Well the last thing peace ensued on rebel groups and the Transitional Government signed a deal to end 2 decades of conflict in darfur and 2 states in the south for what happens to the hundreds of thousands of sudanese forced from their homes this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program im wrong its being called a new beginning for sudan often 8020 years of conflict the Transitional Government and the rebels have agreed to end fighting in the doll full region as well as states of the south dakota fon and the blue nile neighboring south sudan to help negotiate the Peace Agreement over the past year but at least 2 armed groups refused to sign the deal and previous a colds in 20062011 failed to end the killings under the latest agreement rebels will be given seats in sudans Transitional Government local regions will be given more power former fighters will be integrated into the Sudanese Army and the sudanese are forced from their homes by fighting ive been promised compensation. The deal we signed today is a commitment from us and the groups that signed it to the sudanese people who have suffered from the consequences of war such as destruction displacement and theyre looking for stability and basic living its also a commitment to get through the crucial times the country is currently going through the country is facing times which need real commitment to the pope. Lucia needs we hope sudan and its people reap the benefits of real change in the suffering. Achieving such an agony that root causes and the consequences of conflict sudan. Has finally achieved the possibility of. And can move phoned in undertaking a comprehensive and good we in political transition would have been if youd. Sudan rebels in the Western Region of darfur started fighting Government Forces 17 years ago they mostly belong to minority groups which complain about political and economic marginalization by sudans arab dominated leadership fighting has killed more than 300000 people and forced almost 3000000 from their homes thousands more have died in the Southern States of South Kordofan and blue nile since the fighting started at 9 years ago former president Omar Al Bashir sent a notorious militia called the Rapid Support forces to crush the unrest after his overthrow last year bashir was indicted by the International Criminal court for war crimes and genocide several factions declared a truce and joined negotiation with the new government after bashir was ousted. I. Guess all in the United States in washington d. C. Jimmy la met a legislative aide and member of the sudan task force in some of the massachusetts alex deval hes the executive director of the World Peace Foundation and a former member of the African UnionMediation Team fidel fall and also in the u. S. Capitol karen hudson a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council hes a former chief of staff d in the office of the u. S. Special envoy to sudan a welcome to you all id like to begin in d. C. With you jimi what a year its been for sudan a revolution a Transitional GovernmentOmar Al Bashir inching closer to a war crimes trial and now this historic peace deal between the Transitional Government and the rebels how difficult was this to get to this deal to get to. Oh out of your question. Honestly its been a tumultuous year its been a painful year last year we saw millions of people into the streets demanding freedom peace and justice asking for the ouster of former president Omar Al Bashir they achieve that the sudanese people achieve that but we quickly watch that process really become inundated with political pressures and also instability from factors that were competing for bashir spot its been challenging recently given the violence in darfur just last month of the last several months its also been very difficult with the coronavirus pandemic in sudan and as you probably know sudan does not have the infrastructure that it needs the Health Infrastructure to really deal with this type of crisis amid all of that were dealing with an economic a lot of economic instability and we continue to deal with economic instability most recently theres been flooding across india and but the people of sudan are determined they want democracy they want freedom peace and justice folks died for that last year to try to make that happen and were going to continue fighting for what we envision for the future of sudan but also more should you say i want to bring Carolyn Hudson hey you were the special envoy to sudan you were clearly only the duffel poil we you surprised when this announcement was made or is this something that you did expect off of the Transitional Government and then. Well this was clearly one of the Top Priorities of the Transitional Government its written into the constitutional declaration of the country that they deliver peace to the marginalized regions of sudans or not im not surprised that theyve signed this agreement i think that when you look at who signed the agreement there what youll see is the people who have signed this agreement have signed previous Peace Agreements with the government both the previous government and now this government right so there are a number of notable holdouts to this Peace Agreement and so i dont think youre going to have a full and comprehensive peace as the as the Transitional Government is now calling it until you have some of these. Armed factions who have not signed this or previous agreements to sign on to the peace and thats going to take a lot more work i think of all cabinets and makes an interesting point there were peace deals in 20062011 that failed what makes this fight what makes this one different this one is different because its a deal signed with a government that has a credible aspiration to move to democracy so the this this government can offer something that the bush era couldnt which is a truly credible popularly backed commitment to a constitutional transformation that said it faces some very formidable problems it is a cohabitation between a civilian leadership and a military leadership and the military leadership is not only strongly powerful but also has its hands on key aspects of the economy and the economy is at the moment in in freefall and unless that is fault then many of the aspirations of the people and many of the promises of this peace deal simply cannot be to that but to me if these 2 groups havent signed on to this peace deal. Does it make it that much different from previous peace stills will it fail is it set up to fail. You know im more focused on as cameron said the people who did sign a peace deal. Cameron said they were a part of the of the previous peace deals that we saw you know under the bashir is him there are some unsavory elements factors who belong to the bashir regime still in power and i must say looking at the images coming out of sudan yesterday i was excited i guess you could say about the fact that we did sign this peace deal because the people of darfur deserve peace that people dont die for deserve to be of a live in their homes and not be or the threat of force coming in from outside and impacting their stability but the individuals who signed on to this peace. Throughout history that throughout sudans history have been some of the worst perpetua knows this violence that weve seen environ for and i do believe to move forward that the people who need to be most serious about making sure that this process doesnt become unstable that they need to be sure that theyre confident in their own abilities to make sure that they uphold the agreements that theyve signed onto you know jamila are you confident that they all they can do it. In all honesty i want to believe and its very emotional for me to to answer that question given the totality of the violence how messy and behind have cast across the entire country. You know they they came into power and id like to say that im i id like to be confident but im not sure at this time how confident i am just last month we continue to watch violent perpetuated against the people of darfur which truly poses a threat to the overall stability of our revolution this was the 1st time really in sudan to 3 that we saw everyone comes together despite their religious differences despite their tribal differences and the violence against threatening the people of darfur its really its really affected the people on the ground and their belief in this revolution and the united sudan so so i dont know id like to say that im im hopeful but but im not sure. How messy and behind should even be in our government let alone should be leading a Peace Process its good that theyre witnessing it and theyre a part of it but i would like to see true transparency and i would like to see the violence come to an end it will be very easy to tell quickly. If this is a success or not how messy and gerhard all in the government thats a fact we call really get away from alex develop their all to International Players had kept those 2 people in power the u. S. And saudi arabia will play a role in all of this. Well we have a number of middle eastern actors who. Predominantly the u. A. E. Saudi arabia we also have egypt and behind the scenes or not so behind the scenes recently israel and all of these have their own particular interests in sudan and none of them unfortunately have an identifiable interest in democracy they are sponsoring their own favored intermediaries who tend to be the generals or and the paramilitaries there are people who are ready to assume the security and economic and other political interests of the the wider middle east players the and behind this we have the United States because one of the key things that hes holding back the revolution from achieving its goals of transformation is this economic crisis and there is no prospect of the economic crisis being halted while the state sponsor terror designation remains in place and saddam that is an enormous dampener on the type of financial and economic normalization that is absolutely essential for sudan to destabilize Cameron Hudson its labyrinthian to say the least you have a key u. S. Ally backing. The government and actually probably not looking for democracy within sudan itself and that saudi arabia is any pressure at the u. S. Can pour on saudi arabia to move forward with this democratic process or is it game over when it comes to that. Well no i think that the United States has been using a lot of the diplomatic leverage that it has to create the time and the space politically in sudan for this transition to take hold and toward to mature and develop and so i think youve seen the u. A. E. The saudi arabia take a bit of a hands off approach in the last few months. And it has allowed i think the Transitional Government to to continue to work through its growing pains you know we have to remember that this is an unprecedented agreement that theyre living through right now and as the Prime Minister 100 continues to hold it up as a potential model for the arab world and so i think the u. S. Has been very involved diplomatically behind the scenes to keep those sort of negative outside forces at bay weve seen obviously now the u. S. Pushing i think sudan into the arms of israel and i think it sees that as an opportunity not just to bolster its own middle east peace plan. But to test today and because sudan has said that it wants to reorient its Foreign Policy it wants a balanced Foreign Policy it wants to move away from the saudi arabia as the u. S. Ease iran it wants to move away from those past alliances and forge new rely on line says with democratic partners in the region and beyond and i think they look at israel as a perfect way to do both of those things to me the arm of the currently looking israel as a way of doing those things but theres a lot of people in sudan a lot of ordinary people in sudan who simply dont want peace or even recognition of israel is this is cameron right is this a big deal in sweden in sudan in sudanese toto can circles you know youre asking me that capital out there in terms of reconciling the sudanese you know and the homeland see it and the way that i might see it as you know the sudanese living in the United States i certainly say and i acknowledge camus that i do think that it will benefit sudan had an open relation relationship with israel but i do. I want to pivot back to you know what we were talking about before with u. S. And saudi arabia i do believe that the United Arab Emirates and saudi arabia definitely need to you know do a little bit more in terms of encouraging you know how much he and behind to do the right thing i mean it seems like you know after their meetings last year during the revolution and that he came back you know it at least it seems you know a lot more prepared to assume more of a leadership position and i do believe that came from financial backing from the United Arab Emirates and saudi arabia and i you know considering the fact that you know these 2 countries are still engaged in Economic Warfare with with qatar even i do find their attempts at least to engage in a Peace Process when it comes to sudan a bit disingenuous if they cant even make nice with their neighbors right across the peninsula but this is a Peace Agreement that is actually happening now is parts of it jamila. The latest agreement rebels will be given seats in sudans Transitional Government does that mean they get away with the crimes that they perpetuated over the last 17 years is there a significant chunk of the sudanese population that would rather just this than this deal. Absolutely there are 4 am people have been robbed of justice for the past since 2003 until sudan decides to send it to the International Criminal court to begin with the sudanese people wont receive the justice that they deserve and i know all of the sudanese people including people in south sudan who have bloodshed on our hands from creating instability there for war for wars for decades and so yes i think that Omar Al Bashir it needs to be sent to the International Criminal court but follow behind i believe that it is important as well for some of these these these elements that have seemed to survive the revolution to also face their day in court absolutely others to vote what do you think is going to be the weak link in the in the peace till the people rather see these people behind bars rather than within the government. I dont think its the weak link in this p. C. L. I think it was the weak link in the deal that was made a year ago which allow the military leaders to nettie burke others to remain in a dominant position in the government i think giving an amnesty to the de facto amnesty to the arm the rebels in dark or in South Kordofan a new the mountains is is ranty not an issue i think those on groups need to be brought into government and its a shame that this didnt happen a year ago this peace deal has that it has taken so long i think the real threat and here i have to disagree in a particular way with cameron is is i think the prioritize ation by the middle eastern powers egypt israel saudi arabia and the emirates and i put them all together they prioritize action of their immediate transactional security Material Interests over the preservation of democracy in sudan that is the threat and the United States is falling into line with that essentially what it just said to the civilian government is dont call us in washington call. Be call call cairo call call abu dhabi there are people who will sort of know you and if the United States had been committed had been sincere about the success of democracy in sudan it would have found a way to stand up to the pressures coming from those those actors to favor their military intermediaries in sudan and they would have found a way to work around this enormous dead weight of the state sponsors of terror designation which is no longer justified sudan has not been sponsoring terrorists for years and years and some of the justice. Occasions are really. Procedural issues inside baseball within washington and if the administration had kept that democracy in sudan he would have found a workaround for that and it hasnt and im afraid that is the dead weight on the aspirations for successful democracy in peaceful and change and in sudan Cameron Hudson in washington d. C. Your response please. Well listen i mean i think Winston Churchill said it best the best that washington always does the right thing after its exhausted all other options right and so i think its taken a long time in washington to to come to terms with this Transitional Government i think we want to believe people in washington want to believe but theyve been slow to recognize that the dura billet. And the genuineness of the Transitional Government is is there that the military isnt simply waiting in the wings for this sanction to be removed to then come in and overthrow the civilian leadership i think its taken a little bit of time lets lets be clear we have in in 30 years built up i think one of the most exhaustive sanction regime regimes against sudan this Transitional Government just last week marked its one year in office so were talking about dismantling 30 years of bad blood blat bad relations and a very complicated network of executive office and congressional sanctions against this country so it does take time i dont wanna understate the complexity of unwinding all of these different different sanctions i think what we have seen from secretary pompei in the last few months is a real effort to understand the sudan situation a real effort to reach out behind the scenes hes had a number of phone calls with the Prime Minister hes made the 1st visit to sudan in 15 years by a secretary of state these should not be discounted i completely agree though that i think it was a ham handed approach to push the israel piece of this it ignored the sensitivities politically inside sudan right now the United States was trying to get something for nothing in sudan theres no question about that but i do think that theres greater confidence now in washington that the civilian led transition can carry the day can see this through to the end of the transitional period and hopefully to elections on hudson it has to be actionable that has to be something that the americans give the sudanese people of all the suggesting that the state sponsored terrorism designation be removed it seems a simple enough thing to do something that president obama could do quite easily why hasnt he done it. Well i think theyre working through it right now there is a political angle to this in washington which alex suggested is a lot of inside baseball but you know theyre reckoning with past misdeeds related to their designation so there have been victims groups from the u. S. Embassy bombings in kenya and tanzania which have come forward there have been Victim Groups from the 911. 00 terrorist attacks which have come forward which have cast a kind of political shadow over the listing of sudan right now and its its really unfortunate and its political its greed driven by potential victims in washington and so it has to get sorted through congress is listening to these groups right now and the administration really has to show some leadership and draw a line and say this is in the not just the u. S. National security interest which i believe it is but its in the interest of the transition that we delist sudan my sense is that washington is very close to getting to the point where it will delist you damn. Do you think washington close to delisting so donald do you disagree. I echo everything mccammon said i do believe that washington is close to delisting sudan from the state sponsored terrorism list but again that cant come soon enough as alex also highlighted the fact that it is the dead weight that preventing sudan from being able to access Foreign Direct Investments which will eventually be able to help but not completely erase or remedy the entire situation on the ground in sudan thats going to become. Work about the end of the day washington doesnt need to make this decision and it is a political game of baseball specifically you know there are particular members of congress that we are aware of that have been lobbied heavily by victims groups and so you know they do believe that sudan have to pay. The debt of the family for some type of level of reconciliation to move forward with that us going unfortunately when we and i dont say that the sound insensitive when we weigh the fact that we are holding up the futures of 44000000 sudanese people who are suffering theyre dealing 2 with a coronavirus pandemic on top of a coronavirus pandemic theyre dealing with flooding theyre dealing with a great deal of economic instability and at the end of the day washington needs to move forward today as soon as possible others to vote just very quickly because were running out of time but the delisting may not happen before november certainly often of them the whole bets are off we dont know whos going to be in charge in the u. S. You called them the delisting my half and i told. It really has to happen i mean the moral case for delisting is it is absolutely waterproof and of course if it isnt delisted its not going to have the money to pay for any of this anyway it seems to be internal getting that it cant be bought the horse to to reconsider that and democratic credible government do all these things to account for the sins of its pretty good senator before it gets any benefits from washington d. C. Id like to thank all our guests Ajibola Ahmed alex develop and Cameron Hudson and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are at a. J. Inside story for me among car and the whole team here and our whole life and i. 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