Transcripts For ALJAZ Inside 20240704

Other welcome to the program. Im adrian said again, its been 14 years since the last somebody to amazon rain forest nations, a time during which the impact of Climate Change has listened well beyond what might have been imagined back then. Floods, wild fires and extreme temperatures have destroyed lives and communities worldwide. Meanwhile, countries im missing international targets to reduce emissions as the climate crisis. Wessons. Leaders meeting in brazil all agree on the to acts. The big divisions remain on wants to be done. Well talk to, i guess shortly, around just here as life with america editor whos in belgium without some its being held. But 1st, a closer look at the amazon rain forest and its connection with the nations taking pods. The area is bossed around twice the size of india. It extends it to 8 south american countries, including brazil, bolivia, columbia equitable ground, the through and venezuela. It is a vital part of the global ecosystem, helping to regulate everything from Carbon Emissions to water cycles, bought it. Sustainability is at risk of to decades of reckless exploitation. Lets speak for the last of america editor at lucy and human whos in the brazilian city of them known as the gateway to the amazon to see it. Great to see you. What does the summit aim to achieve as well . We had to have the aims, of course, are very grand deals, whether or not they can even do a tiny amount to make a move and make any inroads. Is you have to be seen because this is going to be the 4th president ial summit of amazon in countries. And then bins is not just brazil. Its all the countries that have amazon rain forest and they will be joined also by other countries. On the 2nd day of the summit, the 2 condos, and of course indonesia, which also have very, very large reinforce that need protecting. What they are trying to do is revert Climate Change, reverse degradation, deforestation increase the rights of Indigenous People, and others who live in the Amazon Region here in brazil, for example, there are 11000000 people who live in the amazon corps going hungry. Theyre, theyre impoverished. They have no Sustainable Way of, of making a living, or its certainly not a decent way of making a living. Theres also slavery or slave work in this region, very little presence of the state. The indigenous populations dont have access to health care to education. There, there is a whole list of demands and needs by civil society, which will be presenting the heads of state with a list or a guidelines if you like, and demands for what they should be considering and what they should take action on whether they will or not is the big question, of course, some of these nations as well. Ive got the domestic issues of the dealing with at the moment that the hopping focused on, on climate issues of the i mean how you say whether they will not. But how difficult is it going to be for them to reach consensus when there are some areas in which they will reach consensus . For example, the transfer of science and technology between countries like brazil, which are more developed to others that are less developed. That should be a no brainer. It should be easy. But the big, big elephant in the room here is Oil Exploration and exploitation. In the Amazon Region, im right at the to say at the mouth of the amazon river, just still on the other side of that river is the rain forest. This is the area one of the areas that Oil Companies want to exploit. And they argue, and this has this, this is true also in countries like ecuador and many others in the region who says that theres order to have development in their country. They need to find ways of extracting oil here, environmental. This will tell you that thats absurd, not only because its because it contaminates rivers and soil, but also because they say where the humanity is living in it. And at a time when we should be weaning ourselves completely from oil, i just spoke a short while ago to the coordinator of climate observatory. And he said something that surprised me a lot. He said, the reason why theres so much resistance is that Oil Companies and countries ive have oil once it gets squeeze the last dollar, if you like, out of those resources before it becomes completely impossible to use boil anymore. The forward it is, becomes redundant with a substitute with the other sources of clean energy. So, you know, brazils president says he wants 0 deforestation, 0 contamination, but its, its difficult for him to go ahead with that. He wont have the support of many people is his country. And very briefly, lets see what role are Indigenous People that if any playing of this summit, the vision is people are very present at the summit. Theyve brought their leaders from all over the Amazon Region and not just in brazil, but other parts of the, of south america. They are insisting on their rights territorial rights rights to their culture, to be preserved and respected and promoted health education. But particularly this very sensitive part uh, area of territorial rights. Its not just a matter of living in areas that are supposed to be reserved, but they need those areas to be protected from poachers and from economic interests that will, that one to encroach on them. All. Thats what america editor, lets see. And human reporting from the gateway to the amazon, the same at a sanction date. The, the white, lets bring it, ill guess, to all joining us from brazil, from ballad without somebody is being held kind of us pettus professor of tropical conservation ecology at the university of east anglia, from sao paulo. We have john russia, a freelance journalist, and writes as shes offered several books on brazil, including motor in the rain forest and also in belgium. As from a verse, lead journalist and Research Coordinator at amazon underworld, a collaborative investigation into the presence of criminal activities at the groups in the region. Welcome to old. Lets start with you. A call us president. Let the silver said that hes got high hopes for this summit. He said that for the 1st time, were going to have a common policy for the amazon for preservation security on board is. But how difficult it, is it going to be to reach consensus with all these nations taking part to what extent will lose that have to water down his expectations . Well yeah, this is fairly unprecedented because the, the heads of states from all levels on countries below 900 century. So going to meet here. Um in brazil, this be least the way of policy 7, the politics of course, contribution. But also in terms of the, the force of the agent. Um, so here i think its going to be a very heterogeneous speaking. Um, its gonna be very hard to reach a complete consensus. But its been on the gallery uh previous to the meeting of the heads of states or. And the idea is that they are going to propose a, a so called, um, uh amazon parliament. Um, how is that . Cuz thats gonna be done as anybodys yet. Um. But yeah, im thinking, you know, im here in the lane with steve your money to secure a uh, to waiting for all the heads of state and the main amazon. Youve been the main drop of horse centuries, including the, the big block protocol, the base and indonesian, chad, whats your feeling . Go, this is president telling me that the silver go to have to water down his expectations on this. Well, its amazing. Has several come to this with very different situations in terms of what that shes doing in the amazon for us. So the last of all expiration going on already. So let me say good that sort of find the middle way because he has to do that politically. All the time, i think in the end there will be a declaration that of stays important. Things like the importance of saving these 80 percent of them as far as the google, so not speak, not take a firm stands against all expiration cause presented itself on the move by the state old company to drill for oil in the mouth of amazon, luna, and the phase is that, so he has to take rather middle stand on the list as to maybe such a bit. But it seems to me that the important thing of this meeting is exactly the. All of them come to is coming together to take a stand and mom degrades of boys and all the kind of discussions, whats going on that the various cops and international meetings. And all that was significant is the fact that just before the, the official sides Indigenous People from all of the amazon came together in the late, almost a 1000 of them. And what they said that amazing was that we want a voice in whats happening. We once we had because without us, there is no future for the awesome. So the, and this just bear with me at a, talking to the allison come to lead to saying we want to big a voice at your table and the amazon president. So thing to the world, we want to pick a voice in climate discussions. Okay. I want to come back to this issue of Indigenous Peoples and, and what role they should be playing at this summit in the future. A conservation of, of the Amazon Region. But the gen, to ecuador and peru currently dealing with their own domestic issues which, which could distract them, couldnt get from Environmental Concern concerns. Im, it is protecting the amazon a priority for all of these nations right now. Not necessarily. Um, i mean, it has decided to make it one of his priorities, but he also has a whole load of other problems to deal with. But at least hes committed himself to 0 for his clearing 0 deforestation by 2030. Its not easy because he has a sort of brewing from the coalition government, which includes parties which dont see the same way which believe in the mining and farming in the amazon and after world hes taken over of the full years of very destructive pull. This is in the amazon from the previous present. So both a lot who actively encourage illegal mining is he who farming land grabbing and so on. So he has to play really is kind of a leadership role. He wants this leadership role for bill because he loves to is the biggest, is a come to the biggest share of amazon. But none of these come to is, is it easy to take it sort of 100 percent stand in favor of them is that they have to deal with their internal issues as well. They have to deal with climate denies within their own countries will be great believe in oil drilling and all its racial then as well also depends on all those myself. Sure. So as soon as the course of juggling all these different interest coming out with a declaration of damage, state certain things, and one things i think it will say is, is to criticize the protectionism. If you are being come to this and also say with the money with all the money, which is promised. 100000000000. 00 for 2 developing countries for protecting the climate. A brand. As jennifer saying, lewis pledge to eliminate illegal deforestation by 2030 as high as president petro, of columbia. Others, is that target achievable on a given the various criminal groups that are expanding their activities right across the region . Thanks sort of the question. I think we shouldnt blind stare ourselves on the number of the forward station because to be frank 0 to deforestation, but to 1000 to 30 sounds good. But as far, you know, realistically what we observed in the amazon when we started investigating in the field, is that 70 percent of the m, as the municipalities. And the 6 main countries that showed the amazon is under criminal control. So this actually means that most of our groups and gangs are deciding who can enter, who can leave what needs to pay taxes to criminal networks and extortion fees and weights or demand calling them is donating daily life and also damaging the amazon. What we see is that their respective governments are not able to enter these areas due to security concerns. So of course there is governance, but its criminal governance. So i think the governments and they speak about before the station a mitigating environmental damages. They need to regain the confidence of populations theyve a band and soon as many decades, or maybe even theyve had a presence in the amazon and, and they should tackle criminal networks because they are running the show. And the revenues of listed economies often times are larger than the budgets of governments to combat them. So problem you would argue that security must be high on the agenda at this, this summit. What, what can be done to stop these criminal gangs . So its very important that all the president s come together for 1st starter and but the security must be on the agenda because we see the rising homicide rates at throughout the whole amazon. We see a norm as the number of mess occurs in rural colombia in the amazon. And we know that these organized Crime Networks are labeled parts to supply a single license to collapse, break across the borders into sort of criminal diplomacy. Despite linguist, stick and cultural barriers and of which the governments should be jealous because they havent managed yet to cooperate fully in the m as in the oldest criminal networks. So we need better communication, john solutions, but of course we dont only need to apply to stick, but we also need to help local populations and the fellow economic liberty on Sustainable Future plants and devin alternative besides the list of the company. Because often, and so often times we see that these locals, if know all of our Economic Opportunities tend to participate in legal coal mining. And this is comp for farming. Like, go pick her up today, many greeting for a copay of other economies that destroyed the amazon. So lastly, and if you are going to have at the end of the m, as in a need to chose the be feeding your children are conserving the 1st, you always will up for feeding your children 1st. Carlos, just how close the Tipping Point is, the amazon rain forest, how long before the damage thats being done to it becomes irreversible as well. I know were already up to 20 percent in brazil and 50 percent for the pen out of the whole 9 entries on the estimates range from. Uh, lets say you get another a 20 percent of deforestation. Uh the loan which is about 2 uh, 3 pits. The whole, the whole region um, we could already be, um, you know, we weigh pasta the, the shipping points. Um, you know, of course, forest around the world account for 84 percent of all the carbon stored in over traditionally for assistance in the amazon alone is about 90 metric tops. And thats about 15 years worth of of, of Greenhouse Gas emissions. So its absolutely imperative that we come to a 100 premium that much of the agreement basically depends on Indigenous Peoples and local communities which control. So Something Like 45 percent of the precision that wasnt alone. Um indigenous territories. Um, you know, they sure a huge role in fort conservation because theres, theres relatively little workstation inside. Most of the deforestation is, is outside those areas. So at the moment, theyre not actually getting paid for this. So they are sort of on some years. And you can see in a conference here that the low of them in, of, for, you know, for this patient at the table is like, is increasing. And, you know, were seen lots of, lots of indians. What are, what are the chances, concepts of, of this summit, recognizing that enforcing land rights for addiction is people well this has been going on for a while. Let me not go for a single loss of 5 years. Weve had a, you know, a huge slow down in the den workstation and sanctioning of new indigenous territories. But this is with a little government of this coming back to get. The problem is that over the last 30 years, weve opened the floodgates of farmers uh, from elsewhere in brazil. And it is now very difficult to stuff that frontier long and grabbing of log in farming generation. And now i go mine. And the, fortunately capacity of the British Government is still very, very small, very, very low. So as you know, i think brazil does need of international ways. And this coming now with the, with the into, of, im assuming you but its a, its a tough fence because, you know, if youre going to a control 5000000 square kilometers, weve only about 30 or 35 people. You know that, you, you, you, you are up against a huge, baffled trying to all of the regions. Governments recognize just how important the role Indigenous People play in the conservation of the writing for as president knew that the silver created brazils 1st ministry of Indigenous Peoples this year. But what about the other nations . Well, i think its very different situation in the gym. How much income to is with this is people for a long time being much more organized than they were in brazil was in way organizations really just because the last few years i think connect come to the could do a federal believe here. And this has people, a hospital organized, have a much more important political voice already. So its a different situation, even so Indigenous Peoples who lives a, she in the ellison far as i have been pushed of the lambs, my seeing the rivers and hairs have been polluted by all the company is experiencing and drilling for oil. So the, the, during the front line as to this and as far as connectivity, cisco is the previous speaker said, this is, this is an activity which has flourished in the last is in brazil. And in the us is equal criminal gains often connected to criminal gangs. In the south and some pollen re you have taken over because the state, the government, that the simply not being that. And i think this is one of the most vital things of the business and government. Something else to do now is to put the have the state active in these areas, much more enforcement in a way thats where the become, i mean, there was being a big drive to clear out illegal minus in the underlying me. Or if it sounds in the north and yeah, im a so im just a few days ago the biggest line grab a in brazil has been clearing for us and pushing in capital farming was that she rested and all his properties are come to schedule. So the middle government is beginning to move for the lasers box this year. As the previous speaker said, this was a huge area to police between force to control. And of course, the other side is providing jobs for people if they come work and illegal lining and legal land clearing, what are they going to do . Where is the jobs . So that frame pause is assigned is the cause shown that there are, if you leave the corresponding, the rod to the rest of the economy. A by economy based on as far as using is put us using essences using pharmaceutical, developing pharmaceutical products. But it is a huge area and list of things that has to be done again, you need money for it. As you say, the stock, that was a long way to go. As you say it, its such a vast area. It is almost impossible to police. I mean, to do it properly, youre going to need the consensus of all the amish foundations on to you. You log in to the consensus, and youll see youre going to meet with him to 0 because the bassoon amazon is divided up among different states. With this, sometimes its very conservative governments who are actively support for legal mining and caring for us. You have to deal with all these local differences as well because in many areas its the local municipal government, which is the start for full education of health. And so on. So its a very complex situation of need. I mean, at least level of expense in negotiation, but its not going to be easy. Brown, to what extent is, is outside funding an important pay. Uh, the International Community gets involved and weve got to us climate and boy, john kerry and francis president mccord are both in attendance at the summit of denise rich nation is needed to be need to be persuaded to provide funds to protect the amazon. How much are we talking about here . And i think rich nations already are coming from somebody in parts of protecting the m, as in which is the burns largest carbon sink. And therefore, its pretty so to preserve the amazon at the, mitigate the Climate Change. But we also know that the amazon has encroaching it, the people in which it will become an active matter, and therefore, the amazon can also become one of the worst. I mean is. So it is a global importance to protect the innocent. And let me know that the little funds and potentially could be available because you know, somebody m as in countries kind of do it as by themselves. But i think as far as the, as a Congress Need to show that they are serious, that you have a concrete agenda. And then they also have the technical capacity. For example, i was just listening to them and the other guests and talking about the operations by law in government. No, mind me, 3rd tree pushing out the legal miners. What is the legal miners are being pushed across the border toriana facility now the venezuela. So we have these migrating and gangs and elizabeth activities, and i thought it was very important, but was also mentioned that one of the main land gravitas in brazil was the rest. Because oftentimes, Law Enforcement goes of to the low, low hanging fruits and the low cost building to change so, or manage the kettle or mining, but they never, a law firm never goes after the finances of deforestation, but need more investors get the technical capacity. But its also very important, and this is where the Global Community comes into play and, and to investigate supply chains. Because oftentimes, the commodities that come from the amazon, from the far as that areas, be careful of sorry being needs laughter and minerals, hydrocarbons. They go to International Markets and if theres no trace of the benefits and theres always stuff the response. So we need the International Community, all the countries in europe, north america, but also an exit. The step will clean up their supply chains and funds efforts to protect these amazon. From you say, were close to the Tipping Point here. How long are we got . Im with so much to be done, or is there enough time to do as things go . No. This is why we need a concrete response. We need a very clear agenda at this m as in summits and then the then the possibility of an m, as in parliament, sounds very good, sports and oriented to read it really know what its about. And so we need to concrete measures and, and political announcements like 0 deforestation by to sort of the size. And i started, we know that most president s wont be around them in politics. Its easy to say, but they wont be responsible for it. So we need actions being turned into legislation and better cooperation and more money on the table for sustainable economies and region, low Law Enforcement actions responsive allies in international buyers, cleaning up the supply chain, better price, the better thing. And i think if theres a clear agenda and proposals of a bunch of them in the next few days, hopefully the International Community can do that behind this. A john with petro and lula in in office. And then his way to is president bureau by back at the summit, i have to not attending any regional meetings in, in recent years. Is that, is that cost for optimism or are you optimistic with this . Somebody can achieve something concrete . Well, i think got, im optimistic, does that make sense . Just the fact that having it isnt both and just the fact that before the out to somebody do have this meeting of maybe a 1000. This is people voicing their demos. I think thats close optimism to reading over say within the, within the whole framework you might want to really was kind of a team. But as i say just the fact that came together, that the recognizing the problems and the voice thing that the moms and wanted to have a, a more active to position within the World Climate discussions. I think that is a quote for optimism. Theres a lot of have work involved, doesnt look, negotiation and diplomacy involved, but theyve taken this step. I think thats important. Must be right. Months call us. Do you share jobs optimism . No, absolutely. I mean this is an unprecedented meeting. And this is where we need to start the there, theres been producing very little communication between brazil and all the other amazonian countries. And i think that, you know, the amazon contribution the treaty has to be very powerless to do anything. I think this is this, the breath of fresh air that are these challenges ahead. But i think this is a big start. But time is of the essence in times of the essence of because, um, you know, even reducing or the terry illegal deforestation by 2030 is a huge target. And then also there is the definition on what is the goal and what is illegal . Because what can be legal now going to be somebody come actually legal, an entry or 5 years down the line depends on the on, on, for his policy, particularly brazil. And so yes, absolutely urgent. That we, that we control of workstation and fire in the amazon. And i think this meeting is a big step for thank you so much, all the people taking posit todays inside story called us pat us generalship and bram able us as always, thank you for watching. Dont forget you can see the program again. But any time by going to the website, which is that ill just 0, dont com for further discussion, join us at our Facebook Page at facebook dot com, forward slash age a inside story. And you can join the conversation on twitter. Handle that a j inside story for me, adrian, instead of going on the scene here at the hospital city again, i filled out the the what happens in new york. 1 because implications all around the world. Its the home of the united nations. Its a center of international finance, international culture. To make these stories resonate requires talking to everyday people to normal people, not just power brokers, and thats where ill just do it is different from mayor of the city and now said he was doing away with the coast here. That was supposed to get everybody off of this International Perspective with the human touch zooming way in and then pulling back out again. We understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world to what weve been using kind of calls that matter to you, the, [000 00 00;00] the hello im 0 venue. Its great to have you with us. This is the news our lives from doha coming up in the program today for texting. The amazon rain forest, brazil hosts a summit to tackle this enormous challenge understand human invalid in brazil,