Comply. Its going to have the phones of journalists and activists but these writing n. S. A. Has just won a legal battle to stop selling its products to some government so whos responsible when Surveillance Technology is misused this is its own story. Hello and welcome to the program im wrong cone activists journalists even the worlds richest man all said to have been hacked by spyware developed by the Israeli Company called the end group but the firm insists its products are only sold to authorize Government Agencies to fight terrorism and crime. Rights group Amnesty International says one of its researches was also targeted it sued n. S. O. To revoke as export license from the Israeli Defense ministry after 6 months of hearings behind closed doors a court in tel aviv dismissed the case the judge concluded the ministry was thorough and meticulous in granting the license which means the company is now free to continue selling its products abroad misty. Or depletion or. Belong to the management of steve israel did not provide. Any evidence even regarding the identity of such a person that his phone was intercepted. So we dont know even that it really happened. Amnesty international is disappointed yes but not surprised by the courts ruling its been a longstanding tradition for the israeli courts to be a rubber stamp for the Israeli Ministry of defense their impunity for Israeli Companies that are accomplices for violation of human rights and murderous regimes we are. We are hopeful that we will be able to convince people to join our call for an amendment in the israeli law that will allow us to to prevent such such situations in the future and so he faces a number of allegations that its technology is being used to spy on civilians facebook is suing the phone accusing it of hacking the accounts of more than 1400 watts uses the small phones of journalists dissidents human rights activists are amongst them citizens have Research Firm at the university of toronto as linked n. S. A. Has pegasus spyware to political surveillance in 6 countries including mexico and the u. A. E. A saudi activist accuses n. S. O. Providing the kingdom with software to monitor his phone conversations with the late journalist Jamal Khashoggi and a u. N. Report suggests the n. S. A. Spy ware may have been used by the Saudi Crown Prince to hack the phone of amazon c. E. O. Jeff bezos. Lets bring in our guests and skip day in the netherlands that no longer its assistant professor at the university of 20th in west jerusalem i mean stein a Political Writer and in london and michelle st a professor of Computer Science at the university of sari a welcome to you all now we did reach out to n. S. A. And Amnesty International but they werent able to join the program but i do want to begin our discussion in west recently with stein. You have on the one hand n. S. O. Saying well actually the international didnt give us an author evidence and so the court made the right decision then you have Amnesty International saying quite clearly that actually the Israeli High Court is simply a rubber stamp for the ministry of defense and they were always going to make that decision now it must be interesting for you as a journalist in. Covering all of this because it is journalists that have been allegedly targeted by an israeli spy with so you know that must be of concern to you right. Ah the story dunno division you said its very interesting because each company had as you say who are exports are inside Israel Security issues need to get at the permission of the Defense Ministry so this is a bigger. Question exactly as does the Defense Ministry exactly know what is going on with an isaf is a result telling the whole story to be found. There parkin are right now here is what i need to say to you to tell you we didnt find any outlets a case as our anise all using you here sort of a question of whats going on outside also what we each day and even tonight and where you having that andersons doctor was allegedly found in the south of the handle because a lab and a senior counsel medical attention and it claims brain got a man who did it sight so i had a company and a source says listen we are not doing anything bad when you ask him as a journalist we are selling stock were up and to do to fight crime to find a bad guy but what were. Learning each day and each day with the stories of our claim that absolutely spot on was used or against opposition. Figures so it really does is a big part as a journalist when you ask them they say listen this is a regular common were not saying to the bad guys but each day you have the stories dont its a very difficult situation right now and of course theres and the court said we do not have you do or we do not have to prove that and the store is allowing this our attitude people use it against people so it is the only difficult story really to to to cover the journalists and there is a problem a meter reader that other car reads are maybe being spied on and i have agreed not once talk with your. And you start to watch are a problem but in the whole this is a very difficult story to cover because you have to really do signs after story haneke reason just why they dont crash it is not every day that the show never clash together lets bring in nischelle. Street in london here nischelle we make the software so we sell the software it says an a so we give it to the governments what they do after that not up to us its up to the governments but its not as simple as that is it because there is after cell service to use a consumer there is people who from n. S. O. Will be helping those governments to use the software its not as simple as we give it to the governments and then they what they do is up to the chile. Well theres theres what you say but theres also the issue of. Work should really be that fun facility of Technology Firms when the technology that that thing could potentially be used for next area purposes and at some point i think you know the Technology Firms need to or not to their full or ones ability. And then to say ok here is where we are crossing a certain line of ethics and maybe we shouldnt be selling the American Government start a certain institutions which might then go and misuse the powerful after which theyre looking so there though that argument to be made as well but on the other hand once again humor after suffering as far as after whether its in our. Io and on their i phone could be barred by a candidate which they can then use to collaborate with our communicate with other better it so would you hold apple that. Far for the use of their software for a potentially killing millions of people or hundreds of people or for them but people whatever the case may be so there is theres a great line and not exactly sure where the line is bigger than many readers have been asking me and. Well no longer it is an interesting argument is that its not software that spies on people its people to spy on people. All right well its unfortunately not so easy to divide the 2 you in the same way that you can imagine talking about someone. With a gun as opposed to without a gun and no idea is that the gun itself plays a role in shaping situation we can say the same here about surveillance tools the not simply instruments to be used by good people or bad people who simply having possessing the tool itself is going to help shape how we think of the situation in the same way that we say you know to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail some of the surveillance tool everything looks like someone who should be spied on for the interest of the state or for the interest of the private owner and this is the kind of thing as the previous commentator stated it has to be held in responsibility with the developer of the device and its not enough to say we did everything ethical on our part then we sold it and its up to the ethics of the of the user and it has to be built in and it has to be ethics by design. Style and in west ruislip ive been to. Israel on many occasions on many many reporting trips most of the time when i wind up at the Government Press office i have a conversation that involves israels tech sector why do International Journalists not cover israels tech sector more than we do and thats often the conversation that we have israel is quite rightly proud of its text is this a case that that the Israeli High Court is simply gone this is too big for us to touch there may have been wrongdoing here but the tech sector is too important for israel. I dont think its an issue that the courts had its too big to touch because like i like you said before is a question about when her other people. There is not yet broken evidence to charge it and so her explicitly you know gave guidance how to spy on political figures or how to spying against a human rights activist so we have record of them sending their women but we dont have a record of them really our helping in tracking these guys or journalist or people so this is at this point i think that the court said we cannot are anything about it because even a defense minister you know hasnt got any opinion or has got any evidence that you can show us and tell us something there is going wrong and right now and its always very scarred ill continue to work as not only door isnt any i really imitation it is in it there are many and theres a lot i need to say you know and its always not only really company when you talk about it. Sounds equipment i mean sometimes you have you know and a lot of other questions about as sometimes Many Companies that are derived about illegitimacy or. How how varies the equipment that these companies are being sells that its being your and out all my mils our best role thats not only going to hurt countries and how train our military and so on military as under is not you know not fighting a real real decent war stories that does a lot of moral issues about some of our Israeli Tech Company as the former military guys who go there broad but the court i think you know the better problem has aided in how the evidence that court. May have decided lets that we have you arrange like we do already sometimes go on to its. Do you know some little sometimes ill start to. Explore outside. But i mean lets be absolutely clear about this when youre selling Sensitive Software such as this the n. S. A. Needs if not clear export license but it certainly needs an agreement from the ministry of defense and from the government this is just diplomacy that all countries use when theyre selling whether its arms or Sensitive Information to a 3rd country there has to be an approval so there would have been approval from the government of israel to the government of saudi arabia to for them to purchase this piece of equipment theres a lot of outreach as we know between the Israeli Government and the saudis the Israeli Government trying to reach out to the sunni states in particular to try and bring them in so there is some collusion here we can say that quite definitively. Were talking about you know the export of israel to the ball. Now ball trying to be something you really that isnt allowed to be talked about really clear usually we do go on at according to a foreign source and as in i mean to National Media out there is really media is really very limited in how much it can report about it but there are times and i think again lets say an opening to foreign sources you government and deals like this between any company and. Anything that lets you as well as a lot has an interest to do these kinds of deals because the dialogue makes stronger the ties between the country. Much will struggle between and then again become rain when you come to there and asked us this and you know it isnt man hes been used against and youre right it could be its again ill be saying again and declaring we all over again we do not sell do you try not to 1st of all by the way they say were not talking about what we sell. Is what we do but the 2nd phase is also even if you want to tell you we are telling you at all all our need to fight general and crime and how to think so again thats just like you i dont think i dont think you would ask is very operational even how interested it started Running Companies out and were going to outlaw all arab countries yes they have interests because it does make that dynamic much more stronger its kind of a shadow industry its not under the table. In london how much of this is kind of proprietary technology i mean hell if you managed if you managed to get hold of one of these phones that had a piece of this software in it could you definitively say this came from n. S. A. This came from is it easily truck a bill or are we talking a very murky world. So if you got a form you would look for a signature or are the kinds of stock well let you have seen before. Which had certain capabilities. And it my to be the case that. Particular form you could say here is a piece of software that really normal has a concert being sold to other people and go seen with their i dont want that perhaps have been captured in the field. Which was very similar and that those i dont definitely that those are the reforms and i still suffer in them and you could you could potentially link them together. But equally you know there are there are you know there are more have a kid could come in and out something they didnt regain some of the same functionality as and so which might make it a little bit difficult. But somewhere in itself there are a number of signatures that you can look for. So there is a very good chance that if you had the right kind of security expert looking at it. That might be able to point to enhance or any particular and station. Goal and no longer in the netherlands it he makes a very interesting point is that the genie is out the box once the software is out there its not just the governments that you know they were to use that actually could be able to clone it hackers could be able to use it you know how much does that worry you. Yeah i think this is the kind of thing we need to be on alert about and d why we need to ask not about how to use these technologies properly but whether they should be developed in the 1st place and you can imagine the response is always going to be well if we dont make it someone else will so theres always the arms race way of thinking about this but at the same time you know this will come back to bite you at some point so when you put these things on the market theres nothing stopping it from being used against you. So again this creates not just about Surveillance Technology in a vacuum but about a whole system. Of cyber warfare and we need to be aware and again as i was saying earlier how this not only shapes how the users think about the technology but also about how the people like journalists like politicians what is called the Chilling Effect rights of the very fact that these things could be used against you when there are not you know any proof of it could still be enough to make you paranoid to make you you know not want to report certain things not only discussed for example this narry case so again we have to be aware of how this these kinds of technologies how these kinds of systems really change the environment in a way sort of similar to biological or Chemical Warfare and theres a reason that was banned precisely because of its effect outside of the battlefield on the entire environment. I mean thats an interesting point isnt it people are afraid that their phones are being monitored if they told us and subjects particularly in more we say tighter regimes. However in israel you have a free press in israel there is debate but like you said you said earlier people simply arent talking about this particular subject whys that. This is something again we you know you can talk about the. Right to your own destroy but i think you know again the stories i tell you his really didnt find some kind of story regarding the stock well i mean this is probably some kind of again maybe the arab starching is that you cannot find stories youre about and its all you do know about the stories that our accountant brought about by your news but youre not there we didnt find any stories regarding annas being an actress i mean i dont i dont think you would find. This story an alibi or what have you martins progress against the Israeli Defense ministry and maybe your. Own insult that allowing this were right so i thought you know if this is the story that is covered you know very broadly and i think maybe youre being told sometimes sometimes you know we prayed maybe never own might be had about as long if it does it doesnt happen right it isnt for it we found something here in israel and theres going to continue to live just working with our rights that we were reporting lets and you were not in mexico religious and humanitarian and. In the spring youre in other countries. But i dont feel like ive been we will find really such a story as well it will stay close covering some title for a new story and talking about maybe the moral issues of even countries to work on but friends i dont think is going to change maybe youll find such a story here in israel. I want to ask all 3 of you the same question ill begin with the sastry in london is it time now for a charter a United Nations charter Digital Rights to stop things like this from being developed is it time for an International Agreement to control the way these things up the much in the same way we have arms control treaties. So they are going to check i was just to see it is back getting of our and you plane that was being done up and they are saying this might be the last plane in that is being left in range then the human eye next that and flag that plane or in an army or in a battle situation so more and more bottles are being driven by armaments that he goes on and on monday illegals and things like that more and more or less sort of more than a lot of the biological or chemical issues that that are the things that we should think about but rather the anime come into very easily into the heart of our nation the governor of alaska and on smartphones and is able to get information off of. Even trick us into believing things that we shouldnt be believing and so there are the stories of our russia but actually having influence elections and many as a country including the u. S. And the u. K. So yes the amber alert is actually going to be the next big domain but the real big challenge that people face as we move through or says more digital funkier is that in fact its not like special needs people regulate biological or chemical that because there is a laboratory there sequesters that level of expertise a sick way but how is that theyre going to that they get a teenager who might be sitting in their parents basement and coming up with the next new big every weapon its not easy im sorry thats how we are running out of time and i do want to get to the other guests as well in a 2nd day what do you think do we need a charter of human rights charter Digital Rights. Yeah i think we need to stop thinking of privacy as something that we treat our with security and instead think of privacy as something intrinsic to what it means to be human and that is the grounds for developing not just human rights legislation but really and education a Global Education and what it really means to engage in this kind of cyber warfare and only high stein what are your thoughts i think we need something that is about much what i was going i think is going to be very hard because each country you have if you do the ascent of the little one are going to shadow. Me are you know and youre all hackers and it is going to be even if you do a separate box of rules about privacy about tracking this is going to be very hard to implement and the damage it all to do but its going to be very are to implement take care that seems like it doesnt happen even in the state. I want to thank all our guests has been a fascinating discussion no longer i mean i stein and this are the sastry and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website aljazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our Facebook Page at facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are out a day inside story for me iran current and the entire team here in doha by for now. I. In the next episode of techno the team travels to the heart of the amazon. Where we are now should be reinforced to investigate illegal gold mining mercury has a very unique characteristic of finding the goal for a miner its almost like magic and the technology being used to expose its devastating impact and so what we end up doing is imaging a force in very high fidelity streams techno on all jersey or a fossil. The old jews there are we as is the government not taking the necessary action to really address some of the structural issues we listen i still think that travel is the safest mode of travel and to spend that we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on the phone to 0. Investigating the use and abuse of power across the globe on our syria. This is aljazeera. Hello im rob matheson this is the news our live from doha coming up in the next 60 minutes a legal victory for qatar the International Court of justice rules in its favor in a case involving 4 arab nations that have blocked qatari planes from using their airspace