Hello and welcome to the show. Im sammys a, them. Britains ministry of defense is saying its possible that crimes and may have decided to end funding the wide number scenary group. For years russia had denied the existence of the root level loan and the connections to it. But the organizations attempted much on moscow in june, shed some light on the relationship between the kremlin and wagner. You see, at the end of june, the russian president spoke about how wagner had received a 1000000000. 00 from the state. Now the position of that tree says the split between moscow and wagner is growing. So why would any move against the fighting forces . Finances, leave it. Why would it leave russias interests in hot spots worldwide . Will explore those questions with on, guessed in a moment, but 1st, this report from castillo has already on they were hired to help russia slightest war and ukraine. Now, the Wagner Mercenary group may be dealing with its own financial battle. Britons Defense Ministry says its possible. Moscow was no longer funding the private army, particularly after his leader took guinea precaution. Littlefield mutiny in june against russias military leadership, probing questions. Do you 40 of president prudent, who has come up without mos calls backing . The private military is likely looking to downsize and restructure its finances. Going to bill a roosters perhaps part of that plan. I cannot give you a clear answer about whether uh the future of wagner lives here or there. I will say this at present. Wagner is not fighting in ukraine elements the wagner have. In fact moved developers. Wagners set up a base and bella roof last month, reportedly hired to train local troops. Neighboring poland thinks its a ploy to the stabilize the region and spill into its territory. Its deployed thousands of troops through the border with more on the way it shouldnt be too good to be. We have to be ready for any scenario in the poland batteries board. And thats why we have decided to move the army closer to the boat to scare away the aggressor so that it doesnt, their attack opponent that i need to. African nations have long been a source of money for the wagner group. Many believe both russia and the private army will try to take advantage of the instability in the share following the recent crew. The group is most active and Central African republic, libya, molly and sudan, all of which have fragile relationships with the west is often provided Security Services and parent military assistance and instead of money, sometimes its been paid with access to gold mines. I did the good news as far as our collaboration with the wagner group, weve had talks with russian authorities and weve discussed the support weve been receiving for years. That support has enabled the Central African republic to make progress in terms of security. And it must continue. Thats all i can say about that. Political influence is perhaps another factor for years prudent has use of factor mercenaries to promote russias Foreign Policy abroad, seemingly denying direct involvement. Now, leaders in africa and elsewhere may be forced to choose between rushes leadership or the support of the veteran or group cod. See a little piece of the again for insight story the well lets bring our guests into the show. We have joining us from london. Patrick barry, a defense and Security Specialist at the university of bof in moscow. So gay ma call for a former public spokesman for president Vladimir Putin and director of the institute of Political Studies in moscow and bumming and stuff and wolf, professor at the university of birmingham and specialist on post conflict state building and was countries one welcome to old if i could stop and with patrick, so patrick, the British Ministry of defense says its possible the criminal is decided to when funding for the whitening group. How much actual evidence do we see of that . The yeah, its an interesting one and thanks for having us on the show at Defense Intelligence, which is a part of the Ministry Defense as it is realistically possible. So using their language basically that helps. And in the area by 40 to 50 percent. So they arent sure uh from, from using their sources. Well, what we have seen in terms of some of the contracts and other open source for boarding is progressive is by her group policy for the state is for being to shad supplying and in the earlier years uh with these catering business and also then increasing that business around bush and particular with carson, the ministry of defense to feed the ocean are im all we have seen since a more started was a lot of complaints on a lot of at this stage of the food from conscripts and such, turning off i complaining about the lack of food or the quantity of food that they were given. And immediately after the rebellion in june, excuse me, is we can call that potentially the day we started the reports that those administrators, Russian Ministry, defense coach, the taser in contrast to go. So. 6 you can see that in the day they gave him back and forth between the m o d and the back bedroom. But out the rebecca had asked me to push the precautions, business interest from the ministry to pass. So thats one example of the evidence that we have from open source. All right. Okay. So gay, is that the general picture that youre seeing . Does it look like the russian state is beginning to come back and, and its funding til bikes now. Uh i see because uh uh, back your uh group will be, uh, or grandma uh, you know, uh the free is, uh, uh, just a hallway. Its uh, as the best drive admitted to the group. Uh, in zillow. Everyone understands is that price will be professional. Uh to that same died uh and fargo waiting for them to rule uh is uh uh you couldnt even more. Is a bottle. Oh was a box smart uh theres no just uh, uh, to back back. Well, its not the important stuff is that it should address from the point of your channels, but im just very important set of changes there. Uh, in general try russell, not a need to try to repair. Uh, east defense line against the price. It gives you a chance, a check for you, could you maybe just process it or united states, a name and a box now uh, do these quotes. Yeah. Does that have somebody uh, canceling it important for us and we are going to know how is that youre getting it from going from you. So im kind of put a bed and uh, and hes gonna need to talk for a few days. So ive actually gone without, i need to tell some people to say uh, search. Uh uh, you know, people correspond to that. Uh the, uh, uh, 30 percent of them not getting those boxes. They asked for my home by the time of the special uh, troops to save their and also to use them as a ukraine. Yeah, i finish on those x rays. You can also create new people, homes, x, but impressive, romantic. And that is, you know, so to use them use their and the guns because talk about, thats good. But the point was, is do you see any train thats the kind of indication now that the russian state is ending, solve its contracts and funding to walk. Now to uh no, uh is it, uh, is this, uh, find the Financial Support decrease but not the ups store because it actually uh, going with now just to re, ive done the net 90 percent of that route and to provide a grade. And then from say im, i think well be using different kind of asian tops. Okay, well pick you up later on the point of reorganizing. But coming to stuff on is a clear, the kremlin has actually decided what to do with the wife now. And its lee the progression the, the reason i asked that is if you look at some incidents that have happened since june, at one point we saw a far as hes right, the home of the wife and a boss. And they seized a lot of money. But then they would tell them the money, a 111000000. 00 was told was a back and forth as well. I think its very hard to judge by the crime is actually decided what to do is model on zone me that would require a level of intelligence that certainly is not available on open sources. And i think what we need to bear in mind too, is that regarding the Business Plan that she has built over the years extends fall beyond box. And so this to you is the precaution potentially still has 4 or 414. So what was the bach nice sort of the Headline News if you will, and it has been for, for many months now. But at the same time, the globe is an extra cost. Actual companies Show Companies that precaution has. Ready over the years, so it is also very important for pointing in terms of dealing with the essential spreadsheet that has been imposed on. And so actually getting stuff in to rush on increasing the whole. So depends on the types of business and piles of people like big goals in house built. So even if we see if a basic kind, stephanie saying hes too valuable to completely eliminate. So again, i mean this is very hard to judge because its not entirely clear how much control the crumbling, what anybody cruise to the criminal could rust from big o in all of the brands office operations. Or i would certainly say that the very fact that because in still is a life and seems to have a certain degree of freedom of movement, would indicate that you still have significant going to the kremlin. That puts an, has decided the g is wrong, okay . Being wrong, all right, that we dont have any wall on the show who is very close to progression, but we do have. So a guy who was the public spokesperson, full, blinding me, posing and close to the kremlin. So maybe we can ask you from your perspective in your understanding so, okay, why hasnt the russian president published as he put it those responsible for treason was the the announce when he made 2 months slice out with see no sign of that is that because progression has proved to be too valuable because of the networks of commotion and trustees built up pretty close. Im not really blowing up. Uh, because uh, uh, as an admin mentioned this little box that plays really important through last year or so. But thats something that has to be punished then. Uh, because youre not guilty. Uh, ive seen kids was the fall, takes me, its uh, its in pretty good friends and i shouldnt defense ministers and the most. Com to both sides was a little bit guilty a little bit. Right. So is this the show . So it was not that bad to do the rest. And i thought it was the so good help us to understand who did Vladimir Putin name then when he said hes going to punish those who are freeze in this if he wasnt talking about wagner or per goshen to uh, you know, even out when i logged in to go back to that uh fi just moved to the most switch. Was it important to give strong spot with the call . Uh uh, you know, what . Sorry about this. Okay. And would you mean after each where uh, they could have it in uh, decides is that the uh that you just sent those that are going to be taken from pink or huh. And it will stay til 5 in uh you create a new bottle field about 10 percent, well say where is pretty good. And she is not the end district. And also she get the lawyer. Okay. Uh to uh, budget for the kitchen. And he did to uh, to set up to the concert. It is what is the assets . Well, uh well joseph does that. So uh no, said hes on. Uh tobias is there. Uh, what is it easy is forgive to be bought through you junior people are right, because its cool. A elizabeth kid. What is your face . The big wow. Is that not the right to right . That it so now is, is off the net which controlled by because a little bit under 10 percent rooms that produce. All right, lets bring patrick backend. So pantry, what we here from. So again, moscow is that progression isnt guilty of anything. And to the question of, do we see any sign in that in ending or coughing or downsizing the state funding . No. So gay says, how does that jell then a very different picture than what we being presented with in the west from western sources like the position of that tree of defense . How do we deal those 2 pictures together . A yeah, i think this 2 things going on. First of all is that you know, the, what we can all agree on here to serve. I mentioned it is fine or, and also you k Defense Intelligence are much more confident and not part of their assessments. They said it was like a so 55 to 75 percent the 5 years under going every organization restructuring. So the next to design is have 90. It is of the funding from the russian state is being color co completed. Theyre much less, as i mentioned, confidence enough mine we know, but is that the wagner, the russian im of the with priority not getting off. And so theres been a d coupling there. And 2nd, re, to the is to get to go to the wagner age of russia slash ukraine. So to be conflicts. And then ive done that and get them out of there. So some of them have gone up to uh, to better roads. Youre not sure exactly hammond and i tell you what im in fulton is state funding then to the wagner group. If this is really going on, if the inside. Yeah. Open Source Information that uses suggest that there at least downsizing some of the contracts with wagner group, is that the flooding survival of white glove state contracts. I think some of the m o d contracts were for large numbers and therefore quite important. But i think if you look at partner as a Global Enterprise and a lot of there, and again, this is, you know, i dont have x and sources into this or any special insight. But what we do now is a lot of the deals i caught with the regimes and supporting in africa involve either access to resources in return for providing that services or just cash deals. So thats what i wanted to support you, other machines, but also like further russian interests by providing protection for russian overseas assets like the g r u, for example, intelligence units, and work closely with that that we dont know the exact nature of that relationship. I dont know, i will be, you know, that will be something for the Intelligence Services on page. But we know what exist. Again, in open source, i wouldnt understand, i wouldnt be at this because we have much of a monetary value. They get from them. But the whole or i tied to elements and emissions day to, you know, i can understand its gonna be hard to put a number on this kind of question. But stefan, you did mention wagners network of commercial interests and assets around the world in africa. Mines resources, is that enough to keep the group afloat regardless of how its relationship with the russian state goes . And i would imagine so because its really well, therefore, the massive increase in its state funding or in some of the numbers that has been floating around and invest the media is that uh so uh, so the 1st 1215 months of to go in ukraine bos boston may have received all of a 1000000000. 00, whereas in payments uh from the Washington State budget. Uh, what was the model that false links to the massive increase in the tooth number so. So the requirements campaign that job bought the carry dog in a rush and prisons off the 10s of thousands of on the contractors that had been used. In other words, i mean all of that was way beyond walking to boston school. I mean, uh, so you mentioned, i mean the cross walk know radius of maybe up to 5000 veterans of Russian Special services. The 2 notes induce types of life wide role. Uh before the boy in ukraine, and i would imagine that they will continue to the wife quite role of works on those who listen to resolve is, is that they provide scenarios, african regimes, uh, the protections are what were seeing as much an interest sense on plus on sort of the close inter trending of this more cult pole information, but the commercial Interest Rate goes and i think thats the key piece of business implant as a whole. Its quite rather fluid painful for us to come. So you mentioned that in your reading of the situation, the russian state isnt decided to re organize. Wife knows. I think the words you chose that does that include looking for all the alternatives to wagner, all the avenues or tools to extend russian power and uh, just for a 2nd, cuz then uh uh, is this a private to uh use in general that minutes before i really go uh again, i got this as joseph, all successful and uh, i kind of just like the dish. Um, but uh uh was the solution. Uh is like i said, uh uh, private group should be use box was all sides and dishes by people like getting people. I dont see my letter that says that somebodys use this. I read it. I saw the best on how to do it. What say i and i was a new private groups. Reach the processor that we use by are some going to be on the more theyre not connect you to control what was the more i agree and that is possible. You so you, its the grossest new, private military groups. We dont know, this is not decided yet. What is decided as the source you prior to . I mean, its a good be stronger. It was in process of our mission as a, its still quite a bit say continue to do what kind of the things we will be uh, boxed us anytime you and you said something about the you groups have been north lake. Uh yes. Uh and i believe so so, so to exist to a border space, uh around most of its not actually a bunk bed uh to create something can your under such conditions . I seem to know what uh, what is the. 2 uh, come through the president was uh no zillow site here. So its me is that right now is approaching me. Thats the letters. You mentioned something about the 5 concerns about the 5 percent off. Ive gotta go back and ill be honest, like 90 percent big in the us. What to do was say it sounds like about 4 to 5 bucks a 1000 people as a extremely in progress. Oh is this what youre part of the little part as a how long sounds good to you fit. So carlos i should be around are, is a little bit get the old to get that was, uh, i just, oh, thats a big deal i did for uh, just uh, in as i did as soon as its still in progress. And we dont see any evidence of. A onshore because theres a 1000. Yeah. All right, time will tell, i guess if i can bring patrick back in. So what kind of old ton it is . Does the criminal in have in extending its power overseas right now . How important vital is wagner group. Now that is a fine thing for us. But also as stefan was explaining a, a nexus of commercial interests, a semi reading. This is, it doesnt potentially needs that menu. Or there are other options that are all smaller or less decimal now, little so less capable is the understand the designer in the same sort of network of Shell Companies . No, no. Ill head a full in getting and navigating best and sanctions no, they dont. If you look at whats happening and in my reading of this would be to, does that make me fire in a still very special . Yeah, friends of course, of course, because if the bottom are approved and then theyre too close. Yeah. Theyre dangerous. So wherever theyre, when theyre both their address packers interest and it was interesting, there was some states allowing, well they align if you put them in by the roots, a contingency of them there to try and the battery, some forces keep tabs on the shang code and also keep the polls worried that as a great use of 500 resorts is they align if you told, tell them to get to and just do that and start for menu, were burying down there to potentially open a 2nd from the more instability. And i forget they align if you do the same in the share. So that is, thats whats going on. You know, its where to their interest in line and where they still useful versus wherever they too dangerous to keep close. Thats whats going on. And therefore, i dont actually think theres a mile so as long as partner fail those and does missions of be enough for managing rebellion and siding with this military or talk was, you know, talk receives in these places and its a win win for me as well. Their lesson is just dont have them to post. So again, do you think the appetite is growing and some parts of the world full russian influence full wagon and places like nice. Yeah, weve heard, its been reported that this has qu latest have reached out to wagner. Or maybe in areas as patrick was suggesting, like so then uh, you know, uh everyone to know that the, uh, boxes do use the best uh, privacy and so security to compliment and so were good to go to us. And one of, or do you know about and know what you think you might be more of a matter of opinion . Might it not . So again, you might get a different reading if you speak to somebody that tree, unless it looks at some of the white men authoration in ukraine. Ah, you know, i say this to, its a little less, uh, some people can say, oh, theyre closed the generals. But oh, what was that, what, what it is that is that the practice on the excess minutes . Its all. And also it gives you the musical. All right, were going through in a minute, patrick. Well, thats so got to finish out the phone. Well come back to punch in a minute. Go, go ahead, finish up the thoughts. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Would you use a call if you need to . Not because were in just a more is likely to get off the truck. Uh, well do modules side share this as a box and it was outside of it, but it was, oh, uh, zill awesome. I see that there is a pillow top such as simple uh, printers. Not very good. All right, perfect. Go ahead. Do you want me to come in . I think you had a slightly different perspective on this. Is this . I dont agree the wagner are the are the best. Uh probably the amenities security going to be in the world . No. I think that means challenging to say they have proven themselves, especially in your brain at the rapid rate of growth and their ability to integrate Russian Ministry systems are given to them by the v. As for middle is the largest willing to take casualties. But if you are looking at private manager companies from the west, they would have, obviously, i would say, paying for pounds, especially the ones that are accrued from special courses. They are smaller, but they would have a higher skilled level of potentially lower profile. And certainly a lower a record of them, of human rights abuses, etc. Alright, lets bring in stuff on does the kremlin have a choice to make it in some areas . If its true, its been reported that some areas, some parts of the world are looking for assistance from wagner. Theyre looking for russian influence. But at the same time, if the criminal has now got some 2nd thoughts about why going off to the whole excursion in june, somebody is going to make some how decisions about how it shapes the vehicles of its future. Foreign influence a little say, i completely agree with the dentist. I think the choice that the criminal needs to make is what kind of insurance it wants to punch. I have to develop the world and how this influenza play out in the mountain. So as we have seen, for example, that the all wheel drive for cost on that in st. Petersburg at the end of june off, i mean that clearly it was on an event where sort of rush out, try to project itself as a stabilizing a false false. That would continue over to what would contribute to treating the global souls. Its just generating more disaffected with the congress that international. But at the same time, i think the try quite go to frustrated and actually achieving this kind of insurance, both commercial economic development, but also military is, is not that great if you look for somebody, right, jason, and most of the day off wagner has been a picture for quite some time and the security situation that has not at all improved. So i mean effectiveness of lock not um is we need to review that soon. Executive did the wheel track record of a bog know providing to kind of a great a secure table the door door and the value is, is basic pulled regimes so very narrow. It leads to the is congress to entertain . That group is paul. That is always full full phone policy or im afraid we all around the times. Were gonna have to leave it then lets think how i guess very much stuff on. So gay and patrick, im thank you to for watching. You can see the show again, any time by visiting our website, algae 0. Dont. Com for further discussion head over to our facebook page, thats facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. Can also join the conversation on x dot com. Our handle is a inside story from a sam is a bad and the in time food here for now is to by the illustration, we wanted to get to the largest number of young women and showed the entire nearing performers was the 1st to male z to play it in jordan to senior well celebrate female taking traditional in a new direction to go on stage. Its motivates other girls to join citizen. So jordan and egypt pon, outages here at the us is always of inside 50 full right. The world. People Pay Attention to this one here and ill do this very good that bringing the news to the world from here. The. Ready im serial venue in the hall with your top stories on houses 0. Donald trump has been charged in georgia with a racketeering and conspiring to overturn his 2020 election defeats. The former us president says his 4th indictment is a witch hunt 18 others are facing similar charges including his former lawyer, rudy giuliani. As you guys make way, every individual charged in the indictment is charged with one count, a violin