International reactions. One of the governments most senior ministers, shes previously been criticized at home for saying that brittany was undergoing an invasion of migrant for latest remarks have been rejected by the United NationsAmnesty International and migrant rights groups. So why has she made them and does she have any support in britain and elsewhere . Will be putting these questions in more to our guest shortly. But 1st, this report for potomac, of some sharif on the background to brother, mans controversial speech regions. Home secretary has stopped a champion separately, controversial policies to stem my question. This time, sla government attacked the major pillar of postwar humanitarian, lo, lo, speaking to members of the same time in washington dc. This Legal Framework is worth it and the 1951 un referencing convention. It was created to help with sexual people fleeing persecution, following the horrors of world war 2 and the holocaust and was initially nice centered around europe. It was an incredible achievement of its age, but more than 70 years on we now live in a completely different time. So you could government has been trying to change its system full Asylum Seekers. Bus lines some to want to wait for the decision on the application to stay in the u. K. That scheme has been rude illegal by the u. K. Is coded for people who have the government a way to Supreme Court decision on whether its planned for attacking Small Group Crossings is lead to immigration is a Major Political issue for the conservative party thats fumbling in opinion polls. Head of a general election widely expected late next year. Asylum seekers are provided accommodation by the state and the conservative government has failed to pull. So promises to stem the numbers. Arriving from mainland yard or nearly 24000. 00 people have made the trip so found to see a adding to a rec club backlog in asylum plains. Brennaman has also described the restriction shed like to see. We will not be able to sustain asylum system, in effect simply being gay, or women or fearful of discrimination in your country of origin is sufficient to qualify for protection. The United Nations 1951 Refugee Convention provides the legal basis for the protection of for future use world wide. Its been brought to 5 by putting on about a 150 other countries. States that have signed up to the Convention Must protect civilians please conflict of persecution. Brooklyn themselves in the government headed by the you case 1st hand from minnesota. And shes descended from go and indians from motorists and kenya, she says multi culturalism in europe has failed. A multi culturalism makes note among those of the in come to integrate it has failed because it allow people to contrast society unless parallel lives in it from and spoke to using the so called token points into us that reflect american rights when consecutive sentiments to us migrants both the states in that country. Ive seen a dramatic rise and numbers of Asylum Seekers with tens of thousands crossing into the country from mexico. The state of texas has declared the state of emergency be the u. K. O, the u. S. Race, immigration, and multiculturalism, and now controversial issues as why when populism is on device. Let me close, im sure, leave for inside study. All right, lets go ahead and bring in our guests in london is steve, all the simmons is the director of refugee and migrant rights for Amnesty International u. K. And geneva is shelby, im on to global folks 1st and for the United NationsRefugee Agency. You and hcr and also in london is 10 bell professor of politics of Queen Mary University of london and author of the conservative party after briggs. Its a warm welcome to you all and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story chevy. Let me start with you today. Um so well the problem is taking a look at the 1951 Refugee Convention saying that the system essentially is no longer fit for purpose. Whats the response from the wind Refugee Agency as well the Refugee Convention, and its 1967 protocol, is one of the greatest human rights instruments to have been developed and implemented. It saved millions of lives around the world. Over the past. 70 is entered, embodies p age old, universal principles of asylum ser, its as critical now as it was when it was drunk didnt wonder, i mean needs to attend on the news to see the crises around the world that continues to force people to sleep at hearns and to see how those people have access to the safety and protection and, and before you look up, for instance, be the classes this year. And so then go and ukraine last year when millions of people have been driven from their homes. Its testament to the currency and the criticality of the convention of the International RefugeeLaw Framework shall be a when youre talking about the people all around the world who are so desperate, who are fleeing their homes, fling violence, i want to mention something i heard just a short while ago i spoke to a refugee whom i know and, and he was talking about this news about the remarks from ms. Robertson and he told me that this was really. Busy awful to see and really awful think here. Uh he said, um, you know, its not as though from his perspective but the countries that are signatories to the Refugee Convention. But many of them are even doing enough at this stage. How much concern is there if we start hearing this kind of rhetoric from other, from other political leaders in other countries around the world . A yeah. When also needs to just look at, look at the global picture. We have about 35000000 refugees in the world, and the over whelming majority of them 76 percent. What just assurance officially significant figure out of the cost of enlarge and middle income countries. And theyre often the neighboring countries because refugees that are essentially those that are driven from a home safe bet, just fleeing and such with safety and protection. And theyre trying to access that. So if we look at the global picture its, its really speaks to the need for more equitable responsibility sharing when it comes to hosting and protecting refugees. So its really important that all countries fulfill their obligations and abide by the international Legal Framework to protect for future use. So it is really important, but old countries abide by their obligations because we know if we look at the global situation, its 8. So the members of the countries that are often very challenged with resources, there are some numerous generous when it comes to hosting the right below all the majority, refugees, esteem from your perspective and from the perspective of your colleagues at Amnesty International, at a time when refugees and migrants continue to be demonized at a time when anti migration and anti refugee sentiment continues to grow around the world. And so many countries, how concerned are you when you hear this kind of rhetoric from ms. Bravo and a weird stream, the consent, the u. K. Has a powerful voice on the international stage, and its being grossly abused for domestic political reasons. Miss bravo puts not just the human rights commitments in the u. K. And the human rights of people in the u. K, including refugees of this country at stake. She quotes at stake, the human rights of people right across the world because of the country. As rich as possible, as stable is the u. K, will not a body to respect its International Human rights obligations. It is extremely difficult to expect and cold upon other nations elsewhere fall poor, far less stable to do so. And of course, amongst other things that can only create more reason for more people to need to flee seeking safety software, including because they called fine safety and other countries who refused to abide by the rules that the u. K. Seeks to flout this time. Steve, let me also ask you a follow up on Amnesty International issued a statement in response to ms. Brown from his comments that said what urgently needs to be address on the world stages. The glaring and a quality of country sharing responsibility for refugees. A matter in which the u. K is severely lagging. You mentioned the response in the u. K. In your previous answer. Just how bad is the situation there as well. The size of these, the u. K. Like significantly behind, even if your opinion neighbors in terms of the number of people it provides protection to all the number of people it receives. Ready protection and you are is not assigned around the world that receives the great number of refugees as you and how she all has just explained. It has long been the case of very long being the case that it is for poor a less stable countries. The role being doing the great majority of work in hosting the worlds refugee population. So its extremely concerning the u. K. You should see 2 question commitment to the Refugee Convention when its commitment compared to others, is already some pull tim these remarks from so a problem and from your point of view, why has she made them and, and what is it thats behind them as well . I think there are a couple of things. The 1st thing to say is that sort of robin is very much making a pitch for the support of the rights of the conservative policy for a potential leadership challenge off to the election. I, i think many people assume conservative elisa election and that will go into the shit contest. And she is to some extent, ok, now hotel, retrieve full doctors, the darling of the kind of populous rights of the policy. But its also, frankly, the parents of both to this on the consensus almost desperate to put back together the when in coalition, the voice johnson built in 2019 and that was spelled in paul on some pretty all sorts. Harry and i see in the gratian votes of this in the know for the visions of england. Im showing a problem when i looked at where she said that as well, same. Busy by token, talk for migration, and so i dont see it goes and we see this when we talk about stopping the boats as well. So they wont be able to pull back some of those viruses. So the time the election takes place in 2024, they will stand some johnson. What do you get a, tim, let me also ask you about the fact that its been reported that there are some, even within the conservative party, just felt that so while abroad berman went too far with these remarks. Um, do you think thats accurate . I mean, will she be facing backlash from within her own party . Yes, definitely. I mean, theyre awesome conservator. So i think you all displayed very specifically in the parliamentary policy. But they already, i think, quite worried about the populace to. So the policy has taken really since the breaks that referendum and some of the rhetoric on small bunch that weve heard from. So when a problem in our she said not to another company, this is already long done. I think i and if you put that together with some of those a rolling bottleneck 0 but versus theyre not has been giving us the last of that week. Also that doesnt mean that quite a little bit more if you like moses on centrist and piece, and the conservative policy are worried about the direction the policies taking. I also to be all this formally worried about the election impact to this because for every folks that these kind of red meat, in some ways of tracks, they would argue that it actually puts off a another bunch as a base, if you like, the liberal populism actually a nice and maybe conservative fantasia are worried about losing their seats. Uh because of that shelby a in these controversial remarks this while the problem and also said that the threshold had been lowered over time in terms of judging. Who meets the criteria defined in the 1951 you in Refugee Convention . What is the when i say to that . Well, the refugees, people that actually pull the lives of the strengths to their lives. But freedom, when were talking about the Refugee Status determination process, its an individualized crisis. So we have to look at the individual circumstances and the experiences and the trucks in the dangers, but people have a fearing. And thats whats really important. So its, its not very helpful to sort of have a sweeping categorization because it really depends on the individual experience and the circumstances. So when were looking at of the global picture and we see refugees that there are people that are fleeing conflict, really horrific Human Rights Violations, persecution based on their orientation. So on, on other identity factors, it could be a race or religion, uh, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. But we, weve seen, you know, the story is, i mean, experiences of people that have, have floods for their lives. Im playing really horrific of conflict and Human Rights Violations, or if the need is full and bull compassionate and human response to people whove been in that position because its not a voluntary choice. No one wants to be a refugee. No one wants to be exposed to such horrendous circumstances in their lives. So what we did is compassion. What we need is also really fair, expedient, unofficial asylum processes to quickly determine who is a native international protection, who is a refugee and who isnt. And to also been galvanized solutions. Steve miss bravo. And also claim that women and gave people must face more than discrimination if they are to qualify as a refugee. This is a statement that has been challenged by many refugee charities. What is amnesty is response to that statement. When i say shes being very miss representative of the convention itself, in her words, shes choosing to suggest, imply that day people, the women, refugees are somehow being advantaged in refugee determination processes. And in the convention itself, which is very fall from true discrimination is an important consideration, but it is persecution. That is the test that she must very well know whether that means that particularly holly threshold, well which by the way, the you tell you is on the last year pos most to raise coley in appropriately in terms of its own determination procedures. So shes targeting a minority of people who largely a disadvantage even in the whole Refugee Convention scheme, to penalize them as a way of tracking the convention. Its so i think the whole thing is actually shameful. Tim, it looked to me like you were reacting to some of what steve was saying there, please go ahead. Well, i mean, i think this is absolutely right when he says that this is really an attempt to resolve on the tray from a very low. Busy health assumption that the u. K would hold the convention, they would be seeking to make sure that other countries did as well. So as far as the kind of moral leadership, if you like the u. K, on this particular issue i think, to, to stomachs and sort of problem and as has damaged possibly cognitively. Of course, it is with remembering that this is a necessary, the government of the u. K. Will have next. Yeah, no longer. This is clearly a statement that would not have been made, had number 10 downing street so that she approved it. Its important to realize that this is not necessarily the case position Going Forward over the next few years. If we get a different results of the next election from last, i think we have a very different view on this from the u. K. Government, chevy and you, you mentioned earlier that there really is a need for a more humane system in order to deal with this all more effectively around the world. And i want to ask you about the fact that it seems no matter what Security Apparatus has been put in place, no matter what new agreements have been reached between countries to try to staunch the flow of refugees and migrants. Uh, at the end of the day, those numbers have not been decreasing correct as well. If we look at the global picture there, there is a correlation between increased displacement and then a situations of conflict or instability, or perpetuating continuous Human Rights Violations which force people to play. So whats really needed is to look at what we called the root causes that forced people to sleep at homes, they really need to be addressed if we want to get serious about addressing increasing displacement. Because this is really a result, a consequence of political decisions of political action. So that needs to be much more strengthened efforts to result complex and prevent new ones from occurring, but also to issue address. But we call mixed movements because we know that people on the move um, theyre often a, its a mix between a refugee so people who are playing conflict to persecution or Human Rights Violations, but also migrant. Some people who, who might choose to, to label or have to leave for a variety of other reasons. So its important to, to look at this from a very holistic approach and prevent the by addressing the root causes, but then also responding in a humane manner, which can include things from ensuring that we have enough capacity will strengthen capacities to rescue people in distress. And land or etc, weve gotten so many tragedies happening in various maritime movements across the world and not just on the mediterranean, but also if we look in asia and so on. So we have to really enhance the search and rescue capacities. We need to ensure that asylum systems are sufficiently results, so they are crucial in being able to determine who was in need of protection, and then finding Human Solutions for those who are not the time to be refugees. But that can also include over tends to him countries and safety and dignity, but then also strengthening inclusion in countries that all hosting refugees of the bulk of refugees. And many of those countries around the world and all hosting the majority of refugees require of support in the form of development assistance. So humanitarian in support. And that will also ensure that people who, who are flipped um for safety, can Access Services like education, health care, and be able to work and Access Protection in those hurst countries. And we also importantly need more responsibility sharing from the rest of the world. So that can take place in the form of ensuring more resettlement, to places for refugees or other forms of admissions. And again, ensuring that more Financial Results is channelled into the countries that are on the front lines. Um, so it requires a really holistic approach to look at the situation and really is stem of the issue of people being forced to sleep at homes. And the best place shall be. And weve spoken many times in the past, and youve advocated many times in the past 4 countries to be, you know, integrating those refugee communities more and more to be welcoming those migrant communities to be allowing them to work and, and participate more in society. But i want to ask you, what is the response when, when you and hcr is calling upon these countries to do that more and more, what are you hearing . And is there the political will to actually do this . Yeah, i mean its so important festival for refugees to be able to access text and protection. Then if we look at the global picture and the fact that there are a refugee so of crossing the borders and accessing safety, it is a mixed picture. We all think really some exemplary practices. Um we see that all around the world when it comes to inclusion. We do see there is a big strain and a lot of pressure on some of these. A refugee hurst countries, these low to middle income countries. And they are trying to do their best bet her sting awesome refugees, full for years out of time and, and what we call protracted refugee situation. So that there is a need to, to see support from the rest of the world. International community has recognized this in equity in the refugee response, because uh, either it came together, the Intentional Community came together and resumed the principles refugee protection. But also the need for most support for inclusion, but also to support other host country through humanitarian admissions, refugee resettlement, and so on. The truth of Global Compact time refugees, which basically is a framework for the refugee response. So we, we, we know this has been endorsed, but we would like would like to see more concrete commitments from the rest of the world in terms of knowing method, international responsibility, sherry tim brittons labor party, said miss bravo. And was trying to distract from her failures in getting to grips with the case migration crisis. They also accused her of using, gave people and women as scape godes. How much was the speech a product of politics, but also is the labor party taking a harder line towards migration now to as well as the, because it does have to be castle on this because its very clear when you look a poly u. K. Got people all worried about migration as far as seems to ease a little bit off the brakes, but they seems to be growing again. Paul, new songs to the circles from boats crisis and laboring calls, hes worried about the next selection possibility concert. This might, as i said before, use migration is a call to play in another direction. Having said that, the label faulty has a reputation as it needs a nationalist, faulty uh, it doesnt want to alienate any of a small progressive support just by taking to haul in line one question. Im some ways perhaps where the problem is, was wrong with making it more difficult for the learning policy might make it rather easy uh, in the sense that in as much as they all seen by some swing voters as quite extreme. It allows labor to actually to portray themselves as having kind of sensible, Pragmatic Solutions even though its quite concerned about the situation we spoke of quite as far as a consensus barry halls line. So i think labor are probably being quite careful how they play the site or will to be, say, nice quote unquote, a soft touch on migration. You know, the other hand, they want to ensure that, as far as you know, the cold and shes concerned that progressive bunch is, if you like, they all rather the 6th straight them is from steve miss robert and also called on World Leaders to make major changes to the you in Refugee Convention, obviously this is not something that she would be able to implement unilaterally. But do you think that we will start seeing and hearing more calls for that from other World Leaders . This is the sort of thing from time to time that some World Leaders, usually leaders of relatively rich stable countries who see relatively few refugees. Do say i called to see that being any progress in relation to that in fact, for the great simple reason as you and hcr of explained earlier in this discussion. The reality is that if we were to re envisage refugee protection in any way that could engage the entire and see if the international community, it would be obviously necessary to address the longstanding fact that it is poor, that stable countries who remain host to the boss to majority of the wealth refugees and all the richer countries are going to step up and truly share responsibility. All the disparity is likely to increase the need for some people to be moving ever further in search of safety. But is the she are saying that hes not being addressed, leaving aside other questions of who else may be forced to move in the future with new conflicts, fully addict i mention of climate change. But these are things that celebrate them. A has no interest in addressing. Shes things stories politics to be played in in the late d a, but the u. K. Can just the ult out to Bits International responsibilities. Clearly there was no possibility of International Agreement around that. All right, well we have run out of time, so were going to have to leave the conversation there. Thanks so much to all of our guest. Steve alda simmons shelby, im on to and tim bell. And thank you too for watching. You can see the program again any time by visiting our website. Ill just over. Com and for further discussion, go to our Facebook Page at facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside story. You can also join the conversation on x, formerly known as twitter. Handle is at asia inside storage. 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