Libya and syria and president putin hope to kick start the economy this year but i would pay for his big plan. Counting the cost on aljazeera. Taxes taxes taxes a group of millionaires just governments to raise taxes to fund a coronavirus recovery they say charity is not the solution but will governments also theyre called and how popular is this idea this is inside story. Hello there and welcome to the program im laura kyle the Coronavirus Crisis seems to be spinning out of control on thursday the world record its worst single day rise in infections almost a quarter of a 1000000 in just 24 hours cities that had declared a tends to victory a falling back on the look down one by one. The return of restrictions is an Economic Disaster for many countries already suffering from the 1st wave governments say theyre doing what they can and some of bailing out flatlining Industries Others have chosen to spend big to create jobs encourage spending and reduce individuals debt well as others have chosen welfare and Public Sector cuts as well as a rise on v. A. T. But all these measures are not permanent fixes and theyre expensive but the money having to come from somewhere now 1. 00 group of millionaires is saying that the cash or at least part of it should come from them the collective of 83 wealthy people from around the globe calling themselves millionaires for humanity have penned a letter the headline raise. Taxes on People Like Us immediately substantially permanently we have money lots of it money that is desperately needed now they say we can ensure we adequately fund our Health Systems schools and security through a permanent tax increase on the wealthiest people on the planet People Like Us theyre asking governments to force the worlds richest to help ease the economic burden ending the lesser taxes taxes taxes its the right choice its the only choice thank you so how much will list actually help or lets bring in our guests now to find out from new york we have morris poll chair of Patriotic Millionaires hes a member of millionaires for humanity and signed the petition for Milton Keynes in england aaron advani insistent professor of economics and impact rector of the Cage Research center at the university of work and from london caister are in dire head of Inequality Campaign and policy at oxfam thank you all very much for joining us morris lets start with you wat inspired you to write this letter. Sure we are very concerned that were moving in a direction were going to end up with a few people with all of the money and millions and millions and billions and partner impoverished people around the world and thats not the kind of world where i want my children and grandchildren to grow up im very worried that were moving in the wrong direction and that we have to take drastic measures to stop this growing inequality and to have the opportunities for my children grow up in the kind of world i did with most people being able to afford their basic living and being able to afford to shop and buy expensive things and do all the things that help our Business People and investors frankly get rich and do you feel that this is the only way that you can achieve this this is the main thing we need to do we need to change there were the direction were going to having a few rich people and lots of poor people so we need to take some money from the very richest the people whove made billions and billions of dollars by their businesses like amazon that deliver things to people being more valuable and have some of that to benefit the millions and millions of people who are unemployed and not sure where theyre going to be getting money to pay their august rent arent is this a good idea. I mean i think it has to be welcomed when i talk to policymakers in the time they will say yes this polling that says moon people would like taxes to go up on the wealthiest people but the problem is those are the people who on through those polls are the people who are going to pay the tax so maybe the worry is oh the people at the top who pay the taxes they were like and they will kind of respond and you do regularly hear news stories about you know theres been some tax changes somethings happened and one or 2 prominent billionaires have chosen to relocate their operation say to singapore d who want to go with something so and so its kind of harder to get across the news story that there are a lot of people potentially who are willing to stay and pay their share and so i think it can be welcomed if there are people who do feel that way for them to kind of get their point across because its much less easy to hear from them than it is to hear from the small number of people who might respond jeff we want to come back to that point in a moment just before we do ana oxfam is supporting this initiative lets just get an idea lay out an idea of where this money is most urgently needed so obstinate support this initiative because weve been working to fight inequality for many years now mainly because we know that an equality absence of huge barrier to quality reduction which is what fundamentally tad about and we saw you know back in january of just a 155 individuals in the world owns the same amount of wealth of the bottom half of humanity thats people who own the same amount of wealth as 3500000000 people now that was well coached at 19 the situation has got so much worse not only has it got so much worse but governments are also needing to spend big bucks as you said to start to pay for the Health Response but also to take the economic response and the stimulus packages so where are they going to get this money or what and spending it on as you said and i think maybe the main issues that were looking at. Reducing inequality and Poverty Reduction here. Need to be invested in Public Universal Health Care System medicine education as morris talked about to chile now as we know people are really becoming very vulnerable in the job market and theyre going to need that sustains the court that were not going to see when the phone system for example comes to an end in the autumn we need long term gain social Protection Systems to get the safety net when people fall into unemployment and more. Loss of money and he said it does seem like the perfect answer to governments needing a lot of money especially at the moment but more is that as aaron said i mean its its highly unlikely isnt it the everyones going to be on board with this were talking about 83. 00 millionaires writing this letter when there are millions of millionaires in this in the world whats the feeling that you get from rich people is it generally accepted that people should be taxed more. I think most people agree that we need to do something most rich people are people who have businesses that sell things to other people a few extract minerals from the air and they dont care about where everyone else their community is doing but most people become wealthy by having some kind of business that depends on everyone in their community having enough money to participate you know as ford said we need to pay his workers enough money they can afford to buy cars and we need everyone to think that way and i think most forward thinking long term thinking people understand that i mean this is look at what were talking about have because taxes already exist they for wealthy people i mean they increase as you know income increases were looking at 37 percent in the u. S. 45 percent in the u. K. And many would feel thats enough here in the United States we made some changes to 2 or 3 years ago and then tax or foreign power and wealthy people investors like me have much lower tax rates than people who actually work for a living we need to have rich people get their income from investing pay the same tax rates of people have to work for a living and thats crazy isnt it i know that people who work for a living pay more tax than people who get their money through nonearnings absolutely because it is quote from Warren Buffett who says that he pays more tax than his secretary and writes i think hes going back to your previous point its great that we have these 83 members of the super rich who are keen to pay taxes and pay taxes now that real change never happened because they are willing to give up that because people have demanded it so we dont need to wait for a situation where 1000000 that are going to pay more taxes you dont know most people we have to be demanding this and if you see how this system is polling across the political spectrum it really gives gaining momentum some of the same people across that in last last inspection coming out. Support of greater taxes on well we saw the conservative Party Last Week which is a star local party that has been against taxes on well poll its members teach on you know well taxes to get a feel of what their what their appetite is almost so we are seeing a march and think its fantastic millionaires have come out and said they want the tax mark i think that helped convince them in power that it needs to happen but its just one piece of the puzzle here we cannot wait for all millionaires. And huge gaps in government revenues and money spent so it has to happen theres a real urgency i mean thats such an important point isnt it aaron because greater taxes generally tends not to be a political winner especially if youre a Republican Party as weve got in the u. S. Or the conservatives as weve got in the u. K. I mean we do this and sometimes you got the chance to review in the Capital Gains tax in the u. K. Do you think that we might see more taxes on unearned income in the u. K. In the coming weeks when he reveals what hes going to do for. I mean i think the reason for their view is surely a recognition that has been because of growing over time that the Current System is really working the taxing capital were taxing wealth and work of my own actually with andy summers from the odyssey shows that this Warren Buffett anecdote that he pays less tax than center is actually kind of true in a substantial sense among a Large Population of relatively well off people so if you look at people who have income plus Capital Gains of about 10000000. 00 pounds a quarter of them pay less tax than someone whos any 13000. 00 pounds not kind of silly copyright nobody thinks that seems like a reasonable structure for a tax system and so i think often this is sort of the idea that we look at the headline rate and say oh well you know high end people who have high incomes should be paying 45 percent because thats what the headline rate is already pointed out by maurice there are people who have money that come from investment have access to different rates in the u. K. Those rates are lower tax rates are dividends even lower rates for Capital Gains and even lower rates if its Capital Gains on businesses that youre running and so that means that people have access to these much lower rates and thats even before you think about the various other deductions and release that are available and so you have means that we really do need to think about the way the capital is tax paying thats thats kind of the chances that a bit in the last budget where he would use the availability of a particular releases with entrepreneurs really which is a bit nice because it didnt matter to most people but for the people who are making use of it it was alarming to get up to 10000000 pounds out to 10 percent it was a very very low rate to people who were getting that kind of money so i mean theres already been a bit of a recognition that not system wasnt working and i think a review of Capital Gains going to speak to this idea that a movie needs from that kind of source ok but will it be enough because when theres talk of labor parties so called super tax its often followed with people saying well well just have to leave the country if that happens if labor get 7. I mean this is a couple of different points so one is kind of what you think the headline tax rates should be and the point were making is that a lot of people arent paying a lot of people with high incomes or high incomes plus gains on paying headline rate insert actually changing with that top rate is actually only affecting a resume small portion of people even among the rich because many of them are using other kinds of release inductions to get lower rates were hoping it comes out of the. Talks of the rates on headline income tax rate thats the 1st thing the 2nd is in terms of tax design i mean if you look at say the u. S. U. S. Design of a tax system is one that tax its citizens globally wherever they have been so im not necessarily advocating the u. K. Asked how about some kind of way but certainly there are ways to think about designing a tax system that accounts for where people are making their money where they are living where they are kind of going about their business to count these different kind of aspects marceau is a given to say that the Current Administration in the white house is pretty hostile to this idea well yes current president of the United States is a Real Estate Investor and he honestly believes that Real Estate Investing is the bedrock of western civilization and those people must not pay any tax at all but most people in america believe and i think well find out in november that thats not the case but thats also in saying isnt it because looking at the candidates for the democrats we had Bernie Sanders somewhere and by talking about a wealth tax whats to biden proposing i think not sure what were going to do and it depends on whos in the United States senate and the house representatives but i think theyre going to find a major change from the what we saw the end of 2017 with the with the massive changes then that reduced taxes for the rich and raise taxes for everyone else i mean some have all games havent they that the tax a wealth tax would be unconstitutional is there any argument that that. Well i think that there is different kinds of taxes that most americans already pay a wealth tax because they pay property taxes on their own real estate where they live so i think its only fair that rich investors also pay a wealth tax that most middle class people already. But thats just one more question to you before we bring in our guest again i mean its not the 1st time that youve done this is it if you push for more progressive tax system in the past do you feel that theres a theres an audience for this that it is really going to get anywhere well sure some of the ideas we had that were considered crazy left wing nutcase ideas 5 or 10 years ago most president ial candidates the democratic side were talking about this to this year so yes weve moved the needle a long ways and weve made a lot of progress towards making the tax system more progressive and. The millionaires from beyond to say in the lesson that the solution is not just in donating to charities and yet weve had hugely significant donations from very wealthy people contributing to coronavirus vaccines to coronavirus for coverage why is it not the solution why is that not enough because we need a solution a sustainable undemocratic mccowns or the National Level for countries you know around the world so we cant have countries relying on the use specific interests of rich land or great that might be you know fighting specific areas of interest that they have but its not a long term Sustainable Way to be able to ensure poverty eradication at National Level thats what governments of all governments have that to be able to provide Vital Services for their people to be able to ensure that i think we dont go hungry and we have to be accountable for that so that people and taxation expenditure on all means bunch of that will. You know fundamental pop a social contract about democracy if i could just make one point related to your questions tomorrow i think you know its important for us to remember that there is a strong historical precedent here so in the rest of the Great Depression in europe and us after the 2nd world war taxes on the rich were increased substantially i think of the Great Depression the us they went up to 75 percent talk to tax lives here in europe as well while they went up need to 9090 percent of parents so we do have historical precedent you know we can also see the increase in taxes on the rich so those points did have significant and enormous benefits on you know were just going to close in principle that time when its just the 1980s that we have seen a reduction in those top. Tax that both ok i remember at the g 20 finance ministers meeting this way this weekend do you think this is going to be on the agenda or is there a significant momentum have i mean i think one dimension talks that we havent really focused on so far but probably will be on their agenda is the schools focus on multinationals so weve seen this kind of push by the o. E. C. D. Initially kind of our collective approach to think you know how you talk to multinationals because theres always this worry about i mean we are sort of this week the European Commission do you get rejected by the European Court of justice that. The European Commission had said that apple had to pay tax on c. J. Now said that that touch should be repaid back to apple that was a quote and the reason for that was basically it was a tax due or activity was taking place on the sales that i was making elsewhere as it was an irish talks other countries in europe whats a tax is perfect given that were going through and so because of the way the system is kind of set up the c. J. Said well under the Current System unfortunately we cant really allow you to talk to him. But i think the highlight was the system is one is not really working so i think theres been this push through every city from the things the u. S. Has said that the now theyre not really willing to cooperate with that and so france thought about introducing Additional Services tax as opposed to the u. K. Government is planning to bring us that your services tax dollars not clear you know well see whether it actually kind of fully comes into force and stays in place but i think its clearly part of the agenda to think how you talk to the kind of big multinationals better because theres a lot of money being made that its not there its being taxed anyway the International Tax treaties were originally set up to try to avoid double taxation they werent set up to make sure there was no taxation in any location and thats usually what were getting for some multinationals and i think some some sort of new set up that is needed and its going to require International Cooperation if its going to be done effectively on the was the only option will be unilateral moves by countries in a way that will lead to some other. Issues of double taxation and the kind of Competitive Pressures in a way thats not really what were designing a system for were trying to make sure everyone is paying taxes somewhat and in the legitimate way and regulating individuals is easier than is isnt regulates multinationals. Its somewhat easier to think about where individuals have based on what theyre doing there are still a lot of issues that one is i mean this kind of question of where people tax residents and people could still spend a lot on for example in the u. K. That tended to be tax resident somewhere else because they spend enough nights in another country or not in the u. K. Because that is want to see the other issues that of course among the wealthiest setting up trusts as a way of moving wealth into a form where theres no kind of getting some of the benefits of it without technically having control over and therefore that does make it harder for the talks and talks and there are things one could do about that but it would multinationals that much more complicated because it really is you know its true that lots of the work apple does the Technology Work is really based in Silicon Valley and so so amount of the profit really is due to the top and even oneself a place in other countries obviously some of the one who is also producing the actual objects for example and those things that are then being sold presumably some talks with some high level of tax should be actually doing them and the Current System doesnt require them to pay it well thats just the underground system is of the Current System is broken and isnt taking into account the way that the kind of money here are into being structured so more a small percentage of your income would you be willing to give away to governments but i think my current tax rate is below 20 percent it should be higher its not a matter of me being willing i think its a matter of all the people through their voting through their elected representatives making a decision is binding on everyone if so it doesnt matter what youre willing to give we have to decide as voters and elect representatives to decide how much taxes everyone will say and everyone should pay a percentage based on their income or on their well one of the other or both and where would you most like the money to go where do you see the greatest inequalities existing in america i think we need to have more taxes on the wealthy people so that we can have. The programs they help the most unfortunate among us be able to afford their basic lives whether its Unemployment Insurance or all the education for the young people in the poorer parts of our country their neighbors them to become wealthy too we need to make their lives more even to give other people the opportunities that i had frankly when i was growing up. Much of the Coronavirus Impact is felt in developing countries emerging economies. How might a tax on millionaires has benefit them because of course this group of men as for humanity 71. 00 of them are from america and a handful of others are from europe and canada one from new zealand none of them are from india china brazil where there are significant number of 1000000 as. Yeah quite so were hoping that this Gains Momentum and that millionaires from across the world. Become kid to come on board because as you kind of know right now were seeing poverty concentrated in middle Income Countries and those are countries where we have huge disparities of wealth so in many of the Income Countries we have large amounts of millionaire who are not being tapped at nearly high enough rate in order for the government to be able to implement policies that would reduce poverty so we were very much see this initiative in this need for a tax on wealth and income of the richest. Being it being a need across countries so cross developed and developing countries and we very much hope. To encourage millionaires from middle Income Countries to come forward and commit to pushing by governments in this direction as well ok aaron just last question to you in the minute we have left how far would a wealth tax go into funding a coded 1000. 00 economic recovery i mean basically depends on where you want to start or at one end you get kind of a swift spiral wealth tax which starts a 100000. 00 euros which is not i think what anyone would think of is kind of the super wealthy and its rather we slot you could the other and how something more that looks more like what Bernie Sanders or D Elizabeth Warren which is really focused on the bill in it and either of those systems can be ways to bring home a substantial amount of money we know that wealth has many many multiples of income and so i mean in the u. K. Its tubes i grew up wealth is 6 times on you income so a tax on wealth can bring in much more money in principle if you design it to do that ok absolutely fans have to find the fascinating discussion many thanks for joining us and morris good luck to you with your mission there millionaires for humanity. Thank you very much to all our guests morris paul our own advice and our and i thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website thats aljazeera dot com and devoted to go to our Facebook Page thats facebook dot com for slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter at a. J. Inside story from me laura and the whole team here its wife and. The politics of division pushed india into the grip of a historical reckoning i am afraid to be closing in on the minorities. Great but where do these ideas come from tragedy comedy try to send it. To school happy families want to join me on distance here on the final part of my journey when i want to become a target of the hindu fast policy in search of india saw an aljazeera which is the relationship between culture religion and a deeply divided city everything here is overshadowed by politics even the most basic of things food in 2008 aljazeera traveled to jerusalem to see a food could cross deep lines of division jewish history in it together and we cook together we can show the people that they love this week. Rewind street food jerusalem on aljazeera. The health of humanity is at stake a Global Pandemic requires a global response. W. H. O. Is the guardian of Global Health delivering lifesaving tools School Supplies and training to help the worlds most found mobile people uniting across borders to speed up the development of test treatments and of that. 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