Hello. Welcome to the program. Im adrian finnegan, high level discussions between telephone leaders and us officials that taking place here in bo ha, its the 1st time. But the 2 sides have met directly since the group re, to control enough chemist on 2 years ago when nato forces withdrew. After 20 years of conflict, all the business happened behind closed doors. And little as being said by either side. Apart from 3 statements published, online spokesman for the after on Foreign AffairsMinistry Posted on social media, said the delegations discuss confidence, building practical steps towards removing blacklist and lifting sanctions. They also spoke about the freezing of f, can central bank reserves, economic stability, capturing narcotics and human rights. He added the both the us and the tunnel and government emphasized the continuation of such meetings, understanding and interactions. The Us State Department for its part is issued the stipends saying that it would be open to a technical dialogue regarding Economic Stabilization issues. Soon. Its also open to continuing dialogue on counter narcotics, saying it recognize a significant decrease in the cultivation of puppies fox. The us is express deep concern about the humanitarian crisis and the need to continue to support 8 organizations and you and body is delivering assistance. Well, before we goes, well, i guess lets recap how we got here. Kind of on swept power in afghanistan in august 2021. The us, it already announced that it was leaving ending almost 20 is a bit of reaction by a native Multinational Force which invaded off to the 911. 00 attacks the tunnel bomb inherited. The country struggling with full corruption of the groups despite early promises not to return to the oppressive policies imposed in 2001 restrictions on women baton with bands on working on girls, secondary education. The reservation says that around 97 percent of backgrounds live in poverty, 28000000, lead a just to survive this year. Most humanitarian organizations have suspended that operations of the us still holds about 7000000000. 00 of f can central bank assets, which have been frozen for the past 2 years. We did reach out to the telephone for a spokesman to join our discussion, but no one was available. So lets bring in our guests from kabul, which went by my oldest arch executive director of the outcome Living Skills Development center, and a board member of the african Womens Network from oxford to motion on will for of inside afghanistan and the executive director of the think tank afghanistan, policy lab, and from belfast. Michael, simple visiting research, professor at queens, university, belfast, us and form a deputy you special representative to afghanistan, a warm welcome to you or not to but lets start with you if we can. So weve got these talks between the us and the tunnel on the 1st face to face in quite some time. Is there anything about that that would give people who continue to suffer in afghanistan . Hope that the circumstance circumstances could change. Thank you very much for having me on your show. Thanks a lot. You know, this is one of the, its one of the hopes of rep damage done. Were really praying for something is that it wouldnt be, you know, for the benefit to the benefits of the advocate people. But what are these old notes . Its not, its not very clear. Its been quite some time the United States. I know, since they had to talk with the funding, so it was kind of overdue and the toner ones really were the only country in the world that they would like to have a talk with is the United States for, for, for some reason, the rest of the world really does not matter so much weve been talking about, but with us they love to talk. So this can be pretty, you know, interesting and may be good into the benefits of the ton of on for sure. What its going to be good for the benefit of the people enough, but to get this done, thats an entirely separate different question. Because we really dont know what is actually going on behind the scenes between United States and the part of that is something going on, which is very different from what is going on between turnover and the rest of the world and the people of tens. So as long as that is not clear to us, its a bit hard for us to really know what this is all about. Is the going to be there is going to be any games or is not because a ton of, on the, not even mention that they talked about the woman or the womans rights or, or, or the germans wrecked much the kind of on did not even mention and that was not really interesting for them. I told them the americans, what do you mean when you, when you say that theres something entirely different going on between that the telephone and the people of ive kind of saw it on the, on the face to which telephone presents to the world. Oh yeah, there is a, there is definitely a p like that because you know, the toilet bone, actually a war, a war from the, from the, from the world. And mainly from, from the, the ones that they count said the one that was from the United States out for the, for them, that is extremely important. And so far they havent been acknowledged by the, by the ones that they want the war from, you know, to say that, okay, you know, you want this one and they never tried to talk about, or whatever, only thing that the product is always, you know, as far as they are concerned, make it to you more towards the things that theyll do because they are doing it is not that this is, you know, something that there are stories being told about. Know the woman ive got a strong did really or anybody back. Thanks so so, so this is, this is what this actually going on that we know the rest of the world. Thats not really no because no matter how much the world was wanted to talk to them v e u was talks to them. The, you know, other countries of the world talks to them and, and all of the who might of teddy and help us that all of the us and the you, nama, all of that. For the tournament, the most important is that they really would like to sit down and talk to them it. So that means that theres something going on. Then piece to really understand what on earth is that . And they really would like to talk about. Alright, next my my to do more to see us really have any leverage over the telephone at these folks go to achieve anything. Do you think will, will they ultimately lead to persuading the telephone to reverse policies, but theyre making life so intolerable for people in the country . Its a very good question. I agree its, uh, well, were not sure i wouldnt, i was, i was here that when im not certain how this adults will help asking people, well, what is a clear is that the us really doesnt have a lot of leverage here. Deliberately it had uh it has already used around sanctions. It has already imposed sanctions on. Ive kind of saw it on the top of my leadership. It really doesnt have a lot of leverage at the moment on the co tons of on leadership income. The others are making decisions. But again, let me go back. What is this administration the us, the kinds us have ministrations thinking. What do we know is buying that has been very present by that have been day care about his thinking of on that kind of stone and asking people he has clearly said, summed it up, is another country, is people doesnt have, it seems to have a aspiration its divided as tribal, different doesnt really seem that its a priority for a us and us foreign policy. Now what it has focused so far, what, what are the key us interest here . And what of what is us focusing on 1st, the whole account of terrorism . It has focused on counterterrorism and trying to limit international terrorism, oppression insight f one a, some that threatens his interest around around. Well, the 2nd focus has been around the question of the remaining atkins, who have worked with with the us, especially in light of the upcoming president ial election. And the fact that the republicans are trying to portray by the instructions, effort towards the recreation in august 2021 as missy um, and incompetent. And i guess the most important point here is the hostages, the, the calling on the us off the top on our uh, having captivity. We know that the fosters diplomacy is a, is a significant factor in washington dc. We know they didnt take historically, it has taken a lot of attention and lot of buttons with the highest level from administration and that has chipped uh the perception of confidence of an administration. So i think the timing around the kind of talk to me sounds very much around the fact uh those factors that i mentioned in particular the hosted diplomacy and, and focusing on the technical issues and economics w i vision essentially means to me, to, in kind of upset the top of all it is to talk about others, but us to contribute to the right people and the thought about it at the right. Okay. You know, clearly theyre not a i mean the the seems to be this perception that by engaging with pragmatist i get no motorist pragmatist. I dont believe there is such a thing as mulder intolerable. I think they are all, its a fundamental, this group on a Clear Mission to, to fund them into the transform ask, and society and polity and beyond that kind of thing. But the, the pragmatists, the people i can look back in others and comp of the us happy and engaging with them for, for the past 4 years of, during the hot dogs and the last 2 years. None of those conversations back channel contacts have produced results came and theyre not talking to the right people. And let me mention that the talking about are we have that the us does not consist of congress on appeal, a keep biography. And then they understand that, and i think that triangles the to gain maximum leverage from what they have the hostages, that it keeps the hosted that the entire house can population as they have kept hostage. And the slowing them day by creation process. And more importantly, putting half of the population essentially in, in, in prison and pursuing agenda appetite, policy and a phone. So, okay, thats bringing michael. Michael, what did you make of the talks . This is now the right time to be talking to the top down. To what extent does the us since yeah, its a is regarding the talking about is it, is it perhaps talking more with its own interest in mind than those of the afghan people. But i think the, the us is quite a parent, explicit policies and just to talk about and take over home, being prepared to engage in dialogue with the top of onto achieve us interests. And weve got really has been constant over the past 2 years. If there have been periods where there would be gaps and thought they here. Um, oh not is it um, if there have been gaps in that area, it has been because of the tele, bonham in gauged and actions which would be just so out of it. So difficult for International Access to stomach that has become politically impossible for the us to continue the engagement. So they go through pauses. Obviously if theyre, you know, when to talk about of have bond girls, secondary education, bond women working for 8 agencies. Oh feel that was going to be a gap for us as us has returned to the table. But i think that the t movers opposite of p right with extremely limited objectives. Theyre like, you know, getting people out to tom about jails. Dont think that the, the collarbone. How, how become past masters at exploiting vehicle process t around talks like this to pretend that they are able to achieve much more than its even on the table. So for example, the telephone statement saying that they, if you raise the issues of, you know, blacklists and sanctions, well maybe theyve mentioned, but its the opposite of the inconceivable that they can make progress on with the current state of what you know of affairs, what the telephone are doing, and they the, we know that for the past 2 years, the tell about have hoped to Win International recognition. Well, its not just as the, you know, the us who are looking at how to talk because the, the top to bottom, we have the broader International Community, with some fear now helped by us, special coordinator helped me in addressing this. And frankly, american to National Recognition is just not on the agenda now. The telephone are just so, so far away from the shooting that because they consistently have said, yeah, well talk, i will never compromise. Michael, it is, is the kind of on playing with the, the us on the other. Why the International Community are, are they, are they some see it when they sit down for tools to think of a heres some of the feedback we got from the top of and to go through a tours in terms of their Lessons Learned in dealing with the us on the guns in the, in negotiations was our approach to goes to asians and we states our demands and we wait for the other side to conceit about their approach. Cool that sincere like as far as theyre concerned, this works so far. But i think that they your best to be able to have a limited to transactional relationship to know progress on big issues like oh, interNational Recognition or removing sanctions or its our essentially bringing, bringing. I found this done onto the telephone box into the international folds. Now remember, one thing which neither side is mentioned of this, because frankly, i mean the tell about how more thats ruled it out is you know, the issue over return to an increase of political system out of the Accountable Government inside off on this top. No success of un security resident Security Council resolutions of cold for that broadly, people seem to think if you want an end to conflict and off on the start, and youre going to have to have a return to an increase of political system. The telephone basically over having, you know, gone through the door talks to get the us forces out of the country, promising that they would move towards out for the past 2 years, have essentially ruled it out for us most that claim. Because the and we have that one or 2 touch eggs and those backs and youre in a and ill go from and of course project tell about those big time about in our government. We have an inclusive administration. Forgetting about women and essentially not having any representative members. Also the she and the ethnic communities and i found this stuff the put this on the agenda. Like we talked about the terrible humanitarian situation in afghanistan, a sanctions making things worse for the people of afghanistan use, do, talked about the terrible toll that thats been taken on on women and girls that are reports of a dramatic increase in the rates of suicide among African Women and an goals exact numbers are difficult to come by a post because the band suppresses reporting of, of such deaths. But to what extent are a western sanctions, making the stress, the women and girls, women and girls in particular, a suffering even worse is morally now the right time to Start Talking about the lifting of sanctions and providing for the economic aids to have kind of stuff well, you know what, the sanctions dealer and the effect the assumptions on the people understanding, especially on the appointment as an activity, you know, and believable. And the reason is that because, you know, the woman situation in afghanistan right now can become so part of this house that they are in all of the religion and Everything Else is completely out of the picture. Nothing to do anything. The women are being sold used as a, as a, as a, as a political weapon. So they are, they are your playing with your playing any time when there is a sanction or something that the 20 above dont like 101. 00 or taking it out of the woman. Oh yes. And, and this way, the lose as a, really, the, the, the, you got the, the people talk to understand the woman, the scanner started the poor of this country. And be in detroit, the to, they are the ones that they are actually the most in a, whether the, the, the, the have posted of the word continues or doesnt continue. It depends on how much it was really would like to have coach gattis on the not you know, we can look at all of all of the media effect of us will die because so far, the only thing that can go we dont have enough kind of stuff, we dont have a whole and lack of, you know, a food commodities in the country we have, we have enough. The only thing is that people dont have any money to buy it. And that, thats, thats, thats difficult. But at that, im sure theres going to be a time when we wont have that item. Then why dont we go . So this whole thing is becoming extremely political. And now you also mentioned something about these people are being, be, you know, the hostages. What last digits was they can pull off that, you know, why is, why is this coming up . This is what im saying, that theres so much going on that the people, the gums from a weight of it is just that the work was probably the you wishes aware of. And maybe maybe the, you know, the great burden and thats about it. Not everybody else knows. So what is the tough situation which hostage, who is the house and, and, and, and how many are in, in, in the, how come this became so important after 2 years . Well, this is going on. So these are the things that the people have dentist bundle actually be not aware. Okay, so thats why we do believe that the up to 2 levels of, of light is going on. Once i just want to kind of for light and the other side, theres another kind different why you have the kind of why is between the toner and the in the us government. Them dont doing whatever it is. But the other side is the line between us talking about and the people the absolutely have no people come back to just about, but i just wanna get, i wanna get michael spinning on the, on, on what the boo boo was saying that a yes, eh, eh, it to me its very interesting to talk, so you have, i do, but has brought up again the issue all of a paucity, id like to touch on to these issues. First one on the issue of continuation of assistance. I think its remarkable, given the sheer how we have given that the Telephone Company defied the International Community. Im gonna try to define the culture we government to, to insist on taking power by force rather than proceeding with a particular agreement which was available to them in culture given that the very difficult circumstances in which they came to power. I think it is remarkable that she monitoring the systems provided by the International Community has continued after level the task perfectly. The upcoming economy is around between 12. 00 and 15000000000. 00 per year to kindly 3000000000. 00 are being provided to to upfront us down an international she monitoring assistance still, despite the bob blot they, despite all the difficult relations between the telephone and the rest of the world between a quarter on the 5th of constance, National Income comes from International Actually monitoring assistance. Currently, that is not jeopardy, not because of function, stage of international act, or to find ways around the functions to allow the continuation of got to monitor and assistance. Tell the outcome, people not to help the to talk about administration, but the, the Telephone Administration has consistently being interfering in the process of delivering assistance, which im sure the team my boobies well aware of because shes in the very difficult business of trying to, from, to wrong and use in the current circumstances are basically trying to takeover organizations to insist that only tolerable unapproved registered and, and controlled organizations are able to work in the are and sub contracting. And they, the success of levels of interference. Are we to jeopardize in the continuation of the systems process, the very act of binding women from working in our assistance organizations and even into un with something which jeopardize to the delivery if you monitor and assistance. So i would say actually its whether they the tell about or prepared to show some respect for International Loans in dealing with their own people. With a kind of aid agencies will determine whether it is possible to continue to the ring assistance. All the, all the issue of the secret diplomacy on hosted youll have a lot of that time number which erase this because up to the source and that they asked on population of school the, to the site of this. But i think we must make a clear distinction between the, the role of the, the western countries who are trying to recover their citizens who are being held hostage by the top of the role of the telephone. They, you know, as timor mentioned earlier on in the us, in the, in the u. K. And n b u, the governments how the obligation to their own citizens on when citizens are held hostage abroad. And your government basically have to do everything they come to secure the release and bring them home. The telephone has held a series of people who have been out for your aid, aid workers, private citizens, all sorts of people who was shopping off around this time. Some people i, would you ever strongly advise them not to be an offer on as long as theyve got extremely Good Business to be there. But to talk about a seeing fit to hold them. There was a, theres either no due process or fiction of due process on the top is quite explicitly trying to extricate concessions from, from those governments. Decisions hostage diplomacy off the top to bottom, or not the only administration around the world which oh, which is engaged in this, but i would say no, no responsible government ever ever does it. Its got nothing to do with the outcome people whatsoever. It is a ton of on trying to to find leverage. Im both International Players and i extract things like guarantees of non cooperation with the agent that they have kind of assistance a team or doesnt, has a lot for you that to, to come back on if, if you wish to. And i also what are the, where you stand on, on the issue of sanctions a they are they useful a they should is now the time to lift the, the functions are terrible. Um and uh it does impact on many people. Uh, historically, sanctions have not necessarily been the most useful tools. But having said that, i let me a call what michael said that that the suffering of guns is not the result of simply the sanctions. But the policy is that the top to bottom episode over the last 2 years, repression and brutality of the policies towards a ask and women. And some of all that some of the policies that they have taken. It has made it impossible for International Community, including us not to show to is domestic constituency that is taking a function and functions often to you this steps to, to take. Having said that, again, its important to note that the, the us solution has produced a number exemptions and those of those are amount around a humanitarian at a delivery. So, and as you maintain a delivery is exempt from, from including and jewels and other organizations that are operating up on an exempt from those as a sensor. And that is why the, the, the kind of international and responses is working enough on this. So let me a code that its important that we eliminate alleviate the suffering of asking people. And i do believe that the International Aid must continue in a, in a font of some sort of can people and must be a deal of a, given a life of the kind quite says that 2 thirds of hopkins population are in need of humanitarian assistance. But having said that, we should not continue with the policy of appeasement. It hasnt with a present towards the top of on 7 values truth and this month. And when it comes to me goes, jason, as mike law pointed out, and finally the suffering of asking women in particular is the result of the fact that this is a fundamental, this organization. Its, its a movement that is built on fundamental mission to can clearly transform Adkins Society and politics. And ive got a son and beyond and they are on a glove Given Mission to transform that society. Look at the latest you and report that was prepared for you in a Security Council. It clearly highlights the worsening of, of the, the, the, the, the presence of a presence and expansion of the various International Test organizations, including have quite enough one song. And this entity is affecting pitching bundles. Where do i stand . Its just a matter of time to, for the telephone, produces another 911 in different parts of the world and they are the parents in our students. So were going to take a look at 615. 00 focus on expanding rapidly buckled out of a feeling. We were going to be giving that the, the last word here of it in the end, a few minutes remaining. But picking up from what my, what timor was, was saying thats about the worst thing. Humanitarian crisis in afghanistan to the, the rights of women and goes ignored the weve been continuing to suffer refreshing and that, of course, worsens and already extreme for the or the extreme poverty. And ive got to start with a dire Economic Situation in the country because 50 percent of the, of the population con, con, add anything economically. What should the us of the International Community be doing right now other than what appears to be ringing the hands of afghanistan and the telephone . Whats the solution . Yeah, youre absolutely right. Thats all ive really actually seen is when getting their hands. And im really, im really a type of, you know, uh, like, like, like a decisions were made. The decisions would take him, he will put them to actions and the results of it is one disaster after another, after another up the road map. Sorry to interrupt you, but we are out of time. I really appreciate you will being on the program today. Not prove a slash t motion on and michael simple. Um. As always, thank you for watching. You can see the program again at any time by going to the website. Ill just 0 dot com for further discussion. Joining us with our Facebook Page at facebook dot com forward slash h a inside story out. Of course you can join the conversation on twitter handle at a j inside story from me, adrian, 2nd on the team here. And so well see you again, bye for now the the territorial, social and ethnic divisions. Friends has recently seen nationwide protests after the shooting of a teenager in a pair of silver. Im to do a world goes to some of the cities, most disadvantaged communities, and explore as complex questions of french identity. Paris, a divided city analogies 0. Where is the western agenda heading . Thats the g 7. Really even matter anymore. Whos more electable, joe biden . Or donald trump or journalist in the media undermining our society. Can americans cross their Supreme Court is not corrupt. The critic who look us politics. Bottom line, the hello i am dire in jordan doha. With a quick reminder of the top stories here on the outer 0. For my years, President Donald Trump has been indicted again. The faces for accounts, including conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstructing official proceedings. His attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 president ial election by the today and then died. And then within sealed charging donald j. Trump with conspiring to defraud, you know