Transcripts For ALJAZ Inside Story 20240712

We understand that the emergency session of parliament will be held tomorrow to do exactly that its expected that the state of emergency will be voted for and that emergency session will also include discussions of all the Prime Minister candidates talks are getting underway in moscow between the foreign minister as a foreign media and as a base its the latest effort to end the ongoing conflict over the disputed region of nagornokarabakh armenias leaders says he is ready to resume peace talks but the as a repressive and seems to be backing a military solution to the conflict for now. Spain has declared a state of emergency in madrid as the region deals with a resurgence in corona virus cases the move which will last 2 weeks have been opposed by regional authorities who say it will hurt the economy nearly 5000000 people will be impacted and italy has recorded more than 5000 new infections in 24 hours its the 1st time since march it has the 2nd highest death toll in the region with more than 36000 fatalities the United Nations World Food Program has won the 2020 Nobel Peace Prize for its efforts to combat hunger and Food Insecurity around the globe the u. N. Agency says its work in providing food and supplies during the current hour is pandemic had gone over and above the call of duty so no trumps they say its now unlikely that he will hold any Campaign Rallies before monday because of logistics the us president had earlier said he wanted to hold a rally in florida on saturday his doctor says he has now completed his course of treatment for a coronavirus and that it will be safe for him to resume public engagements those are the headlines on aljazeera more news at the top of the hour after inside story. 2 u. S. Senators call for sanctions on turkey as tensions rise between uncle and his partners in the nato military alliance is an organization created to fight the cold war able to cope with its members ambitions in the 21st century this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program. Turkey has been part of nato since 1958 for decades its membership was seen as a stabilizing force one that anchored it in the western world and also helped cool tensions with neighboring greece but 21st century turkey is a more assertive power it has interests in both the middle east and central asia and those may not sit comfortably with its role in the North Atlantic Alliance at the center of these tensions as sophisticated russian antiaircraft defenses and the s 400. 00 turkey bought it last year despite warnings that could affect its nato membership because of that purchase turkey was expelled from a dos program to build a fighter jet the f. 35 designed for use throughout the alliance this week 2 u. S. Senators a republican and a democrat said the state department a letter demanding sanctions on turkey has been testing the s 400 but has not fully activated it that demand was prompted by reports that turkey used the radar to track Greek Fighter Jets during a naval exercise in the Eastern Mediterranean last week. All of which begs the question what do turkey and nato want from each other and can those interests be reconciled. All right lets bring in our guests from washington a basswood a Robert Hunter former United States ambassador to nato and from some time there spain is fabrice pati a Senior Defense fellow at the International Institute of strategic studies and former director of policy planning for nato and from ancora yousif of the International Security expert and a retired colonel in the Turkish Armed forces thank you all for joining us robert let me start with you you have 2 u. S. Senators now who are calling on the trumpet ministration to sanction turkey amid these reports do you believe that is now going to happen oh no i dont. Particularly because to trumpet ministration has good relations with turkey its important as it United States to a good relations with turkey and with greece and other countries in the region i think in part its because we have an election coming up there is a greek vote there is concern too to try to keep the greeks on board and right now the confrontation if thats the right word between creation turkey and Eastern Mediterranean is a more dominant question then what may or may not have happened with the russian has 400 missile and a Missile System that was used or may not have been used by turkey recently use of what does all this do to turkeys relationship with both the u. S. And with nato in the short term and the long term. Ok the turkish relation with nato and the turkish relation with the United States is all over the 2 different questions let me take a look at to the turkish relation between nato turkey absolutely consider nato as a very useful and moment of the most important platform you know order to fight the good then security challenges that in 20 percent sure it is foreseen to the nato members mother lost for example fighting against terrorism fighting against power it immigration and lots of issues that become here so what is are all of the turkey for contributing for disney of security challenges turkey is fighting against terrorism together with the United States in afghanistan in bosnia in iraq in syria in many different parts of the world saw in terms of turkish nato relations turkey is still pulling all it is duty is more than enough but many take a look at United States on turkish soil nations there are 2 nations problems that are to be result being night stay centered the 1st issue is that fighting against terrorism that turkey believes that the United States is evil it relation to me like b. G. Forces it is a soft branch off that peak it terrorist Organization Also the United States speak of nice as a terrorist organization and turkey also try to proves that they are getting the mavericks off the terrorist from the same poorly. This isnt the system one of the most important issues that should be a result the United States the 2nd issue is it who at town failed cool at town that turkey believes that the failed quit counts and all the previous square times interlinked with the United States and United States. Should change they are region that they cannot. Support the coup at counters that by providing. Allegations. Unites its debts should be a result United States result that you should be greece united not ikeas together with the Clinton Administration and also United States also all the problems we spain you know that spain also want to buy and use if they will who at them sent the precious the us to fight and i dont mean to interrupt its just that im going to come back to some of this in a bit i want to get a question in to fabrice there for bruce i want to try to take a step back for a moment could you explain to our viewers what exactly the s. 400 system does and why it causes this level of concern right now. Well basically it brings a highly sophisticated russian refinery system into turkeys Territorial Defense and the problem here is that since 2010 nato is building a nato wide and timi size system must be reliant on the american patry out systems. And then the problem is if you inject in the middle that basically a russian made and hockey russian operated because we should not forget that it s 400 requires or sort of training and advising by Russian Special east to Turkish Forces and if you inject such a system in the middle of a nato entity size system then you have a real problem of both Technology Got compatibility but also politico signal here is especially when nato since 2014 when russia invaded ukraine decided to progressively cut off some of its allies especially from Central Europe which until recently were still dependent on russian made Weapons Systems so i think this is where are these a big red line which you know the ones turkey has crossed and i would use it really found us there hunter i think there is increasingly a bipartisan support in washington to go towards some form of sanctions on unturned keep an sure Vice President biden be elected i would not be surprised if sanctions become something much more realistic and much more tangible than it is now robert i think it your reaction to what for various was saying and then if we could delve into that i mean how much does the u. S. Turkey relationship change if joe biden is elected president. Well let me answer that 1st met some other things its too early to tell what a President Joe Biden would do he is not president yet we only have one president at a time he says certain things are asked to say certain things i meant ive been in a president ial campaigns you say things in a campaign that might help get your votes then when you become president you look at things fresh the fact is the United States continues have very deep interest in this part of the world in that lovano with that with israel and lebanon with regard to whats happening in turkey with regard to whats happening in iraq and in syria and turkey is very much in the middle of that as potentially an asset for the west i mean airto on was in washed you know not so long hero as a renewed the american turkish cooperation on terrorism admittedly there is a fault line as weve already heard that the United States has been looking to kurds to help out in in syria and iraq particularly against the socalled Islamic State which is still there even though its a court to minor at this point theres also the need just for the United States as a leading power in nato to take the lead in sorting out this new confrontation between greece and turkey and working with nato so i would say its a little premature to say using sanctions but theres going to have to be no matter who is the u. S. President and active role in working with all the countries with the u. S. And with the as a Nato Alliance to try to keep this situation under control now it is true that the turkish integration of the s 400 is a major technical and political problem for the United States and others and. And it was a mistake i think for her to want to do that how that gets here and who is going to be a significant problem for the next problem for the next u. S. President yousif under president ever to want turkey has much wider ambitions in the middle east and in central asia than it had during the cold war are those compatible with turkeys traditional role in nato. Ok i want to ask a couple of questions before i ask you your last question 1st of all turkey bowl thats 400 a good fancy size system off the United States and it used to sell the patriot side down system not turkey not the dollar off European Countries you just broke youll see a different system such as transcend italy euro some Defense System and in the last had a phone call in b. In micron and started on mr add on repeat took his heel that he wants to buy if france you assign me style Defense System you know that the key player depends secure but again france and italy are repeals to sell he is the parent systems of 30 and also United States Congress Also for more than 50 years if used to sell the petty beside the found systems so who can tell me that the Turkish Defense me science is a Defense System we need to secure turkey cannot give it is a would be found security to the mercy of all and cathy batteries or patrick but there is you just coming from germany it now that small discussion they are falling back down so that is unacceptable saw 30 is forced by nato countries and by best buy United States to buy f. For honduras use them even mr trump in all sec i mean clearly stated that turkey is forced to buy its 400 system you not read or a United States and the best in this but no i want to sell turkey to air defense missiles as this is the 1st issue that should be understood at the technically shook to appeal to built up a Technical Committee and the investigate if 400 systems down transpired they thought by mail for a secret system to the russia and no one except that yes because this is impossible in the over the baltic sea over the story and they are spaced as 400 or so are working together in nato Aircraft Systems dog. This is another issue thats come to your question that turkey does not have any ambitions but 30 is council they think this power both inside the country and also developing a structure and trying to new. Mediaeval functioning defense in the us you can cite it so cortices in turkey is following it is all on gender like france that like the other countries in it so no one should be blaming turkey because turkey is assertiveness inside the middle east for example lets take a look at the turkish policy inside you did more than 4000000 people is needed inside their rations forced last 4 and half 1000000 people all over the borders of turkey most people believe directly go to the nato council news and turkey was the only constant it who fought together to be the iranian michels all together be it against Russian Forces and also the s. S. Regime not of the nato countries cannot came and help look turkey it but if turkey is safe ok i dont care about you or stan why border i all over the hospital and all 1000000 we lost the economy will be 6000000 and i will open the door for support to europe that all of a sudden all the European Countries know theres a that will be again the 30 years of years of im going to have to interrupt you just because ive got to get more questions into some of the other guests here because you answered a couple of questions there thank you for brees it looks like you want to jump in go ahead well i just would like to get the record straight out 1st on the entire n. T. Myside assistance its not accurate to say that neither france or the u. S. Wanted to send their systems they were actually beating for sending those systems to turkey there was even a chinese firm beating for that and the reality is for the past 10 years and cairo has been has been basically hedging and playing with different or 1st and depend. On the political when at some point it was actually there were they say us about the chasing the chinese system which also drew quite heavy criticism from the nato allies and the bottom line was it is true that the us system does not give turkey that much access to the intellectual corporates into the technology that is using it but not of those the s 400. 00 the reality is the president there do i made a deal with president putin because he had to make a deal you have to make peace with president putin and its for good was the way to get there so i think its important to get that record straight and the 7 point that the previous speaker raised the argument to say that turkey is expanding regionally because its improved by france and by others as well i think is a big you know iraq i think turkey is being ambitious and in some cases aggressive regional eat because theys a vacuum especially from the un the United States has been partly trying to change from them quite amused and because days of political and economic urgency in turkey for president and a lot went domestically hes weaker both economically and politically so hes basically doing a pretty which is to go abroad and full military adventures of well i think its important to get that weve got straighter said all right robert i saw you nodding along so i want to see if you had a response to what fabrice were saying but i also want to ask you about the fact that you know this this past summer theres been significant tensions between greece and turkey over territory in the Eastern Mediterranean and over cyprus during the cold war both countries membership in nato help contain that sort of thing can nato still play that kind of role today. Well i personally when i was at nato tried to help sort out what was going on between greece and turkey the nato secretary general has made it do it as a representative of the superpower and it was successful both countries actually do need some outside power to help them deal with their own domestic opinion their own domestic interests in this part of the world and it has been complicated now by the oil and gas discoveries in the Eastern Mediterranean where the territorial waters on has a lot of the Sea Convention do overlap theres no there there are individual treaties there but they if there is no clarity thats one thing another thing is that. Clearly the United States and france in this case where they like to sell to terribly western air Defense Systems it would simplify matters certainly at a time when there is a confrontation with mr putins russia it is not in my judgment a good card for mr erdogan to be playing right now 3rd of course is that turkey for whatever reasons its a sovereign country is now very ambitious its ambitious certainly and regard to syria in regard to iraq which is so on is from tears but also throughout central asia and the new American Administration is going to have to do if fundamental review u. S. Interests and nato interest well in this part of the world and become far more active not retrenching from this area thats frankly politically and strategically i think impossible for the United States to do as a superpower and a major element of that get the ohioans and get the greeks and turks together and to sort out try sorting out all of the. Issues including whats happening with syria and iran it cant be seen as individual bits and pieces it requires american strategic leadership use of where what do you see happening now with the u. S. Turkish relationship and im going to ask you what i asked robert earlier as well how does the relationship change if joe biden were to win the presidency in the United States. Let me answer from their last question joe biden is be reactor again these 2 problems i mean the relation between the white b. G. Force and United States and the crew plotters failed coup plotters many inside the United States may be the major problems a gain from the perspective ought to turkey if those 2 problems can be a result of peaceful manner i do believe that the turkish United States relations can be a game in the air like in the us previous years but let me say you that the United States and search the nations is not. Because so sure because of the terrorist organization i would like to conquer remind all the guests that turkey is hosting 250000 traditionally people who s. K. From the culture of the y. P. G. Forces mass commie spain there is hosting refugees inside this country our United States none 00 and let me remind you also that than Saddam Hussein if the chemical weapons in 1000 night or one beach must salt to the rock by divestment contraries turkey was the only country often it is water still more than 1000000 innocent people and today turkey bill do it we thought any hesitation i gave because we have no problem with traditionally people who is living inside syria and inside where i saw these 2 problems should be a result either be a drop an add on if there be being by going on turkey this is the 1st issue the 2nd issue that you and i have asked for the turkish ambitions i can again repeat that turkey is together and support the core values so the nato and the rest who are here spiking against their russian aggression inside ukraine do you see any spain intervention to do you create but turkey you spirit working with the Ukrainian Government against the russian aggression and. A russian expansion inside ukraine by a real vaiko on their means but there is a cliche that everyone is labeling add on be just collaborating with mr putin who invited mr putin to libya the french isnt nato member and the southern flank of the nato countries inside the europe such as spain italy and france are to that youre because russia is trying to operate enable base and they are basing site libya and again turkey is the only country who of course of the russian aggression and russian expansion in libya be shouldnt talk cliches and the last issue is that greece is using s. 300. 00 russian myside to pay our Defense Systems to any 20 years and i personally have been in the street i learned as a nation i know its there in the state of baghdad heading to great that system to the nato and the same turkey of course to been a thought lets move up the technical on the i mean take possible the assistance of the nato if it is not possible be able operate it as a sole system and again there may check if it is transparent the nato system or not from my point of course that the be on the problem that turkey is already under 400. 00 systems is that. They are spirited will be lost in this area turkey buys as 400 percent or whatever but the problem will be over the next couple of years because i dont believe that. Will make its own able to finance system it is all intellectual capacity. Fabrice let me ask you theres there are a lot of analysts whove suggested that these tensions between the u. S. And turkey and that theyre not just due to the threat from the s 400 system but its also about how the u. S. Uses nato as a vehicle to sell weapons to other nato Member States and that the u. S. Is angry about nato members getting weapons elsewhere do you think that is true. I feed it is true that the alliance hes also i would say a broader industrial compact of obviously u. S. Defense companies but also European Companies so they send them into that but i dont think thats the reason why the u. S. Has sent turkish relationships as such a lot now i think the reality core of the matter is mostly syria because basically the u. S. And turkey have bee most of the doing most of the syrian conflict at all and with each other they have been pursuing sometimes opposite interests especially in the us support of the Kurdish Forces which from ankara spawn of you i consider us part of a terrorist organisation so i think this is more where where the coralies but just to respond to to yousef i think it needs to again the recall needs to be kind of clarified and it is true that greece doesnt parades this 300 and the fences them but they only use it for day or defense and they also use and they have also put chase petrea sistan which is what they used to actually contribute to the nato air defenses them so here its not correct to say that the greek russian and defenses that is being probed in the nato system because thats not how its a pretty you bet but just to finish here im involved in point of nato as you know nato doesnt like to have one ally that stand out and that brings some issues but nato is even less comfortable at least 2 allies being at odds with each other and here you have even more than 2 because you have greece and turkey who are currently you know its going to 80 and you know dangerous i would say gunboat diplomacy in eastern maybe a time and but you also have problems there to greeces side and you also have the United States which is kind of feebly fear and. Oddly you know made a lot of that and full nato politically disease extremely corrosive because nato is called for example joined extent to get an external not very surreys but when he has to do it we adore stories which on the east side he gets politically much more complicated all right were going to have to leave it there weve run out of time thanks so much to our guests Robert Hunter fabrice and us of. And thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a. J. Inside story from a mom and the whole team here by phone. 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