On installed and we tracked down from danskin to popular chinese out citing security concerns does this rob americans of their freedoms and whether it leads to an east west device off the internet this is inside story. Hello there and welcome to the program im helmar here dean starting this sunday americans will not be able to download 2 of the most popular social media apps in the world the u. S. Department of commerce said it would bar people from getting chinese apps takes hold and. Chats few any stores on any platform President Donald Trump insists the apps Parent Companies sarette in National Security and could pass user data to china well well have a panel of experts to discuss this in just a moment but 1st this report from our White House Correspondent kimberly harcourts. A stirring rebuke from the u. S. President were not going to do anything to jeopardize security. The white house alleges the popular chinese based apps to talk and we chat are stealing american users private information and handing it to the government in beijing on friday the u. S. Commerce department announced we chat will be banned in the u. S. Starting sunday well new restrictions on tick tock will also go into place a full ban on ticktock could come into effect in november after weeks of bidding tech giant oracle submitted a proposal to run the apps in the United States but before was approved the u. S. Government moved ahead with the ban we have some great options if we can keep a lot of people happy but have the security that we need we have to have the total security for. Us social media apps like facebook and instagram are banned in china but ticktock Officials Say this decision could affect the entire industry there vallon to fight the new restrictions in the courts Vanessa Papas tick tocks general manager of the us is inviting facebook and instagram to publicly join our challenge and support our litigation this is a moment to put aside our competition and focus on Core Principles like freedom of expression and due process of law we chat has more than 1200000000. 00 active users but less than 2 percent are from the United States. The biggest impact could be on u. S. Companies like walmart starbucks nike and amazon they all use we chat ecommerce platform in china to conduct business this weeks move is part of a bigger fight the Trump Administration continues to wage with beijing recent weeks the u. S. Has taken multiple actions including rejecting chinese sovereignty over disputed parts of the South China Sea blacklisting chinas. Largest tech company while way and cancelling the visas of thousands of chinese grad students and researchers in the United States one analyst argues the move by the Trump Administration could have unintended consequences one of the principles there in the cold war is we tried to get as much information in to communist countries as we could we dropped leaflets we asked the radio and now were cutting off one of the made mechanisms we have for telling people about democracy in the rest of the world this latest fight with china is a risky one for trump with just weeks until the u. S. Election 20 percent of tik tok users will vote for the 1st time in november and trumps move is likely to be unpopular kimberly helped get aljazeera washington. Well china has condemned the u. S. Decisions a ban text talk and we chat and urges washington to stop what it calls bullying behavior and wrongdoing it says it will take the necessary measures to safeguard the interests of chinese businesses or Chinas Ministry of commerce also retaliated by regulations aimed at Foreign Companies that it sees as a threat to National Sovereignty and security and takes talks Payment Company by dance has filed a complaint in a us federal courts challenging trumps executive order. Lets take a causal loop at these 2 chinese apps that have more than 100000000 users in the United States takes up a case a video sharing app users can post up to a minute video and have access to a vast database of songs and filters has been downloaded 2000000000 times globally and connects a huge collects a huge amount of user data including what videos people watch their phone model and even how they type we chat is described as a super app used for messaging social media and Electronic Payments you could do your shopping and because taxi or even an appointment with a doctor on the app it has around a 1000000000 active users worldwide around 19000000 of those are reported to be in the United States its popular among Chinese Students and expats and people who do business with china. Well lets bring in our guests from San Francisco were joined by mitch stoltz senior staff attorney at the Electronic FrontierFoundation Money you could see a son or just an editor in chief at whats on weight who joins us from amsterdam and from storrs connecticut is department go she called director of digital platforms and democracy projects at the Harvard Kennedy school thank you all for joining us lets start with you may just explain says why is the u. S. Proposing a ban on take talk we shot what exactly is the National Security rationale for this ban. Thank you its obviously its fairly. It has to do with china having the ability to collect personal data from users of the airport which you know or includes millions of americans. Theyre claiming that is a National Security threat but if it is a National Security affairs threat then that sure that the us is justified in such a ban if this app can go through your contacts find out how you type in real time access all this information surely the government is right to take some action not really in for a couple of reasons one there are many apps that can collect that same sort of data now many of them are u. S. Based many of them are not that that sort of data gets collected now and thats not good thing that that gets collected but we really need this comprehensive privacy laws in the United States that would regulate the collection and use of that data but the collection that we checked does is not. The other reason is the the 1st amendment to the Us Constitution puts pretty strict limits on the ways that the government can interfere with speech and banning an entire. Communications platform from the United States is a really significant interference with the speech of americans and that requires a very high level of justification so it takes more than a vague. Statement that this. Well armed actual security there really needs to be specific and weve never seen those specifics and thats not enough to pass a constitutional test. My account see you come to us with the perspective from china you work a lot with social media in china how is this ban being perceived in Mainland China and beyond well actually also just what what micha now says actually is something that you also hear a lot by chinese experts and social media responses that people say this ban has nothing to do with the National Security of the u. S. This has everything to do with protecting american digital hedging moni and the american authorities being afraid of the social media landscape in the world shifting to words the westernization and shifting towards the digital rise of china and i mean america used to be the main player when it you know when it was about social media but this is changing drastically and they see that its more about this that it is about security but theres a certain double standards there money when you look about the apps that are books in china face because been trying to work in china for years twitter has also been bands that the chinese arent they arent hesitant to impose bands of their own and not just in tech but across the board really so why is it ok for china to do this but its not ok for the u. S. Well the difference is that america is a democracy so and i mean america prides itself in being a free country so what a lot of social media users in china today are writing is well is this free america so this is what you pride yourself with so i mean of course there is some hypocrisy there but they all know that they are living in a digital environment that has the great firewall of china around them so i mean chinese social media users are very much aware of the censorship and the online environment that theyre living in ok let me turn to you. The trumpet ministration is saying this is very much about National Security and they argue that they have the right to take action when it comes to apps that are overreaching do you think this is about tech overreach or do you think that this has more political a more political subtext there in the middle of a trade war with china and this is the u. S. Trying to store strong arm a better conditions for American Companies. Well you know i think i think this is entirely political but thats to say the motivation behind this decision from the Trump Administration is entirely political we we have this election coming up i think this sort of action certainly motivates many many people that maybe in the president s support base to show up and be active i think its its the sort of thing that that. That energizes much of his followers. Hes taken a number of actions to instigate this this trade war with but china and i think i think this is only supports all that all of those measures now thats not to say that there is not a National Security risk here or i think hypothetically there could very well be as many mentioned earlier. This both of these applications collect a lot of information and. We know of other Chinese Companies that do work very closely with the with the chinese authorities. And if in any way by dance or week we were were during any of that and i think. These 2 companies could very well be justifiably the. These 2 companies can very well be presenting a National Security risk to the United States but as much mentioned we just we dont know that much the administration has not been very forthcoming with the circumstances do you think that this is a bytes an administration would take steps to reverse this or is there is there a certain logic can take in this kind of action when it comes to privacy in the mag of data that apps collect. You know i think i think you by by i mean ministration would. Certainly come in and understand try to understand where the trumpet ministration was coming from and since we dont know that right now the public does not know exactly how the trumpet ministration is analyzed and its this decision right now its hard for me to say what by ministration would potentially do but i imagine that it will try to. Develop a fair approach to this decision try to understand whether or not these 2 applications. Actually present a serious National Security risk to the United States whether they actually they certainly collect a lot of information but are they are they profiling us users to the end of handing that information over to the Chinese Government that is something that by ministration would try to substantiate i imagine and and take a decision there after but it but it certainly wouldnt be or. Very raw political reasons that the Trump Administration is undertaking right now lets talk about its privacy and about Data Collection because its the Data Collection which appears to be the joy in force behind they span and sadly there have been studies done. Reverse engineering of what takes help does which shows they extensive the Data Collection which has caused reasonable concerns mitch stoltz. If i could ask you are you more states apps be doing should they not become lexing as much data because a lot of these social media apps such as Facebook Instagram twitter heaven knows what else their Business Model really is based on collect saying the most intimate data possible so whats the solutions of this. There are ways to support those Business Models that dont require collecting as much data as they do and even within the constraints of of this advertising based Business Model that involves targeting individual consumers all of these companies whether to talk or facebook or twitter can and do a whole lot more to collect only what they need and not retain that data longer than is needed those are missing the basic. Legal principles that i get have not been imposed in the United States outside of very specific contexts but probably should read more broadly you know you know theres there are a lot of questions about whether the behavioral targeting advertising based Business Model of some of these major web sites is the only way to do it and it may be that advertising may be just as valuable and just as strong of a way to support the businesses of these websites and apps without collecting that level of data and storing it forever because it does seem to be quite critical niche that because the Big Tech Companies were holed up in front of congress not that long ago and google and apple seem to be collecting terrific amounts of data on all their uses so this doesnt appear to be on the surface of it just about the Chinese Companies how much of a willingness is there within the American Congress certainly to actually tackle this issue not a whole lot right now. Particularly as regards American Companies but that could change there is a lot of Broad Movement towards guaranteeing more protections for internet years of privacy protections in particular of course europe has a strong set of privacy protections for internet news or is it depends but it turns out i think i think invite protect sector. Thats correct did the 2 or the 2 in any way insulate it is a tough problem. Crafting privacy rules that dont hamper Small Companies or favor the largest one is a difficult problem but its one that we really have to tackle and simply banning apps is not a very good way to do that and you could draw a. Pretty close parallel between ticktock and american apps like facebook the this move by the Trump Administration sort of bridges that last gap where they sort of become arms of the government because they are told what to do and not to do and im thinking here really of the app stores and apple and google the run app stores they are the targets of this executive order theyre being told you a private business cannot carry this app you cannot provide this particular set of of ones and zeroes to your users ok thats a whole lot like what we suspect trying to does with its companies so this makes us not all that much different from china and quite adolescent take a look at the impacts of this maze and what its likely to cheat money could say. Many of our viewers might not be familiar with we chat but it is quite a fundamental lot for many Chinese People im for the chinese diaspora give us a sense of just how important this sap ase to china chinese communities and will sort of impact do you think banning the sample humph. Oh that impact will be huge for chinese families who are separated people studying in the United States often is their only way of staying in touch with their families we chat you can imagine is like the key to your every day urban life in china today it is how you pay it is how you do business contacts how you talk to your friends how you order a cab how you do your groceries without we chat youre pretty much nowhere so although the app is not that popular in america the impact will still be for those in america who depend on the we chat to talk with their parents or to receive money for example and how how do you think this this will play out because it sounds like theres an intentional wedge being driven between china and the u. S. Certainly the tick tock ban so has a few more days to see if this up will be sold with we chat this is coming in instantly and so how do you think chinese communities will see this will they see it like the u. S. Is government site to get them or or how do you think this will be entire proceeds. Oh yes you know a lot of people say this is a type of bullying and but all 2 the also they say that america shooting itself in their own food because it will also impact american businesses but what i saw today on chinese social media is that people were talking about 10 cent launching the we come app and from what i understood the we come app is like the we chat app but its registered under a different name so the question is how far will 10 cent go to circumvent the ban and now far will trump go to make sure that we chat will really be banned even if it uses a different name in the u. S. Ok lets take a look at the future and what the future holds obviously there are political dimensions to this which is what will change over several several years but in terms of the way that tech is moving forwards. Do you think were getting into a state where we have a chinese and so net and we have an american internet and a european and so net what is the future who are these bombs the way forwards. Well i dont know if there is a way forward in the in the steady state in the very long run but certainly were seeing this internet that happened before our eyes where. Perhaps we we we thought that the u. S. Might have this this open democratic 6 open free market approach to internet regulation which and internet governance which it which it has had since the ninetys but now with this with this with this shut out of. The most popular chinese applications and by the way other chinese applications and and technology previously we are seeing this divergence and europe is often in some corner as well in many ways where it doesnt it has a different flavor it doesnt have these leading names over the unities leading companies but it has very rigorous approach to putting the consumer and the Citizens Rights 1st. And and thinking about commerce. As a secondary interest. To the individuals rights and of course we have china so so i think i think theres more about where were seeing these different approaches to internet governance split off from one another. And many people have been saying that this was this is only inevitable but you know i think that circumstances could change very quickly if biden wins the presidency in the United States. Or under under many other different contingencies ok and are you worried very quickly if you wouldnt mind to pine gauche are you worried about the potential repercussions on Companies Like apple and google when china decides that its how the 8. Im not worried right now i think i think circumstances will change after november. And the trumpet ministration even if it stays in power as is left open. The door for a deal to still happen. Meanwhile apple and google are cash rich these are these are some of the richest Country Companies in the history of the United States im more worried about about internet governance. Anyone from one or the world to be able to speak with someone else and do commerce of someone else than ever. Ok the last 30 seconds a soso quick answer from each of the few with mitch stoltz do you think the future liason incident governance or do you think we should let this play out in an organic way i think the United States needs to stand up stand up for its principles of free speech or not. Retaliate and in resisting china become China Internet governance will have a role to play and could see it do you think and so that government says it will play a stronger role or at sea think that the chinese will continue as theyve been going on and the americans will have to find their own feet yes exactly i mean in china the internet is extremely controlled there is no other country in the world that has internet that is still controlled so it will keep on going the same way for the years to come for sure ok and finally to pioneer a quick answer from you what do you think the future holds in terms of governance given the chinese are unlikely to adapt to change their own strategy. I think through time were going to continue seeing this this winter im all. Over time we will emerge here ok we will all keep our fingers crossed for a much more open ended that but for now to all 3 of my guests thank you very much indeed mitch stoltz man you could say to pioneer gauche and thank you to you for watching it from home we can see this program again any time of course by heading to our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to the social media app of your choice we have a Facebook Page forward slash inside story join the conversation on twitter handles at a. J. Inside story or to get a wreck late at night in the finale for me and the whole team is by fanatics thank you with. An image can change the way we see the womb if we had not seen this we quickly talking about it it can spark mass action or serve the interests of the powerful he created this longing for a fellow opportunity it can obscure the truth this is a legitimate news story but this play on the talking points for pretty intense because it can forge narratives or rewrite through the listening post gives you the full picture on a. The worlds biggest economy was put on hold. Deregulating industries of old delivered new growth for a president who promised greatness again. But the coronavirus pandemic has seen resurgence replaced with a recession as the world eagerly watches on to see out either president ial candidate might revive the flagship u. S. Economy. Details coverage of the u. S. Elections on aljazeera. Russia has jeopardized the United States security interest we know what you are doing and you will not succeed perceptions from the outside looking at last but more to the picture from the inside. I think russias Foreign Policy is too soft to keep most russian goals have your truth not peace a more diffuse russia all knowledge a 0. Hello im Adrian Finnegan in doha before Al Jazeera World a summary of the main news on aljazeera iran is accusing the u. S. Of bullying over a decision to unilaterally reimpose International Sanctions against tehran its urging the world to defy the u. S. Which has threatened to punish countries opposing its action but britain france and germany insist that relief will remain as part of the 2015 nuclear deal aljazeera as i said big has more from tehran well to han has always maintained that the United States is in no position to reimpose these sanctions or even trigger that snapback be