A russian missile. Hes a cafe and shelf in a village in the concave region. Same as robert has moved from east to new crime. Ukrainian officials are calling it an act of terror, an evil act by the enemy, against a civilian population in what is now being seen as one of the worst attacks. One of the were single attack so far in this war, dozens of people were killed. Several wounded when and its going to a russian guided missile, hit the village of a good rosa. Now this village is home to only about 300 people. And the government in chief says, a 6 of the population of that village was killed in this strike. Syrian officials say, i see people have been killed in a drawing attack in a minute. 3 Graduation Ceremony more than 240. 00 people were also injured sharply to that attack and Government Forces launched as strikes and revelled how the areas in easily provence, several villages were targeted and at least 10 people have been killed. Taikisha strikes of targeted areas control by Syrian Kurdish forces and has a cap provence. Age people were reported to have been killed. The tech here use the Syrian Democratic forces as an offshoot since a curtis done work is potty or p k. K. The group kind responsibility for bomb attack last week, he was president or biden, has approved the construction of a new section of portable in southern texas announcement comes a secretary of state, asked me blinking visits and mexico. All right, those are the headlines. Im emily. And when we can stay to now, the studio be, im scripted, thats up next 50 years ago on october. The 6th, when muslims were observing remedies and jews with celebrating yom kippur. Egypt and syria launched a surprise war against the powder. It is ro permit itself to get into this situation of disaster. In the 1st of a 3 part series, elgins era explores what really happened during the 1st week of the war in october. The are highly corporate tips patients. And if you going to be a corporate of species, you calling to be picking each other up in stress each other on the side. Youre gonna figure out other ways of working out. You know how were going to cooperate it in what way my name is will store. Im a journalist and also in my latest book, despite this game, i examine how the human does offer recognition has help shape our existence. And what happens when stakes his games. Theyre terribly wrong when we are thinking about comparing Human Behavior to what we see and of the species where we find the most profound similarities is not actually in our classes living relatives nicolo re, honey. Im an evolutionary biologist, and also im fascinated by what we humans have in common with other species. And what it is that sets us apart the thing is that correct . So youve told a bit about people. He, for example, become neo nazis, or are they doing coats . What is it about these people that makes them start to believe crazy things . Well, i think thats a brute, honest as i is that the brand isnt particularly interested in the true. So you start to be interested in the accuracy in how the world works, right . Whats nice, who do i have to be . What do i have to believe to whom do i have to become to corporate with these people . Again, states as you know, within the, in the heritage side, rock by the idea of the brightness, the here i make the next week or psychologically healthy brain. Im just telling a story, you know, a story about how we write about the things we believe. This is so is and, and we tend to believe facts, any of the comments that flat to that kind of hero here of making narrative. And at any facts we come across in the world that contradicts it. And the brain is very good at. Right. You know, deflecting it and finding ways to kind of onto mine it. Yeah. So, so yeah, that i on i think thats kind of kind of kind of coming into one of us and, and even really, really smart people. I mean, shes so in, in, in the air at 6 i spend some time with david irving who was, you know, ones seen is uh, you know, on test the historian of the 2nd world war. And you know, started to believe that hitler was, in his words, a friend of the jews. Im so sorry, you know, this, the, the, these are, these kind of problems can impact the very smallest kind of people among us. But you know, the other side is that people do become kind of mentally unwell, paranoid, and i was wondering if you could speak to kind of how power no, i kind of impacts people and kind of builds that kind of conspiratorial thinking. Yeah. Say, well power in order is basically the belief that something bad will happen and somebody else intends for it to happen. So we know that people who are more paranoid, more likely to endorse conspiracy theories, specifically ones that are about them, that pertain to something thats going to happen to me, not just to society. And it can be really pervasive. Its really quite common in the general population. Is no power, no air and conspiracy thinking not just things that people who have a Mental Health disorder which would experience, but in fact, all of us can be paranoid, scala. You know, i dont know, there is a normal part of the functioning human psychology, like se, but interesting to me. So in a way that when youre speaking to people who may be, have a slightly conspiratorial mindset. Do you find it difficult to gain access to your, to people or to speak to them in, in ways where they will talk to you freely about that belief . So is that as well . The have to be a bit county as a, as a, as a journalist and certainly when i was reporting on with day for the thing that was actually quite uncomfortable. So so, so david, the thing was, im putting on these kind of trips to all the costs sites in, in, in eastern europe. So i went along there and kind of had to basically pretend that i was a, especially in the notes. So as i was with all these people who you know, um, who has the course to know as we were in a concentration camp for one points and they were kind of questioning, why is that, that, why is that there . And it was it. So it was extremely uncomfortable that, so from the way in, with people who have kind of, for a conspiratorial reminded that you have to kind of blend into them and kind of, you know, allow them to, you know, believe that you kind of understand, you know, where theyre coming from for me anyway. I think thats a much better way of understanding him than the 1st adversarial model of what you will just attacking people shouting out because they kind of back away. Did you find in the, in that you were starting to find points of Common Ground or did they still remain quite aliens . You even the, i mean its difficult, isnt it, that you were interacting with people on a personal level . No points of Common Ground but, but certainly the empathy, the thing that i saw was extraordinary on that trip was the number of the men on that trip, whose parents had fords was 5. Is that force in the 2nd most well with announces and it was on, on the final evening of the trip. There was a, a viewing of the film down full, which is a hyper realistic movie about the last days. And they hit this bunker into the bowl. And there was a guy that who was australian german who didnt want to watch the movie. Because his father was in the bunker was hitler. And he found it too upsetting to watch. And suddenly you understand that these are people who love the moms and dads and the moms, and thats what announces. And so its so theyre kind of a lifes work. Or my son has been to deny the story of reality. Which is the holocaust happened to the nazi district with woolfolk, so that was a real live old by mint, from the and if theres a, there was a points of committing stressed in the, in the, in that sense. Yeah, no, certainly a government to kind of im just understanding. Glad to hear. Yeah. Like seeing people as, as, as people and yeah, just the police. Yeah. The and then i guess another question that i, that i have about that is the extent to which theres, theres a conspiratorial narrative. So those tendencies to adult, those so radical world views are linked to status. How can we understand that it is in terms of losses in gains in status . Well, i mean is says, because actually, because it is the groups of state dis, games in the states again, right . That the antivirus movements and 90 beautiful manufacturer this in this particular interview, a sheet she, she, she came across the Facebook Group and announced itself is the vaccine hesitant and was immediately surrounded by people saying, oh, well, look at this and look at this and look at this and she felt what she did, she felt accepted. She, she was a young, im seems to be mother. She was 18 years old. She had my strong minded. We made an issue as surrounded by these. She wrote sounding strong minded women and she, she wanted to get their approval. So she started going out there and arguing with that, causing that, arguing with the adults. Of course, not getting a child backs nice if you took it shouldnt do that initially. So its, its an easy access, but even that helps you kind status and the more you can status, the more you want to go out there and, and, and practice the belief. And i think thats, that for me, thats what, thats the re dangerous mechanism in a lot of these groups. Yeah, and i think theres even a Research Showing that, for example, a conspiracy mindset, or a spouse in conspiracy theories for some people at least, is driven by a desire to be unique, a desire to show that you are an individual thing. Can you do you and research and all that kind of thing . Yeah, absolutely. But a bit increase also about cooperation within the group is a very powerful effect that we, we tend to, i believe the thing is that the high status people in all groups believe is that part of what you said as part of a corporation mechanism or is that more about status . No the so part of how we think the culture spreads and humans is because people are more likely to coffee high status individuals and you know, thinking back to the, the, the power, no air and conspiracy thing. Topics. We know that if you feel low spaces, for example, being either being low status in society or maybe being part of the marginalized Ethnic Minority Group or things like this can also be real triggers for people to experience. Look for neck levels of paranoid for but so when we think about how we see ourselves in some respects and so youve talked about in your book, for example, is sophie about the rise of individualism in particularly in, in the west. And the gnosticism that accompanies that, why does that come from . Where is that taking us . Yes. So, so theres lots of ideas that way, you know why weston is on average more individualistic than the people in our thoughts of the world. And you know, theres a, theres a fascinating theory or the geography of thoughts about how the physical landscape ends up impacting how we think can receive the world. And so is that what it is that one of the so the idea is there are about why western individual doesnt seem to begin an ancient greece. And the theory is that, that, that the, it was, the landscape was a place where group in depth is what really possible. Like if you go to china know, low hills. So im great for farming sites. Thats a big group. Corporate farming in depth is very nice increase. That wasnt possible because its most of the terrible for farming the so it isnt good enough and it was around it. I think a 1000 individual city states im close to sending to see rocky islands. So is it so in order to get along and get, hey, kind of have to be a bit more of a self stuff. So you have to be somebody that was the pizza, or, you know, attending a few only only of trees and youll gardens make oil. So it says select trace these kind of individualistic id and a self way in order to survive, to get them engaged. Youre gonna have to kind of push yourself kind of fluids and of course very, you know, fascinating. Maybe you know, you can reach me, see things like the gnosticism, messy, know, im nauseous as you kind of had enough with his image and you get, you know, great sports and competitions. You get the idea of self esteem. You get the idea of an education. So is it so, so, so yeah, you know, i is it kind of fascinating kind of theory, you know, hes not binary, but the weston emphasis on me, me, me, me, me comes from the physical landscape of a, of ancient greece. And i was wondering, so whether you felt, you know, kind of kind of this kind of individually of how that impacts corporation or corporate if nature in the west. Theres been a bunch of work done by people like jo, henrich and, and people that, that, that have actually seen individualism through a different lens in some ways, by looking at how you can understand individual lives in as being a reduction in the strengths of family ties so essentially youre, youre in that youll, youll focusing less on your immediate family, immediate friends, and you kind of broadening that Social Circle out and making your own links and your obligations and not actually so much with a not tight, smooth circle. But you feel emotional, impartial, and sense of obligation to pretty much everybody. Right. So i think this, this idea that individualism in some ways can help us to explain the rise of large scale corporation, our willingness to cooperate with strangers. That might also come, you know, with the, with the 5 products of being actually slightly less concerned with nepotism will help Single Family health and girlfriends and things like that. Do you relate to that sort of description . Yeah, i mean i, shes so rice about that, that the id here in, in the state of sky and the idea that actually, you know, west individually some is about corporate saying not with the media group with the media family, its kind of breaking those traditional ties and who do i need to go freight with, with, with, with people outside our group and see them know as members of groups as such. But as individuals is youll use those me cuz youre a positive and youre right. Right. Yeah. Oh yeah, yes, sophie was, was much more about how our kind of me focused west himself. Seems to have made us more perfectionistic. Right. And there was so large study which looked at levels, rates of perfectionism in the west, in canada, the us and the you guys missed the ninetys. And since, um, you know, sometimes to, and isnt, isnt the liberalism that kind of fight to reagan revolution, style points that was to increase competition wherever we could find that to get rid of the big states, to get rid of bank to, you know, to, to regulation um, get rid of it as many rules as possible and to make everybody more competitive and how the extraordinary kind of effect that had on but the sense of the west. And so we went from screw them out in the sixtys degree, just good in, in just twins. It is, its quite extraordinary how we changed when once the economy changed and how the rules of how we supposed to get to the one gets a heads kind of have to change. But that you know, that, that was just significant. Downsize to that, i think, and this rise in perfectionism is potentially particularly worrying because with profession isnt that comes to comes things like, you know, eating disorder, steroid abuse, and men self home and you know, suicidal thinking. Um, oh, i was wondering if you, you felt that, you know, with that with your kind of expertise in the amazing human heart corporation. How we could harness our kind of genius for cooperation in the future to kind of make the world a bit happier if it more successful. You know, on the one hand, our ability to widen our Social Circles and to cooperate at more global scales with other people is really and doubted. Lee, the reason that we managed to, you know, leave the environment some which humans evolved. And to eventually colonize the globe. And so, you know, cooperating outside of our immediate family is a major part of a human success story. But its also the reason that we are now massively is a populating globe. And that, you know, it would be using the natural resources. And so its hard to say actually, whether our tendency to scale up that corporation and our co for suitability is ultimately our, you know, is it our winning safe or power or is it our and doing . I dont know. Do you, what do you think . I think most often most is the that we are highly corporate if we tend to corporate mostly within our own groups. And i think thats perhaps the heart, the heart problems a crack for humans because we, because we are inevitably group ish, is very intuitive to us to corporate, local scales. And you know, you have with like, nepotism corruption, bribery, we didnt think of those necessarily as being corporation. But those are real examples of corporation. The high political, but generate society costs. And i think the big question for us is how we can corporate to generate Global Benefits and not just global costs. And with that, i think we should allow for some q and a from nutrients. My question, were spending time to make people go this of Conspiracy Theory specially with regard to exceed that they are not real. Im you. So how do you go about counseling those theory . That would be john age . That is a really important question actually. Essentially what youre talking about is changing peoples minds, and thats a really difficult thing to do. In particular, when people have have views that are quite entrenched and when repeating to them your own view can in some ways make their own view become more um, solidified. There is some what from baverly comics that suggests that one effective way to change peoples minds. For example, in the context of a Conspiracy Theory or piece or Something Like that, is rather than attempting to do on best people with reasons why theyre wrong, can be simply to ask them questions about why they believe the thing they do. And to some extent to undermine some peoples confidence and in the foundations upon which those beliefs can be built. Yeah, i think thats, thats it, right. I mean, i mean i, i think the, the other opportunity perhaps is the people are members of lots of different groups that once those different stages games at once. And i think one of the things we, we dont do enough of is looking at who has these beliefs. And what else do they believe if youre an american on dfacs a, theres a potentially high probability. If youre a patch, realty person, you love america. And so, you know, rather than trying to convince him of that, but this specific belief about and im at vaccines are wrong. You can tell the story potentially about how not taking the vaccine as an unpatriotic act. Because america and the economy is being kept behind your letting america down, bye, bye bye and find reason to be vaccinated. So thats just one example i think of, of where we can actually exploit the fact that people have a 10. So not really realize it, but they, they often lives by a number of contradicting kind of values and we can use that kind of a separate value set. Is that a story that might challenge the kind of embedded unhelpful beliefs . Hi, im the im the soul of just waiting to see so, but my question is, what players do cause very sick daily, how in the classroom they shouldnt, does each uh engage. Theres very small. So lessons. I mean, its an increasingly important part of education, isnt it . I mean, one before the internet, conspiracy theorists what tended to be existing, raw, the isolated sections of society and its much more feasible now for people to connect with people who share are considered a similar conspiracy mindset for them. And for that to give the mindset created and say, i think understanding that, that, that, that they think goes on and people do hold the different world views and how they come to hold those world views is, is a really important part of understanding how to navigate a, you know, the social media, well, what, what do you, what do you find . Well, i kind of very strongly believe that they should, we should broadly teach young people. This is the human mind, this how it works. And these are the things that they often gets wrong and in a conspiratorial belief in these very much of, you know, a predictable kind of facet of the stories heading brian and one at one aspect to the stores in brighton. Is it, its costly making these cause and effect connections . Awesome, where there shouldnt be cause and effect connections is these causes and effects everywhere. When i was doing my research with the harris 61 next button, psychosis gave me something of what happens when somebody becomes psychotic. You know, mentally ill and they said, you know, like, so you walking down the, the street and 3 right. Cause go past it once and let them i think i, that was 3. Cause discussed that im way more, you know, read on the past. I havent, and i werent read on depends on so you say, so the story setting, brian is kind of going haywire and connecting dots. They shouldnt be connected. And this is exactly what we see in conspiracy theories, sir. And so is it. So i, you know, i think its very important to teach young people some of this stuff and just to say, look, you know, your brain isnt this amazing reality reading machine. Its a story, etc. And sometimes i stories are going to be wrong. And heres how you can try and work out whether the story that your brain is getting a bit haywire. Hi, my name is becky. I want to know what you think about what coaches are good at cook collaboration. How can we, in schools, or you know, new lives, increase collaboration to teach us to be more collaborative with each other . So heres an example of to kind of contrasting cultures in the state to suspect to. So i can, i write it and states can 1st one is the, is the company and run, which is famously by the most corrupt companies that ever existed. So in, in rome they had, they had a culture, they had a significant, they run can young system. Whereby i think every year that they would see in a room and go through all of the people with that company and to find them. And so heres the top, i think it was 15 percent. Is the boston 50 percent. It needs the middle to 50 percent promoted middle scad pots and 5. And that is a terrible culture. You know, we will need stages. We will need to feel the values and if, and if we, if we have a culture in which site is very hard to come by, well start jealous a start, jealousy, defending it and stop. So, you know, stop being a top sick and im present to other people and defensive and so on. And b, as in the case of ever become corrupt because state is so hard to come by, but stop cutting, cold is the opposite of that is a global cheap fit all most cultural cross fit. Im not close with um actually, but across space famously, 2 things. One is kind of culture and people who got into a Group Prospect lives across it. And so it was incredibly successful. The difference for you guys across the street, and if theres no gym, it is a community, i mean, in not community state, this is freely given. Everyone is cheering you all and everyone is congratulating you. Theres no pressure for you to complete this one challenges. Everyones got to complete, its up to you, its about fits your kind of strength. So the best couch was one of which states does not have to come by. And its freely given by the people. How guys my name is brett and im from west london. And in regards to conspiracy theories, weve obviously seen the caps arrives in the us of asked collation where people done things to, to conspiracy theories. The islands seem for my lifetime. So my question to you is could kind of behavior and hop. And that was why i, for example, in the u. K. If know what was the difference between these 2 societies that makes it possible. Why dont they . When i interviewed richard this bit, who was one of the great adults of this idea, irving, you know, it wasnt individually the study of that. He said basically, and, you know, the engine, we get more and more individualistic as you go across kind of western europe. You know, u k is really individualistic and then americas really individualistic and then it gets more and more into individualistic and 74 into the Pacific Ocean is way waiting, press it. And i think thats why sometimes in the year we look a site is going to america like that kind of crazy and often the craziness. But what were seeing is craigslist is, is a really individualistic. And i think thats certainly true in the us. And the, and the, and that creates some of that kind of move while the behavior is. But of course, that, you know, equally is tribal, you know, easy is about, you know, that all of that stuff is that, that conspiratorial thinking, the q and on people, you know, thats a try, but its a state escape, and this stuff is universal. You know, we, you know, we will kind of thing id like to, to, to, to it, to a certain degree. And so that, thats certainly no reason to why we couldnt at some point, you know, things hurry on getting was, lets see, stuff like that happening in the u. K. He says gleefully, well, ive absolutely loved talking to you today. I loved reading the social instinct and its been such an honor to kind of finally meet you and get to kind of grill you on the stuff i thought most fascinating in that book. And i guess, you know, one of the takeaways ive got from our conversations days that we really do have a genius, the corporation as, as the, as a human animal. And if we can, you know, if we, if we can kind of harness that even more then theres no reason why the future shouldnt be bright for us be, shes, yeah, likewise, i read are massively enjoyed reading the state scale. And its been great to chat about that in detail today and to think about the ways that this concern for all those 3 kinds of states is that you took that in the book. Just pen me every aspect of our lives, the, the beginning of the time that makes to post. Gosh, i had some be like, why is nasa being wiped out . Like why are tens of thousands of people dying in western europe with most sophisticated Public Health care systems . I just have always found borders to be completely violent things. Nobody leaves homeless homeless, the mouth of the chart. People dont just flee unless theres something really difficult. When i see culture as really driven a part rent asunder by these arguments about slavery, imperialism, colonialism. Im like, there is an easier way the the system youve been coming to add any international and corruption excellence award. Nominates your hero now. A see some lower. Yeah. When i get in the rainy snow tends to be my foreclosure with 15 last guys finish, last humble and generous on life. Jenny, i believe i have 2 people and i can be the only person beneficial for the good. That happens to me. A limited middle winning bucksta, joshua blue. I cheat on the importance of faith and shame. Success, i believe in the time i think given and i have to use a Generation School on tuesday that we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world. So no matter when you call home, we open, you can use and car into trash that match it to you. The a hello, im emily. Angry and these are the top stories on the images era. At least 52 people have been killed in ukraine. And one of the worst attacks since the beginning of the war president , the letting me zalinski said a russian, me so hit a cafe and shop in a village in the khaki region. And remember from the service side we came here when we heard the explosion and then loading what happened. And also my mother was here. So in the village this is a small village