The u. K. Is reported to have turned to japan in its search for 5 g. Network technology but can anyone fill the way void what does it mean for the timeline of 5 g. s services this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the show im sam is a than now the u. K. Is reportedly japan to help build its 5 g. Infrastructure its seen as a major blow for Chinese Technology and the way in for u. S. President donald trump the u. K. Says its banning Chinas Huawei 5 g. From its networks the British Government says the decision wasnt easy but is right for National Security and the economy the move comes as the u. S. Intensifies its campaign against the tech giant and it reverses the u. K. s attempt in january to allow restricted use of weiwei equipment from the end of the year u. K. Operators will not be allowed to buy the firms 5 g. Kits are already in place have to be removed by 2027 or this is what the u. K. s digital secretary had to say. The new u. S. Measures restrictor while raise ability to produce important products using u. S. Technology or software the National Cybersecurity center has reviewed the consequences of the u. S. Actions the n. C. I. C. Has now reported to ministers but they have significantly changed their security assessment of hawaiis presence in the u. K. s 5 g. Network given the uncertainty that this creates around while we supply chain the u. K. Can no longer be confident it will be able to guarantee the security of future private huawei 5 to equipment affected by the change in u. S. Foreign direct product rules to manage this risk they have now issued new advice on the use of a wall way in the u. K. Telecoms networks of china accusing the u. K. Of colluding with the us to hurt Chinese Companies warning itll come at a cost in fans and without any concrete evidence the u. K. Used the unfounded risks as an excuse and cooperated with the us to discriminate against suppress and exclude Chinese Companies u. K. Blatantly violated market principles and free trade rules and to breach the relevant promises they made the wrong decision seriously damages the interests of Chinese Enterprises and severely impacts the basis of mutual trust in chinese british Cooperation China strongly opposes this. The u. K. s decision raises questions about whether other European Countries will follow suit u. S. President don trump has been pressuring allies to exclude weiwei from their networks some of already dismissed the firm others are considering doing so trump says the tech giant could be used by the Chinese Government to spy on countries while way denies the allegations trumps already impose an outright ban on the firm in the us and introduce new rules to disrupt war ways ability to manufacture its own chips american visa restrictions have been recently imposed on employees of Chinese Technology firms deemed to be human rights offenders trump says the race is on for 5 g. And the us must win it while away is part of a wider economic and political dispute between the us and china the 2 countries have been engaged in a trade war imposing tariffs on each other is good since 2018 they agreed on the 1st step towards a truce and signed a trade deal in january china promised to open up its markets to American Goods in exchange for a partial lifting of u. S. Tariffs. But tensions resume soon after the u. S. Accused china of suppressing information about coronavirus paging rejects that allegation there also add all those over china imposing a National Security law in hong kong wiggles the minority Human Rights Violations vote Chinese Government and beijings claims in the south china sea. I. Bring in our panel we have joining us from Adelaide Australia simon lacy hes a former Vice President of Global Government Affairs at while Way Technologies in china in chamonix france we have Robert Prichard hes a Cyber Security consultant and former deputy head of Cyber SecurityOperations Center in the British Government and in tokyo we have Mark Einstein hes the chief analyst for Digital Services i. T. On japan welcome to you all if i could start with mark in tokyo so can even giants like any c. And fujitsu fill the void by shining weiwei is the u. K. Is doing so they absolutely can i mean any c. Is not incredibly successful overseas but is the number one supplier to the Number One Company in japan which is n. T. Docomo. Telecom business has not really been very strong in recent years but they just want to big deal with dish in the United States so while they might be more expensive and inexperienced they do think that from a technological perspective they would be able to fill that gap simon do you agree with that perspective has everyone been making too much of a fast about their whether or not there is life after weiwei in the 5 g. World. Well i think theres definitely life after a while away i mean youve already got some vendors in the space well established like knocking on Ericsson Samsung has actually long been that sort of company to watch in this space but look i mean in any city is coming from so far behind its hard to really see how it could really change the dynamics in the u. K. Market i mean if youre talking about the u. K. Market. Now youre going to have going to have humor vendors less competition and youre also delaying the rollout quite significantly and that could have could have some serious long term implications on for the competitiveness of the u. K. But this is a decision of the u. K. Government has now taken at least for the forseeable future and theyll have to live with that i could see ma shaking his head in i guess disagreement what do you take exception to isnt that a fact that any c like others they are pretty much everybody is behind while away well i mean in terms of mark critz share yes i would agree that while we use the number one player in Global TelecomInfrastructure Market in the world but i think that any c. Has been you know the main supplier of n. T. Docomo which has been a pioneer in 3 g. Or 2 services and now 52 services so to say that theyre behind technologically i think is incorrect to say that they dont have anywhere near the footprint of weiwei is correct all right lets bring in robert if we can robert there is a belief that some of the argument of whether its possible to go on building a 5 g. Network with or without wall way that this decision anyway is more motivated the solution of the u. K. For political reasons rather than real cybersecurity concerns is that how you see it. I think the impala probably yes the n. C. I. C. The National Cybersecurity sense in the u. K. Changed the pollsters he said in your introduction from thinking a while away was a manageable risk and then also the sanctions the u. S. Announced that they decided that because it restricted to our rights access to their elegy that they wouldnt be able to maintain an appropriate Security Posture so i think thats probably i think thats a legitimate its fair to say that if you are denied access to some of the Cutting Edge Technology said you probably are going to struggle at least in the short term to keep your products up to date but i suspect that probably is the politics behind this is well you know theres obviously been a lot of pressure from the u. S. And i think thats as again you said in your introduction thats to ration of the relationships with the National Security law in hong kong which overseas of significant concern to the u. K. Government as well as the we get the situation im sure to try to influence all right simon you mentioned then that this kind of move means the u. K. Is going to have to push back its rollout date so its going to delay 5 g. Technology by how much. So you pay officials have said this could be anything from sort of 2 to 3 years is some in the industry think its its going to be longer. I think it was bt that went on record and said theres no way that they could rip and replace their way equipment in the time frame set but this is this is going to be a significant setback for for the u. K. I mean you have to think that the countries that are really pushing ahead with all the sort of the i. O. T. Applications and so forth Industrial Revolution are Korea Germany and japan and certainly germany and korea were not allowed were not about to let their. Lets let. Their competitiveness be impacted by any sort of delay in 5 g. Buy by adhering to u. S. Pressure in on banning huawei which is which is the most Cost Effective the most technologically advanced competitor in the space at least right now thats interesting so were looking at perhaps some countries being years behind mark will this is thanks to valley then create a 2 tier world when it comes to 5 g. Technology those using one way and those who dont who are maybe 23 years behind the others. So i do think that we might see something of a 5 g. Cold war where we have you know countries that are willing to accept Chinese Technology and countries that arent. I certainly you know clearly while they will continue its you know innovation in china its very strong in the middle east in certain parts of africa Southeast Asia and latin america thats going to continue i think the real battleground is going to be in Continental Europe where its about 5050 so thats really where were going to see this war i think is its and its hardest this war rubber is supposed to be about Cyber Security at least thats the official reason right but have any of the wall way alternatives been subject to the same sort of rigorous testing that one way products have been subjected to to make sure that they are more secure and though they have an effect comment so the hallway in the u. K. Has whats called the cell or Cyber Security center which is staffed by affected individuals to review their code and they found lots of problems in the right care and although they never found a smoking gun that says they were put there by the state clearly that of the other players had been subject to that kind of review but that said i think it comes down and some is that were in a trust. Yeah it is equally i think we should expect that as as the play has become a permanent they will be subject to review and of course people do you do security reviews of equipment as well as perhaps just not quite as public you know the hawaiian way the security reasons why the board make an annual report. So we know roughly they dont necessarily fight it with intel but we have an intern also the kinds of Security Issues that theyre seeing and its not atypical for a large Enterprise Telecommunications its not a sector that has a stunning reputation for security generally through a variety of reasons one of which of course its the longevity of the equipment once it goes into your network it for a very long time and you know and years under bridges are found in new technologies come along. So i dont i mean i think that youll have that its more of a degree of trust that i think even if you find the same front abilities you may have more trust in your ex in the wall. Korean company i forget who would talk about a. Thing or exploit the samsung something yet so you know that they have a bit more terra trust in those organizations to fix this and perhaps not exploit them in the same way as walmart might worry that huawei would simon looking at the big sort of global picture the picture that i think you have to look at for one way is this is the u. K. Decision can we call it a decisive victory for the u. S. In the battle against wall way. Well i think look nothings really decisive. I mean this decision has gone back and forth several times over the last year and you know last year we had a very sort of Evidence Base transparent. Infrastructure Telecom Sector infrastructure review with dozens of experts from all across the spectrum that came in testified and the decision was was taken to fund the finding was made that that long way didnt didnt represent. A risk that couldnt be mitigated and now weve sort of gone back the other way and i think i think look you have to be realistic that a lot of this is due to i think i think was robert that alluded to some politics and i think you know youve got youve got one set of political factors in the conservative party in the u. K. A and then youve got another kind of elephant in the room in washington wave a president really fighting for his political life and. Taking stepping stepping up to china and becoming more belligerent towards china is just part of the american president ial silly season of politics and i think once we get to november and january we might find. A new reality and regardless of whether trump is reelected or we have somebody else in the white house explain the last poll if you could saw him and i can understand if there is a change in the white house but why regardless of that. Well you have to look at it like this right so i mean if if lets say joe biden gets elected hes going to get elected on a platform thats also fairly fairly aggressive towards china but i dont think hes going to try and of this or write any of the Chinese National corporate champions. If trump gets reelected hes going to have to reconcile with china just you know for the for the anomic says that that represents and hes going to have to get is his phase 2 trade agreement passed and hes going to have to engage with china constructively and one way you see some of these restrictions being rolled back simon ultimately is that what youre saying well while you know trump has always treated far away just as a negotiating chip and you know hes always also shown that hes more than happy to throw his National Security people under the bus if its politically expedient to him so i think this is something that he could roll back on shore mark does it then given the political sort of environment which simon was explaining that does it become more a lot more commercially viable for companies to invest now in competing with one way 5 g. Technology. That were seeing the u. K. Possibly others might ban. Way 5 g. Does that help companies to think about investing more in computing or do some of the political concern calculations about whether its elections or other things on the horizon really limit that. So i think that theres a few points to consider here so one it is very early days in the 5 g. Network deployment so theres still a lot of a stations are going to be that are up for grabs theres a lot of money up for grabs weve really lived in a wall way Nokia Ericsson world for many years i do think that there is room for more players regardless. So and i think another issue you know clearly there are geo Political Forces at play but law is very keen to point out that it is 19000000000. 00 worth of u. S. Components every year from Companies Like qualcomm and intel and i think that you know should we ever see these restrictions rolled back it might have a lot to do with these companies raising their voice so theres also a commercial aspect in addition to this geo political aspect. The u. S. Decision to restrict the sale of some of those advance us components that mark was talking about the chips to huawei does that create kind of a selffulfilling prophecy with more chinese components and less. Chinese components in the wall way 5 g. Network the u. S. Can make a stronger argument for the Security Risk of wall way right. Yeah i think you could probably say that although its worth considering where all these components and manufactured anyway and i expect said march that was and even though the a company is american in the Development Started america the manufacture will be done in china. So yeah it could be equally right for schall a position of developing this technology itself and thats something we see that over the last 10 or 15 years i 1st heard of her walk away in 2005 when they were quite nice Telecommunications Provider and now this massive growth will be even slow the city not sure its also funding and you know i mean evasion capability and so on on sure they will step up to the market and how long it will hold impactful how is one way founding when coming up with an alternative to the u. S. Chips ill just say at the moment i really couldnt say im sure they would have seen the vying on the wall though its not like the. Relations of being entirely rosy over the last couple of years and as i just said you know that. The chinese focus is doing this sort of domination of these markets so im sure they will be looking to have to mystical too and it is im sure it would have been on the road map anyway to try and move away from. American companies or at least the American Companies manufacture to china so they will have that fabrication plant ready so i tried dont think that im the probably a lot of local and domestic never have anyway so whilst i appreciate that designing the next generation of these things is a National Enterprise in itself and requires a lot of specialist knowledge i cant really believe theyll be too far behind the curve. Simon the reports the u. S. Is offering money to other countries like brazil which want to build a 5 g. Technology network as long as they shun the y. Obviously how worried do you think the chinese should be and that sort of policy. Well i i think you know the chinese you know have massive massively deep pockets to sort of fund. The expansion of their companies than and you know i mean that there has there have been reports of export financing previous decades which is one of the things that allowed. Allowed Chinese Companies to get market share although although Weston Weston benders also benefited from from those sort of arrangements from their home government and governments but i think you know if youre if youre asking who can now be. The chinese treasury can the u. S. Do it i guess i mean the u. S. Can print can print money right but you know that sort of thing is very damaging ultimately because it really distorts markets and and it distorts incentives and and these sort of things i mean in latin america proved quite successful at at gaining market share and what a lot of people forget is that 18 t. Has a network in mexico in it 70 percent way equipment right and nobodys ever raised any security concerns about that even though its just across the border so so i think. You know this is some claim that while way represents the side of this thread it does kind of misrepresent that the ret to a very great degree and the reality is that there are several states that have really formidable capabilities in terms of hacking and and bridging networks and china just happens to be one of those countries and so i mean im sure you believe these are really network is the way has these much closer links to the government even to the communist party is that of comeback playing to the other non briefly i mean not not really if you look at how closely the big american corporates are tied to the u. S. Government that goes for Companies Like boeing lockheed honeywell but also 80. And verizon this is a highly regulated sector and so you know you can you can have you can have a philosophical discussion about you know whos companies are close to their governments really. Want to bring mark in what do you make of this is this the u. K. Decision something of a point where the tide is turning do you expect others to follow other countries to while away from the 5 g. Networks. Right so i do think that you know theres a few points that need to be made here i think when we talk about Security Risk we need to be very clear about cyberSecurity Risk or supply chain risk and in you know in my opinion the decision in the u. K. Was words we driven by the concerns that law way would not be able to fulfill its contractual requirements because it couldnt get components from the u. S. And taiwan except for a thats very different from an espionage Cyber Security kind of problem so i want to be very clear about that so i think that you know with that in mind i think that we. Theres a few countries that you want to watch i mean in germany was always done extremely well with t. Mobile i would watch that very closely as a bellwether to how some of these European Countries that are on the fence are going to go i think india because of political tensions between news 2 countries might be another area of to watch and then again we have aggressive lobbying in countries like brazil but i still think it was always going to continue to be a major Global Player in china in Southeast Asia in africa in many of these more emerging markets as you know weve already discussed in mexico you know wall ways cost competitiveness really has enabled mobile broadband to proliferate much faster than it would have without while we had a very important point let me take that point in 40 seconds robert does mark have a point them while were going to be around for a while even the u. K. Band doesnt than 5 g. Upgrades all while weigh in to the 3 or 4 g. Networks. I know it doesnt and there is a lot of why wait to calm the city in 4 g. Networks to do double exploring and just to go back to sort of that risk i think sort of the sort of the Cyber Security risk was a legitimate but perhaps its become less so over the years with the different architectures but there i definitely dont think theyre going away anytime soon and theyll be around all the u. K. Network well past 27 im sure you do you gotta wonder how serious all of this is the thanks so much gentlemen for coming in and joining us in that discussion has been a great show lets thank simon lacy Robert Prichard and mark and stein. And thank you to you for watching you can see the show again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion head over to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story can also join the conversation on twitter handle there is that a. J. Inside story from me sam is a them and the whole team here for now its good buy. 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