Very disappointed about that because ideologues online shopping. And theyve got so many different brands in there. So its one of the stores i shop in very frequently. So yes, and they then use and around 130 people who are going to lose their job to greg actually work. There was a guy were from brighton and i always thought of stuff from there and i think they were babies, christmas things, things for the house. Its so easy. Its really, really sad. Irans parliament has passed a draft motion to start the International AtomicEnergy Agency having unrestricted access to its nuclear science. The proposed changes could allow iran to resume uranium enrichment at levels of 20 percent. That the government and the Foreign Ministry have already announced their thoughts that they dont agree with this action plan. Its not a necessary nor helpful. Its not clear if the parliamentarians get what they seek. Unfortunately, they didnt Pay Attention to our points of view. Photos have emerged of what appears to show Australian Special forces drinking from the prosthetic leg of a dead taliban fighter. The photos have been published in the guardian, australia. They were apparently taken in 2009 in afghanistan. A whistleblower in china has leaked documents which show Health Officials misled the public for months over how serious the coronavirus was. According to files seen by c. N. N. And verified by 6 experts, the reported number of cases was lower than what was contained in on turn, all documents, c. N. N. The documents dont indicate intentional withholding of information, but mishandling of information. Its the stream max American People have finally poking around here. As i swear when americans are around the world becomes more dangerous. The world is looking at us with a mixture of sadness and with the election behind us. While the Republican Party dumptruck the weekly take on u. S. Politics and i think that the bottom are rapidly and can evoke into this thing. All of the school we out there inside is running discussions that he needs to find like you have us and our Online Community today having that camp back on like my laptop. And this is what we will often ask. Is there a story or if she think we should cover album ski down hallways and you can see clovis running dunalley and claim. He says that in parts of government surveillance on its citizens, the same rhetoric and euphemism used, the war on terror to justify and pressed into possible data gathering of his citizens is being developed around pivot 19 to track peoples movements. So we want to discuss in National Today is being personally safe and healthy wolf giving up your past new data. Do you have to do that . If youre a new chief, jumping the comments that us, that your opinions and your takes your experiences. But you have to include them, so you too can be in the street. Let me introduce you to the guests who introduce themselves to you. Ive got to run a welcome to the string. Tell everybody who you are. Thank you for having me on reilly dylan. Im a physician at Harvard Medical School and formerly served as an advisor to the president of guinea on message and people. Its good to have you on the makes how or who welcome to the strain. Thank you for having me. Im robin martin. Im a partner with trial eco, i had its Technology Practice and most recently i helped the indian government, whether its our oga safe to Contact Tracing out. Looking forward to hearing about that. And irene, welcome to the skin, tell of what i am a Senior Researcher for the citizen lab. We are a cybersecurity and Human Rights Research lab based at the university of toronto in trying to canada. Great to have you all of the you cast. Im going to start with and how does your online show called start here. They looked at surveillance during this era of a Global Pandemic, and wondered how far east see far in terms of invasion of privacy. So im going to hand over to saundra. If our men and the media and what is out to help us track of it 19 quantify covert 19. Theres an app for that crucial recognition g. P. S. Glue to make it easy. Cameras and drones keeping honest to this is a kind of mortar should be very surveillance, is really spreading to everything working. Its all about tracking people to contain the spread. But some want to know whos policing the Police Doctrine or as adults in terms of technology and whats possible, what if you see what is exciting for yes, from my standpoint, looking at it from the Public Health response is missing. When we talk about Contact Tracing, the role for technology could be very big in that. Now practice. Just saying that privacy is a 1st and foremost consideration and the technology should not be used unless that can be assured. But from a standpoint of trying to contact trace, when people are moving around again as, as countries and as places start reopening, if somebody is found to be positive, it becomes very difficult to figure out who exactly was around them and who may have been exposed. You could be riding on a train with some, but with people youre never going to know their names. Youre never going to be able to figure out who they were. And thats where these apps that can at least detect whose phone has been close to that person. Can be very useful for finding the contacts and then the 2nd piece of that is finding them quickly right now by interviewing people. It takes 2 or 3 days, sometimes to track people down. But with apps, you can conceivably instantaneously notify somebody. And thats the lead of identifying a contact is critical. And i said to making the case for why we need them. Im just wondering who you want king and i want right now, what the apps that are out there that you seem to make anything film, do you intend to . What is possible . Yes, so look, the app that were working on is a plain manila Contact Tracing app. But there are so many other apps, you know, youve got joe fencing apps that will actually put you within a electronic box. And the moment you straight out of that box, an alarm is going to go off. You know, youve got facial Recognition Technology as we saw in that video just now that can identify you just based on the photograph. So if youre someone whos supposed to be important in, they will use facial recognition to identify you and your best as a whole. Theres a whole range of ways of technologies that are that much. So i think the point is that whenever you stick knowledge e, you are making a trade off. And sometimes when the situation is dire, the tradeoffs that you have to make are or are more extreme. And the most important thing is, once that situation asas, youve got to scale it back and i think thats the critical thing, nd i knowing what is he seeing what a you seeing out there, that you can actually describe how it actually works and a persons idea is if were being asked to put an apple in half turn and this is going to help us realize if weve been in contact with somebody has got to think 900. If we have to be 19 and then were in contact with someone. Can you explain in a very accessible way, how much might work . Yes, so i think there are a lot of concerns with Contact Tracing apps. So 1st of all its not clear whether using kind of tracing apps would be a lot more effective than manual Contact Tracing. So manual Contact Tracing involves interviewing people and so the contact tracers are both of you know, our detectives, but theyre also therapist and theyre also social workers straight. So theyre able to get details as to where the person who has been. 6 particularly during the time when they were contagious with conduct tracing apps or are a host of issues to related to privacy specifically concerns regarding surveillance. And its not clear if the method behind Contact Tracing apps would be a lot more productive than the manual contact racer that i mentioned previously. And so some of this concerns include, for instance, you know, vulnerabilities for guarding the potential of hacking of technologies like bluetooth or where a contact logs are being stored. Our very invasive in terms of the requirements to install the app or use the app. So for instance, ive seen apps where it requires access to your camera to take photos and videos. It requires access to your memory card. So its not clear that these functionalities are required to, to run the out, and therefore their risk infringing on users privacy. Let me share something of you, which was a very easy sort of a graphic so that you can see how one system may blanch. This is a pretty 1st Contact Tracing. So youll phone it gives out random messages every few minutes. And then when you see somebody else, thanks to somebody else, you phones as long as your pay from the same app will exchange those messages. Both of the phones, remember what was said and heard in the past 14 days, which is believed to be the time in which you can actually get covert 900 sometimes. And then if our carriage to here gets covered 19, she sent a message to a hospital has a phone and let everybody else know who was in contact with her. And also was on the app. And then you then can either south quarantine, go to your doctor, etc, etc. Thats a very basic walkthrough of how apps or how an app may well work. I want to bring in dr. Mike, why im here. I know you all know him from the don h. O. Briefings, and he, he had a briefing last week and dr. Mike ryder explained why, man, your testing is not enough. The manual interviews are not enough. We need to use technology curious. But of doing quarantine for contacts, we have seen time and time again in countries that have contained this wireless and brought under control without the need for massive lockdowns have done it through the application of principles. Human rights, traditional books. Sometimes quite aggressive. Public health surveillance. Does you any that does seem to be some tension between doctors thinking if this is going to help me and people who are very concerned about privacy in technology, do you think this is a time to even be worrying about this . I think definitely we need to take privacy to consideration and you know, i fact agree with everything there are going to set. I think 1st and foremost, privacy has to be a short. Im not a technologist so i dont know all of the complexities that go into that. Certainly that needs to be a short 1st and foremost. Secondly, i would say we also need to, we need to build this on top of a system of manual Contact Tracing. So im not saying its an either or equation. I think a lot of the discussion around this as unfortunately, been either or i think we need to have strong manual Contact Tracing systems in place. Now the advantage that the apps can provide on top of that, especially if its done in a way that secure, like were saying it needs to be that way, then it can make it actually accelerate no permit, which are manual traces can do. And that the 2 parameters that it really allows you that i think dr. Ryan is referring to is one is comprehensiveness of identifying fully, all the people who are real contacts. Like i said, especially when things start reopening for what now, in many countries where things are locked down, the people around you in your house or your are your contacts. People are not really moving around, theyre not going to work. Theyre not going to public places. When that changes, its going to become very difficult to identify who always around somebody could have been exposed number one and then number 2. The other thing that and dr. Ryan might be referring to is speed. So the challenge with covert in particular is that people become infectious 2 days on average before they have any symptoms and are most infectious actually the 1st day they have symptoms according to the most recent data that we have. And so the challenge becomes if i become infected and i get symptoms, and i get diagnosed at a hospital, if its taking longer than a day or 2 days to identify my contacts, dave probably already transmitted on to others. And so does the speed becomes critical because if you identify the context too late, transmission will have already happened. I want to put some questions jean from each of shine your sense the after because it 19 these stop i know youre working with in 0. Now, if you can a plain vanilla tracking app, does this have a mind time that goes beyond kind of a team . Is it a long term apple, or is it just for show time . So the app very clearly says that this is an app for covert 19 and in the app theres no clear sunset clause, but the government has just released a the other sharing protocol which has a 6 month sunset clause. And it essentially says that in 6 months will review it, but unless the review says something differently, were going to shut this down in 6 months. So i think its really important to actually have that sort of a sunset on the use of these apps if it, at the very least, gives people some assurance that its not going to be used for long term surveillance. Im looking here at the apple. Apple has its own twitter feed and disliking here at the at right now, it kind of hinted in your piano, see it with mitch and youre obviously very concerned about privacy for us, ditching our plan, sign up. Every user is assigned to the needs of randomized anonymous device id, all communications between 2 devices, between device and service done using device, no pass information g. s to any communication. So you already think a sensing that people are going to be quite concerned about this or who support me know . Absolutely. Well, well, you know, in normal circumstances you wouldnt want an app that speaking of your every movement and figure out who you met, grant them strangers, youve met where you, what went for a walk. And so if that the app is doing that, because were in a pandemic, weve got to be very sure that whatever data we have to take on the circumstances, we take it in a privacy 1st way. So, you know, weve got this device id, so its a random number and theres no personal information thats, thats exchanged. And by default, all the information that its collected remains on the form. Its only pulled up if you turn positive and weve got a rigorous data deletion protocol. So every 30 days, the data thats on your phone gets wiped out. You know, dr. Dillon said that you dont it be on 40 days, and weve just got another 40 made before, but every 30 days that, that they dont know for gets to beat it. Let me bring in our thoughts can hes the executive director of the Surveillance Technology oversight project. He has some very deep concerns at despite what he said, rahul about these apps being on peoples past no devices. So listen to, im deeply worried that governments are rushing to deploy unproven and invasive forms of Surveillance Technology and our rush to come back over in 1000. But a lot of these systems will actually work. Theyll divert energy for a manual Contact Tracing. The only approach that does have purifier evidence thats affective in combating the virus. But worse than that will be laying a new framework for surveillance that will impact us for generations to come. A system that can potentially be used by Law Enforcement by immigration enforcement, and by every other facet of government, then we have seems loss of concerns about privacy and 9, for instance, Elizabeth Rainey says, who owns the data that this is a new chief right now. Thanks, elizabeth. This, who owns the data . These apps collect . How easy, easy is it for governments hold on to that data beyond the country quarantines . I mean, do you have any stories that are actually sort of stories that a warning us about the dangers of apps and how that 1000. 00 tracking . Yes, so theres a story coming out of in which the government has proposed a Contact Tracing app that will retain the data i think up to 10 years. So it could potentially be, you know, well after the kind of makes us over. And if i lay i am, i would like to follow up on the concerns regarding our yes it to were just see Contact Tracing at that is being used in india. So to my understanding the, its not just for Contact Tracing, but its at all in one app. So users are given color coded, showing infection risk. It gives access to tell a medicine pharmacy and diagnosed diagnostic services. So the concern is that the more services or functionality there are that are offered in the app, it could mean that more data is being collected. And also i think we should be concerned when these apps are being deployed in jurisdictions where there are no data privacy laws. So in india, for instance, at the moment, there is no National Privacy law and also to mitigate trust issues and you know, i, there was a survey recently that was conducted a mom, i think 4500 americans that found a 50 percent. Were not install apps a little trust. So obviously issues of trust is very important too to address. And this is where a sunset clauses or an expiry date of when the app will be use is very important as you and ron has pointed out. And also to make sure that the out is open source. And this means that the code and methods behind the apps and the independently verify rules. You want to pick up on some of that criticism of the way the technology to help cover 1000 tracking. Sure. So look, i never hinted that the app was only contact racing. I said it best be militant expressing it does 3 things. Actually the 1st is it provides communication and provides access to what we call the means. Features look, if this is a desperate time weve been in a lockdown for almost 2 months. There are, you know, people have Mental Health issues in the get in touch with doctors. There is a feature to get access to tell you medicine, but that telemedicine is completely outside the app. Its a link that takes you to a different place. The app does contact racing. It does provide you with the green, yellow, or orange badge, which essentially is the feature of our contact, racing. And it does a 3rd thing which we havent mentioned, which i think is extremely important. And that is what we call some drama mapping. It picks up people symptoms and then it picks up completely anonymous signals of people signal of peoples illnesses. And if it can identify a heat map of disease clusters that are developing, it has the ability to actually identify clusters are disease even before it actually happens. And the data is showing that are obviously there has identified 130 spots clusters between 3 and in days earlier than the medical officers on the ground found it. And of course, you can imagine that that can be tremendously useful by getting, you know, medical resources down to the ground before it actually spreads to much in the community. So yeah, i mean, it does least 3 things. But its in the context in which its been designed them and its the data showing that it is successful. Right now i have, i have said that there are privacy provisions built in and i think those privacy provisions address the safeguards, even though as, as irene says, we dont have a privacy law. I mean, we dont have a procedure law. We have to build the app. How do we do it in the most privacy preserving way . I mentioned the 3 things that weve done, which are built into the design of the aft, which i think will, will address those concerns. Even though we dont have a privacy. Ok. Oh my goodness, there are so many concerns online right now. 1st of all, let me start off with with this doctor. I know i want to put this to you, which you are opposed done in the u. S. In canada, in the u. K. How many people would actually download a current of virus Contract Tracing app. And not that many people were happy about doing it. What would you say to them dr. Rani . Well, i think the issue is that up front, we need to figure out some of these questions that irene and brothel are pointing to. How can we do this in a privacy preserving way . And i think that concern has to be figured out, and i dont think thats in this in the u. S. Context. Been clearly figured out. And once its figured out, it also has to be then publicized and promoted to, to the public in a way that they can understand. As irene reporting out the code behind all of this so that we can really know what goes into it. So people can garner that trust in the app. So i think, you know, none of these things happen from day one and, you know, go to scale, but i think we need to figure out some of those questions. 1st and foremost, like i said to him, we cant do that then was to be pushing the app. We should do it when we can actually do it in a way thats safe and that preserves privacy and then secondly, people can trust. So, you know, i see those numbers and i think if we figure out solutions to some of these questions in a way that we can then promoted to the public and people see it and try it and, and understand the value of it. I think you can see those numbers grow, but i think were still at an early point in this. I think, you know right now the focus really should be getting the manual tracing systems upon which this type of App Technology could really work well in place 1st. Secondly, i think as we Start Building out these apps to me, its not something that should go to scale right away. I think we need to actually try it out, work out the kinks, understand what the falls are, especially around some these questions and concerns that people have. I think we do it in a staged manner that doesnt have to be over years. That can be in weeks to months. I think we can do this in a way where it actually works. I know you also do it in a way that builds up the trust that people need for it to actually go to scale in a way thats affected. You not just as reading put in, let me see something thats just happened in qatar the time. And now well have a man to treat tracking app, and this is who he is from the system for a minister, the spokes person. This is the app. Absence of its quite similar in china as well, where you actually use code that is going to tap for a couple of things. This is one of my child leaks peter davi, and he, sed, shown here at what it looks like. So hes already got his coat, a copy, you need this code in order to go outdoors, and then the pen missions. This is just in china, the missions that you need to give location, your phone, your storage, your disable, your screen goes on and on. And on. Irene, are you worried that apps like this that say you need this to say how clean we need to do this to fly code 19 and i, you can see this is already happening that people asked so many questions, but its already happening around the world. Yes, absolutely, i mean watching it as seeing as a permissions are required is already given the anxiety level on. If i have to personally download it. I mean, i think there are a number of organizations out there that have given recommendations on the best practices of conduct tracing apps. And number one on those lists are typically that be voluntary that people should not be forced to download the app. Right and buy more, think about it. So again, it would undermine trust because naturally people would be suspicious like why or why do i have it all or who has arguments to this . Might it have this or, i mean you, you make a good point only just because jack, who she sees on you tube right now, what you and he says, what if we refuse to download the app . What then exactly. And that is definitely a concern, especially in jurisdictions where, you know, there are known to have very repressive governments. If we think of the situation in the philippines where president , the territory has issued a shoot to kill order for people who violate lockdown measures. And if you have magical contact, transit allocation, all implemented along the strip to kill or there may be, you know, facial recognition. I mean, the amounts of Human Rights Violations that could happen as a result im imaginable. And certainly was a war situation where we have a human rights crisis that are says to me on the health crisis. I want to just before we end here is to bring in an attraction of doctors who see how Helpful Technology can be. And they definitely pro Technology Help uncover it 19 track and have a listen to that. Its Digital Tools and technology could be really useful in the response to prove it. 19, were looking at using automatic s. M. S. Questionnaires in parts of west and Central Africa where people use s. M. S. Quite frequently. In responding to these questionnaires and explain what symptoms they have, were hoping to identify people with signs of 19 much at a much earlier stage. We see in, for example, in the early temperature tracking devices use in front of hospitals and some Public Stores with people who wore exhibiting some symptoms. Probably from cornell for a slight fever or introduced popular places is the dad is a valuable to all of us. Think about how it will empower those lower income workers, Health Care Workers that perhaps need to ride Public Transportation to get to work so much still to debate and discuss. Irene, thank you for being in at this question. Thank you for being on the stream. Our who and how to run it as well. Then leave you back here, my laptop with the code, the tracking tracker from m. I. T. Theyre asking for your help to help track other truck as around the als call if youre on my laptop. And so what you good luck with the relief coded 19 is a Public Health crisis that has been compounded by capitalism, navigates the big questions, raised by the Global Pandemic housing system based on private ownership of profit. So the wall than a ton of busts, capitalism is the pandemic act. So much of the exploited to protect the people for the profit episode, one of the full hail the meltdown on aljazeera. When the breaks are fro, mirka, when people need to be heard and the story needs to be told. Thats why having a priest testing in areas with a high infection rate with exclusive interviews and indepth reports, see people here tell us they are desperate. Theyre hungry and hopeless. Aljazeera has teams on the ground kind of loves to impact their 2nd blow up doll with power to bring you more Award Winning documentaries and light news. Pakistans k. S. C. 100. 00 are said more than 36 percent. We bring you the stories and developments that are rapidly changing the world we live in. The water is going dispensable to economic activity. But industrial users are worse than access to fresh water. Counting the cost on aljazeera aljazeera over there, i have a more here with the aljazeera news are coming to you live from doha. Coming up in the next 60 minutes, pfizer becomes the latest Pharmaceutical Company to seek approval from the e. U. Regulators for use of its coronavirus vaccine. The u. K. s Retail Sector takes another hit. As a result of the pandemic aid agencies say there is enough food to go round, but many ethiopian refugees are