Hello. Welcome to the program. Im adrian finnegan, high level discussions between top on leaders and us officials that taking place here in bo ha, its the 1st time. But the 2 sides have met directly since the group retail control in afghanistan. 2 years ago, when nato forces withdrew, after 20 years of conflict, all the business happened behind closed doors and little as being said by either side. Apart from 3 statements published, online spokesman for the after on Foreign AffairsMinistry Posted on social media, said the delegations discuss confidence, building practical steps towards removing blacklist and lifting sanctions. They also spoke about the im freezing of f, can central bank reserves, economic stability, capturing narcotics and human rights. He added the both the us and the tunnel and government emphasized the continuation of such meetings, understanding and interactions. The Us State Department for its part is issued the stipends saying that it would be open to a technical dialogue regarding Economic Stabilization issues. Soon. Its also open to continuing dialogue on counter narcotics, saying it recognize a significant decrease in the conservation of puppies foss. The us is expressed deep concern about the humanitarian crisis and the need to continue to support 8 organizations and you and bodies delivering assistance. Well, before we goes, well, i guess lets recap how we got here. Kind of on swept power in afghanistan in august 2021. The us, it already announced that it was leaving, ending almost 20 years of military action by a native Multinational Force which invaded off to the 911. 00 attacks. The tunnel bon inherited a country struggling with full corruption of the groups despite early promises not to return to the oppressive policies imposed in 2001 restrictions on women baton. With bands on working on girls, secondary education. The United Nation says that around 97 percent of backgrounds live in poverty, 28000000, lead a just to survive this year. Most humanitarian organizations have suspended that operations of the us still holds about 7000000000. 00 of f can central bank assets, which have been frozen for the past 2 years. We did reach out to the telephone for a spokesman to join our discussion, but no one was available. So lets bring in our guests from kabul, which way and by level this, at our executive director of the outcome, Living Skills Development center out of both then the of the african Womens Network from oxford to motion on will for of inside afghanistan and the executive director of the think tank Afghanistan Policy Lab and from belfast. Michael simple visiting research, professor at queens, university, belfast, and form a deputy use special representative to afghanistan a welcome to you or not to but lets start with you if we can. So weve got these talks between the us and the tunnel on the 1st face to face in quite some time. Is there anything about that that would give people who continue to suffer in afghanistan . Hope that the circumstance circumstances could change. Thank you very much for having me on your show. Thanks a lot. You know, this is one of the uh, its one of the hooks of damage done. We are really praying for something is that it wouldnt be, you know, for the benefit to the benefits of the asking people. But the whether theres, oh no, its not, its not very clear. Its been quite some time the United States. I know, since they had to talk with the tony, so it was kind of overdue. And the total of on really with the only country in the world that they would like to have a talk with is the United States. For, for some reason, the rest of the world really does not matter so much weve been talking about. But with us they love to talk. So this can be pretty, you know, interesting and may be good into the benefits of the ton of on for sure. What its going to be good for the benefit of the people, but to get this done, thats an entirely separate different question. Because we really dont know what is actually going on behind the scenes between United States and the part of that is something going on, which is very different from what is going on between turnover and the rest of the world and the people of games. So as long as that is not clear to us, its a bit hard for us to really know what this is all about. Is the going to be there is going to be any games or is not because a ton of on does not even mention that they talked about the woman or the womans rights or, or, or the germans wrecked much the kind of on did not even mention and that was not really interesting for them. I told them the amount of time what, what do you mean when you, when you say that theres something entirely different going on between that the telephone and the people of ive kind of saw it on the, on the face to which the telephone presents to the world oh yeah, there is a, there is definitely the like that because you know, the toilet bone actually a war, a war from the, from the, from the world. And mainly from, from the, the ones that they count said the one that was from the United States out for the, for them, that is extremely important. And so far they havent been acknowledged by the, by the ones that they want the war from, you know, to say that, okay, you know, you want this one and they never had to talk about, or whatever, only thing that the product is always, you know, as far as theyre concerned, negativity towards the things that theyll do because they are doing it is not that this is, you know, something that there are stories being told about. Know, the woman can extend it really or anybody back. Thanks. So, so, so this is, this is what this actually going on that we know the rest of the world. Thats not really no because no matter how much the world was wanted to talk to them. B, e, u was talks to them. The, you know, other countries of the world talks to them and, and all of the who might of teddy and help us that all of the us and the you, nama, all of that. For the tournament, the most important is that they really would like to sit down and talk to them it. So that means that theres something going on. Then piece to really understand what on earth is that . And they really would like to. All right, well thats my my to do more to see us really have any leverage over the telephone at these folks go to achieve anything. Do you think will, will they ultimately lead to persuading the telephone to reverse policies, but theyre making life so intolerable for people in the country . Its a very good question. I agree its, uh, well, were not sure i wouldnt, i was, i was here that when im not certain, how does adults with how often people. But what is a clear is that the us really doesnt have a lot of leverage here. Deliberately just had a, it has already used around the assumption, so it has already impose the sanction on. Ive kind of saw it on the top of my leadership. It really doesnt have a lot of leverage at the moment on the co tons of on leadership income. The others are making decisions. But again, let me go back. What is this administration the us, the kinds us have ministrations thinking. What do we know is by that has been very present by that have been day care about his thinking of on that kind of stone and asking people he has clearly said some of that up. Its not a country is people doesnt have, it seems to have a aspiration. Its divided as tribal. Different doesnt really seem that its a priority for a us and us foreign policy. Now what it has focused so far, what, what are the key us interest here . And what of, what is us focusing on 1st, the whole account of terrorism. It has focused on counterterrorism and trying to limit international terrorism, oppression insight f, one a, some that threatens his interest around around. Well, the 2nd focus has been around the question of the remaining atkins, who have worked with with the us, especially in light of the upcoming president ial election. And the fact that the republicans are trying to portray by the instructions effort towards the recreation in august 2021 as missy um, and incompetent. And i guess the most important point here is the hostages. The, the column on the us on the top of, on our uh, having captivity. We know that the fosters diplomacy is a, is a significant factor in washington dc. We know they didnt take historically and has taken a lot of attention and lot of buttons with the highest level from administration and that has chipped uh the perception of confidence of an administration. So i think the timing around the kind of talk to me sounds very much around the fact uh those factors that i mentioned in particular the hosted diplomacy and, and focusing on the technical issues and economics w isaiah sion essentially means to me to encounter and so at the top of it is the top of, im a are others, but us to contribute to the right people and the thought about it at the right. Okay. You know, clearly theyre not a i mean the, the seems to be this perception that by engaging with pragmatists i get no motorist. Pragmatist. I dont believe there is such a thing as mother intolerable. I think they are all, its a fundamental, this group on a Clear Mission to, to fund them into the transform ask, and society and polity and beyond that kind of fun. But the, the pragmatists, the people, i can look that key on others and cobbled the us have been engaging with them for, for the past 4 years of doing the hot dogs and the last 2 years. None of those conversations back channel contacts have produced results came and theyre not talking to the right people. And let me mention that the talking about are we have that the us does not consent of congress on appeal, a keep by other things. And then they understand that, and i think that triangles a to gain maximum leverage from what they have the hostages, that it keeps the hosted that the entire house can population as they have kept hostage. And the slowing them day by creation process. And more importantly, putting half of the population essentially in, in, in prison and pursuing agenda appetite, policy and a phone. So, okay, thats bringing michael. Michael, what did you make of the talk . This is now the right time to be talking to the top down to the extent just to us. Since yeah, its a is regarding the talking about is it, is it perhaps talking more with its own interest in mind than those of the afghan people. But i think the, the us is quite a parent, explicit policies and just to talk about and take over home, being prepared to engage in dialogue with the top of onto achieve us interests. And weve got really has been constant over the past 2 years. If there have been periods when there would be gaps and thought they here, um oh not is um, if there have been gaps in that area, it has been because of the tele bonham in gauged and actions which would be just so that have oh okay, so difficult for International Access to stomach that has become politically impossible for the us to continue the engagement. So they go through pauses. Obviously if theyre, you know, when to talk about of have bond girls, secondary education, bond women working for 8 agencies. Oh feel that was going to be a gap for us as us is returns to the table. But i think that to t movie is opposite and t right . With extremely limited objectives there. And like, you know, people have to talk about jails of things that the, the collarbone, how, how become past masters at exploiting vehicle process t around talks like this to pretend that they are able to achieve much more than its even on the table. So for example, the telephone statement saying that they, if you raise the issues of your blacklists and sanctions, well maybe theyve mentioned, but its the opposite of the inconceivable that they can make progress on with the current state of what you know of affairs, what the telephone are doing, and they the, we know that for the past 2 years, the tell about have hoped to Win International recognition. Well, its not just as you know, the us who are looking at how to talk with the top to bottom. We have the broader International Community, with some fear now helped by us special coordinator helped me in addressing this and frankly into National Recognition is just not on the agenda now. The tell about are just so, so far away from the shooting that because they consistently have said, yeah, well talk, i will never compromise. Michael, it is. Is the kind of on playing with the, the us on the other. Why the International Community . How are they . Are they some see it when they sit down for tools to think of heres some of the feedback we got from i talked about and to go through a tours in terms of their Lessons Learned in dealing with the us on the guns in the, in negotiations was our approach to goes to asians and we states our demands and we wait for the other side to conceit about their approach. You called that sincere like as far as theyre concerned, this work so far. But i think that they your best to be able to have a limited to transactional relationship to know progress on big issues like oh, interNational Recognition or removing sanctions or its a or essentially bringing bringing i found this done onto the telephone back into the International Folds now remember, one thing which neither side is mentioned of this, because frankly, i mean, thats all about the top more thats ruled it out is you know, the issue over return to an increase of political system out of the Accountable Government inside off on this top. No success of un security resident Security Council resolutions of cold for that broadly. People seem to think if you want an end to conflict enough on the start and youre going to have to have a return to an increase of political system. The telephone basically over having, you know, going through the door talks to get the us forces out of the country, promising that they would move tours out for the past 2 years have essentially ruled it out for us most of the claim. Because the, and we have that one or 2 type jigs and those backs and youre in a, in a government of course project tell about those big time about in our government. We have an Inclusive Administration forgetting about women and essentially not having any representative members. Also the she and the ethnic communities and i find this stuff, they havent been able to help them put this on the agenda. Like we talked about the terrible humanitarian situation in afghanistan, a sanctions making things worse for the people of afghanistan use, do, talked about the terrible toll that thats been taken on on women and girls that are reports of a dramatic increase in the rates of suicide among African Women and an goals exact numbers are difficult to come by a post because the band suppresses reporting of, of such deaths. But to what extent are a western sanctions, making the stress, the women and girls, women and girls in particular, a suffering even worse is morally now the right time to Start Talking about the lifting of sanctions and providing for the economic aids to have kind of stuff as well, you know, these sanctions, they look at the effect of the sections of the people, the scanner spending, especially on this woman as an activity. You know, unbelievable. And the reason is that because, you know, the woman situation in afghanistan right now can become so part of this house that they are in all of the religion and Everything Else is completely out of the picture. Nothing to do anything. The women are being sold used as a, as a, as a, as a political west. So they are, they are your playing with your playing any time when there is a sanction or something that the toner above dont like one of one of taking it out on the woman. Oh yes. And, and this way, the lose as a, really, the, the, the, you all get the people talk to understand the women, the scanner started the poor country and be in detroit that they were the ones that they are actually produce. And whether the they, the, the have posted of the word continues, it doesnt continue. It depends on how much it was really would like to come down to something. Now, you know, we can, we can all of all die maybe of what effect of us will die. Because so far, the only thing that can go we dont have enough chemist on, we dont have a whole, a lack of, you know, a food commodities in the country. We have food, we have enough. The only thing is that people dont have any money to buy it and that, that, thats, thats difficult. But at that, im sure theres going to be a time when we wont have that item, then were done with them. So this whole thing is becoming extremely political. And now you also mention something about these people being deep, you know, the hostages. What last digits . Once they can pull off that, you know, why is why is this coming up . This is what im saying, that theres so much going on that the people of us comes from a weight of it is just the work was probably the you wishes aware. And maybe maybe the, you know, the great but, and thats about it. Not everybody else knows was so what is this hostage situation which hostage, who is the house and, and, and, and how many, okay. And, and, and how come this became so important after 2 years, whether or not this going on. So these are the things that the people have dennis bundle extra, 50, not aware. Okay. So thats why we do believe that the up to 2 levels of, of light is going on. One side of just one kind of light and the other side. Theres another kind of the other kind of why is between the ton of um, and the in the us government, them dont doing whatever it is. But the other side is the night between us talking about and the people to the absolutely have no. People come back to just about but i just wanna get, i wanna get michaels opinion on, on what level, but was saying that yeah. It to me its very interesting to talk to you about has brought up again the issue all of a positive. Id like to touch on to these issues. First one on the, the issue of continuation of assistance. I think its remarkable. Given the c l, we have given that the Telephone Company defied the International Community identified to define the country government to, to insist on taking power by force rather than proceeding with a particular agreement which was available to them and in culture. Given that they very difficult circumstances in which they came to power, i think it is remarkable that you monitoring the systems provided by the International Community has continued after level the task. Currently, the upcoming economy is around between 12. 00 and 15000000000. 00 per year to kindly 3000000000. 00 are being provided to, to upfront us down in international she monitoring assistance still, despite the bob blot they, despite all the difficult relations between the telephone and the rest of the world between a quarter on the 5th of off constance, National Income comes from International Actually monitoring assistance. Currently, that is not jeopardy, not because of function, stage of international act, or to find ways around the functions to allow the continuation of got to monitor and assistance, tell the outcome. People not to help the to talk about administration. But the, the Telephone Administration has consistently being interfering in the process of delivering assistance, which im sure the team for my boobies well aware of because shes in the very difficult business of trying to, from, to wrong and use in the current circumstances are basically trying to takeover organizations to insist that only tolerable unapproved registered and and controlled organizations are able to work in the are and sub contracting. And they, the success of levels of interference are we to jeopardize in the continuation of the systems process. The very act of binding women from working in our assistance organizations and even into un with something which jeopardize to the delivery if you monitor and assistance. So i would say actually its whether they the tell about or prepared to show some respect for International Loans in dealing with their own people. With a kind of aid agencies will determine whether it is possible to continue to the ring assistance. All the, all the issue of the secret diplomacy on hosted you have a lot of that time number which erase this because up to the source and that they asked on population as go little the for the site of this. But i think we must make a clear distinction between the, the role of the, the western countries to trying to recover their citizens who are being held hostage by the top of the role of the tal about they, you know, as t more mentioned earlier on in the us in the, in the u. K, and n b, e u, the governments, how the obligation to their own citizens on when citizens are held hostage abroad. And your government basically have to do everything they come to secure the release and bring them home. The telephone has held a series of people who have been out for your aid, aid workers, private citizens, all sorts of people who was shopping off around this time. Some people i, would you ever strongly advise them not to be an offer on as long as theyve got extremely Good Business to be there. But the tal about seeing fit to, to hold them. There was a, theres either no due process or fiction of due process on the top is quite explicitly trying to extricate concessions from, from those governments. Decisions hostage diplomacy off this paula bond, or not the only administration around the world which oh, which is engaged in this, but i would say no, no responsible government ever ever does it. Its got nothing to do with the outcome people whatsoever. It is a ton of on trying to to find leverage over international players. And i extract things like guarantees of non cooperation with vision or they have kind of assistance a team or doesnt, has a lot for you that to, to come back on if, if you wish to. And i also what are the, where you stand on, on the issue of sanctions a they are they useful a they should, is now the time to lift the, the functions are terrible. Um and uh it does impact on many people. Uh, historically functions that have not necessarily been the most useful tools. But having said that, i let me a call what michael said that that the suffering of guns is not the result of simply the sanctions. But the policy is that the top to bottom episode over the last 2 years, repression and brutality of the policies towards a ask and women. And some of all that some of the policies that they have taken. It has made it impossible for International Community, including us not to show to his domestic constituency that is taking a function and functions often to you this steps to, to take. Having said that, again, its important to note that the, the us solution has produced a number exemptions and those of those are amount around a humanitarian at a delivery. So, and as you maintain a delivery is exempt from, from including and jewels and other organizations that are operating up on an exempt from those as a sensor. And that is why the, the, the kind of international and responses is working enough on this. So let me a code that its important that we eliminate elevate the suffering of asking people. And i do believe that the International Aid must continue in a, in a font of some sort of can people and must be a deal of a, given a light of that kind of crisis. The 2 thirds of hopkins population are in need of humanitarian assistance. But having said that, we should not continue with the policy of appeasement. It hasnt what appears on towards the top of on 7 very is truth and this month and when it comes to me goes jason, as mike law pointed out, and finally the suffering of asking women in particular is the result of the fact that this is a fundamental, this organization its, its a movement that is built on fundamental mission to come. Clearly transform atkins, the site in politics comes on and beyond and they are on a god Given Mission to transform that society. Look at the latest you and report that was prepared for you in a Security Council. It clearly highlights the worsening of, of the, the, the, the, the presence of a presence and expansion of the various International Test organizations, including have quite enough one song. And this entity is affecting pitching bundles. Where do i stand . Its just a matter of time before the telephone produces another 911 in different parts of the world and they are at the pension. Are students that are going to take a look at 16 pockets on expanding, rapidly, buckled out of a feeling. We were going to be getting that the, the last word here of it in the end, a few minutes remaining. But picking up from what my, what timor was, was saying thats about the worst thing. Humanitarian crisis in afghanistan to the, the rights of women and girls ignored the weve been continuing to suffer refreshing and that, of course, worsens and already extreme for the or the extreme poverty enough. Can i start with a dire Economic Situation in the country because 50 percent of the population con, con, add anything economically . What should the us of the International Community be doing right now other than what appears to be ringing the hands of afghanistan and the telephone . Whats the solution . Yeah, youre absolutely right. Thats all ive really actually seen is when getting their hands. And im really, im really a type of, you know, uh, like, like, like a decisions were made. The decisions would take him, he will put them to actions and the results of it is one disaster after another, after another up the road map. Sorry to interrupt you, but we are out of time. I really appreciate you will being on the program today not prove a slash t motion on. And michael, simple. Um, as always, thank you for watching. You can see the program again at any time by going to the website. Ill just 0 dot com for further discussion. Joining us with our Facebook Page at facebook dot com forward slash ha, inside story out. Of course you can join the conversation on twitter. Ill handle the inside story from the adrian so they can on the team here. And so well see you again, bye for now the the on learn, learn. We become to inquire with Louis University and discover how to frame and solve present future challenges. And ive been told stories from asia on now to see if the play on the bulk of this is use our life and the coming up for the next 60 minutes. Evacuations underway in the french nationals. And how do you or if he ends up being flowed out as bored as close as jazz to pose leadership as told address era, any military intervention from echo aust, would be legitimate, accusing the junk of rounding up the top politicians. Uh definitely that is uh in hunting for me they have not yet succeeded in it