Transcripts For ALJAZ Is Healthcare A Human Right Or A Commodity 20240712

Pandemic has brought new supporters to their cause folded just like gave us all a flap in the face and made us wake up to the reality that. Nothing is changing and we needed changing we need now the people are all over upset and they. Stay in the house they dont have a war they dont have jobs they dont have food something. And our woke him up waking up their leaders have disappointed us and they didnt do their job so they grow up to contact with the citizens and now the citizens are coming together to make them i did do their job and go home i in recent weeks protesters have risked water cannon and arrest as well as threats of and actual physical assault by right wing groups the Prime Minister has labeled them anarchists complained himself of Death Threats and criticized the media for focusing on the demonstrations nonetheless the numbers on the street sunni risen saturdays protest in west jerusalem thought to be the biggest yet weeks and there is no sense of the momentum of these protests is slowing no sense of people may get tired of coming out onto the streets with such frequency the question is what effect all this will have on the political fortunes of the target of these protests the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The coronavirus pandemic deep into its 2nd wave has seen unemployment top 20 percent with more than half of israelis worried about paying bills public trust in the Prime Minister has nearly carved suggests one poll to 29 percent less than you know who is denied persistent reports that hes considering pulling the plug on his fractious coalition with former rival benny gantz and going to elections once more when you have seen this kind of discontent in the street and when you have people that are really really protesting and really really calling for the end to his tenure its not the time to go to elections he realizes this is going to be the greatest Political Risk that hes ever taken Benjamin Netanyahu is certainly no political newbie few a better versed in the tactics of holding on to power but the public pressure isnt. And this battle is far from over. Everything. Was juice and now the number of corona virus infections across south africa has passed half a 1000000 but experts warn its yet not reached its peak more than 10000 new cases and 148 deaths were confirmed on saturday officials expect the Health Crisis to be at its worst late this month or early september. Residents of the bahamas had been advised to stay cautious after hurricane e. C. S. Hit the u. S. National Hurricane Center says the worst affected area was near providence thats the most populous island the storm packed winds of 120 how much as an hour when it struck south of the capital in the south on saturday and forecasters warn the c. C. S. Is likely to pick up in strength as it heads north towards the u. S. State of florida and lost some speed while moving through the bahamas floridas governor has declared a state of emergency for some areas while the state is already struggling with one of the west corona virus outbreaks in the u. S. To nasa astronauts have undocked from the International Space station and are currently on their way back to earth theyre aiming for the gulf of mexico just off the Florida Panhandle in what would be the 1st female landing for u. S. Astronauts in 45 year is chinese found by dance has reportedly agreed to sell the u. S. Operations of its social media platform to talk the move is designed to stop donald trump using his president ial powers to ban the app while those are the headlines ill be back with more news here on out is there off to head to head is health care a human right or a commodity stay with us. Im mad house and in washington d. C. Lockdown as a result of the coronavirus for this special episode ill be going head to head with not one but 2 guests a republican and a democrat on opposite sides of one of the most divisive issues in u. S. Politics today how to fix the Health Care System especially in a time of pandemic. The richest country in the history of the world the health care than any other nation and yet American Time comes most other industrialized countries millions of people remain uninsured and many others suffer crippling debt from an out of control medical bills some democrats say its time for radical over 30000 people are dying this they dont get to a doctor with and should i want to have 2000000 people are going bankrupt because of that this functional it cool system that we currently have you know what i think we will test a medicare for all so you go payer system but republicans on the right say more government will only make matters worse with regard to the idea of whether or not you have a right to a health care you have to realize what that implies its not an abstraction im a physician that means you have a right to come to my house and conscript me means you believe in slavery my guest in the 2nd half of the show is a prominent supporter of senator Bernie Sanders will be making the case for a single payer government funded Health Care System government doesnt have to suck Obamacare Repeal but my 1st guest land he chen has advised republican president ial candidates on Health Policy and remain staunchly opposed to a state run Health Care System single payer Free Health Care medicare for all it might sound great but like all visions of utopia they ultimately produce a lot more harm than good. But the group of us believe that the time for a single payer for medicare for all has finally come and then his fellow republicans defending a cruel state to. Quote whose time is up and how much longer can the us justify a system to make some rich while keeping many other sick. Bloody trent thank you for joining me on head to head thank you mattie you said last year that the United States Health Care System is the finest in the world do you still stand by that description i do many i think the United States Health Care System is not perfect but i think it has a number of strengths that continue to persist innovation quality. Billett he for consumers to access the choice of different care options so yes i do believe the american Health Care System remains the finest in the world but learning even now in the age of the coronavirus with the us having the highest death toll in the world more americans dead than in world war one with a Health Care System that doesnt guarantee care to everyone thats riddled with racial and economic inequities and that clearly was not up to the challenge when the pandemic came knocking at its door. I think we have to take a step back the Health Care System itself has actually handled the situation quite well the leadership that weve seen in terms of some of the Political Leadership to animate the response to the coronavirus that has been faulty but the Health Care System itself i would argue has performed pretty well how can the Coronavirus Money expose perhaps the greatest floor of all in the Us Health Care model that employer based coverage Getting Health Care through would jump simply does not work especially given more than a 40000000 people in the us have lost their jobs as a result of the pandemic around 27000000 of them may have lost their Health Insurance too as a result of losing their jobs thats a savage indictment of the way you run health care in the u. S. Isnt it. Well i disagree i actually think in the United States we have a system that is premised as you noted on the employer being the primary provider of Health Care Health Care Insurance in the United States that is supplemented of course speier robust public system that covers people who are older as well as people who are poor but the employer sponsored system actually id argue has been the linchpin of a quality system of care we have in the us where people get access to a choice of different plans that oftentimes their employers help them to select you know health care can be very complicated and without the assistance of an employer or another entity that can help determine for example what some of those plans choices are it can be a very difficult field to navigate so the involvement of employers in the us i would argue has been a net positive now are there holes in the system absolutely i mean i you know there are 27000000 holdings in this is there are 27000000 homes and thats how many people have lost health care in recent months people have lost their jobs in canada in from in the u. K. In spain italy but none of those people lost their health care when they lost a job that only happened in the u. S. Well and certainly it is the case that we need to have more affordable broader options for people like that i dont think anyone doubts maybe for moments that we need a Health Care System that covers more people ive certainly advocated for that as well but lonnie im not even talking about the 30000000 people who started the crisis without insurance in the us im talking about 27000000 people who had perhaps great insurance with their jobs but when they lost their jobs they lost their health care that doesnt happen anywhere else in the rest well into the u. S. And thinks thats mad that you do it this way. Well if you think 1st of all the answer is not to abandon the entire employer sponsored system which does work for 100000000 or more americans i think the question becomes when people lose jobs coverage what is the best way to fill in those blanks and youre right i think there needs to be a way to fill in those blanks there need to be affordable choices that people can go to so that their health care isnt necessarily tied to their employer but im not willing nor am i ready to say that we need to discard the entire employer based system we have in the us that doesnt work quite well for the vast majority of americans so heres what shocks a lot of people both in the u. S. And around the world your country spends nearly twice as much on health care as the typical industrialized country americans also spend way more on Prescription Drugs than anyone else in the west and yet you consistently get worse results with Us Health Outcomes than other similar countries who spend way less than you compared to other members of the o. E. C. D. For example the u. S. Has the highest rate of avoidable deaths one of the highest number of hospitalizations from preventable causes one of the highest mortality rates from Heart Disease stroke alzheimers dementia obesity diabetes it has a Life Expectancy 2 years lower than the o. E. C. D. Average and again thats despite spending twice as much as everyone else on average well surely we spend too much theres no question about that so weve got to figure out a way to get those costs in that spending down but lets talk for a moment about outcomes because i think this is very important there is this perception that somehow the u. S. Health care system does not perform well on these basic measures what we do know is that for things like cancer mortality for example the United States does far better for certain kinds of heart conditions the United States does far better for certain kinds of of other conditions involving neurological issues or orthopedic issues the us system performs quite well so i think its fair to say im not because you are using does not do well under so many and all measures im not saying im not just reading but on a lot of messages highest rate of avoidable deaths one of the highest number of hospitalization from preventable causes a life expect. See lower than everyone else and youre spending twice as much not even like youre spending less so youre getting less you spend more and you get less how is that the finest Health Care System in the world i just dont get it well here again i think the fact that we do spend more is a challenge i think weve got to figure out a way to get spending down but what ive also said is that if you look carefully at some of our outcomes if you look carefully at what were doing what we are providing is we are providing the most innovative Health Care System in the world people have access to the most innovative treatments the most innovative cures and that access simply is not available in other countries its not available in other places not available in the u. S. And theres also a lot of its not available in the u. S. Either to 13 where its how much more broadly available in the u. S. How many id rather have you know us than it is in a place like canada well what is much more broadly available here than anywhere else even before the coronavirus americans were pretty unhappy with their Health Care System tens of thousands of people die every year because they dont have insurance and those who do have insurance have to deal with medical bills that are one of the leading causes some studies suggest the highest the biggest cause of personal bankruptcy in the u. S. Again something unique to the u. S. People dont go bankrupt because of medical bills in the u. K. Where im from what do you say to all those americans in debt about the finest Health Care System in the world. Well i would say 1st of all we do need to do more to fix something called surprise medical billing which has been in the news here in the us the idea that someone can show up for a treatment get treated but because that person that doctor that facility wasnt part of their Health Insurance they get charged a lot more money weve got to fix that problem so i agree with you there we have a problem that we need to fix is the answer that you would take the existing system we have and try and build on it to get more affordable options to more people or is it to toss out the system entirely and go to Something Different and my point again is the system is not perfect but it is better than i would contend than other systems around when you are in a minority of americans on this in gallup did a poll just a few months ago 63 percent of americans believe the Health Care System in this country has major problems or is in a state of crisis we talk about you know numbers and stats and abstract lets talk about some individuals cancer patient Susan Leclaire from florida late last year was on the verge of filing for bankruptcy a 2nd time because of all the debt she got from her Cancer Treatments the amazing Cancer Treatment you mentioned a moment ago and she had Health Insurance she was insured Jessica Tillman from illinois had a seizure disorder she had to file for bankruptcy in 2016 because of all the medical debt she got dealing with the disorder again she had Health Insurance isnt it outrageous what women like jessica and susan have to endure all in the richest country in the history of the will it is outrageous theres no question about it but its also outrageous that Cancer Patients in the u. K. Have to wait weeks for access to a specialist and weeks for access to their 1st treatment the same thing in canada its unconscionable that people have to wait that long to get access to basic treatment not just for cancers many but for conditions that are chronic conditions for conditions that are debilitating so i can tell you all sorts of stories from around the world that are unconscionable that are just as tragic as the stories youve told me that doesnt make the american Health Care System worse maybe it simply means that in each of these countries we have problems we need to solve in the u. S. Weve got to solve it in our own way just as people in the u. K. And canada have to solve theres no one is disputing. Other health guess is they dont have problems others are from the u. K. Theres a constant debate about problems and it just the canadians have to but everyone has debates about the Health Care System im talking about problems unique to the us none of those other rich well countries do people those problems are not unique to do they will corrupt because of their medical bills p. M. O. Let me give another example insulin people in canada dont die because they have to ration their insulin because of the high cost of insulin well they die because they dont get access to coverage they generally i mean they dont get access to doctors jeremy crowfoot 39 from dallas died last year because he couldnt afford his insulin mika fisher 26 from wisconsin died in 2018 couldnt afford his insulin alex smith 26 from minnesota died in 2017 i could go on and on this doesnt happen in canada or spain australia people dont die because they cant afford insulin well they die because they cant get access to care they cant get access to treatment they may have Health Insurance you cant you have to stay care in the air you and that is you cant get access to the care you need necessarily know now you may be able to see a g. P. But good luck seeing an ecologist good luck seeing an Orthopedic Surgeon right insulin here at seeing a cardiologist only today if you have died and then im talking specifically about insulin but thats a uniquely american bringing up problems here because they now who are you are you are right we have it we have a unique problem with Prescription Drug affordability in america we absolutely do and youre right about that but the answer again is do you take the system you have and do you throw it out and the answer seems to be you seem to be suggesting well the system works better in other countries because you dont have bankruptcy because you dont have high insulin costs my point is simply in those countries those systems dont work particularly well in certain conditions as well so you just have to you have to compare apples to apples do you believe the pharmaceutical industries have done a good job in this country given how high drug costs how high their profits are people are dying from lack of insulin well i think youve got to ask the question what do we want the pharmaceutical industry to do and fundamentally my argument is we want them to innovate we want them to have. New cures we want them to be pushing the cutting edge on covert 19 we want them to develop a vaccine we want them to help us understand what are the frontiers of medicine and science and we have a Health Care System in the us that allows these pharmaceutical companies to do just that and that is why again not perfect not everybody is affording the medicines they should have access to but the pharmaceutical companies are doing what we ask them to do by and large which is to innovate and to give us new cures well they dont innovate on their own the government innovate with them is you know the single biggest spender on innovation in this country is a gas minority of biomedical innovation spending is private sector i mean the National Institute of health is i believe 7 from 32000000000. 00 i just read each of these which is half as much as the entire pharmaceutical industry put together if you take rendez of it you mention the cove in 1000. 00 to 2. 00 asian one of the only drugs seems to work so far as a via guinea and science is the drug Company Behind it says its going to charge i dont know as a dose per patient with insurance even though they could break even judging a dollar a dose the u. S. Government spent 70000000. 00 helping develop doesnt it they didnt innovate that drug on their own and yet everyone else has to pay a fortune for it now well a few things 1st of all the pharmaceutical companies contribute a lot more in terms of investing in drugs that never make it to market that never make it past Clinical Trials but those are still costs that they have to absorb but beyond that for a moment i do think its the case that when you look at Something Like rendez of beer the jury is still out the jury is still out on how effective it is the jury is still out on how much it will cost and i would predict medically out of that it will cost 500. 00 a dose not to have 100. 00 thats what they said im just telling you what the company said again i think they are what theyre going to have to do is make a decision about where they want to price that drug given its efficacy because i can tell you something if its not effective theyre not going to be charging 500. 00 if there are enough that much is for sure so again weve got to see where that goes a lot of your republican youve advised them. Publican president ial candidates like mitt Romney Marco Rubio and right now in the midst of a pandemic your party is that the Supremes Court challenging the very existence of obamacare president obamas signature policy to expand Affordable Health coverage to millions of americans who didnt have it before and again in the midst of a pandemic is also proposing 920000000000. 00 of cuts to medicaid the Government Run Health Care program for low income families is it any wonder loni that people look at the Republican Party when it comes to health care and think youre just cruel youre willing to let people die without insurance. Yeah i completely understand that point of view many and i and i there are many things that the Republican Party and Republican Leaders have done over the years on health care that i dont agree with i think fundamentally it starts with needing to understand the value of universal care ive talked about this before other conservative analysts have talked about this as well that for a conservative philosophy of health care to not include some vision or expanding coverage so thats more affordable so that everyone can get access to it i think thats a problem now i will say this some of these public systems like medicaid do need to be reformed because it is not the case that you can simply continue spending as much as youre spending doing as much as youre doing and expect those programs to continue to exist the sustainability of those programs relies on good reform and thats why its important to try and think about efforts on even if i would agree with you and theres a big debate about sustainability and debt and how much debt trump is out it but the bigger question is in the middle of a pandemic as we discussed earlier in the program 27000000 people may have just lost their Health Insurance is now the time to be cutting medicaid is now the time to be going to the Supreme Court and saying to strike down the whole of obamacare including patients who have preexisting conditions 20000000 people would lose their insurance on top of the 27000000 who are lost if obamacare went tomorrow is this the time no wonder people say this is just hopeless yeah it probably isnt the time ok just putting coronavirus to one side just on the bigger issue why wouldnt a single payer system what people like Bernie Sanders call medicare for all which provides all americans with access to health care paid for by the federal government out of general taxation why would it not solve the problems of access of universal coverage of bankruptcy of high costs all the things weve talked about so far all the problems the plague the u. S. Health care system but you yourself a bit play the u. S. Health care system isnt that why a majority of americans according to the polls now support a single payer government funded medicare for all system because they know the case is undeniable well they supported until they find out more. And then the opposition increases look i think theres a few things 1st of all the idea of a single payer system the idea of having the government control the Health Care System control the providers that provide that health care is fundamentally based on the economic principle of rationing its fundamentally based on the notion of controlling the supply of health care and when you do that you can say people in the u. K. And people in canada and people in other places have Health Insurance and thats true but do they have health care and that i think is the challenge it would not have to prove they have Health Care Access to health care you think people in germany from doing so would be considered to be better systems than the u. S. They come up higher in most league table you think people in france dont have health care well they have health care they have Health Insurance but they dont have timely access to the care they might need i go back to the examples around cancer Heart Disease or some of the other conditions that we treat better here in the u. S. Because fundamentally we give people access not just to Health Insurance but to the french are better Health Outcomes given that a lot of your system to see is that into rationing lets lets talk about it will be seen as because he thinks about his Life Expectancy many many Life Expectancy is a function of many things beyond health not just a lot of the functions i mentioned plus people as a whole range where their little diseases we talked about a lot of into getting let me just pick you up and look at it again when preventable diseases it was also a measure thats related to social determinants of health let me pick up on rationing for a moment i mentioned earlier let me say it again this idea that the u. S. Doesnt russia that everyone else does you ration by excluding 10 percent of your population from the Health Care System 30000000 people just written off thats your way of rushing weve got to figure out a way to get access for those people by us will want to get lower i know i know you want to but im not saying would you would you concede that that is a form of russia as well you just cut 10 to 10 percent of your its not a from over healthcare we dont have waiting lists in the us we dont have waits for access to specialists we dont. Well you have a waste if you will have when we dont talk about it youre not do you have anything youll say only applies a grant to the 19 percent of people who have Health Care Everything else only applies to people with health care just. 30000000 people no im not airbrushing them out at all and saying what how long that way to get those how long the wait for the answer is waiting times what are the waiting times for the 30000000 people who dont have health care im guessing pretty long the 30000000 people who dont have access to health care unfortunately they are presenting in Emergency Rooms and getting care there but thats not cost efficient nor is it good we dont want them to be waiting to get preventive screenings to be getting the sorts of things they need to be getting ok just before we wrap up a lot of americans are very familiar with some form of single payer or universal health care a government funded health care you have the Veterans Administration which provides basically government funded Free Health Care to veterans you have medicare which provides Free Health Care centrally to pensioners you have medicaid which you mentioned earlier which provides support to low income families all government funded government run to one extent or another and when you look at the polling gallup does polling on this polling finds that people who use the veteran system medicare and medicaid are all happier with their care than people who get health care from their employer or book privately that kind of tells you something doesnt look out for 1st of all none of those systems are free they all have a cost theyre all imposed in the form of taxation or other costs to individual breach of the user is a brilliant obviously they cause a body in their frail theyre not using it that you know theyre there not to say free to the user either there are still fees and such that individuals have to pay the Veterans Administration is an interesting example im surprised you find polling that suggests its popular because its actually one of the least popular Health Care Systems in the u. S. In fact veterans by and large many of them are actually quite displeased with the system and what it was holding for as well and my thought is a polish single pemba 29th is 82 percent of veterans reported being somewhat satisfied with their Health Experience only 7 percent reported being dissatisfied somewhat salop poll somewhat about this poll look at. Shows that 77 percent of people who use veterans like it 76 percent of people use medicare like it 74 percent of people use medicaid like it but only 60 percent of people who have employer plan like it they clearly will popular thats what the polling says well look when you ask people whether they would want to go to a single payer system if it meant for example losing the plan they have losing access to the doctor they have in the hospital they like Single Payer Health care becomes dramatically less populous so we have to be careful in using opinion polling that can be manipulated certainly thats a fair plan so i think this kind of an idea that you could simply take the u. S. Health care system and graft on some kind of single payer government run system it just doesnt work because it works in limited settings doesnt mean its going to work every ok you make fair points and i want to put some of these points to my democratic guest in part 2 of this show just before we end our discussion one last question to you lanny isnt the problem that republicans like yourself simply dont consider health care to be a human right unlike 130 other countries around the world that do recognize a constitutional right to health care and look i know its not in the u. S. Constitution as a right but you cant really have life liberty the pursuit of happiness without good health care. You cant i believe every american ought to have access to Affordable Health care theres no question about that they would have a right this whole idea. Is a very interesting phrase but access to Affordable Care is not a right to health care the rights the rights that we have as americans are very clearly delineated and so i i i quibble sometimes with the idea of trying to make this political point that because you refuse to say that health care is a human right that somehow youre against health care for every american i couldnt disagree more i believe every american should have health care but that doesnt mean that it is a right in the same way that we have in shrine in our constitution so you do believe health care is a right thing and its really good everything you think her sunny dont believe health care i believe it because everyones like i believe every single american should have health care i dont believe health care is a right as stated in the constitution i do not know because its not lani well have to leave it there thank you so much for joining me on head to head thank you many thats it for part one of this special had to head up next to the other side of the argument ill challenge a prominent democrat and supporter of Bernie Sanders on why he backs a government funded medicare for all system here in the United States thats in part 2 coming up in a few moments after the news headlines. Rewind returns with a new series. And plain updates on the vast amount is a missed documentary see what its like. Rewind continues with how lean and cracked by with compelling the onion yavin the onion the sweetest part of the heart of this is that for the city were holding on by their fingernails to the 2 state solution today it is still barely possible on aljazeera where there is water there is life but finding it on australias arid desert is a skill few still possess they took us to a small wet spot in the sea in the desert and this was this is a very important place theyve been telling us about for the last 5 days who came to court and orders against all odds an ageing population this pos in on its knowledge the rainmakers of the outback on a. Form. Hello again i missed us here today in doha with the headlines here on aljazeera the calls for israels Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to resign are growing louder thousands of people have turned out in western ruth some of the largest protest in a decade theyre frustrated by the governments handling of the Coronavirus Crisis and theres also anger that netanyahu is still in power while facing corruption charges are a force that has more from west to east and this is now 3 weeks of really large protests we will mention behind him these are seen as the largest scenes of civil unrest that weve seen in israel for nearly a decade and its a mixture of motivations and groups some of the protesting against it you know 3 years old is Corruption Cases he is currently on trial that trial due to start in earnest at the beginning of next year with witnesses being called 3 times a week but theyve been joined and the movement has been buttressed by the fact that israel is laboring under the 2nd wave of growth a virus the number of corona virus infections across south africa has passed half a 1000000 but experts warn its not yet reached its peak more than 10000 new cases and 148 deaths were confirmed on saturday residents of the bahamas had been advised to stay cautious after hurricane e. C. S. Hit the u. S. National Hurricane Center says the worst affected area was New Providence thats the most populous island the storm packed winds of 120 kilometers an hour when it struck south of the capital in the south on saturday and forecasters warn that is ears is likely to pick up in strength as it heads north towards the u. S. State of florida it lost some speed while moving through the bahamas floridas governor has declared a state of emergency for some areas and the state is already struggling with one of the worst coronavirus outbreaks in the u. S. 2 nasa astronauts of undocked from the International Space station and are right now on their way back to earth theyre aiming for the gulf of mexico just off the Florida Panhandle in the 1st sea landing of u. S. Astronauts in 45 years chinese dance has reportedly agreed to sell the u. S. Operations of its social media platform to talk the move is designed to stop President Donald Trump from using his powers to ban the app well those are the headlines and now its back to part 2 of head to head is Health Care Human rights or a commodity stay with us. Welcome back to this special edition of head to head in washington d. C. Where were debating the u. S. Health care system should it be free for all and government funded or does the private sector do it best in part one my republican guest lani chen argued that more competition and Less Government whats needed to improve the american Health Care System one that he in the u. S. Conservative movement believe is already the best in the world. In the 2nd half of the show ill challenge. A top us democrat who ran for governor of michigan medical doctor and of the book politics on why he supports the exact opposite of a nationalized Health Care System as a cure to what he and the left argue is a broken unjust. Weve allowed our Health System to run amok with profit motives both on the providing side who gives you care and also on the paying side who pays for your care whats the simplest way to make sure everybody has health care in a country where nearly 10 percent of us dont you just make sure that the government provides it but does u. S. Health care really need to be overhauled in such a radical way as chan and others are quick to point out the u. S. Is a leader in medical innovation is home to some of the worlds top doctors there now are 29 Nobel Prize Winner and boasts more nobel prizes in medicine than any other country theres also the cost factor americans are much less keen on changing the system when they hear it could cost tens of trillions of dollars so is the need for socialized Medicine Health care reality or is it just ideological fantasy and can medicare for all as its known really overcome opposition from the powerful Health Care Industry as well as resistance from establishment democrats and the Republican Party and. I welcome the debate this ground game ought to be call medicare or nah. Abdul ill say it thank you for joining me on the head to head matthew thank you so much for having me in your book healing politics you lay out youll support for medicare for all which is senator Bernie Sanders a signature plan calls for a National Government funded whats often called single payer Health Care System here in the u. S. You call the plan a simple elegant approach to providing everyone with Health Insurance how so well medicare for all is a government Health Insurance plan that would cover every Single Person from cradle to grave d without having to worry about copayments without having to worry about doubles or premiums again words that nobody understands because their insurance mumbojumbo and instead we would all pay into a tax system that would cover all of us so well talk about that in this interview but before we get to that the colds for Medicare Fraud have intensified havent they since the start of the pandemic since the coronavirus got going is it your own human that if the United States had medicare for all a single payer system like canada like the u. K. That we would not have seen the same levels of death and suffering in this country that we have seen. I think theres no doubt about it lets just remember that weve got 40000000 americans who are off the payrolls and in a system that relies on people being employed to get Health Insurance coverage when then they become unemployed because of say a pandemic they that lose their Health Care Coverage in the middle of the pandemic thats whats happened 47000000 new uninsured people in this system it makes no sense and have we had a medicare for all system it would not have mattered what happened to your employment you would have health care and you would have to worry about that but beyond that theres also an incentive question when you have 7000 Health Insurers which we have in the United States whos left with the responsibility of preventing disease in the 1st place in one of them would say well if we invested in prevention it would really pan out because people move between insurers often and thats why theres really no incentive to invest in prevention in Public Health in our country and weve seen the consequences of that with continued cuts to agencies like the c. D. C. And state what will you say no dont say that do you say theres no doubt that the u. S. Would be better off if you had a single payer Health Care System going into this crisis how then do you explain italy the u. K. Which have a longstanding single payer Health Care Systems universal health care and yet they have been hit hardest among the countries in the west they have the highest death tolls from covert 90 in europe britain and italy even the president ial candidate who your party has nominated you you support you said on his Health Care Reform committee joe biden he said and i quote with all due respect to medicare for all you have a single payer system in italy it doesnt work that it has nothing to do with medicare for all that would not solve the problem at all when you look at it really hes got a point has me with all due respect to Vice President biden whom i do support we are 4 percent of the worlds population we account for 25 percent of all deaths to go in 1000 it has not worked here and if you look at the long term the long tail right that comment has really aged all that well simply because. In italy theyre looking at being able to send their kids to school next fall theyre not dealing with a 2nd surge in fact theyve flatten the curve and instead youve got all this come on i dont know if youre a democrat you could argue that has more to do with the fact that donald trump is not the Prime Minister of italy when you look at Health Care Systems though the death tolls in the u. K. As high a pick capita death toll from covert 19 than the us it has the National Health service a single payer Health Care System it didnt stop britons from dying in massive numbers so ill say this a big focus obviously you know joe biden would have handled this situation far better than donald trump did donald trump continues to deny basic science continues tonight that were dealing with in the 1st place so you know lets lets lets also agree that this is our bigger issue than simply what kind of Health Care System country ass lets also be clear that in our system hospitals were facing bankruptcy at the same time that they were facing comit 19 and though that fact alone is enough to ask whether or not this Health Care System ought to stand as it as it is because the reason why is because all of our hospitals in this country are run on a profit margin and those Profit Margins come from the kinds of cases that had to be canceled when hospitals were facing a potential pandemic and so they had to shut down their wife why as they were getting case upon case of coded 1000 now not only finding a pandemic but also fighting terror in a open that is absurd and that may not happen in italy it didnt happen in the u. K. Wouldnt happen in a system where government actually supports hospitals to stay open to provide the public good having health care in the middle of pandemic but lots of death and suffering did happen in the u. K. And italy despite this ingle pay system and despite all the advantages of single payer which youve mentioned a few already it does come with a tradeoff as my republican guest in part one line each and pointed out its quote based on the economic principle of rationing. Lani and others argue that if youre not rationing the number of people who get the new rationing the care itself and thats indisputable isnt it i mean im from the u. K. The n. H. S. Has many advantages over the us but the reality is that you dont have all the same access to the same specialty treatments that you do in the us suddenly not in the same quick a timeframe that you have in the us think about well what loni is implying here we just celebrated in our country. We believe a certain set of ideals we hold these truths to be selfevident that all people are created now the idea of rationing care by people is basically saying that some people can have all the health care they want need and some people just have to go without. I dont know that i am comfortable living in a society where we just take that as the operating framework i would much rather me and everyone else have health care if say they have a heart attack or a cancer or cobra 19 then this issue a should we care we dont matter what you think were good on your own and i really think i dont even abdul but it comes with the right hold on it comes with the right why not own the fact that when you do that people are going to get less access to treatment are going to have to wait longer and americans dont want to rightly or wrongly americans dont want to they dont want to system like the n. H. S. Or the canadian model where you have to wait for hip and Knee Replacement you have to wait for cataract surgery you have to wait for some Prescription Drug want to be honest about the fact that yes we will give Health Care Free to everyone but it will take much longer to get the treatment you currently get if we want to be if we want to be honest about it lets also realize that in our country even if you are unsure if youre one of the lucky 90 percent that gets access to health care youre still waiting in line for treatments and not only that youre paying on the back end of those treatments and so you may be insured but yes if you need to see a specialist for your cancer the high probability is youre going to be waiting in line too and not only that youre going to have to pay substantial amounts of money just to get the health care you already paid for in the front up to links i know that some of this is also just what you already write how long i dont you know this you would argue actually youre a doctor you dont know this the numbers dont support you when it comes to specialist treatment the Commonwealth Fund which im sure youve heard of Health Think Tank says canada reported the largest percentage of patients canada which Bernie Sanders often trumpets as his model canada reported the largest percentage of patients waiting more than full weeks for a specialist appointment and more than full months for elective surgery in canada for example 18 percent of canadians waited 4 months or longer for surgery compared to 3 percent of americans why would americans say you know lets switch to the canadian model why would they say that when they have those numbers ill just ill just ask you. This are all are all specialists the same so it meant the if you need a cardiologist would you rather be in a system where youre going to move to the front of the line because you need a cardiologist independent of whether or not youre in shirt versus an Orthopedic Surgeon now dont get me wrong if you have an orthopedic problem you want to see your doctor but in their system they focus on needed care more than elective care ok and i would rather live in a society and im i think you would too given your experience in the u. K. Let me talk about where you have read. That youre going to get the care you need when you need it abdul qadir your life even if it may have a point where you. Are not so would you call cancer life threatening illness well ill tell you this the number one cause of bankruptcy in our side i asked of the article did you call canned water a not for it being able to subdue is a very simple question. And yet you were diagnosed with Breast Cancer Prostate Cancer you want to be in the u. S. Dont you i mean youre much more likely to survive from such a cancer in the u. S. Than in most European Countries thats what all the stats say if i have a 0 deductible Health Care Plan then yes that is true id rather be United States the problem though is that too many people dont have that a disease with arms of people getting im not getting that but are going to go bankrupt im not im not defending i dont im not really these pointed loni a paul wanted im also going about survivability if its estimated according to a study in 2015 from 1902 to 2010 its estimated that the u. S. Averted almost 67000 deaths from Breast Cancer compared with western europe 60000 deaths from Prostate Cancer quarter of a 1000000 deaths from Colorectal Cancer thats a lot of people who are alive today thanks to the u. S. Healthcare system you want to get rid of except for the numbers on medicare for all suggest that we send about 68500 lives if we if we were passed medicare for all here and thats the question at hand here is. Whether or not i want to be in u. K. Is not whether or not i want to be in canada the question at hand is would i rather live in the United States under medicare for all and 68 1500. 00 a year we would save under medicare for all of the study is also shoddy work is being disputed by a lot of people thats one study as you know other studies a lot of people a brother who is 68000 and they say plenty of studies all agree that youre more likely to live if you get cancer in the us than in europe lets lets prove that i would have to remember and studies that show is there any study that medicare for all would cost lives in america anyone well if you is there any study that shows youre going to cancel numbers and you could back canada in the u. S. Well youre better youre better off in the u. S. Are we cherry picking out i mean if you said what youre setting up you said you were. A life regardless i picked the other ok lets lets broaden it out im sorry go im saying im saying look there are a lot of people who are untreated who die of diseases that are not cancer cancer is not the leading cause of death leading cause of death is our masters hes we have no incentive to prevent in this country a lot of people whom if they get a heart attack they make it stabilized and then will not have the care that they need over the long term ok will die younger because they dont have that health care i dont want to live in a society where any of my neighbors and my friends and my loved ones have to potentially go bankrupt because they got sick or not care or all thats what we have United States so the question that we have to ask ourselves is are we going to invest as america not you can not canada as america in the system that Everybody Health care that would save us all money and i will increase and i take your point i take your point but im not the want to raise candidates Bernie Sanders a candidate youve got to constantly mentions canada even with all the legitimate criticisms of the u. S. Health care system which you very eloquently raise so far surely you would agree that the u. S. Is still number one in the world when it comes to innovation in health care in terms of developing new drugs in terms of new treatments in terms of health care across the board the u. S. Leads the world and many argue that may. It care for all would kill that innovation with its obsession with cost cutting and reducing pay and reducing spending it would kill innovation in the u. S. And the u. S. Is still number 1. 00 in you know innovation surely you would consider well no i would say that the reason the United States is the best place to innovate when it comes to health care is because we have institutions publicly funded like the National Institutes of health every single new drug that has been created over the past several years has had some benefit from money taxpayers invest into innovation through the end d and so i would actually argue that that doesnt go away simply because youre telling corporations who by the way i those drugs from biomedical who started usually has an eye on it last that somehow theyre not going to be able to profiteer on the back end to the tune of billions and billions of dollars take a drug all over us right now doesnt delete whole in the u. S. Right now spends more than half of all r. And d. Spending is done in the u. S. More than half thats with Us Health Care model that you dont like and you want to change youre saying we can change the model throw out the entire baby with the bathwater and well still lead the world on innovation will still lead the world on r. And d. Well still fund the worlds innovation that seems hard to believe that we can throw out the bathwater well throw out the baby and the reason is the baby has tax fair for taxpayers come on thats not true like tax spends a lot but so do private companies in fact private companies spend more than that and i age to be an age has already know all the risk yes youre right the private sector comes in and invests a problem though is that these corporations are a lot more interested in how much money they can make off that it sets the price way too expensive so that people dont actually get the treatment that they need let me ask you this countries like france and germany which have done better than the u. S. On the coronavirus which whose Health Care Systems are often rated much higher than the us they have universal coverage but they dont have people single payer systems where the government pays for everything they have big private element to why you and senator Bernie Sanders so insistent on getting rid of all. All private Health Insurance and getting just one government funded system in its place why are you such ideologues on this issue when other countries around the world are willing to kind of have a bit above well ill tell you there are also many many countries around the world that are doing it the way senator sanders and i are proposing i have a lot of respect for the french in the german system and lets be honest right its critical for us to move toward more coverage thats more equitable right away and i will say that i disagree with the way that we ought to do it but i do believe deeply in and Vice President bidens goals in doing that things that if we ask ourselves with the most efficient way to tackle the biggest problems in our Health Care System are to cover everyone to reduce the bloated prices in our system to do so equitably medicare for all is the most efficient most affordable it is the most equitable true and so i can read of why is private health care when the u. K. Hasnt done not canada which you often invoke hasnt done that in canada i believe they take out plans to cover vision dental Prescription Drugs why why such ideologues on the issue of private Health Insurance when even the u. K. And canada ill tell you i talk to my canadian colleagues i talk to my british colleagues and both of them tell me that the Biggest Challenges to the canadian Health Care System or the n. H. S. Are the encroachment of private corporations trying to privatized the services that they provide if you look at the biggest frustration that canadians have in their Health Care System is that they have to rely on these private plans for things that ought to be included in the public plan and my point is that if were going to rethink the american Health Care System lets do it right lets learn from our colleagues in those other countries and lets make sure were covering the things that they want however what about the political viability of medicare for all regardless of how good a about the policy itself is but he saw what he was running for the president ial nomination of the Democratic Party said he would publish a medicare for all bill in his 1st week of office and get it passed into law in his 1st term but those were kind of ridiculous claims werent they at the time. And there were there were hyperbole medicare for all cannot get through congress especially when you have centrist Senate Democrats dead against it as of course every single republican in the house and the senate its just a nonstarter well ill say that joe biden is is the democratic nominee and we are going to work with that administration to cover as many people as affordably inequitably as possible that being said we cannot take our eyes off the goal in the goal is medicare for all but its a laundry list if you go about a month to the time said by Bernie Sanders thats why a lot of people say look even if i like the idea of medicare for all in theory abduls very convincing hes convinced me its a great idea the reality is not going to happen any time soon and why pretend it is when you look at congress and you know Bernie Sanders was wrong to say he would get it done in his 1st term theres no way even democrats you know how many of them are Senate Democrats signed on to Bernie Sanders bill 14 a 3rd of the kind of get a majority with. I feel like i feel like that this conversation is sort of passed the reality again joe biden is the nominee and i will tell you that the beautiful thing about democracy is that you can create massive amounts of change if the people want it and what Bernie Sanders has succeeded in doing is making medicare for all lingua franca in our Health Care Debate and you look at where young people in particular are going where they want in their Health Care System they want medicare for all and if they dont like the centrist democrats and certainly the republicans who are representing them then they have the opportunity to vote him out for somebody who will support medicare or force them to change their perspective on it because thats what they demand and there is no way forward on medicare for all unless we are able to build the kind of movement that makes hockey abdul one of the many reasons why so Many Democrats not just republicans wont back medicare for all its because of what they considered to be the astronomical price tag associated with it according to some studies would cost more than what the federal government spends on Social Security medicare and medicaid combined one study from medicare for all would have cost approximately 33. 00 trillion dollars during its 1st 10 years of implementation how do you get Political Support for a plan that could cost 3. 00 trillion dollars a year for the next 10 years because it would save the average American Family 2400. 00 a year the fact is that people are getting wise to the ridiculous amount of money that were paying into bureaucracy that does not work because replicates itself through 7000. 00 Health Insurers and while the pockets of c. E. O. To the 210. 00 to 30000000. 00 a year we can do a lot better and medicare for all would do that so yes it would be expensive as a Government Program but when it comes to real people and their pockets and their considerations of where they could be putting their money im pretty sure that 2400. 00 could be put to far better use than some c. E. O. s out its interesting you say the public a wising up to this and you know theyre ok with spending trillions dollars more because theyll save money but the polling doesnt say that at all in fact. The polls show that medicare for all has a majority support in this country until you tell people that their taxes will have to go up to pay for this multitrillion dollar plan in fact if you tell them the money delays their support drops even more thats the reality when americans are told you will have to pay more will in taxes they say no thanks to medicare for all you guys just avoid that when you make a case but also when you tell people that theyll save money overall and that theyll actually get to see any doctor that they want their support goes back up ill be honest with you look the debate over the picture aside from the doctors just let me just say it with the polling numbers Kaiser Family foundation found 71 percent of americans support medicare for all in the abstract but when theyre asked are you willing to pay higher taxes to support up to 37 percent thats a big drop of 2 its of course a big drop but again then you poll them and you ask them do you recognize that it would save you money overall all your premiums all your copays all your deductibles go away and people support rises back up if you look at what studies have shown 22 out of 22 study the survey in a recent review article showed. The medicare for all would save both our overall Health Care System money and it would save individuals money 450000000000. 00 a year from now its in article 100000000000. 00 to businesses 2400 dollars per family on average that kind of savings is something as you do all that nonsense because im criticized for cherry picking numbers for you know picking the best Case Scenarios for overestimating how much money would be saved you know there was a study shows talk about her kids are. Going to sort of its not just a conservatives im a stranger dollars you know abdool let me just jump in its also the urban institute which is a center left think tank which also said more than 30 trillion dollars i think Bernie Sanders himself in the past has conceded 1716. 00 trillion youll some said it will be expensive lets not beat around the bush before we finish one last question your partys president ial candidate joe biden whos Health Care Reform committee. You know system and who you want to rooting for has taken more money in donations from health care and pharmaceutical industries than any other candidate in the race hes dead against medicare for all to the point that he even suggested if congress were to possibile he might not sign it when it got to his desk now given medicare for all is such a big issue for many on the left a deal breaker for them how do you plan to get your fellow progressives in the leftists and bernie supporters to get behind joe biden and defend when he so dead against the signature policy of the left medicare for all well my message of progress on this is Pretty Simple we can spend the next 4 years fighting for more health care for americans at a more affordable rate or we can spend the next 4 years fighting against the repeal of the units yet and i believe that joe biden recognizes that right now we need leadership to take on things as basic as recognizing the Science Behind this and yes i supported Bernie Sanders in the primary but for damn sure im going to support joe biden in the general because i know what donald trump would mean for people who look like me and millions across this country for whom 4 more years of donald trump would devastate their lives and livelihoods abdul say it will have to leave it there thank you so much for joining me on head to hat and its always a privilege and thank you for a vigorous conversation thats our show head to head will be back next week. Kovan 19 is seen a war of words escalate between the u. S. And china challenge us general Robert Spaulding and british diplomat and author kerry brown on whether the west is entering into a new cold war with china in a special edition of head to head you want to probably add on china to match the muslim not quite stock proposal we need a strict vetting process is to tight finally tell me again beijing we have a china centric 12 and then a world which is not china centric head to head on out his iraq. How theyre amateur thunderstorms materials some of thunderstorms floating around in the plains states the ohio valley moving northeast whats the eastern side of the great lakes which is not atypical this time the it but maybe more obvious is whats happening down here in florida that is a hurricane the category one its not likely to get me stronger but thats enough to cause some trouble in the lowlands on the eastern side of florida now beyond that we go to monday and tuesday the likelihood is that go up the east coast of the u. S. But were not sure exactly where its about the white doesnt line somewhere within that wherever it goes its going to be notable flash flooding probably the major risk elsewhere remarkably kwacha few showers here and there of the high ground of the west. Dropping science because of whats happening in florida there isnt much energy left for the rest theres a possible new development his you can see but thats over water otherwise apart from the daily large showers in the lead on the wind with als your great until monday maybe tuesday to regenerate some showers for example of nicaragua or honduras or to this. In south america theres a lot all snow to come in patagonia which is just the bottom of your screen here otherwise its a drawn looking picture terms the risen again in paraguay with a sense youre a surprisingly high midwinter city one. On counting the cost the wealth of banks Prime Minister says that paris make is built on the backs of slaves how much does britain know and reparation how the pandemic could wipe out latin americas heart and social and economic gains plus wild cards missing billions counting the cost on aljazeera. Be the hero world needs right. Washing. Thousands call from Benjamin Netanyahu his resignation and the largest protest yet against his leadership. How again i missed on the table says al jazeera live from doha also coming up beijing sends Health Officials to hong kong for the 1st time as the territory races to massively expand coronavirus testing