President s promise america 1st policy triggered a trade war that morphed into a technological war continues on al jazeera. Is china backing up its growing power with economic and Political Coalition thats an accusation being leveled in australia europe and washington so is there a line between acting like a great power and taking things too far this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program i mean ron can i just rent bide your time that famous phrase from chinas communist leader Deng Xiaoping governed its Foreign Policy for decades but not anymore and its current president xi jinping beijing has become an active some would say aggressive player on the global stage when china banned pork imports from germany the official reason was african swine fever but it was also seen as a warning to the German Government to not join u. S. Pressure on china australias products were also blocked after the fish was there called for an investigation into beijings handling of the corona virus and none of this is new namely a year ago u. S. Secretary of state mike pompei accused china of using coercion as a state craft tall beijings Foreign Ministry replied. China stands upright with on no we never strong arm others never seek supremacy never withdraw from commitments never bully others and never complain the word coercion has nothing to do with china but the americans are the only ones who think china is throwing its weight around australias Strategic Policy institute has recorded 152 cases of what it calls beijings coercive diplomacy the incident stretched back a decade and took place in 27 countries but theyve escalated sharply in the last 3 years the report says china has targeted countries in Europe North America and east asia and that what it calls punishment measures include trade sanctions tourism and travel bans and arbitrary detention these aim to force governments to change policies towards what china considers as National Core interests that includes territorial claims why weighs 5 g. Technology and the treatment of we and the handling of the cove in 1000. 00 pandemic. I. Lets bring in our guests in beijing. China based political analyst and Economic Development consultant in brussels to reason fallen director of the center of a russia europe asia studies and in Los Angeles Christopher balding a professor of Fulbright University vietnam and a specialist on chinas economy and markets a warm welcome d to you all lets begin beijing when the u. S. Does diplomacy its often called carrot and stick diplomacy seemingly when china does diplomacy its called coercive its called punishment and its called aggressive what do you make of that. Well i mean theres a real kind of extensional issue going on between the u. S. And china quite frankly the u. S. Is convinced that its system is the perfect system that it the system that the rest of the world should use so its not always explainable exactly why china is succeeding since it doesnt follow the u. S. Model so this is the kind of existential angsty that goes on there therefore anything that china does even if the u. S. Does it is somehow wrong so this is one of the things that kind of confronts them in terms of the expansion of china its simply a factor of the kind of Economic Growth and that brings them into production with neighbors. South korea japan india etc simply because it is now the number one trade partner for over 100 countries so these things happen its part of time but its not easy the question is how will be solved well lets put that question to theresa fall and how will it be sold and is china lets be honest is china using is diplomacy to punish people or is it doing well great powers day. Well iran machiavelli advised leaders that it was better to be feared than to be loved and beijings punishment upon miltie seems to be following that advice as be documented research over a 10 year period which recorded 152 cases of course of diplomacy effecting 27 countries as well as here in the European Union so weve seen a sharp escalation in these tactics during covert 1000 it hasnt been put on hold in fact its actually accelerated so weve seen of course wolf where youre diplomats but why we think its accelerated i think its because of the combination that the Chinese Communist partys impression is that theyre winning and a fleeting window of opportunity remains and that the c. C. P. Believes that its closing more rapidly so they really need to. Increase the pressure so what weve seen is an intensification of aggression by the Chinese Communist party. In competition with many countries they feel that this is their opportunity so i mentioned earlier the wolf where doc diplomats mostly focus in europe and the u. S. Soldiers bludgeoned indian soldiers to death in the himalayan frontier you see it with the repression of freedom in hong kong increased aggression in South China Sea East China Sea threats toward taiwan and cultural genocide in jinja so the issue now is that we look at an economic landscape was covering 1000 looks pretty bad most people call it a recession are some even call it a depression so this this desire to decouple from china almost seems very difficult to do during these difficult Economic Times so now we see this kind of Charm Offensive mix with this you mentioned earlier carrots and sticks that we see with china they dont seem to care anymore what europeans especially think of them so thats been a really rough awakening for the europeans and we just recently had the e. U. China summit and it was very clear to them that the less they told the line they wouldnt get their bilateral investment treaty so. Some have characterized it as sounding like a line from the godfather you get. Nice Industrial Base there germany it would be a pity if anything happened to it if you dont embrace chloe for example. What do you think whats your response to that well i think if you started looking at the beginning of trumps term youd find there are more than 157. 00 x. But russians its fine for us to say that china is the only one doing this or try to portray it that way and you can certainly have the narrative my colleague has put out there but the fact is its the will for your diplomacy did not work and thats why youre not seeing that there in terms of chinas position they feel somewhat encircled you know that of the 400 military bases that directly or indirectly surround china just from the us alone they have the 5 you have the quad you know these these countries are actually getting the other and saying well were against china so the irony here is that china believes its being defensive that its trying to protect what it believes it is owned and its being interpreted by the west as aggressive now you know my colleague mentioned that this because ling that the coupling is an aggressive act its not something that china is doing its something that the west is doing now europe will have to make up its own mind what it wants to do but when you start saying that you know what the world is to clip the coupling from china yes they should feel under attack as far as always concerned germanys own. Intelligence agencies have already passed while away theres no reason to ban it other than political so this idea that somehow europe is blameless and is simply standing up for the rights of poor people around the world kind of. Hypocritical especially given the. History of europe in the colonials nation so at this point i think would be better to stop with this kind of rhetoric of blame and start thinking how does this go forward how can all of these countries start figuring out how they can to learn to accept that. They have different systems european is different from the us china is different from europe theyre all different from each other the question is how do you get along crystal bolding in los angeles the wood hypocritical was just used that when great powers use their democracy and their diplomacy to further their own ends often it can be quite brutal in the case of britain during colonialization where they actually just use violence to get their own way america now uses its soft power to try to get his own way but isnt afraid of invading a country should its desire is not be met so what do you think is a hypocritical. Well i think theres a very key differences being overlooked here and that is we recognize those those issues of colonialism that took place as wrong and china is does not accept any of those those acts as wrong that is why we see what is taking place in chin john as defensible by the agent that is why we see what is taking place in hong kong as defensible they are arguing that this is correct and everyone should just accept this is why beijing is is threatening to invade taiwan and everyone should just accept. The there is a very key difference here and that is there is the old communist joke that you know anyone can go out and criticize anyone in a communist country and go out and criticize the u. S. President because thats freedom of speech but dont try it out about your own leader theres a very great she difference here when were talking about x. Viewing certain axis correct beijing does not view that were genocide as as a problem it does not view basically ending its agreement with hong kong as a problem we view those as problems we view what happened in the past with colonialism and other acts as problems and intil beijing recognizes things like actual free and fair trade human rights theres going to be a lot of increase in french and ill get your response in just a 2nd but i want to come to teresa fallen for just a moment have you heard what crystal bolding had to say in los angeles certainly there we go genocide because he has he called it and were talking about the invasion potential invasion of taiwan these a very big issues but they are issues that havent that can be dealt with at the European Union level at an International Level which china if china plays ball how do you do that how does the International Community react to chinas Foreign Policy. Well if you want from an honest opinion from the european standpoint europe has been unable to speak with a single voice on china since 2016 in the arbitral tribunal decision so the Chinese Embassy effectively declares europe neutralized and we saw with hong kong for example there are 27. 00 you Member States and only one even suggested sanctions on hong kong because of the new security law so its clear that europe is really weak in this area so in regard to Foreign Policy formulation weve even seen it recently with belarus it could make a statement because of cyprus so with 27 Member States. Its always the lowest common denominator so that that question i hope i answered for you but this is an issue for europe the only thing europe has is an economic toolbox and because they cant get an equal Playing Field theyve been asking this for 7 years now 30 meetings and they cant even decide on the name the chinese call it a bilateral investment treaty the europeans colored comprehensive agreement and investment and they still cant get anywhere on this so china likes to hold the economic carrot up to help make the europeans behave d themselves and stay quiet about hong kong and stay quiet about other things but since europe really doesnt have any alternatives now what theyre doing is creating a defensive tool box so theyve increased foreign direct screening mechanisms they want to make it more difficult for china to buy technology that they wont be able to buy from the United States so europe is actually in creasing their economic clout with china. Uno one of the things that were going to discuss right now is a reaction to both of those things that you just give me your quick initial reaction to the. Ok for my american colleagues i notice he did not mention the wars that the United States and iraq and i hope he recognizes those are wrong also but no matter what has happened in the past the question is Going Forward now he refers to as this as a genocide theres absolutely no proof that the indications are that yes there has been an attempt to create a reeducation camp i dont necessarily agree or disagree i havent seen it i know that aljazeera has done various programs on it but the idea that this is a genocide is simply nonsense all of the information that comes from there is either from instigated by a terrorist organization and that is the recognized by europe and the u. N. And also this gentleman called adrian zen who is a born again christian who does not appear believes that all muslims will be going to hell in the near future so its just astounds me that somebody whos definitely not interested in the most of the community has suddenly become an expert on the basis of very dodgy studies indicated that there is a genocide going on that women are being forced sterilized etc so there are statistics there are anomalies in there and certainly china is imposing the same child policy in both sin john and eventually tibet is my guess that they have for the rest of society in china so at this point in terms of the europeans i think its its not wise to project your own weaknesses as the faults of others the fact that the e. U. Cannot get its act together is not chinas fault would be better if everybody would agree to go back to the w t o the us would agree to let the judges be appointed so that there can be some sort of final tribunals especially as to economic matters also the United Nations needs to be changed this idea that 5 post world countries should. Hold the sway over the Economic Security of i mean the security of the world is not christian i think shooting pain made it clear that hes willing to open that door i think thats the kind of things that we need to recognize as we are entering a multipolar world not one dominated by one old establishment or one that followed it and there is a significant problem here you talked about. And youve talked about the the mass of the genocide of the week as i guess in los angeles called it there is a way of combating all of these criticisms you allow somebody like me to come visit the camp you will have a free press in china you can deal with this there is a cost to being a powerful nation and that is transparency and openness and even you can agree that china has a very long way to go before it can claim to be transparent and open children. I agree completely i think the press has the sunlight which. Creates cleanliness but also trust and i think it would be better if they do it but i dont make policy in china this is something that they have to come come to on their own i mean the chinese are not good at the p. R. Game and this is one of their major failings i think they should allow people into these camps to show them exactly what theyre doing and in fact if they are really educating people so that they can join the workforce and not be discriminated against remember if china did not educate these people they would be in essence be accused of creating an apartheid System People who cannot have any kind of economic rise because they cannot do more than either farm or cook so at this point i would agree with you china needs to grow a thicker skin and needs to join the the International World and thats part of it but the other nations have to meet it halfway i mean the vitriol that comes out on a daily basis from the International Press against china that simply is not helping the matter i mean every day the trumpet ministration is throwing out some reason why china is the ultimate evil i dont recall that thats the way that you get to negotiations turns a song i think you have something to say about this i knew. I wanted to pick up on a nice point he said journalism creates tone but all weve seen are journalists being not the reasons are being renewed so there is no New York Times no bloomberg no wall street journal all of these journalists have been forced out of china and to say that journalism creates tough when you dont allow journalists in your country least the world with the perception that you have to have something to hide and just the story broke recently from an australian journalist who had this happen to him 2 years ago because the narrative out of beijing is that this is to protect the trumpet ministration but this happened to him 2 years ago and they actually tried to take an 14 year old daughter and threaten the. She would be put in into a black prison unless he cooperated with her so the level is just very very low its frightening and i think. You know i know you know that these things are going on and the other point i want to pick up on was about decoupling you mentioned that its awful that the world wants to decouple but who started the decoupling there is no Twitter Facebook google New York Times bloomberg none of these things are in china and that happened years ago so to say that the rest of the world is the coupling theyre only actually following which china has done originally china has chosen to decouple many years ago and im going to get your response in just a 2nd but i want to comes across a balding 1st christopher surely all for all fair in love and diplomacy. Yes i mean basically what were seeing is is that beijing is basically saying you do it my way or theres no discussion weve seen that in pretty much everything that is that is happening and i mean if you look at whether its change on whether its hong kong whether its australian wine whether its technology. At the end of the day theres one way to do it and thats beijings way so this idea that somehow off the world needs to meet beijing halfway is nonsensical fairy tales that arent worth responding to we look at everything that is taking place and its basically beijings way or the way as its being set. And if you know when you talk about a rules based order there is rules based or that everybody has basically agreed to even beijing has said that they supposedly agree to these things but when we when we look at how these rules are implemented with anything regards to china theres still a massive negative slots were cut where companies arent companies cannot invest in china and in enormous number of industries basically if you want to invest even in industries in china that are allowed for instance you are required by law to have a chinese partner that holds 51 percent. Of the company so this idea that somehow the rest of the world needs to meet beijing halfway is simply nonsense oh no meeting beijing health way i mean does beijing have to like even do that its a powerful nation is an emerging nation that has become one most powerful on the planet can it simply does get away with doing what it wants. No it cant and its not trying to despite the narratives there i resent the idea that you say i know this is going on as if im some sort of part of the conspiracy. The fact is you know the press needs to be even unfair to us just striking out against the press the press is under siege almost worldwide in every area out there and i disagree with that supreme to say that its a little bit on tort and heres my friend in america you know he still cant bring himself to talk about the wars that the u. S. Has started the ultimatums why dont we Start Talking about steel and aluminum unilateral terrorists. You know against not only foes but neighbors and supposedly friends and allies so this idea that somehow china is the one thats issuing ultimatums out there is ridiculous yes china has to meet the right of the world more than halfway because they are not have the world in the not pretending to be if you take a look at the speeches at the u. N. The difference between what donald trump said and his 7 minutes ursus what she says i think it says it all you have an adults you have children defending children and their wild things are not even mentioning them is amazing i mean donald trump is the problem all right he might be a symptom of a sickness and within the i know you say that because they dont know something that will be not a lot of the policies the season paying is doing pulling out International Agreements using chinas economic power to basically bribe countries lets say one concrete example 2008 the financial crash australia nice to survive its because of the amount of exports australian exports into china so they they they actually survived the 2008 crash more than any other western country there is a lot of what china is doing to get its anway and it is a little trump ian i mean lets be absolutely clear about the. Well i would just think i would just agree i think if you look at the tenor of the town and the content of what china says its quite different from what trump does in terms of i dont know why you would strike it put it as a strike against china that australia was doing well during the downturn that was caused by u. S. Financial institutions or or lets say malfeasance within them at this point i and in terms of withdrawing from treaties i dont know of any treaty that china has withdrawn from the all running out of time and i want to ask you this question. China then too powerful to take on is that where were at the most absolute no no thats not true and that kind of arrogance is is really only on the u. S. Side at this juncture i think china has to be humble i think they fairly are but they feel under attack and you need i can understand why they feel that theyre trying to draw and make sure what they think is there is under their control theyre given bombarded every day and they feel yes on the defensive i want to thank all our guests i know its hanging in trees a fallen and crystal building and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website out 0 dot com and for further discussion go to a Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter handle is at a. J. Inside story and me imran khan in tights he made it end. The health of humanity is at stake a Global Pandemic requires a global response. W. H. O. 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