Mudded for defending the environment the rights Group Global Witness says a Record Number of activists well killed last year so while an environmentalist being protected this is a. Hello and welcome to the program i mean wrong around the World Environmental activists of being arrested jailed even killed for trying to protect our planet the u. K. Based Group Global Witness has recorded the highest number of murders since it began its annual survey a decade ago 212 People Killed in 2019 for campaigning against issues such as illegal logging mining and deforestation Global Witness believes the rise may be due to activists becoming more outspoken about Climate Change colombia had the highest death toll at 60 fall this activist survived and involve grenades and automatic weapons for resisting illegal mining in her community. Being an environmentally did today is a threat to colombia it is a threat in colombia and it is a threat to world wide because here we are fighting to live projects or to political project there is a political project of death and when we confront large scale mining we confront this extractive mining we confront a model that is destroying the environment would become a military target you know what they dont have the name a lot of us we do not have weapons but we do have a voice to continue defending the future of a country to continue defending the future of humanity its also a huge problem in the philippines its one of the worst places in asia for attacks against environmental defenders the number of murders there has risen to 43. 00 the philippines im colombia accounts for more than half of all the reported killings last year 2 thirds of which happened in latin america the Amazon Region alone or 33 deaths and 40 percent of all victims were from indigenous communities and while the most number of deaths were among defenders who oppose mining and large scale agriculture logging remains the sector with the highest increase in global killings since 2018. Lets bring in our guests in london we have chris madden hes a senior campaigner at Global Witness and the author of this report in sao paolo we have multimedia journalists and in jakarta we have why you put on a hes a Campaign Manager at the Indonesian Forum for environment welcome to you all i want to begin london with you chris mann 212 people its a big number of people that have been killed a Record Number as youve pointed out but can you just explain to me when what do we mean when we mean environmentalist were not really talking about scientists or activists who are tying themselves to trees were talking people within the local community who are just fighting and defending their rights to farm their land to go about their business and theyre being put under pressure by big business is that right. Thats absolutely right yes so we need to find land and environmental defenders as anyone who takes a stand for their own land rights or rights to have a safe and healthy environment and do so in a peaceful manner and as you said there is a people often a Community Level coming against you know large scale industry whether thats mining logging or actual large scale agribusiness how confident are you in the numbers i mean whats your methodology when it came to actually putting this report together. Well certainly weve used the same Methodology Since 2012 so we rely on public am online reports of these attacks against land environmental defenders of the sea we are restricted by what is Available Online so there are you know jurisdictions in areas where we cant access information where there isnt a free press but certainly you know our methodology encapsulates all of the information where we can find that information so its never going to show the the full absolute picture but its an indication of the trend and as you said this year unfortunately we have to again say that attacks are rising against an environmental problem well its good to see how in sao paulo youve been covering this story for a very long time youve been taking a look at what it means to be an environmentalist and human rights activist who is being attacked by a the government or big business are you confident in Global Witnesses numbers. Yeah and i think i would say the Global Witness is numbers are extremely conservative quite frankly. Usually according to local organizations that we see here in brazil at least the numbers are far higher so and its often very difficult to get a full reading of these numbers often these are crimes at a committee. In very far flung areas murders that we dont hear about murders that are often covered up by local authorities because most of the time in far flung places like where i report from in the amazon in brazil usually if the if the or thora ts are not at least complicit with this violence against local communities then they are directly involved in somewhere and of and how these might come in the form of corrupt local mayors corrupt local politicians of different stripes or corrupt local businessmen and in brazil add in latin america in general especially the Amazon Region the violent scramble for Natural Resources and land is on at any cost basically and environmental defenders as featured in the Global Witness reports are the they really bear the brunt of this violence and let me go to jakarta now and where you put donna are you confident in global when this is reports on the numbers or do you think theyre either too low or too high and the fact that you know because we have many part of our that that that they can be for the. Because after that the government and he said in the new investment lower the upon think is the. Pricing and the numbers and well be back on them because not all in the name of the investment and them off the Economic Management of the session and many think game especially at night in. Extractive industries i have an Infrastructure Project almost. The biggest come from the initiative. That the fact what we facing now not just the environmental activists including the peace and love organization. Chris huhne both our guest there have said your numbers want you to look well certainly i mean it goes but so what i was saying about what we require to be able to include a particular attack you know. We need to have 3. Credible Online Sources or am reports directly from partners working on closer to the ground and more where the local circumstances obviously as a global report we. We cant know about Everything Everywhere so its really just trying to show that the general trend correlate and i would add as well you know we are also trying to draw attention to the broad range of attacks that land environmental vendors face so its the killings i guess is the sort of ultimately tragic cant but before that state happens theyre often facing you know. Death threats and nonlethal attacks criminalisation by by government as i think sam mentioned and you know in a whole range of attacks that again often really doesnt get reported so its very hard to track and it is still a systematic global level some is a very interesting point when i was in pakistan i covered more than a few on a few occasions illegal logging nafi is now these were people who were given the rights to log but they would be a mafia it would be they would take more log more wood than they needed and they would oftentimes just bully people who actually complained about them its a fairly similar situation in sao paulo the job also narrow is not a big environmentalist now actually he is hey has ties to these groups or right whether its legal groups big business agribusiness but hes not hes not doing anything about this is it. Well look i mean the president was elected president of of sonora he was elected with overwhelming support from the agribusiness sector and this is a group that you know come on the significant presence in congress a significant influence in congress and you know they essential are lobbying the whole time to reduce the size of indigenous reserve open up indigenous reserves to mining. And on the ground like i say in far flung places far away from capitals these places are often very poor Lauren Forstmann is you know minimal or often it corrupts these messages from the president that oh were going to reduce the sat the size of indigenous reserve that has a direct effect on the ground that means directly often through networks of misinformation sometimes fake news even heard about this before fake news messages going around what the blogs and ari said that its ok to go into indigenous reserves you heard about this on the order we wow indigenous reserve at the beginning of the president s mandate at the beginning of 2019 the direct effect of when you have a voice like this coming from the executive power is that often on the ground this translate into illegal invasions and often these illegal invasion end up in conflict and very often in mother as we can see from the Global Witness reports well youve heard on a is the mass heres a problem when it comes to a trying to get information but actually more importantly trying to defend these people from being killed its this is a very murky world were talking about right. What the mafia problem we call it here the problem is the mafia is inside the government because in many cases in our law know when these sound broad get or the ex not even dust in the sand it s. This that they deep for the economic that its meaning the military get in just in that conflict that little bit problem many parliamentary members the lead that you are in badly they have this solemn sense in some exciting thing that these lets make the problem is very complicated from the go about it ness of that lease that is the killer from denver and that lease group but there are no were still on pandemics in place and but our lead in conflict to be confit in indonesia then for us the mafia is faithfully as they see it being the parliament and the amendment members the hottest part of the government but the problem that leg allies spent by the new low in indonesia like the example for the. Mining well be have a problem in that lower east they can call the military part of the company when the government decided some extent theyve been dustiest out of this that they do it for the economy that will be a problem because they are low investment in our low the and its saga quality and drum and they cannot soon by the government but the fact that this man a big difference and the gap between the right low and the and the failed idea that the problem is many Indigenous People of many level are going to say yes and or the peace and union defacing that exclude the 1000000 that. Then you have what i asked you call it. In my. Copy. Of the guy christmas in london well he may well you make some very good point a lot of the people that are being killed are in such remote communities the Indigenous People the people who perhaps dont know their rights because they simply completely isolated how do you deal with defending those people other than the report which highlights exactly that but how do you put pressure on governments actually take those people and their right seriously. But thats exactly what were arguing with and governments have have that duty to protect human rights regardless of where they are in their own countries and i know that theyre clearly failing to live up to that. You know one aspect of it is to get to address the level of impunity that these attacks occur randa so were seeing that across many Different Countries columbian for example some estimates as high as 90 percent of these kind of cases never get to that to any kind of outcome of justice and so that. That duty chris pretty that protects the human rights of the citizen is there but also you know been calling on governments to to address this impunity issue and to fully investigate the the attacks against and and its not just government says wow this is the companies have a role to play and were calling on on or all Companies Operating in areas where there are conflicts with communities to have a 0 tolerance policy on reprisals against offenders and to fully. Comply with any investigation and of attacks against them but this is just isnt happening against Indigenous People in far flung parts of the world 2017 in Standing Rock in dakota in the u. S. There were huge protests people were arrested for defending the environment a lot of human Rights Groups in america have said that that was a trampling of human rights were talking about you know a society that prides itself on the rights of its people youre dealing with a very wide ranging nature here i mean its going to be nothing is going to be governments is going to be western governments i mean where do you start how do you start to defend these people. Well i mean 1st of all theres very. Well respected and effective organizations working on the ground and local and National Level to to push their governments to to make the changes that i talked about. But theres also thats exactly why we put out this report is to highlight the issue is globally and to draw attention to the sort of barriers that these organizations are facing to get these policy changes over the line and. I mean i think you know standing right you know there are there are wins there are rem victories that have been happening but one of the things we were definitely keen to put in this report and you know whether or not thats. The ecuadorian were only people winning their right to to reject or Oil Exploration in their territory or. Internation born your own and indigent Indigenous Peoples and securing long title over their lands so there are good good news stories within this obviously. Its a massive issue in that a lot needs to be done. But this sort of International Attention to is a key aspect. We are talking about International Attention sam khouri in that the likelihood of the brazilian president actually knowing about this report and taking it seriously is probably going to be quite low given his pronouncements on the environment in the past. Well look i mean its you know no one reporter no one group no one activist no one ever changes a governments mind its the collective efforts and when we look at whats happening in brazil right now we are starting to see some at least some very very very small changes to eschew coming to coming from the executive mainly due to pressure from European Investment fund which is basically threatening to devise the divest from brazil you know these Asset Managers that control trillions in investment nest threatening to divest from Brazilian Companies from brazilian bonds if there isnt you know if the forestation isnt slowed or hosted you know the power station is directly linked to murders of indigenous and other environmental defenders in brazil the murder of powdery new pall of apollo calling it was a job which is mentioned in the Global Witness report he was a forest guardian but defended the forests against logging groups and was killed you know directly because of his work so when you ask if its one report that would change the governments mind im sure the president is probably aware of this report theyre actually very sensitive especially at the moment to any bad press coming from abroad when it comes to the environment whether its one report one individual one activist no but as a collective effort you know a series of reports a series of activists a series of of actions taken by activists in the benders we are starting to see some small changes here but its up to Civil Society to keep up that type. Well you put on a in jakarta isnt it isnt it a case that actually these companies are far too big too powerful too politically connected for any one government to actually pull prussia to try and sort out a situation where 212 people are being killed internationally just for defending the environment for us no we way i understand the investment we had the problem. And for them and i stand up will be bottom then paul asked not only pushing the Global Community including the u. N. To taking steps forward not just for indicting get men on business on human rights but east legalist been doing it. Because in fact is fading if it is just the front of the human thats found that including in indonesia the our problem no the government they want to say. About manson specification but theyll cut what i become more or less gas jenna out escort weight corp thats really be a problem because we know many investment got to indonesia but in either say they just lose day and what the problem and the fear at their company dilemma because at least we if we just work for. Many a long time then or in the next year and i think the infest the Financial Press will be good if they can be they laid out in the piece the state of processing in the lead then we hope that can they do see in the concrete. Defeat the uncommon in the. Mosque that 80 roads then yes the display case chrisman in london while you makes a point i dont to mystic point that actually an internationally binding treaty by the un for example might be the way forward to defend these people and to take a look at the environment generally but there are several treaties in place when it comes the environment but people are walking out of them the u. S. Has walked out of several environmental treaties and so on trump has been in power how are you going to persuade people that yet more treaties are needed. Well i think that the treaty that while he was talking about would be would be the mom and the tree end of it the ones in the u. N. System at the moment are important but they dont operate and National Level in the us and thats put International Law but i think. From a business perspective i think the Civil Society in continuing needs to continue to push the Business Case aspect of this right so. The where where there are conflicts with communities is is it bad for business essentially so companies actually want to wow and investors are behind them need to be doing their Due Diligence in terms of the community. Hoping to operate and to ensure that any human rights impact mitigate against and to ensure that where there is opposition or peaceful protest that the people are allowed to do that and so youre aware but chris surely the point is this yes those Companies Want to do well yes some of them want to divest their money from from the Amazon Region because of deforestation but those companies are in control they handing over to local groups local companies local companies are hiring out local mafias getting involved there are plenty of the companies can say look were doing as much as we can but actually on the ground the people that are harming environmentalist arent necessarily being paid by those Big Companies theyre contractors isnt that an issue at. Absolutely thats an issue but i think its something that were increasing you see as not being taken as an argument anymore that was. Seen as it is a legitimate excuse sort of 10 years ago but supply chain Due Diligence is now you know firmly in trying to know a lot of different standards in a different and articulations at an interNational Level at any any good company would be during Due Diligence throughout all of that supply chain and thats the mystery and thats definitely what Civil Society is pushing for to be rolled out across. Well i want to thank all our guests Chris Bowden Sam Kelly and why you pradelle and thank you too for watching you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website out to 0 dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are at a. J. Inside story for me in ron howard and the entire team here in doha and you know. 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