Transcripts For ALJAZ Counting The Cost 20240712

Ministry says it didnt fire towards azerbaijan fighting over the corner cutting back has been escalating for 3 weeks now these events privatise to just get of a 3 is in power after her arrival Judith Collins conceded defeat these are live pictures of her making her a rather victory speech around 75 percent of votes counted now turns labor party looks to have secured a majority of parliamentary seats shes been praised for the partys response to the coronavirus pandemic and last years mosque attack in christchurch but he said thailand of shut down major roads and public transport in central bangkok as antigovernment protesters returned to the streets for a 4th day demonstrators want new elections and reforms to the monarchy 30 chuang as the latest from bangkok. Were up here now in love around to the north where there are already several 1000 protesters there and fairly loud voice. There moving down towards the more shit area chanting out with for you the Prime Minister our tax money a reference to their demands for money keep on holding up the 3. 00 finger salute and i think its going to very clearly that they have outfoxed the police once again you have effectively shut down the whole applying for riot police in chile have fired tear gas and water cannon after rallies to modern School Social change turn violent demonstrations came ahead of the anniversary of last years processed some French Police say a teacher has been beheaded in a suburb north west in paris earlier this month the teacher had shown pupils cartoons from the sort of a satirical magazine charlie abdo depicting the prophet mohammed those are the headlines more news feed here on syria after counting the cost next. I want you to our nations going to do defeat is terrible china viruses we call it there is no place for hate in america well im feeling great about your word is not a political statement its a scientific recommendation the final president ial t. V. Debate live on aljazeera. Hello im come on santa maria this is counting the cost on aljazeera your weekly look at the world of business in economics this week the price of doing business with china they call it wolf diplomacy negotiating with force sanctions tariffs and outright bans on foreign imports its how china attempts to coerce other nations to its way of thinking and then there is the internal struggle with the directive to slash poverty beijing is forcing tibetan farm laborers into reeducation camps well find out how you can tell if the goods you buy are the result of forced Chinese Labor and were looking at better routes as well where the president s clinging to power with the support of russia but at what cost will moscow simply end up owning more of the better russian economy. You think trade was on this one that comes to mind isnt the u. S. And china president brash transactional data lets yielded success and by equal measure all sorts of self harm but the general push has been to curtail chinas economic rise and that actually earned it some sympathy to start with but its the way that beijing has pushed back that hasnt wolf warrior diplomacy punishment diplomacy coercive commercial diplomacy call it what you like a number of nations have been on the receiving end of some finley veiled warnings and in some cases economic punishment. Lets start with germany for example china banned the imports of german pork just a few days before president xi jinping was about to discuss trade and investment with Angela Merkel beijing says it was to protect its industry off to germany reported its 1st case of african swine fever but for many it was a bargaining chip really against europes demand for better access to chinas market before those talks in september chinas foreign minister huang late he was touring european capitals hoping to counter the calls from the u. S. Secretary saying my pompei o fern alliance of sorts of western countries against china but it didnt work when you want to check delegation that they would quote pay a heavy price for travelling to taiwan which china claims as its territory and well you can imagine how well that went down wang was also roundly criticized by top diplomats in other European Countries he faced demands for china to respect human rights of protesters in hong kong and to explain why millions of people have been detained in these socalled reeducation camps or shin jang and more in chinas part of the world australia taken a hit to Prime Minister Scott Morrison called for an investigation into the origins and the handling of the corona virus that sent china relations to a new low china immediately banned astray and beef imports it launched investigations into bali and why it even warned its citizens not to travel to australia at this point you have to say the word diplomacy is starting to look entirely misplaced. And all of this hasnt gone unnoticed earlier this month the secretary sent my pompei and met his counterparts from australia india and japan socalled quad meeting seen as a front against an increasingly assertive china were going to go to australia for our 1st guest him harcourt the j w neville fellow in economics at the university of New South Wales in sydney also was the chief economist of the strain trade commission for over a decade worked for the reserve bank as well so youre perfectly qualified to take us through all of this and i i will focus more on australia in a moment but lets start broad brush here this and im using the word very loosely here diplomacy track that china is taking at the moment why such an assertive track i mean its its the type of thing which you just feel can only sort of end in in trouble well i think youre i dont think its a huge embarrassment. To the fact that they mishandled the Current Situation in. A little spread to iran and italy and all the rest of the world d and so i think theres a. Great feeling of embarrassment that occurred and the best form of defense is attack and so theyve been d doing this was diplomacy attacking everyone basically not wanting to be on the on the back thought because of the way that the layout covert to spirit or move on to the rest of china the rest d of the world ok so lets flip it around there and do bit of devils advocacy here china was and im not going to say who started what here but as come under constant attack from particularly donald trump over the socalled trade war why wouldnt fight back when some wise its been doing most of the fighting the straight impress that china is picking australia that china has disputes with d with with france with the Czech Republic with brazil with donald trump with the you will see. Career which it ends with it now the list goes on it with all this is on a country they dont have in a fight with so to say just in terms of trump China Support china versus the rest of the world in some ways perhaps donald trump is doing a lot of the fighting for d d the rest of us certainly i think people in japan and korea and brazil d the you didnt mind trump going pretty on when he became president given whats happened ok lets focus back in on china then what about the idea of debt diplomacy effective well maybe not now its starting to unravel certainly the d nation is close to a strong opinion some of the pacific nations some in africa realize that a lot of these lines come with a string attached in terms of somebody in a futile back on it and of course. In some ways given quite low Interest Rates there are you know possibilities to borrow reasonably cheap clothes so you dont have to tie yourself to china this early or d anyone else and i think some other countries that were going up to this and theyre not doing the same. Slightly for. The lines that d they were d looking for or when oh when the warning signs thats when the tell me about our strength his relationship with china then i. Little anecdote here but worked and lived in australia in the early 2000 and i remember ben a great relationship that they had then it was building up to the beijing olympics all of those Australian Resources iron or it was all going to china it was great for both countries what happened. If you were in the great pain to have this moment which it was all ready hunky dory look at. The 2 things one is. That this is are 2 schools of thought in a strike here on polar d opposites theres the Security Community really worry about defense and cybersecurity and those sorts of issues and this sort of pushing for a strange or diverse d life in china if youre on a play which would be very difficult even with very large trading partners like asean and ear and so on and then there is a very if you were picked up when you were struggling at the very pro China Business lobby living by hundreds of Mining Companies casinos those types of companies with strong interests with china and there they are sort of the 2nd great corners post blue corner and it did this time with a strong government whatever you do dont upset china so just concede on everything and. In the middle is you know a group of commentators and thats the government so that says well theyre very important economic partner and were good friends of chinas but of course friends can have disagreements then its one thing having a strong economic relationship but you really dont want to ference in your universities or your political system you dont need to end all nations the world you need you have a plurality of relationships you try to relationship. Cultural diplomacy and other types of parts that i know have to coincide what do you make of and i mention this just in passing before this socalled quad group of countries of which australia is one of them do you think that can be effective i mean there are other groups out there i think of like brics and the nonaligned movement of things and that which is sort of the the anti establishment want it can that be effective or is that again just well lets get a gang together to fight against china look i think organizations like i pick and the courts and various other other organizers. The ships in the Transpacific Partnership for instance was set up to get as d many body letter place together so you dont have a world of 2 or 3 big crowds so i think theres d some rational rational thinking behind it in this case its definitely to contain the chinas influence particularly france wise particularly the South China Sea particularly in the pacific and our thing for a long time india and japan fear of little bit left out and they have leadership roles to play and i think probably when you were astride a week or the asia pacific would have been calling at the top of it for quite some time because of the influence of internet asia and of course india to say that d you know the region is a lot more d than what we think so so i think thats been part of the play i think the quite a bit mind is it is shared values as well as some defense ties it hasnt had much Economic Impact yet at the moment its mainly shaped their news democratic and defense type issues discussed tim harper joining us from sydney pleasure talking to you thank you. But you did. So the china from a domestic level now president xi is racing to eradicate extreme rural poverty before the 100th anniversary of the communist party next year which sounds like a pretty noble act doesnt it if you look behind the curtain things are a bit different in particular in parts of the country where foreigners are barred from going to according to reuters the tibetan rural laborers are being forced off the land and into recently built military style Training Centers this will sound very familiar wanted especially to the millions of we goes who have been sent to socalled reeducation camps now into bed over half a 1000000 people or 15 percent of the population have been sent through the program in the 1st 7 months of this year many end up in low paid work including textile manufacturing construction and agriculture now in similar mass transfers of the way good people these workers were discovered in the supply chains of 83. 00 Global Brands according to a report released by the astray in Strategic Policy institute but despite the International Criticism china continues to expand its indoctrination camps in the Western Region of jang now the trumpet ministration has sanctioned the makers of apparel cotton computers and Hair Products in the province which it accused of using slave labor that is on top of the sanctions on officials responsible for the policy of imprisoning up to 2000000 muslim minorities were back to australia now for a 2nd guest in melbourne is james label he is an associate professor and head of department at the Tribe University and an expert on ethnic policy and conflict in contemporary china great to have you with us james as i pointed out there not a lot of us will get any sort of insight into a region like to bet but i believe you and your colleagues have been able to with satellite imagery what what did it show up for you. Yeah well as you can probably appreciate its very difficult now to travel. In tibet particularly if youre. Concerned about human rights issues and you want to dig into it myself and other researchers dont feel safe in going there anymore chinese authorities of consistently surveilled harassed foreign journalists as and researchers and so weve tried to look at a range of open Source Methodology is that allow us to kind of peer into the region to try to piece together the puzzle whats happening there and certainly satellite imagery is a great tool it allowed us at a speed to track the rapid expansion of chinas carful system for readers and other ethnic minorities that are viewed by the Chinese State as untrustworthy and also allowed us to look at the destruction of important we here in islamic cultural sites like mosques shrines and cemeteries so lets look at the i guess economic side of this and the fact that people are being put into and you could call it slave labor you can call it would if you want but it is hard work it is unpaid and its all happening basically right in front of our eyes. Him most certainly i mean the Chinese State in the eyes of the Chinese State this is about Poverty Alleviation its about. Uplifting the quality of the workforce and cian jiang its about bringing moderna ji to the far reaches of china but this is all done a great cost individuals who are placed within these work transfer programs need to ensure the dont speak their native language but rather a profession in Mandarin Chinese they need to no longer practice their traditional cultural practices nor abide by islamic principles many of them had grown up with so there is a process of social reengineering that is securing through these labor transfer programs about disciplining its about creating a at work force that is kind of conversant in honde defined norms and difficult to stop as well isnt it we were just speaking to a previous guest and sydney about chinas style of diplomacy these days which is to attack basically its not really going to probably listen to much criticism over this is it. It is difficult but i dont think we can give up i think its really important. That we as a Global Community speak out this is you know one of the most egregious human rights abuses of modern time i do think that child is sensitive to International Pressure weve seen some encouraging news the most recent sitting of the United Nations where more countries have come forward to criticize china about its human rights abuses inching junge in tibet and weve seen a kind of dropping off of some support of the Chinese Government position in some places and weve seen sanctions as well i mentioned those brought in by President Trump on the on the industry. Was in 2 minds about whether sanctions can really work if they are targeted yes maybe in this case what do you think well i think you know sanctions have their place and i think theyre important part of the pressure that we bring to bear i mean you know rhetoric alone is not enough we need to try to hit the Chinese Communist party in its you know financial back pocket. But the same time we need to make sure that this is not seen as something thats coming from a handful of liberal western democratic countries we need to build a Global Coalition of countries that are concerned about this issue and hopefully can try to change chinas behavior i mean its really important to remember that you know china has a great liberal cosmopolitan tradition and you know we go back to the tang dynasty to the ching dynasty you know i mean. China xi jinping has taken china down a road that i think is it is very dangerous but its not the only road and its you know its possible that china could could reverse its course. Away from the politics and the economics im interested in the sort of well actually the end products textiles clothing computers all these sorts of things if someone is so surely conscious about this and doesnt want to be buying these sorts of products which may have come through the system is there a way to to to find that out you know i think its such an important issue to kind of raise consciousness and empower consumers to understand where their goods come from and under which condition they are manufactured. The you know when you really need a kind of Global Movement to encourage people to understand where there might be human rights abuses within the Global Supply chain and to put pressure on you know Major International companies that are making you know billions of if not you know multibillions worth of profits off you know supplying the world with you know cheap consumer goods and i think of consumers or reveal you know aware of some of these abuses they might think twice and they might try to source more sustainable ethical sources James Leopold from the Tribe University in melbourne great talking to you thanks for joining us. Pleasure nice to be with you finally this week bellaver send the economic angle to the countrys disputed election and the mass protests and right now president Alexander Lukashenko 26 year dictatorship has won a temporary reprieve just how temporary that is depends a lot on whether russia will continue to bail him out this is what you need to know about the belarus economy right now according to reuters russias support has been worth around 12 percent of the economy every year most of that supports come in the form of cheap oil which bill aris processes and then sells on to europe earning around 13000000000. 00 a year russia plans to slash its subsidies gradually by 2024 but the better russian ruble will thats fallen 30 percent against the euro since the beginning of the year better rhesus currency reserves of tang to 4300000000. 00 which means it has only enough money to import goods for about a month and a half also has lost by a lot that was in 2011 it remains bell ariss biggest creditor owning 38 percent of the countrys debt and the cost of that bailout well bellerose had to give up control of its gas company and pipeline it also had to hand over 42. 00 and a half percent of the maziar or oil refinery to the Russian Oil Company rosneft so kind of what you describe as shall we say a bit of a one sided relationship lets talk about it now with that you have thats over who is in london a senior economist with Oxford Economics and its lovely to have you with us bela reuss will need in all likelihood some more help is russia willing to come to the party there. Are many good bellows is facing a likelihood of a severe balance of payments crisis you mentioned reserves and nearly nothing and the currency tanking it makes it more difficult for valeries to. Balance of payments that. Versus being the main supports for the refinance really both. That phrase and or subsidies so we need discerning again but for us or for health. Thats nothing new what is new is best now forcing from a position of weakness particularly the president ial administration. And me but russia will be pressing for other for their political and economic integration in return for this. You made the point there about the currency reserves and the currency depreciation just take me through that a little bit more about how much of an economic threat that put end up being to benares the like me goal of the balance of payments. The unfounded doubt for me about 3000000000 dollars this year for example with reserves just over the amount the country cannot afford to spend all of this or the reserve leaving the gap it needs some liquidity are going to quickly see that it doesnt help or using a price we will see another 3 months at least 3 months or. So the money that it doesnt have any real need for the other loans from russia basically i mean russia is already even one and a half 1000000000. Dollars loan and that helps her but that essentially helps those who think that through russia there will be other implications why the current account deficit and nobody else is lending at the moment about its capital from the credit crisis or. Capital markets it doesnt want money from the i. M. F. So. Resolutely only for so russia could be the only source it would presumably want something in return at some point but as you said better russia. Better recent sorry is in such a position of weakness right now what even just better is really have to offer to russia in return so basically what whats at stake is a socalled union state integration with anything in state it has existed on paper since i think 9 but s. Russia paying rent capable to providing generous subsidies to beller is. Due to its only economic difficulties a poem. It became more costly for us to support both of us and for him. Yep it was the deep integration in a small sum basis who are it can and will one government one Parliament One currency. Harmonization of town and trade legislation and even that russia is 80 times bigger as and belarus that means that were the quiet firm that was laying on russia firm and essentially losing parts of its parts of its sovereignty. Which is why the consensus has resisted this coercion and started flirting with the where. But now. As a sense you know even the position of weakness in her will probably have to be more flexible these negotiations are pretty much behind d closed doors at the moment and probably grievances want and we shall see only what. Was the result grouping. Obviously we focus on president look at shanghai because he is still the president im interested in the relations which the better russian opposition the likes of on a to going to sky has with other parts of the world if it were to somehow be that that she was in charge of that there was a change in leadership there would that put bill recent a better position open to more markets. I mean its a very good question im in belarus in a longer term than me diversification i mean economy. I mean if you are always dependent on subsidy from somebody that means that. You remain subject to you know vulnerable to pressure. From the fox i mean over the long term it does need service station but if it were. To read because i mean. It would work in kernels in. The opposition in prisons come. Next will face the same choice the bear who just went oh being withdrawn from those rushing up to the plate wont be easy choices will they be raised to. Neal. Its a question i mean they might be more friendly relations with the west more amenable. Mouth. And that might help diversify breads. Fascinating contrasts. So theyre joining us from london today thank you for your time thank you very much. And that is where well leave you this week but i want to know what you think and what you want to see on the show in the future as well tweet or d. M. Me at age 8 i feel tweeting use the hashtag a j c d c if a male is more your thing counting the cost of aljazeera top net. And has more for you online as well about 0 dot com slash c t so you have to take you straight to our page which has all our previous episodes including this one for you to catch up on whenever youd like. But that is it for this edition of count in the santa maria from the whole team thanks for joining us the news on aljazeera is now. Global pandemic. Family comes 1st. For every American Health care has never been more important. Because the new disease does not favor republicans over democrats bridge over poor or black over white. America decides how to care for a nation. Extensive coverage of the us elections. On aljazeera. The oppression of an ethnic minority and me in my bag many dennings they intend was to make sure that rangers would no longer entitled to either a basic rights or citizenship rights. Aljazeera explores the history and motives behind the systematic persecution of their a him and me and my. Exile. On al jazeera. 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