A part of this with us and do it right there in that box ok now i have a question for you right off the top of the show who wants to live in a full on police state with with complete surveillance powers right now for those of you who are on the fence going to show you a video on my computer here check this out let me start this at the beginning this is what a Police State Looks Like these are scenes coming out of Portland Oregon recently those are a crowd of american citizens exercising their constitutional right to gather in protest you can see them being beaten with the tongs charge that by police and Police Vehicles i mean if youre worried about attack against america or americans the calls coming from inside the house that this is what it looks like let me take you to another video real quick this ones gone viral recently and we put the van video. What are you doing heres your words what are you doing. Doing wrong heres the alerts from. What is going on and we need to know who are you thinking then she wants you out what you know. Ok your final gets you out program. We got you friend we got you here the culture in the world the media would be called they got disappearing a citizen its deadly serious but at the same time just watching police dressed up like their delta force of putting someone in a vehicle of choice for soccer moms makes us realize how ridiculous they are and of course all this really is about silencing protests right so surveillance is a tool used by the powerful to as one of our guests will say today immunize governments from the forces of change so dont look to those same governments to do something about it in fact heres what President Trump thinks about whats going on in portland right now. More federal Law Enforcement that i can tell you in portland theyve done a fantastic job theyve been there 3 days and they really have done a fantastic job in a very short period of time no problem they grant him lot of people in jail their leaders these are advocates these are not protesters people say protests and these people are americas these are people that hate our country and were not going to let it go forward and ill tell you what the governor and the mayor and the senators out there theyre afraid of these people so do you want him knowing everything about you where youre going when youre going who youre talking to what youre planning to do what can we do about it were joined by in exciting panel of guests today to talk about exactly that and im going to ask them to introduce ourselves themselves and begin with silky in london. Hi yes im so call im the director of big brother watch with a privacy and Civil Liberties organization. And i think silky i appreciate that and claire in washington d. C. Hi im Claire Garvey im a senior associate with the center on privacy and Technology Based at georgetown law we focus on the relationship between privacy and new technologies particularly as the impact historically vulnerable communities in a course in the open i focused on port link thats getting a lot of big news where i live here in the states but this is an issue all over the world from portland to d. C. To london to where my next guest is sitting in Hong Kong Mary communities yourself sure hieron i mean its very her home base a home call among course of course. Most of us here since last june to clearly. Whats known as the. Sea and how it is that its. Summers and you are there on the front lines of what a massive protest now for what a couple couple years theyve been going on that long in hong kong can you tell us what it were some of the surveillance techniques that police had been using and how people have been trying to protect themselves from the. Yeah we see the surveillance photo of the official on the fishing line so balance the high tech and learn tech kind so lets take a look at a place that they are using a lot of the video cameras to. Protesters process why as a way to keep iraq what was for themselves i think also to send a very clear message people are being watched and so even if you have entirely Peaceful Assembly. Technically unlawful because the police have not run to or at what we should say the sense needs to ask the commission to process these 48 but thats the way it is comb the law or some way they were for example sat in front where them someplace else having the same every Single Person about to go in there and that sends a very very clear signal that the police right to press charges a later date even if the Assembly Remains entirely peaceful. The police often have also over the past year cracked into thousands of digital devices found that they come to states and from. People protesters activists satisfy. That have been arrested and in many cases this is recorded. And documented as well as in question this practice in the judicial review the police have actually used very thing it warrants to such a sensually to search their own have all says where the phones if you mean the cases and so thats one way the chance that get access to one of them and nation and then finally i think we also have a very low tech kind of surveillance right now especially in light of the National Security law that was just an orse that in all of this money that i think. People is instigating this is. Way but snitching when people are reporting and calling out cully and so activism members and saying you know these people are suspected of violence so thats a metaphor very low to every. So many players that there are what have we seen in the us with some of the massive black life matters protests that happen another in drones and aircraft surveillance and you know what what are they doing here. We have heard about the use of drones there is of course the use of cameras as well. Now a lot of Law Enforcement agencies in us have a clip most of their officers with body cameras the aspect about this that im particularly concerned about but we have very Little Information about is the use of face recognition as a tool to identify who is at these protests we know that over half of all American Adults are in face recognition databases that are accessible or searched by Law Enforcement and the question really becomes are Law Enforcement agencies using the strains that they have from videos from photographs from even protest videos and photos posted to social media to try to identify the individuals at these protests heres why its so concerning in the u. S. Theres a very strong. Relationship between the right to anonymity and the 1st amendment right to speech protest assembly the Supreme Court said anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority while face recognition is a tool to the anonymize people participating in 1st amendment protected activity so we do not have concrete evidence theres a huge lack of transparency around the use of this tool but it is a huge concern here. We have is going is it is good or gabriel this is paetec is modern warfare against protest. Basically primarily used by russian the trumpet ministration i would argue is more broad than that its ok why was this such a just such a threat. Its a huge threat because the mere fact of this type of surveillance is towards having a Chilling Effect and so you know that youre being watched and thats certainly the case if you turn up a protest with a facial recognition van weve actually had that in the u. K. The u. K. After say is one of the worst Surveillance States in the democratic world and actually. Rivals china for the amount of surveillance cameras that we have a person we have around 6000000 cameras in this country is about one for every 10 people who are an incredibly watch nation and then when you hire long that kind of surveillance at protests youre telling people that theyre being watched and to put this into context. We have a very authoritarian history actually of of surveillance in the u. K. Of protests where weve had spotted cards being you to identify organizes a lot of infiltration we had for example place offices using the identities of dead children to create fake personas infiltrate peaceful environmental groups and race equality groups even the family of the grieving family of a murdered boy in in the u. K. In the ninetys was in for traits by Undercover Police offices who acted as their friends sometimes even as romantic partners and basically collected information on them and. So we have in that context where surveillance is used to prevent social movements from advancing and to deter people from taking part and sometimes to criminalize people. This has a clear effect on the kind of society that we live in and i would argue the extent to which we can really call ourselves a democracy. And i know you must have noticed that i stole your line in my intro from the preinterview that. Its meant to immunize governments from the forces of change keep the riff on the. Yeah i think the aim of. Heavy surveillance of protests i was really thinking about this watching the intro and what trump was saying about how you know describing people is as an a case to hate their country nothing could be further from the truth especially if you look at the that lives not a movement where people are striving for equality for fairness for the principles that the United States is built upon and we can never be complacent about values in society or about what kind of whoa whoa what kind of country wants to come in a lot of social reasons at the moment are striving towards those goals the purpose of having this all sorts hereon oppressive surveillance is to stop that and to to tear it and to create obstacles and obstructions and and really using these surveillance instruments of of power. To preserve the status quo. Its not about security its not so bad. With criminals its about preserving and its a cool power 11 thing id add on that is that its interesting in u. K. Of recovered in a state like many other countries of Emergency Powers one main power remains in the u. K. Because a lot down is more or less lifted its a restriction of gatherings and this is the time when that close matter is growing massive names are Mental Movement is going message me but you can be. Criminalized you can be arrested you can be prosecuted just for going on a process yet you can go to go to cinema you can go to work but we can to is exercise your right to freedom of expression freedom of assembly in the most fundamental democratic way. So i have a comment from joseph eddy in the u. 2 says that if theyre tracking protesters via cell phone and email communications find low tech means of communicating that cant cannot be tracked so mariano in hong kong they develop some some different ways to communicate and they also were kind of famous for bring in the the umbrella as to the protests thats a low tech response right he talked a little bit about that and in fact what i want to do mary is while youre talking or maybe after we can bring up these. I dont know what you would call them is like a different form of communication by using maybe you can describe my head im like oh my computer now we can go to make it so what were looking at here. Actually were looking at a new form of code essentially this came up. Earlier this month of Government Action and a protest thats been rallying coal the entire movement and that goes on coal revolution times and government set this is now legal slogan because it is seditious its intense messaging and so what were seeing now is hong kong protests thats taking off the sense that its in Mainland China has long had to find ways to get around senses and what we see here. Taxes of in chinese. And those characters have now been replaced by the symbols but of course if you know what theyre supposed to save and you know that even though the symbols actually look like anything they ought to mean changing the very message. So thats just one creates a way. That princess as a trying to get around the surveillance of the sets and. The bell is as young as could gnat gnat successfully the umbrellas. Initially not what seems to protect the sense that its from tear gas and are projectiles its. Beginning a mosque that increasingly use to shield concepts as far as. Surveillance cameras and possibly drones. He said. And often that is used for weapons us is what is meant when various social spraying. Graffiti in malls or transporting. Bricks down the road to barricades and. So here i lets go to my computer one more time to share something with you this is pretty cool its called the atlas of surveillance it was put together by the Electronic Frontier foundation. Encourage people just to google doesnt go look now this is about the u. S. But there are by 1300 data points in here showing all the different types of surveillance around the country its being used and you can kind of zoom in and click on on it something you know to play around in wherever you live to see whats going on with with the surveillance but clear tell me what will we do about this. Thats a great question i think the main thing is to pressure on our legislators to pass laws and reinforce existing laws to make sure that this type of surveillance is not happening we would like to think that the 1st amendment protects us or the 4th amendment the right to privacy protects us against this type of surveillance and this sort of what we call a perpetual lineup created by the use of face recognition for example but the reality is these technologies have largely been deployed far in advance of any sort of legislation this is a democracy it should be up to the communities that are being policed the communities on whom this technology is being used to decide whether or not thats appropriate and we need to get to that point i want to make one of were going to counter yes i swear im going to have a cowboy go for it from this is from twitter you can respond to claire since you since you have the mike it seems someone who goes into the handle be humble. Seba muhammad looks like his name but i dont see why one would hide their identity while involved in peaceful protests protestors are not criminal unless they turn violent but what i support about these surveillance cameras is the possibility of tracking and fishing out of been dears from amongst the peaceful protesters. That is the point thats raised by by Law Enforcement i would actually point you to the case law in the United States saying that thats actually not what the 1st amendment says though there is a case thats sort of controversial because the plaintiff was the k. K. K. The k. K. K. Won the right in a couple of states to wear their hoods during Peaceful Assembly and protest why not because the Law Enforcement didnt have a right to or didnt have an interest in knowing who those people were not because communities were did not feel threatened by the masked. K. K. K. Members walking to their communities but that the 1st amendment right of yes even deeply unpopular deeply wrong ideals held by the k. K. K. Are protected under the right the 1st amendment and that includes their right to wear a hood so that they are not identified so let me bring in this is from someone in our community named Joslin Mcdonald approaches this guy but youre going to make up check it out this is actually pretty critical. For about a year now i think conducting workshops where teach prickles against how official detection and facial Recognition Systems work so they can alternately go and undermine the systems using make up and facial coverings that were as been greatly inspired by recent maker trends that you know seelys artists really personable open terms of artistry and sculpture and i thought you know what if we could use the same techniques and make a better so using to make really compelling looks to ultimately undermine the power official recognition and ability to detect a face and at least as a member station authority of communities about the increasing reach of surveillance into all of our daily lives. So lets go to our website check out my computer this is some of the stuff hes talking about you know from an artistic perspective this seems really beautiful and cool but from a practical perspective. I mean one just practical wear wearing this out and i can imagine in the heat of a just melt but to doesnt this kind of make you just stick out in a way that you were hoping to to not in the 1st place look you like is this is a practical. Yeah plainly no but i agree its very beautiful and i love the way the. Artists are engaging with countersurveillance in d a way that i dont expect to now and havent seen before i completely agree with clare we need legislative to do something i actually think we need radical popular action and the responsibility is on all of us and the responsibility is on everyone watching this because if youre watching this youve got an interest in it and you know i think the alarm bells have been ringing on surveillance especially in the u. K. And the u. S. God knows whole goal for some time and when our very Pivotal Point in time where the world is changing rapidly the technological revolution is taking pace is the greatest i would suggest change the any society has probably ever been through i think this is far more drastic than the Industrial Revolution and we have very limited time we have this. A short window of time in which to set the norms for what the future is going to look like for us and future generations and there is a great chance that and certainly there are economic incentives to build this kind of small its surveillance grid in which we are tracked we are watched and any operations. Pursued and thats the nightmare we dont want to live in thats why we called big brother watch and i think is fundamentally hostile to democracy said this is the time to be taking action and speed resisting surveillance and some big taking radical action like banning facial recognition thats the way thats what it is that actually this is not something that will feature in democracies. So the question becomes though that if we can take a legislative route that sounds fine for you can us what do you do if your new authoritarian regime where you may not have that option open to you to marry thats what youre seeing on the streets there right what are the options there be options are increasing the extent of saying. To. You cheap we were looking only at why Peace Process that should be worried about something thats what they are that. Even the most hes for us even if it was just standing outside a government building holding up something as simple as. As opposed to that sense who live in it or perhaps even a black princess do that to protest against any of the slogans that he actually get you charged on the National Security law so its a joke for textually when he is who even thinks with us chinas are like that is a very worrying trend and right now our whole call. Bury it less or room to push back against. Our National Security has been forced by diktats by beijing. So to bring another you to comment here this is from jay to. Say here in hackers were a cause of war a 1st firey spying and now it looks like governments are also stepping up for spying do we need to worry about privacy will be left after all this will privacy be left after all this announcement think like if you want to know whats going on with Technology Look at what theyre doing Silicon ValleySan FranciscoSan Francisco actually banned the use of facial Recognition Technology amazon has put a pause on their facial rick Recognition Technology until they get clear clear guidance from the government the problem is when you have Tech Companies looking to the u. S. Government for guidance the u. S. Government believes the body that makes those laws the congress is full of really very very well wealthy mostly white old men who arent particularly tech savvy so i dont know how you you each has known that are you how do you get over that channel but somebody needs to realize whats happening and i think voices like all of yours today helped bring this conversation to the forefront that the people really need to consider what this means for them and their society for our guests i want to thank you all for being here today and for everyone watching i hope you take this morning wonder what you can do about it as well. 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As protests rage over Police Brutality and coronavirus grips the nation campaigning on the election trail has been forced to take a back seat will the president ial candidates ever hit the road and so their brand of politics to americans before the polls follow the us elections on a just. What is the price of luxury. An Undercover Team travels deep into the illegal cocoa plantations of the ivory coast Simple Solutions are very hard to find for something as complicated as the child labor. Chocolates hearts of darkness and count as unpaid child labor is working in 100000000000 dollar industry overhaul of the countrys cocoa produces live below the poverty line. On aljazeera. This is al jazeera. Hello im still raman youre watching the aljazeera news our life from our headquarters here in doha coming up in the next 60 minutes just hours before a closure deadline china clears out its consulate in houston while retaliating with the shutdown order to the u. S. 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