Transcripts For ALJAZ Inside Story 20240711

Been massacred in northern ethiopia as fighting continues between the military and local forces in the t. Grey region. Amnesty International Says hundreds may have been killed on monday. Gold, if not, hundreds of civilians were stuck to it today. In a small town called cutter, which is in the southwest of the degree region likely most likely on the night of november 9th. These victims appear to be civilians appear to be laborers no way involved in the ongoing military offensive. In the region. South africas governing a. N. C. Party secretary general is due to appear in court on corruption charges. Supporters gathered close to the court to protest against the charges. Hes facing corruption charges linked to a multimillion dollar government projects top u. S. Election officials have described the president ial vote as the most secure in u. S. History denying any fraud. It comes as more republicans break ranks with donald trump over his refusal to call for 8 with president elect joe biden. The u. S. President has banned americans from doing business with companies owned or controlled by the chinese military, the executive orders, his beijing forces, chinese firms to help finance and modernize its military. The ban takes effect on january 11, days before trial is due to sept. Ruling party has won enough seats in parliament to form myanmars next government more than a 1000000 people, many from ethnic minorities were unable to vote after the government cancelled polls because of fighting. Youre up to date with the headlines on aljazeera. Ill have more news for you right after inside story. Do stay with this. Is there a skit realistically having to do with institutionalised corruption and discomfort . Should we listen . If this breaks up until conflict between budgets and india . This has implications for the rest of the world. We meet with global newsmakers and talk about the stories that matter. The opposition has left the building. Hong kongs prodemocracy legislators resigned on mass to protest against the removal of colleagues deemed unpatriotic. So is this the end of political dissent in the semi autonomous chinese territory . This is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program. Im a mass walkout is raising new concerns about democracy in hong kong. 15 opposition. Politicians stepped down after the dismissal of 4 colleagues considered a threat to chinas National Security. Beijing says the resignation is a farce and a direct challenge to its authority over the former british colony. The u. K. Is accusing china of breaking its promise to preserve the citys autonomy. Hong kongs legislature has effectively been left with no political opposition, as adrian brown reports. Hong kongs Legislative Assembly was quieter than usual on thursday. Now that almost a quarter of its lawmakers have resigned or been disqualified and staging whats likely to be their last protest. The chinese characters say hong kongs leader carrie lamb has pulled calamity to the territory and its people shell stink for 10000 years. The slogan was displayed by democratic lawmaker lambchop team who must now give up his office. By the end of the month, i will keep fighting for democracy of hong kong. Knew their version of end with all the hong kong people and the Civil Society to face against the dictatorship. This is what chinas leaders want to stamp out. Lawmakers behaving badly with those from the democratic camp accused of being the main culprits. Chinas government has condemned the mass resignation of almost all hong kongs opposition as a farce with only themselves to blame for their downfall. Says a soul. Hong kong delegate to chinas most powerful political body, eats only a little the year. What china has been doing is based on the constitution and basic law, therefore everything should be done in accordance with the law. We cannot bad mouth one country 2 systems and the Chinese Government analysts say hong kongs legislature is set to become little more than a rubber stamp parliament, but dissent outside the chamber will likely continue. What does this mean . This means continuing instability. You can push it down with the police, you can push it down with the rest. But it will just it really. It is not clear what this means for elections supposed to have been held 2 months ago, but now pushed back until september next year because of coded 19 on thursday. Chinese officials here in hong kong warned that legislators who resign or have been disqualified, should not be eligible to stand in that poll. When stay shake up of Parliament Comes just 4 months of the, chinas government imposed a sweeping National Security law on the territory that some critics call draconian. And in spite of continuing international criticism, chinas leadership remains both confident and defiant. Adrian brown, aljazeera, hong kong. All right, lets bring in our guests from hong kong. We have emily lau, former chairwoman of the Democratic Party of hong kong. Gordon chang is an author and conservative columnist he joins us from new jersey. Also joining us from hong kong is stephen vines, a journalist, and author of several books on the relationship between hong kong and china. Welcome to each of you, emily. Let me start with you today. How much is all of this going to reshape hong kongs Political Landscape . Well, i guess very much, and some of the people who do that spoken to or saying dense things are going to get a lot more worse. And so i think we have to really fasten our seat belt because it seems beijing and the administration of kerry lamb just they dont just give a damn about Public Opinion here or internationally. And theyre hell bent on cracking down on dissent. Now, depend, democrats have left the Legislative Council because we have a pandemic and social distancing loose people cannot turn out to march in huge numbers. So there is a lot of pent up feeling of anger and frustration and concern. And i think i think things things are going to get worse. So. 6 were ready and dont think that we have checking that. Ill know were ready and we will continue with the struggle. But things could turn nasty. Stephen, how much does all this damage or damage further . Hong kongs reputation in the world as, as an open city, as a, as a bastion of for freedom of speech and the rule of law. Well, this is part of the process. I mean, weve had the National Security law. Excuse me, weve had teachers, weve bookstand cetera, et cetera. And hong kong lives and dies by its reputation as place where there is rule of law where there is predictability. And there was quite a degree of freedom of speech. Once that disappears or is eroded, hong kong becomes a much lesser lengths. It certainly does not become the ideal place to locate International Businesses or indeed to become a Tree International center. So its quite serious. I think thats putting it mildly in terms of consequences. Gordon the United States has said that china flagrantly violated hong kongs autonomy after the ousting of these lawmakers. The u. S. Is now also. Busy warning of further sanctions against china. The relationship between the 2 countries has been at a low point for a while now. How much more does this strain that relationship . I think this could strain the relationship substantially, especially if the trumpet ministrations starts to designate more individuals under the hong kong autonomy act and the hong kong human rights and democracy act. Also, you know, it could designate sea jumping, for instance, because he is undermining hong kong autonomy. And indeed if the u. S. Imposes the banking sanctions that could just sever the relationship between the United States and china. Emily, i just want to ask you to expand a little bit more on on your previous answer. I mean, with regard to the new resolution passed by beijing, how much easier now, does it become to quassia dissent in hong kong . Well, i think to quash dissent among politicians, elected politician is very easy. And now of course, they have all left the council and some are predicting that none of them would be allowed to stand as candidates again and also carry lem postpone the Legislative Council election meant for september this year. To september, the ixia. All maybe even beyond that, we dont know where the election will be held. So i think many people are very pessimistic. Thinking that it will be very difficult if not impossible, to get back into the legislature. And also de, i thinking that beijing may also crack down on the local levels, the District Councils, because of the huge victory in the election last november, and many be dominated by the pen democrats. So theyre best concerned that they may even try to us. The elected District Council is as well. So it is very, very alarming. And thats why i said britain, which is the former colonial power and our friends in the International Community. We, they will all speak out whether of course, people say, oh, what the hell, i mean, dont mix state laws or they do other things that will not change or see jim pain. But still, i think its much better what the International Community to, to speak out for us and to have no life at all. Stephen, there are many who are calling this effectively the end of the one country 2 systems in hong kong. Do you believe that is the case now and if so, what happens Going Forward . Well, i think when you diminish whats coming to the extent that elected officials in hong kong can be dismissed in beijing. When youve diminished or starts, where the chief executive has to even go to beijing for instructions on how to conduct the Economic Policy of tung co, the level of autonomy thats left to the Hong Kong Government is very small indeed. But i think there is a very important proviso. I mean, homecoming is coming to move very different place from the rest of the main that there is still, im speaking from hong kong. There is still a degree of liberty and uncle and there is on the main it certainly is being eroded, but i mean the differences between the 2 entities which were supposed to be kept under the one country 2 systems principle is being eroded this case, which is breathtaking, but there is still a difference to some extent. Gordon, from your perspective, where does the u. S. China relationship go in a Joe Biden Administration and do you believe things are poised to improve or will they continue to deteriorate . I think that certainly every new occupant in the white house gives china a grace period to try to develop cooperative relations. You know, every new president thinks that they can do better than the previous one. So there will be a period where the Biden Administration will try to cozy up to beijing. I dont actually think that it will work. You know, theres a fundamental difference. Chinas regime is committing crimes against humanity. Its stealing hundreds of billions of dollars of u. S. Intellectual property. Its challenging the u. S. And the Global Commons is attacking its neighbors. This is just not a relationship thats going to work, and indeed it should get worse, because we should not be tolerating chinas unacceptable behavior. Emily, you know, when it comes to these resignations, there are some analysts who say that mask or mass resignations actually removed democracy activists access to the Legislative Council. There are other analysts who say that had the opposition lawmakers stayed. They would have been perceived as lending legitimacy. To beijings new resolution and the dismissal of the 4 lawmakers. Did each of these paths have their own difficulties . Well, yes, of course. And there are people in hong kong with very different views. Even people who support the prodemocracy camp. And so it is a controversial decision, but if you look at the way things have developed, even if they 15 decided not to leave, i think they may be kicked out. Could be kicked out quite soon because they will continue to filibuster. Because they want to delay the process so that these terrible legislation on giving the right to vote to People Living in the greater bay area or this big reclamation of lentil island. They want to stop those things. Thats why they are filibustering. And also because the administration would not have dialogue with them. So if they continue with that behavior, even if they stayed on, im sure the administration and the pro beijing legislature will kick them out. So. So it is, i dont think they have much alternatives. And so i think that thing about it is theres a lot of disagreement and the way forward is to have engagement to have dialogue, but see him paying and the beijing regime just fear that no one would not talk to these people. And these people try to react like this, and they say ok, we just kill you. Ted. Thank you out. Steve in the Legislative Council will be left now with only probe aging politicians. What does that mean Going Forward . Is it just going to make it much easier for lawmakers to be able to pass laws that are favored by beijing . Oh yes, i mean obviously that is so, and i would just add suit. So what somebody has just said, i mean all this filibustering what have you would have delayed legislation going through, but there is the way the system has been built. There is an inbuilt majority for the production of care in the legislature. I dont actually think this is all about improving if you like the work of the legislature. I think this is about deal. It just amazing. Any form of opposition . And i think thats the Crucial Point here. Total intolerance, i mean, emily has just said theres no doubt that with the democrats, which is absolutely true, but it goes further than you know it, beijing is now saying you cant demonstrate on the streets. You cant take part in elections. If you write things in a newspaper, we dont like you will be arrested if its much more widespread. This is part of that process, very important parts of the process, but its part of the much bigger process of say, opposition in hong kong. So really it is no longer legal gordon, any guesses as to what we might see from Donald Trumps administration toward china until joe biden gets sworn in as president . Thats a great question. And i think that will see, you know, the Trump Administration continuing the policy issues of the last year and a half. And really he should do that, you know, largely because china has been attacking representative governance in hong kong and its snuffed it out. And so i think beijing now feels emboldened is going to go after the u. S. Even harder than it has in the past. Because youve got to remember that over the course of the election, chinas been attacking not only donald trump, but its also been attacking the form of americas representative governments. So theyve been attacking our democracy and now they feel they probably got more opportunity to do so. So, you know, i would think that both trump and President Biden are going to defend the american republic, and that means were going to see as you point out more friction. Emily, there is, of course, a growing generational divide between the older and younger members of the prodemocracy movement. There has been a tension between those generations thats been building for some time now. Is it possible to bridge that gap and if so, how is that done . Wealth course, were willing, i mean, when the democratic, willing to talk to people or egypt. So its not a question of us shunning ben and for those who dont want to talk to us, we cannot force them. And of course, my party does not support independence. And we do do not support a using violence to struggle but, but were willing to talk to them. And let me tell you at the beginning of next month, its my potties annual general meeting. And we will have elect, new leadership. And some of our very young members fighting to be elected as chair and vice chair of the party. So its good let these young people come forward. Maybe they can talk to the other young people better. And i have many mentees. I know a lot of young people, so i, well, i dont know, i mean, you seem to have the impression that it is a very, very big tick bite that we talk to each other all the time. But sometimes they like to criticise us and some of them like to replace us, which is of course ok, democracy is about competition. So if youre better than us will fade away. Stephen, let me, let me ask you the same question. Let me ask you about that divide between the younger members and the older members of the prodemocracy movement that generational gap can that be bridged. This is a very interesting topic, and there was a lot of impatience, particularly back last year at the beginning of the movement as a box of the younger demonstrators who thought that sufficient democrats, you know, not just been, not up to power. But what has happened, and i think this is happened much more recently, is there now all sharing a common fates . The front line protesters who were arrested last year during the height of the demonstrations. And now being joined in full, by the traditional, if you like, all of the democrats, theyre all in the same boat net. So that the, this divide and there was a divide to some extent, has been there and by the actions of the Hong Kong Government and its most embarrassing. They are putting everybody in the same camp now. And i dont think that there is a very big hasnt between the 2 groups, but you know, one thing is that the Younger Generation who were taking the lead on the streets have a tendency to want more violent action perhaps, or at least small participation on the streets rather than in Council Chambers a lot heavier. But you know, now that form of opposition has been shut off. But you ministrations so they themselves by their action. The force these 2 cats together. Its extraordinary irony. Gordon are there are officials in the u. S. Government or the Chinese Government that are concerned about how bad the relationship has gotten between the 2 countries . Are there steps by any members of the governments of either country to try to, make that relationship better . Well, just talking about the u. S. , you know, of course there is great concern about the relationship with china because things there is more friction. There are more disagreements, but i think people here are starting to understand, you know, just like stephen said about beijing uniting the 2 branches of the under and the older protesters in the prodemocracy forces, the same things happening in the u. S. China is diligent in my eyes and its friends here. And you have, for instance, the Henry Kissinger school, you know, they, they talk about the disaster that might occur. But were not driving this. Its china that striving this, you know, with regard to whats happening in china. God only knows, but the point is the jumping is absolutely determined to snuff out any opposition, just like he snuffed out any opposition in the Legislative Council. And really, are there any avenues remaining for legislators or residents to express dissent in hong kong at this stage . Well, as stephen just said, were not exactly like Mainland China yet. I mean, if we were, i dont think ill be having this conversation with you. And in the past 12 hours, 16 hours, ive spoken to quite a number of foreign journalists and also diplomats, i dont think this thing would be that possible in Mainland China. And i dont know. I mean people kept asking me when im going to be arrested. And, but i think that, you know, we just have to use, they do whatever space freedom that we have to continue to express ourselves. I will never allow myself to be intimidated to silence. Thats why im talking to you tomorrow. I get up at 6 to talk to the australians see, and i think there are people like that. But of course, at the end of the day you pay a price. And if you look around the world, there are so many people fighting for democracy for human rights, and theyre paying a much be a prize than we do. They have to dodge bullets, they get arrested, tortured in carry out. And right now were not as bad as that yet. Stephen a look to me like you were nodding along to some what emily was saying, did you want to add to to the point she was making . I would, i think that what is now have going to happen is a long period of passive resistance. I mean, the sort of thing you saw prior to the breakup of the soviet union at the end of the 1980 s. When you know you didnt see until the last moment, big demonstrations on the streets, but you saw all these minor but still alive, acts of resistance. Let me give you an example. Wendy cleese looked at big raid on the apple daily newspaper, the only mainstream newspaper which supports the democracy movement. The next day, people went out with bought shares of that company in their thousands, in the hundreds of thousands. They went out and bought the newspaper and they sat in prominent, he says, around unquote, reading the newspaper. It was an act of defiance. And i think what were going to see now is not learn scale demonstrations, but the movement will be kept alive by these sorts of things. How much even that will be cracked down on. Im not sure that may well also become a dangerous thing to do in future. Gordon does the u. S. Now expect to see other politicians or groups in hong kong being targeted . And if so, how quickly do you expect that to happen . Well, i dont know what u. S. Officials think, but im sure theyre not very optimistic about the direction of things because beijing has closed off all the political process through you know, in terms of what people may expect. I think this is an insurgency. And so venture, were going to see large scale demonstrations in hong kong. Were going to see the small scale resistance that stephen was just talking about. And this is going to be a contest that will go on for quite some time. But weve got to remember a siege and pig is actually determined to control on kong. Hes actually determined to put steven and emily in jail, if thats what it takes. And hell do that. I mean, theyre very brave right now. So, you know, i think u. S. Officials are extremely concerned whats going on and thats bipartisan, not just president trump, not just joe biden. Its across the political spectrum. All right, weve run out of time, so were going to have to leave the conversation there. Thanks so much to all our guests. Emily lau, gordon, chang, and stephen vines. And thank you too for watching. You can see the program again any time by visiting our website of 0 dot com. And for further discussion, go to our facebook page. Thats facebook dot com, forward slash a. J. Inside story. You can also join the conversation on twitter. Our handle is at a. J. Inside story. For me, mohammed and the whole team here in doha. I find out be the hero world needs, right . Washing in the 2nd bars of identity of exile, nephew council travels to the middle east to retrace his steps. 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