable doors after the horses bolted because the kind of violence that weve seen that can be connected directly to the lack of investment. Yeah. In understanding these markets its just tremendous. You know me in my yeah, if you yeah. You know, right now in the Central African republic, and this is one country that always stays with me because its a country that no one really pays attention to. Yeah. Theyve been at for, for the better part of the last 15 years and their misinformation campaigns being driven by western eastern governments. And it doesnt crack, you know, the surface of the new cycle. It doesnt become a thing that is a red flag that we should be paying attention to. And i look at that, and i think how the lessons been learned. Yeah, i dont know. Cuz i think sometimes we tend to talk about social media. Is this separate plane that has its own rules and has its own referees . But i think its it also into plays quite in quite complex way with actual media and tries to get actual media to pick it up and, and become viral. Yeah, theres like lots of my reality chasing, going on. So how much do you think kind of storytelling aspect also plays into the ways in which tech platforms have become motivated in, in, in different ways. When traditional media retreats, lack of funding, lack of finances, advertising crisis, whatever social media starts to take up a little bit of that space. And so there is a reinforcing cycle. There is the things that do rise to the top things that are the most viral that the enemies being discussed. Someones going to pick it up here and is going to put it on the 10 oclock news. Going to put her in the 7 oclock news going to put on the radio. And so even people who are not on social media will find themselves discussing that story. Exactly. There is also though, that the rules are slightly different and who gets to decide whats the thing that rises to the top . Right. And this is one of the things that a lot of companies and lot of governments, theyve started to figure out they can. Yeah, gain the system. I can buy the hash tag. Yeah, i can buy you and put a couple of bots instead again and go back to the Central African republic. Even facebook itself, conceited the bead phone networks of what they call coordinated, inoffensive behavior by foreign governments to influence what goes viral. And so there is this thing where the, there is an increasing awareness, i think with the social Media Companies that theyre kind of playing the media space. But i feel like theres still this lack of accountability, i guess. Yeah. If you feel it feels very wild west at the moment because most worrying, particularly in the context of the pond demick, this is how we can see more media, how we interact each other has become about little sashes, little parcels, information, Little Things that you can pop you wanna be like yeah, like a like a pill or a sweet or a snack, and this is not some moral panic about how weve lost our items, which we have done. Sure. I think the way that things are par sold now means that we, we experience the world or we consume the world and bite sized chunks, no pun intended. So like we always stay in gear one, which means and the comments about and the kind of depends on it, but it was impossible to get people to Pay Attention to anything apart from the most basic box about why things were going wrong. If you want to talk about a, a cobit 19 vaccines to the south. Oh, yeah, it is one viral story about 10000 vaccines destroyed because they had expired because there was no Storage Facility and some part of africa. And that will be the story. And it will be clipped, and it will become viral. And then there is no way to get beyond that. That story. And so i think that the, the danger apart from the misinformation aspect of it, i think im actually, i think im less bothered about the information aspect of it. But i am about the, the sort of the short attempt to short the short story of a short headline aspect of it. Um, because of then designs our brains are, prepares us to think about the world in ways that are inc, reticent, incredibly simplistic, very typical, appreciate not complex. And so this is what im struggling with now is like how do you get people to Pay Attention for a 2nd longer for a couple of seconds longer, like ive probably already lost half of yours, right . Yeah, i mean, so like this is, this is what im preoccupied, but at the moment is that a social media problem . Is that a media problem . Yeah, because i feel like the mean if occasion of the news, in some ways its like a mutually reinforcing thing thats happened between social media in traditional media. Because a lot of the headlines are games you play into that cycle. Yeah. Play into that short attention span. I mean, the, the, the whole, you know, sensationalist spin with the commercialization, especially in the United States and yeah, unfortunately they should have been use, you know, when use. Yeah. Its like, its like its like turning into a movie. I literally, i will see this, anybody makes use boring again. Yeah. Make it boring again so that we can, you know, its something that we have to sit through because its good for us. But, but its something that we process and theres something thats happened to the stories that we have telling ourselves. And to the way in which stories are presented, i think, is making it difficult for people to hold complexities. Yeah, i just going to interrogate, you know, my, the limits of my engagement with the world as reflections of the limits of how information is presented to me. And i think that we, we are in a place where we, the onus is on us actually just to work a little bit harder. No, no, no way that sort of preachy or where the are going off the grid or whatever. Because just to kind of have your skepticism filter on all the time. Yeah. I oh this, this seems a bit too too, too. And if the, if you need to viral phrase a cop to capture all that there is about the story. Yeah. We are going to go into questions now. Okay. Hi, my name is miss china. So fake news and misinformation have become a weapon for many of those who want to peddle toxic mets and devices narrative. But what can be the weapon for those who want to counter challenge these devices . Narratives . Lets read so, so this is, this is a question. While i get off the lots, actually the answer is very simple. It is that we can just risk use to treat these stories. Are these accounts as fact . I think like the thing ive just played with people to do all the time is to step back and question sources that you have no reason to question because theyre like respectable newspapers. Theyre on the newsstands. You just see what they know, what theyre doing. That is not a safe assumption. When you are asked to comment when you are asked to consume, when youre asked to engage with these stories, do not say this is fake news just be like, i havent seen the story anywhere else. So can we just talk to, ill need to go and look at my yeah, my sources about that is a very small thing that we can all do and together when you put it all together, when people do this and you multiply it, its actually incredibly powerful grievance and we have another question. Hi everybody. What i really want to ask is, are these digital platforms kind of inherently divisive, or is there a way that we can use these platforms to fights and itd be a and fight for phobia and possibly work towards a new kind of parent african is using is a digital tools, this is all you know, this is a really interesting question. I think like you said at the top, when youre talking about the r b, i think there was a moment, especially when nobody was paying attention to how africans were using social media. There was a moment that they had tremendous power because they were intensifying this momentum that was present when its generational shift, their young people who want there to be this new pan african is im and want there to be this new conversation about what it means to belong yeah, to be part of this great community. Yeah. But i want people to be cautious. Yeah. I want people to be attentive to the commercial interests that shape these platforms. They are not built to advance african democracy. Yeah. Theyre not built to advance pen african as, and theyre not built to advance political freedom. Theyre built to make money. And where there is a clash between financial interests and the political interests. What weve seen has been that the financial interest sort of runs away before the political interest has a chance to put on his shoes. And so do believe that there is some potential for tech because again, this other thing that people need to remember is that social media is not the internet. Yeah, you know, they do not tech. The internet is also, you know, community forums. The internet is also the service, the internet is also, you know, people are organizing on. So you know, a telegram and signal to have, you know, community defense. And so use it with caution. Yeah. Tap into the potential. Be careful about being overly reliant on the potential. Thats where i would land on that. We have a next question. The industry. My question is that the personal experience is often hard to get a visa to access to many countries in the corner. We, once we corner we best friends, how should we be with the batch of discrimination mediation, these hot iron boards, or as intuitive as our students, even though their accounts. Thank you so much. You know what i its something that just brings up, i guess, have like this visceral reaction. You know, when you think about all of the humiliations that youve navigated them, but youve witnessed, people navigate um, just a very quick anecdote. I was recently at the airport in may, ruby actually and this smalley family was going to immigrate was going through. What did this things thats happened is that european governments have kind of outsource the immigration function to airport officials in global south country. So your, your 1st round of immigration questions is the, you know, airline ticketing agent. Its the person who checks you again before you board the plane. And this for man had, he had 6 kids. He had hearing aid and he had and his wife was in a wheelchair and he was trying to get in front of the line and the way in which the euro came, passengers yelled at him for a quote and quote, cutting the line, the men, the reaction of the gates staff to side with the european passengers. And i find myself in that position being a person who doesnt like to speak when shes at the airport, doesnt i just kind of want to put on my headphones, get on the plane and sleep it off to be in a position where you have to intervene oh, this is a decision that a lot of us have to make a lot of the times when were at the airport, when were at the border, when were at the embassy, it might be, you know, you might be the person whos being humiliated and i think especially when you speak to nor the 2 people from the global north, they think that its just paperwork. They think that the problem, the thing were complaining about. Yeah. Is that we have to fill in for and they think its a privilege appropriate. Its a privilege problem, right . And its not the paper work, its the fact that the paperwork is designed to humiliate. Yeah, its the fact that the paper work is asking you questions, but you would never have to answer if you had a different, you know, passport if you had, if you were different rates. Right. So its what is your grandfathers surname . Yeah, it is. How much money have you had in the back for the last 2 years . It is, you know, have you lived in the last 10 years . What have you been . Because youve couldnt have possibly been to more than 2 countries and its that humiliation. But its so difficult to navigate, but its so difficult to fight back against it because a lot of us are scared to me in that moment. Because what if i speak up and they dont let me in . What if i Say Something . Because my governments not going to help me now the real reality of the world we live in right now, is that the border . Yeah, is the sight of some of the most casual and bureaucratized violence that is being seen anywhere in the anywhere in the world right now. The things that people enjoy when theyre crossing International Frontiers is, as weve normalized tests and weve normalized simulation, weve normalized, you know, i mean, but the, some of the interrogations that ive endured. Just for showing up the black. I couldnt it just, you guess to get a visceral, actually into it. Its like it takes him back to a very dark place. But i do think, i think that on a broader scale, we have to start speaking back. Yeah. You know, theres an injustice here that we need to, to address. Why does an Embassy Official feel empowered to shout . I completely agree. We need to think more about talking about border is not assorted and of its abilities that we need to get better. And were all critize thing. We need to talk about borders as manifestations of violence, apartheid yes, between you and what naturally comes from that is when you realize that you have won the lottery basically, then you are more inclined to share because you realize that its not your doing that its luck and happenstance, and that means that is your duty to help others who just fell on the wrong side of that, that divide. Its a wonderful conversation we put in the waterfall. Im so happy. And the guy whos the viewers enjoy that im really grateful to the, to the questionnaire. Yeah. And, and hopefully in other 2 years, some of these things would have taken and something will have changed. Associate of some 1st long, especially the talking you come into my house, deal my objects and then you know, if he is late to tell me, i cant give this back to you because he might not be able to the fact its outrage. And he said, my name is so, so from the Spanish Academy and i said, whats this kind of frank . And then he said, you have won the nobel prize in literature. What about the communities from which these objects were taken from, you know, we have, is there anything in the media about these people . What we know is how us museum the a general election on the referendum on the same day, people in poland to fold on october 15th and make that choice on integration. Im National Security conform. Are you a p and consul preston, donald totes, kind of enough boats to mount a challenge, watched the pole in the election. On alexs era, on the team we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world. So no matter why you call out you 0 will bring you the news and current affairs. The houses in here the the alarm serve. Any aides good to have you with us. This is the news. Our life from the coming up in the program today is really arrow strikes. 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