Hi im Steve Clemons and i have a question are evangelicals giving President Trump the votes he needs to win a 2nd term lets get to the bottom line. About a 3rd of americans identify themselves as born again or as evangelical christians and among that group almost all of them voted for donald trump in 2016 and the vast majority say theyre going to do it again in a few weeks in return trump has pushed the religious rights agenda with this culture war and socially conservative policies the appointment of conservative judges and support for israels government but what is this huge group in American Society and how did they become such an enormous influence on americas political scene what do evangelical christians believe it and what do they want my guest today is spent his life researching and writing about American Christian fundamentalism and its Global Network he is jeff sharlet the executive producer of the family of dr drama that was released on netflix last year based on his own book the family the secret fundamentalism at the heart of American Power miss charlotte thank you so much for joining us today in your show and youre writing i mean im amazed by. The degree to which you have had had a foot in the evangelical camp and a foot out if you will and youve been able to tell this story and yet i think you still describe yourself as part of that world how youve been able to navigate these currents. I am deeply interested in that world have been reporting on it for many years but im not an evangelical christian i was so Netflix Series in the book. About nor going to zation called the family the oldest and most influential Christian ConservativePolitical Movement in washington and in fact actually serve active globally as well and they subscribe to a theological view that once youre a member your chosen by god for membership it doesnt matter what you do doesnt matter if you want to be a member not your chosen so i became a member and so im chosen im a brother of the family im up bad brother from their perspective because here i am with you reporting out in the world raising questions about their theological views but i guess. What do they want from President Trump and i and i just you know im sure youve been asked this a 1000000 times how have they been able to square their own religious views and their aspirations with someone who has a kind of complicated past and a complicated set of behaviors one might argue a president from. I think i understand the the way he meant dont come brace of drum you really have to understand the movement is not monolithic and then in fact from much of its sort of history over the last 100 years its sort of had to have 2 wings its had the populace from and thats what you see thats the folks who are talking about the moralist the bible thumpers apapa pounders and then theres also always been an elite some described as and are. Best represented by this Organization Called the family which holds the National Prayer breakfast every year tended by every president since eisenhower their view which has become the mainstream view for white evangelicalism is deeply transactional theyre not so much interested in the character of the leader as that leaders willingness to implement the policies the ideas the laws the theology that they believe in and so on donald trump theyve got down trump understood that was a deal he was willing to make the deal and he has paid off hes been the most productive president for evangelical conservatives in u. S. History more so than Ronald Reagan more so than george w. Bush by a distance so when we ask how can they embrace this you know thrice marry adulterer and so on we have to remember theyre really just folks but theyre also political folks they have things they want to get done and trump gets them done well jeff i remember watching one of the Prayer Breakfast i had actually been invited and i couldnt attend i watch it later online as when when President Trump when it was talking about his ratings and then and then challenge Arnold Schwarzenegger of ratings senator chris coons was there in his face just turned green so to chris coons a democrat from delaware really does believe in the power of the pair Prayer Breakfast hes a democrat and so is this this spoil of 2 images one really devout about faith the other that seems hardly to care about him in my getting this wrong. Yes and no i mean in the sense you know the family of which chris coons has been a participant its different than the mainstream christian right in the sense that its always had a small number of democrats involved its always been mostly conservative googly its very conservative but theres always a few democrats they have a Bigger Picture longer term view of their political project so they have room for those folks. And they even have room of course for someone like down from whos crass in the flue national no ones idea of a pious man but theres a way in which trump has remade the National Prayer breakfast hes remade the christian right hes remade it in his image i dont think we can we can overemphasize how profound a shift trump is amiss we almost want to think of it as a new Theological Movement thats drawing not just on the christian right but on the conspiracy theories of q. And a its idea that. All trumps enemies democrats are involved in an International Child trafficking ring thats gone mainstream many evangelicals and meanwhile the organization of evangelicals and the political well being the power has given a kind of worldly presence to what was once a digital friendship q. And so these things have emerged in trumps sort of most outlandish comments at the National Prayer breakfast. Go from being shocking to someone like chris coons to being accepted and even celebrated by most of the members of the family. But i guess part of my deep interest in this question are the you know the contradictions that evangelicals carry with them that if you go and you find you know a twitter account of an eventually whos active politically it might you know have a guy who served in the military says hes a child of christ a real patriot be holding up with a gun might have you know you know talk about White America and so from someone who looks at christianity as a religion as a forgiving religion as a religion of the lost or the needy is seeing something very different in these visual images and im wondering if you can give our viewers an understanding of some of what the evangelical carries and how it got so woven into a very kind of pug nations dark politics. Yeah yeah i think i think here again groups like the family and the sort of the elite wing which are more theologically sophisticate if you want to put it that way are out front and have sort of shaped. The ideas that the rest of the movement now subscribes to so where as christianity of course is always emphasized maybe not always adequately but the poor in the week in the suffering the down and out this group the family began back in the 1930 s. As and from their point of view and cant i socialist movement with what they believed was a vision from god telling them that christianity been getting it wrong for you know if you 1000 years by focusing on the down and out that those who god cared most about were the up and that is figures that were in power that god had put in power and it didnt really matter the virtues of that person god was using that kind of figure they would compare it to king david in the bible you know most people know its you know the story dating go high the young boy who kills the giant. The adult david becomes a much more complicated figure not always a good man by any stretch it doesnt matter to them they use this is a this is a model for political leaders youre chosen by god to do gods work and heres where it gets really scary they have won compared christ not to a lamb. But to you and im quoting here because it sounds so out of hand land you say you want to understand that the strength of jesus to say look at Hitler Stalin lenin man now. And you look at this horrific list of figures its not fascist exactly its not communist exactly the common denominator for them is strength and i think in the last 30 years the only way way way way way so youre saying they admire i mean i hate to interrupt but you say theyre saying mouse and lenin and hitler with admiration. Admiration yes i dont know if i could respect their clear that these are evil men but when they try and understand their crisis they dont see a peaceful lamblike figure they see a bigger of strength they emphasize that spectrum to sort of say the virtue that they most admire and the jesus that has come to be at the heart of the American Christian right is strength and sort of a strong man personality. That they see reflected in donald trump so that for instance you look back at the 262016 campaign one of the best selling evangelical books in support of trump was called gods chaos hinted by an evangelical for john called lance won and in the book he describes trump as a wrecking ball he says this is what ours now and you see that across the christian right now. Books like wild at heart and for sizing those verses of the. New testament that emphasize christ as i come not to bring peace but the sort. That bind man shall take the kingdom of heaven by force and these are metaphors but theyve become literal and the kind of by their rhetoric surrounds. Jeff i want to play a clip for you of the president talking about joe biden hes following the radical left agenda take away your gun destroy your 2nd amendment no religion no anything hurt the bible hurt god hes a good scottie she gets guns hes against energy our kind of energy hes against god hes against guns and hes against our kind of energy now youve talked a lot about the code the secret handshake the signaling that goes on this committee is that what President Trump is doing as he depicts joe biden. Whats fascinating about trumps rhetoric now and ive been to reporting last fall i spent some time travel around the country going to trump rallies talking every day trying supporters trying to im always looking at what is the religious element here and that united Conspiracy Theory again it was french has now moved into the mainstream and its become a kind of a theological just became so trump is in as much as he sort of signaling to the christian right basie simultaneously talking to the q and on believers who are looking at things in more and more stark good and evil final spiritual war battle terms you know they call it the store and and trump is appealing to that end point maybe more than appealing to it you know what was really fascinating shows that clip is another clip when he was speaking who are in ram a couple weeks ago and he went too far even for her talking about the dark shadow as he put it secretly controlled by it and these people in the streets and we dont know their name sees it in other words is not just sort of promoting the Conspiracy Theory hes almost sort of entered into this this this very frightening mix of conspiracy and. That has come to displace. The i would a what is. The better traditions of american evangelicals and they are there but theyre not of the 4 right now look i mean i want to ask you and i dont want to mislead our audience either and its one of these things its very hard to an unquiet you know kind of unwind if youre if youre not in it like you are much more closely i know a lot of evangelicals and born again christians theyre really decent people i mean they have different views in some cases than i do but they dont believe you know a guy who owned a pizza place in d. C. Had an underground basement for child trafficking and you know which was one of the disproved conspiracy theories out there about a guy went up with a gun and threaten people up i missed. Just a remarkable part of the q. And on Conspiracy Theory so i guess when we talk about you in on a talk about simply why isnt that disqualifying in the eyes of many other evangelicals when hes chasing a fringe part what has to be a fringe part of evangelical community you know its not friends anymore i mean theres a recent poll that showed that altogether Something Like 56 percent of the Republican Party subscribes to some part of cuban homes here are a whole 3rd believe that almost all of cuban is true. And increasingly we have trumped trouble courses in north you know these with these are people who love our country its moved from the fringe to the mainstream and i think of an evangelical pastor i know who. Has described a sort of frustration at talking to his peers because so many of them have embraced it of course not everybody and theres lots of folks who have kept the whitsun their faith about them. But more and more theyre the fringe you know the ones who are being pushed the margins we saw that back in 2016 and its completely solidified now people talked about the christian right leaders who opposed and there were some people that they had their conscience one allow them to support it they lost they were lost they got pushed out of their organizations. Second 3rd tier leaders who lined themselves up which are now in the drivers seat that move. So thats what i speak of this trump ism as a kind of transformation a transformational moment and certainly a shake up of where the power is within the christian right. You know one of the other parts of this movement which i dont quite understand is what seems to be a rejection of science just this week there were some scientists revealed d that there may have there may be evidence of life on one of the moons of venus and i sort of facetiously tweeted out there but somewhat seriously say i wonder what eventually the community you know might say about this or think about this and so i guess as we you know struggle with a pandemic as we struggle with coping 1000 in the importance of science saving us how how does science fit in or not fit in to the political mindset of the evangelical community you know i think about it in terms that many chuck colson explain to me chuck colson who was to nixon perhaps as roger stone is to trump he was he was sort of the brains behind the dirty tricks operations and he had the going to prison for his role in watergate there he was born again through this organization and we in it came out to found an organization a Prison Ministry and become one of the really leading intellectuals of the christian right and the way colson put it to me he said any pick any issue you want the christian right cares about whether its creationism or abortion or l g b t 2 rights whatever it is he says these are all just wedges theyre not the main issue the main issue is always been for him and for many of the christian right between the authority of god and secularism and so i think for a lot of. Far right evangelicals they dont see themselves as antiscience they see themselves as anti secularism. They say we can have science but it has to be within this framework a few ology yalit you has to. Sort of reign supreme over and housing to take these wild antiscience positions without feeling as if theyve gone off the deep then they think that theyre still within a logical order of the universe so youve also written about the Global Network and whats interesting is that that you know some of the states that you know are we right now see the u. A. E. Israel deal in bahrain and egypt and jordan you know some of these states pride themselves on being highly secular states that are normalizing with israel but i want to play a clip for you of President Trump. Talking about this remove the capital of israel to jerusalem. The evangelical. You know its amazing with. The event jellicoe some are excited about that the jewish people its really right its a gravel but we did we did that and Golan Heights dont forget Golan Heights would that go a lot could you have whats going on there i mean it is interesting i follow the middle east politics pretty closely but i think i think donald trump is right that theres a lot of evangelical enthusiasm for some of the moves had been made with israel but it is also striking to me that those new alliances that israel is getting or with starkly secular or mostly secular governments in the middle east that are rejecting a kind of theological or you know theological government if you will. No i cant speak the specifics of how the those the os are coming about. What i can say is that you said whats going on here i think its very very straightforward and in trumps mind its the art of the deal its a quid pro quo and that deal for him as a one has been for american conservatives is a deal with the American Christian right in the American Christian right cares about israel because it fits into their prophetic understanding of the world then theres any number of republican politicians and certain politicians who line up to sort of service that the ology and trump has done it more cynically and more aggressively than most and and and i mean if if that. Needs to see some improvement in peace all to the best. But i dont think we should mistake that for any kind of broad minded Foreign Policy thats domestic policy played out in middle east in terms jeff one of the things that ive been struggling with is i think about these issues is. I guess the legacy of tolerance that america was about it was about commingling people that individual right of faith to to worship as one wanted but we had lots of different you go to South Carolina theres a you know there are synagogues there are churches that you know theres lots of things and also among the Founding Fathers and it kind of built in separation of church and state and i guess the question if it does it seems that what evangelical movement is trying to accomplish is as as youve just said its sort of the destruction of that secularist ethic and. I want to you know obviously like Rachel Maddow i heard you tell me tell me where im wrong. I wish i could i wish i could say oh i can tell you where many many christian right folks would say that youre wrong was that thats not part of the founding that the founding this was a founded as a christian nation the Christian Nationalism isnt something new that this idea of separation of church and state is something. Some good conspiratorial idea saying that Thomas Jefferson never really wrote that in his letter to the danbury baptists document American History or what we find that phrase some look to Supreme Court cases in the 1950 s. And sixtys and said it introduced an alien idea that the United States is fundamentally a christian nation what was fascinating in over hooked in 2016 and who said its going to be over again in 2020. Is that trump early on i mean actually in 2015 he understood that if he was going to court the christian right he needed to talk that talk and he when he said this is a christian name and we have to preserve it for christians and theres a strong element of race mixed in with that that he means a White Christian nation of course weve seen that. And so they dont see that theyre overturning a tradition of tolerance they see themselves as restoring the truth of christian supremacy. Jeff in our final minute or so im just interested in your insights into the achilles heel of the movement is there a way that if you you know it will it split one day between democrats and republicans will it eventually shrink because it hit a top point or do you think its a jog or not that will just continue to grow without you know being able to be stopped at some point how do you see the weak points of it and the possible fall of the evangelical Political Movement. So real quick i think the bad news and the good news the bad news is ever since 1925 when there was something called the scopes monkey trial this was about teaching evolution in schools and. And the the evolution is for why they derided in the press and the press the cleared fundamentalism dead as a force and u. S. History overlooking the fact by the way the fundamentalists won the court case. But it didnt matter they were just there were seen as fools since 925 its homicidal by the drumbeat every 510 years the press declares the christian right fundamentalism gone were past all that 2008 when i published the family 1st published book folks asked me like why have you been talking about this now with obama let the clearly the christian right is gone is a force in American Life so it does endure in endures in part because its sort of this this this and enter into twining of a populist front and you know we front and when one side sort of arises the other falls theres always a continuity ness of bad news for those who are interested in separation church say the good news is its also a movement that is constantly breaking up into factions that is has a democratic or small d. Enemy Democratic Party a small d democratic who are that says hey i get to think for myself about what my relationship to god is and that drives it and 2 factions in. To realignments and to new theologies new visions so anybody whos counting on its republicans are counting on this just being rock solid forever thats not to say. The fault lines are there but it depends on those within that movement to say enough is enough of this enough of this transaction and right now its time to return to our well jeff sharlet thank you i really appreciate these insights ive often thought to myself not only about the trial you mention but also you know where on the verge today of newark across the board of scientific and Technological Breakthroughs which will be extraordinary which will make everything we achieved in the past look small and yet it galileo were somehow resurrected around today he might still be found guilty so you know. Those are the you know the tensions that are part this so thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today thank you steve good talking. So whats the bottom line of course its fine to be a person of faith and its also everyones human right but america style of faith and politics has also been built on a separation of church and state a strong current of secularism the defines the state but which respects an individuals faith the big question now about the evangelical movement being so empowered in trumps america is this is american secularism collapsing in my opinion not yet but there are warning signs the evangelical agenda matters and should be in the mix but it needs to coexist with other religions and atheism and other views even jelly calls are motivated but so too are those who see things differently and thats the bottom line. The worlds biggest economy was put on hold. Deregulating industries of old delivered new growth for a president who promised greatness again. 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