Inequality starts at the top ill use the u. N. Secretary general Antonio Gutierrez i says the world is at breaking point and calls for a new global deal is it possible does a pandemic offer a chance to change this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the show im sam is a that not everyone is in the same boat the 26 richest people in the world hold as much wealth as hard for its population life chances depend on gender race and whether or not a person has a disability these global inequalities are being made worse by the pandemic and the world is reaching breaking point a bleak reality laid bare by the u. N. Secretary general and tony a good target has delivered one of the most hard hitting messages he says the disparities start with the biggest institutions and they should be eradicated under a new model of Global Governance that guarantees a fair share of wealth opportunity and power. 19 is being likened to an extremely revealing fractures in the franchise skeleton of the societies we have built is exposing fallacy the fossils everywhere the lie that free markets can deliver else care for all the fiction that bait can work is not work. The delusion that we live in the post racist world the meat if we are all in the same boat is because while we are all floating on the same sea it is clear that somebody in super yachts with others are clinging to the 15 degrees covered 1000 pandemic is approx home the tragic disconnect between selfinterest and the common interests and the huge gaps in governance structures and ethical frameworks to close those gaps and to make the new social context possible we need the new global deal to ensure that our wealth and opportunities are shared more broadly and sadly at International Level a new model for Global Governance must be based on food inclusive and equal participation in global easy to ship. It off that we face even why that inequality is an gaps in solidarity like the. The fragmented local responsible government in all those top institutions good advice was speaking about are essentially the world bank and International Monetary fund they were established under the Bretton Woods agreement reached in 1944 by 44. 00 allied nations the deal created the post world war 2 International Monetary system thats replace the Gold Standard the u. S. Dollar became the only currency pegged to gold and the reserve to which other currencies are linked the fixed Exchange Rate system collapsed in 1971 when the us ended the ability to convert dollars into gold. As bring in our panel into the show now we have joining us from nairobi max lawson hes the head of inequality policy at angst fam in new delhi we have International Development economist and professor jr to go she and in london alexander dean hes the former chief of staff to David Cameron when he was the shadow secretary of state for education welcome to the show if i can start with j. I. T. How do you see the secretary generals call for a new global deal is it an overdue appeal for some common sense or a idealistic vision that will never become reality. Well i absolutely think its open to you and i am very glad that he did actually friends come out and do it because the idea that its you have to be and it can never get translated to disappear reflection of our lack of political will in imagination. As he said it really at the brink cannot afford to do. The extremes of inequality are such that just threatening our societies our economies we have to im able to cope with the pandemic that we should have been able to do. If we had the proper structures in place we are unable to cope with the existential threat of Climate Change and with it basically rearranging deck chairs on the titanic so i think its absolutely essential for us to do something immediately and i think the secretary general is absolutely right. And the necessity for fundamental change rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic expression let me take it to max and say do you agree with that analysis its not too idealistic its an overdue appeal for us to save ourselves from ourselves. I think it needs to be said its incredibly important i think before coronavirus it we already had an incredible on the whole world where 26 they have the same miles it was the bottom half of humanity extremes of wealth beyond what was below me much mention of money than anyone can spend in the bog times and then the huge numbers of People Living in very precarious blogs david and miss being hit by the tsunami of the virus the economic tsunami that have a tsunami and i mean even kenya hundreds of thousands of people out of work everyones talking about hunger. And yet even here in kenya that the rich are doing fine the government even cut the top rate of income tax so its really missing any quality color if you can call it that exploding what was already a very on the whole world hard con people but the secretary general were talking about it and how the governments reacted to reduce the gap between rich and poor and build a more equal World Records all right let me take that sentiment to alexander do you agree with all of that is this vision really possible to be put into reality. Well good news now i dont agree with that so were going to have a debate. The hearts of the casual. Figure out. Generous doing until. Hes one of the last president s a socialist international and i think that probably a place that the rest. To be i think its a mistake. That rises and falls depending on the level of commitment from its Member States here is the head of the organization implicitly or explicitly. After a time when more and some of them are getting to learn to play policy multilateral organizations i think the. President come out and given the words of americas past why not. Seem to me singularly foolish to be suggesting that everything is more we should be transforming our economic systems in the kind of way that the generals say but i can you will not just that i think this is not. A very positive. Its globalism and actually off Climate Change i mean basically this is a left wing student agenda and its not the agenda. He should try again in elected politics where he failed in portugal in 2002 we should try and get himself elected if you want to implement change in the way that he suggests we should have a democratic mandate rather than sailing palafox and then trying to deliver National Organizations all right i can say. Is angling to get in that i guess you might have something to say about this being the appeal of the secretary general being nothing more than a set of tide left wing quotes. Well actually i cant really believe what i just heard hes saying that the cherokee doesnt exist nor did it or didnt happen that inequality is not there is that what is being said that if you use these words thats automatically some left wing student at jet and im actually a little surprised because i think even the World Economic forum in the us but not out alexander didnt. Have all used these words and accepted that these things exist and that inequality is a very very serious problem but. It is quite unprecedented its data how unprecedented is it though for a un secretary general to speak so openly against the system which many would say he works with this not represents i mean the un Voting Rights that doesnt doesnt alexander have a point when he says you know youre taking a bit of a gamble when you speak out against the very institutions youre representing. Well i think its really just a question of recognizing i mean this is really the indication of how far could send our team and how right we think that is because secretary generals in the past have have used much stronger language if you go back to how much older you cant i mean they used much much stronger language actually so its really a question of the fact that we now have in power regimes in the United States and in that etc which are im willing to give any each and openly and it didnt leave representing the interests of very small elite in their countries and willing to take all its National Institutions i actually dont crush them. If they are not able to be right that it let me give alex a quick chance to come in and then i know max has something to say more go to max very quickly. Well i think there is a column and there is an answer the problem isnt as its been outlined by my fellow activists who believe that we live in terrible inequality when its actually quality of life and length of life that people around the world has increased remarkably thanks to capitalism and free trade the problem we face and it is being corrected now i think is the point of the other panelist skin the sort of numbers that maxes is telling us is that yeah that may have been achieved but now it seems like the curve is going down with a handful of people having more or as much money is half the world its to give me the problem that we face economic nationalism and protectionism its not the suggestion that we should try to smuggle through left wing policies of socalled equal isolation which you wouldnt be able to deliver the ballot box if you actually offered it which is actually a very for a winner if you cant deliver democracy dont worry creates all go to International Institute get a greater to. Induce and trying to liberate you read a Climate Change. Course its left wing policies that if you gave people a chance they wouldnt brutal all right max go ahead. I didnt. Come was over grid a bit without i was up there saying the secretary general is big brother i think if we look at the quality of the worlds leaders the juxtaposition between the leaders of most countries. Scale the problems humanity tices there could not be a huge gap weve got right we demagogues who clearly dont know how to govern clearly dont know what to do next or carson is doing terrible terrible things it does Church Leadership i agree these are your sponsors but this definition of leadership is to speak up and say you want to happen i could just Say Something more on the popularity that we expand on and others organizations not universities in your how to power around the world before coronavirus and i hope the current virus and some of these policies for instance greater taxation of the rich to help pay for the coverage for coverage we saw millionaires coming in for that last week and thats a massively popular policy and so if it was put to the ballot box it would be picked up next leslie gelb in and presenting you the nominee or alex one solid alex dish on the house so look at all of you if you want to Public Service delivery tonight michael. If you were to try to say its usually something not universal go scripts of no thats all right lets give an exception now let you come back in on that next go ahead onix if you want to check the reach more heavily perhaps much more. Than run for office. And if youre going to do it yourself Political Party to do so and campaign for them well im just saying the Actual Community should somehow be disability well all right lets give max that chance. Oh i completely agree with you more than. I think the real battleground for the policy of. The nation has to be democratic but where do you disagree lose the sense that these in some way not popular promises because i think the public. And i think coronaviruses really contribute that people see that everyone is at risk they see the necessity for things Like Universal Health coverage in the face of a pandemic they see that government can intervene really wants to help right. Facing unemployment they want to see more of the current of course they do not want to go back to the bad guys they want to new york and they want to use that spirit to confront Climate Change weve got to go to the streets weve got some questions coming up about what the new normal might be but i can see jack before we get into that i want you to speak to perhaps one come back to that sort of narrative which we heard from the secretary general the idea that you know the one that even weve heard now from max that there is a terrible wealth gap and its growing what do you say to those who say as alex pointed out well overall the indicators even further even if we say you know there are a few rich people who are getting richer and the gap is getting bigger between them and the rest of us the rest of us have seen their standard of living improve have seen their life longevity improve even if the the gap between the rest of us and the super rich is getting bigger you know lets forget about. What you know and what we do now i think that the argument is if. The point is exactly that that we have that india property juggling of the public property that we have hundreds of millions of people lost jobs livelihood weve had a dramatic decline in the region including hunger in the absence of my own country and im not even talking about many countries in africa and you talking about the pandemic are we talking about a longer time scale im talking about the last 7 years where there was an absolute fall in employment according to official. Increase in hunger before the pandemic and that bad emic made a dramatic increase in hunger and in poverty. So yes things are not necessarily better in the last few years for a very large number of the people in our country and in this tidbit we have had the top one percent absolutely double their incomes and their rent if you just put a 4 percent tax on 165. 00 people in india thats on just 165. 00 people of property and ducked out and wrecked which they wouldnt even notice you actually get Double Health spending in this country and we are massively underfunding because it cant right now during the pandemic we dont have beds we dont have nurses we dont have hospitals we dont have basic medical kits i mean its its really appalling the level of scarcity so its very easy to tell and it has huge Popular Support what i just want to make is that you know its all right there is a lot democratic process and so on but government should you know get elected for various reasons its a very complicated process the electoral one as im sure a lot of us know and it doesnt mean that you have Carte Blanche to do everything you like in any which we provide yes it really means that you must respond to democratic needs and to look desperate crisis where people are actually grew to again and definitely put things like this you can to the referendum for the left x. Im pretty sure you would get overwhelming support in india probably in the u. K. Certainly in the u. S. We know the polls show that its overwhelming support ok alex do you think some world powers might now perceive the secretary generals be a bit of a nuisance not of a threat if not a threat. You know i do not tend to think. Especially in times of our best use us can see which people are brought together and im sure in the direction right. Past the. Room to be clear i think. Its i think more like the americans disengaged from the us because of this Congress Rather than the. I think when you start like that we should be looking more who. Did you think alex might see an effort to oust him after is you know 1st term. He was ousted after his 1st term after annoying while one was quite an ideologue i quote i dont know inside baseball know when a person crew steps well enough but i think i know of course that would also run the risk of being seen as targeting him because of this kind of speech which is this conversation ricks cred for some people d so. I think in some ways he may bolster his own position in terms of state but i think hes making a lot less useful and in the end youve got to wonder what are these rules all do you actually want to achieve something or do you want to let you into your time interesting issues thats a good point lets take it to max as a person you know you work with oxfam an organization that tries to help people in need when you hear the secretary general speak like that im sure one part of you is you know is is very happy with that does it worry you though the point which alex is making though that might prompt powerful countries like the u. S. Towards more disengagement that undermines the sort of policies you are working on. Again i think i think alex has a point i think you know what weve seen since the crisis. Is almost complete failure prone to naturalism and the unprecedented situation where the u. S. A democrat or a president commit this turning his back on the world and turning his back on the World Health Organization if anything i probably the secretary general has pretty much raised direction im absolutely sure he has worked incredibly hard to try and convince people but as we have seen were having a situation where the most powerful man on a is that like a playground but it so youre people have to speak up so i think it would be much much better and maybe we maybe we hope for a change of government here as much much better as we saw to the financial crisis and the leadership to go to. To convene and then for the most confirmations to do the right thing and particularly for poor mention because things by. Crises or increase a huge increase in poverty theres an estimate i hope a 1000000000 people could be pushed into poverty by this crisis and i see that every day here you can never have hunger in the slums here in our own unprecedented so that workwise concerts a Global Action by the most powerful nations and we just havent seen that in the last few months i think probably right the secretary general is exasperated that im here down on let me let jack the discussion i ask you could we interpret the support which some rich countries now giving to people you know have been had lost their livelihoods due to the pandemic as a move towards some of the principles the secretary general was talking about you know the idea of universal basic income is that any sliver of optimism that i think i get the developed countries to respond very significant keep it steady not just good which is cleaning it up big time suppose. Decoding unemployment assistance including you know various measures like that i think that has not been equivalent in developing countries but because of various inequality and much love this the space there are large debts that many of them bear their complete collapse tax revenues and such and so its been a very uneven response most developing countries have not provided that kind of support and assistance in india has been practically nothing provided to the hundreds of millions who must lead him and that i think its something youre going to another point that was being discussed earlier that has the secretary general under 90 percent good his position be any worse than it already was isnt the un already basically treated as irrelevant and isnt the fact that the us practically has almost stopped all Financial Support as when its really become little more than attend a desperate talking shop in which theres soap keen to keep those powers happy that they will not see anything that goes against the point the large and so so i think you know i mean i dont know if hes telling it like it is its not is it going to make the situation worse because it was already thought that or look anything it will actually make many other people take the u. N. Because it made a good point that let me take it alex and say you know that its difficult alex to see a scenario in which world powers unilaterally give up the dominant positions in global institutions to further the notions of equality right and while alex you know you talk about how this sort of agenda needs to be put sorted out in the democratic space many would argue some of the institutions that push this kind of pursue this kind of policy around the globe while theyre not entirely democratic right they have positions which are appointed through politics in power. Isnt it necessary to have a bit of a wake up per call or scream from the secretary general. To point to where it is right but in the end i suppose my answer is towards that democratic discussion that we were having and some we sort of had agreements on if in the end for example we think the Security Council should be restructured and permanent 5 nations have relations changed somehow and me in and made their way to the United Nations administered then surely the smart thing to do is to bolster honestly its movements in groups which africa needs a more democratic and open minded and and less control position at the United Nations which could then be proposed in the un to change you change the charter instead rehearsals are very he. Is making these kinds of sweeping statements and dismissive statements that just mean hes less likely to be listened to i agree with whats been said about the fact that he went seems pretty irrelevant already but i am surprised to see a return or so to confirm. Or rival some strong opinions some fray where out of time though lets thank our guests very sorry that we you know we could go on endlessly on this but for now weve got really have to thank our guests thank you so much Matt Clawson Jr to goshen and alexander dean thats will be back dont worry guys will be back to discuss this again. You can watch the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion however to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter handle is at a j inside story from a sam is a that and the whole thing here for now is go buy. To 0200 we know this is the government not to take the necessary action to really address some of the structural issues we listen i still think that at travel its the safest mode of travel and to spend that we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories the well known to 0. The latest news information government says its working with local authorities and Community Volunteers to meet the needs of the remaining a refugee with detailed coverage knocked on measures of the president many countries home to job losses for my kids and consequently have reduction in remittances from around the world it isnt the 1st time that the network was forced off the air in 1972 it was also shot down. Whos to blame for the mishandling of the coronavirus trying to make in the United States ill be putting the tough questions to trump surrogate Jack Kingston and former Democratic Party official just oconnell in a special edition of head to head we are not even through wave one as a result of the lack of a leadership here i said to my people slowed the testing down please that is criminally negligent and i will sit there and i thought it was hilarious head to head on algis iraq the whole d. N. A. Of no there are still even use people who are subject to the physicians play by the powerful to simply know where to put all these people theyre willing to be true to children the lowlights public backstory this place has become a complete crock you have to hear all of them and to treat them with something within respects. Be the hero world needs right. Well again pizza dough be here in doha your top stories from aljazeera the u. K. Has signed deals for 90000000 doses of 2 potential vaccines is also signed a deal for a 1000000 doses of an antibody treatment to report on the early stage of a human Clinical Trial is expected on monday however the british Prime MinisterBoris Johnson says he cannot promise that there will be a vaccine by the end of this year obs im hopeful ive got my fingers crossed but to say that im 100 percent confident that well get a vaccine this year or indeed next year is a last just you know an exaggeration well